I’m just trying to decide how annoyed I should be (if at all) regarding what a customer is putting me through.
Here’s the story:
I committed to do some painting at a rental that my customer is moving into. I asked for, and received 1/3 deposit on the day that I began. I completed 4/5 of the job, but was unable to complete the last 1/5 because the room wasn’t ready. (They had agreed to remove the wallpaper and have the room paint-ready, but that hasn’t happened yet because the wallpaper removal wasn’t as easy as they thought it would be).
When I completed all of the work that I could, I called my customer and asked about final payment. She knew that there was work remaining and so I told her that I would come back when the room was ready. I said that In the meantime I would appreciate payment, but we could deduct for the unfinished work. I didn’t specify an amount, but she knew it was only a small portion remaining.
She called me today to tell me that the next 1/3 payment is in the mail and that the final 1/3 would be paid upon completion. I didn’t argue or complain because the proposal never specified a payment schedule (I’ve never needed to), but I don’t think her decision is fair even if she is within her legal rights. There really isn’t much that I could say anyway, she’s holding all the marbles.
I won’t work for her again unless she pays in full before I begin. And even then I may not. I squeezed her into my schedule when I didn’t really need more work, I gave her a really good price because she told me her budget was very limited due to a divorce-in-progress, I had to call 3 times to get the paint colors (and finally got them 10:00 pm the day before I began) and I added a few extras as she asked about them and some that she didn’t. And to show her appreciation, she’s withholding the final 1/3 until I can complete the final 1/5. Legal? Yes, but fair? I don’t think so.
Replies
>I didn't specify an amount
And yet you're angry with her because she estimated 33% when you thought it should be 47%. That's what's annoying you?
I don't think you should be at all annoyed.
I also am guessing that what you think is 20% remaining, she thinks is 1/3 remaining. I'm guessing she also thinks she was being a good client when she guessed at this.
The whole thing strikes me as, "I have a number in my head, and I'm not gonna tell you what it is, but if you don't guess it, I'm gonna be mad at you." Geez, if you have a number in mind, say it and save everyone the aggravation.
###
Which begs the question...what's .1 + 30% + 2/10?
Never mind...old joke.
"I have a number in my head, and I'm not gonna tell you what it is, but if you don't guess it, I'm gonna be mad at you."
That reminds me exactly of DW. There has been some discusion about ... um ... nighttime bedroom activities, and she's holding out. "If you loved me maybe we could do it" Me: You know I love you. Her: You never say it. Me: I love you. Her: But you have to REALLY love me to mean it. Me: Ok, I REALLY mean it. Her: That's not good enough, maybe one day you'll understand what I mean."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Mebbe if your nickname wasn't "fast"Eddie.I'm kidding . . . . . really . . . .
frontier , You are a mean person ,
rofl ,,,,,,,,,
dusty
I bet you are really burning! There is just no gratitude!
I'm not sure that you can demand full payment for the job not completed, tho. Even if someone else is at fault for not finishing the work to fit your busy schedule.
Grab the other 1/3, and finish the job. Then you will get the rest of the money.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
I agree Don, you need to dictate the terms, not leave it up to the client.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"I didn't argue or complain because the proposal never specified a payment schedule (I've never needed to)"
You now officially "need to"
The problem is that the amount to be withheld was not agreed upon.She thought 1/3 and you thought 1/5. It sounds more like a misunderstanding than a malicious attempt to stiff you. I would never advise anyone to pay 100% complete up front before the job started.
You have worked up too big of an anger over too small of a problem
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You have worked up too big of an anger over too small of a problem
I like the succinctness of your reply. You're right, of course, and it seems to be an overwhelming consensus. Thanks to everyone for helping me to keep this in perspective.
I think part of my "problem" is that I have been spoiled by some of the best customers any contractor could ask for. Most of my customers have been very reasonable in their expectations, trusting, very accommodating and I haven't yet had any problems getting paid upon completion. From what I hear, I may be the exception.
I try very hard to walk away from every job leaving thrilled customers in my wake and I've been surprisingly effective at it. Even this customer, for all of her annoying quirks, is pleased with my work and would recommend me to others.
So, I'm fine. Time to move on to the next challenge.
-Don
" pleased with my work and would recommend me to others."so don't destroy that relationship over the timing of a few bucks.
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Edited 7/17/2007 7:31 am ET by jocobe
I've helped numerous people by doing something for them for little or no fee. I'm talking about things like fixing a leaky faucet, or a toilet that won't stop running, or replacing a light fixture. Things that take an hour or two.I really don't recommend doing this.Those people then tell other people "I know a guy who will do the work at a really cheap price"You end up getting that as your reputation.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
But then again, the job isn't completed, so it's a bit early to speculate. In hindsight, it would have been a good idea to tell the client that you estimate that the job is now 80% complete, and you'd like 47% payment, if that's what you wanted.
I read an article in Inc. magazine 10 years or so ago. In it the author (Norm Brodsky) pointed out a saying that I have taught my son and employees and I think it fits this situation. "Don't ask, don't get". You didn't ask specifically for what you wanted and you didn't get it. When you leave it open for interpretation you get exactly that. She probably didn't know what to pay you and someone at the office said "just pay him another third till he's done since he didn't specify an amount". And that is what you got. Your fault, not hers. DanT
Don,
You asked for 1/3rd as a first payment, then asked for a second payment with the understanding that there would be a third payment on completion. When you asked for the second payment you left the amount up to the client. Client sent you her logical interpretation of what the second payment should be, another 1/3rd.
I'm with the client on this one. You let her negotiate the agreement, gave in easily when she asked for small extras, didn't stipulate anything about additional fees for having to come back if the wallpaper wasn't removed on time.
I'd take a lesson from this one, if I were you.
I used to be too easy going during negotiations and afterwards, like you. I always thought I was being friendly and agreeable, giving away time and skilled work. Later I could look back and see that often I was being played by a clever person.
Some of these people were casual friends who didn't see any ethical problem in playing me during a business negotiation. Of course I would beg to differ but maybe I'm wrong.
When a friend calls and asks for a favor, then proceeds to use that as a lever to gain an advantage in a business negotiation, I'd say they should acknowledge that they owe a favor in return, without being asked. If they don't make that acknowledgement during the negotiation, I'd call them on it before agreeing to extend them any extra breaks.
Bottom line, don't assume anything. In particular, don't assume that you'll be able to collect on a favor that you extended someone, unless you made that clear during the negotiation. Don't wait until after the job, when you're picking up your final check, to say, "you owe me one". It doesn't usually carry any weight at that point.
It's always a minor dilemma, trying to reach respectful verbal agreements with first time clients, without getting so specific that it offends the other person. That's why having your own standard agreement is always a good idea.
Best wishes, Peter
As a client who has been burned by contractors not showing up, I simpathize with your client.
No doubt your word is excellent, but there are unfortunately a few people out there who leave a sour taste in peoples mouth & bad news spreads faster & scares people more often than good news.
My drywall contractor specified a payment schedule, leaving 10% for the last coat of spackle. I guess he decided it wasn't worth showing up for the last $750 I owed him when he had a sweet commercial gig lined up.
BTW, I had two separate references for this guy (both positive - one I was actually able to go see), didn't mean squat in the end though.
They were the messiest subs I've ever hired as well. I had to go digging for two outlet boxes & one light switch - I know there's no chance in hell of him showing up to patch up the holes from when they had to be dug out - not to mention two that the they had cut to big.
Edited 7/17/2007 8:02 am ET by Soultrain
how much money we talking here between what shes paying vs what you feel is due ?
why not just ask for the difference between what you think your owed at his point and what shes paying
explain it to her like you have here
No reason to be mad unless she wont pay the difference
When can you get back there to finish the job? Has your client (and she is STILL your client) made any progress on getting that room stripped so you can paint? Have you made that phone call to ask that question?
I guess it would be a little different hearing the contractor leaving the phone message that says, "When can I get back there to finish?"
I'd even joke about that with the client. "Usually, it's the painter that says, 'I'll be back on Monday', and you have to ask, 'Which Monday?' Now I'm asking you, 'When can I get back there to finish!' "
Don't chase her for payment. Chase her to finish the work.
tony b.
I don't believe there is anything to be annoyed about. It sound like she is doing what a responsible home owner should do. You asked for a deposit be for you started - you got it. You asked for an other installment - you got it. The customer doesn't want to pay you in full because the job isn't done. That sound fair to me. The only onnoying thing might be that she isn't getting the room paint ready fast enough.
Look at it this way. If the remainder of the job is so small, you might not be inclinded to try too hard getting back there to finish. It might be too easy to take that bigger better paying job over hers. This way there is a little more insentive to push her to finish and for you to get in there.
Here's an idea. Offer to prep the room for her at a reduced rate. I am sure you could prep the room in a fraction of the time it would take her to do it. Make a couple more bucks and it will allow you to finish and get paid sooner.
Dave
Here's an update for anyone who might've taken an interest in me getting too worked up over a minor issue.
I haven't received the check that was supposedly in the mail 4 days ago. Yup, it's another "the check's in the mail" line.
Part of the reason that I got too worked up about this thing had to do with a gut reaction based on the interaction so far with this customer. I can't be specific about it, but I felt like I was being played (like not getting the colors until 10:00 the night before I start the job and not knowing how I'm getting into the house and not knowing if I'll get my deposit when I start because no one is going to be there to meet me). I wasn't sure I was being played, maybe I was just being too sensitive. Now I'm sure, or at least fairly sure. It's pretty unusual for mail to get lost.
What will I do? I'll give it a few more days and call her. We have already set a date for the last part of the job. If she offers the final 2/3 on that day, I'll accept it.
"It's pretty unusual for mail to get lost."Maybe, but I've had checks take from 14 to seventeen days to come through in the mail. Some from me and some to me
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I would wait until Tuesday and just call her and ask in a non-threating manner. Just tell her you're giving a courtesy call to see if she had already sent out the check or if you could pick it up. If you are able to pick it up give her an invoice showing the payments already received, current payment due, and future balance. While you speaking with her, confirm the date and any necessary details for the final part of the job and remind her that you want to complete the job and ensure she's happy.Do you have a signed contract? If so, check what you have to do to lien if you don't receive payment.At this point I wouldn't get too worked up, just keep in contact with her and don't let her forget about what you agreed upon.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Mail does get lost. The problem I've seen most is the carrier dropping it. Several months ago, one of my neighbors brought me several pieces of mail I'd sent back in Jan. They'd found it under a bush when they started their spring yard cleaning.
http://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
We have already set a date for the last part of the job. If she offers the final 2/3 on that day, I'll accept it.are you still saying you want to be paid in full before finishing the job, before punch list. around here you dont get paid in full till ten days after punch list.
are you still saying you want to be paid in full before finishing the job, before punch list. around here you dont get paid in full till ten days after punch list.
No, I meant to imply that my expectations are getting lower and that I would accept the final 2/3 AFTER finishing the last small part of the job.
It's a paint job, so I'm not sure how a punch list factors into it. I've never done a punch list so I'd be happy to hear what others do in this regard.
>>I meant to imply that my expectations are getting lower and that I would accept the final 2/3 AFTER finishing the last small part of the job.Don't do that. Explain to the customer that you never received the 2nd payment...and you cannot complete any further work until you do (company policy). I'd ask for the second CASH payment BEFORE finishing the job--perhaps you might offer to split the fee of the stop-payment on the 'mailed check'.. And request a cash payment (the balance) upon completion..No harm, no foul..."trust" issues go away...everyone is happy.Btw, unless you actually "cash" the check at the issuing bank, you may not know for a whole week that the check was bad, or that payment had been stopped. I learned this the hard way. I now cash large checks--especially start checks--and deposit the cash in my account. An issuing bank must give you cash for ANY size personal check. You will need an ID, and sometimes a thumb print. But they'll have to show you the money. And give it to you in an envelope. Just like it used to be, and it ought to be.
An issuing bank must give you cash for ANY size personal check. You will need an ID, and sometimes a thumb print. But they'll have to show you the money. And give it to you in an envelope. Just like it used to be, and it ought to be.
Really? I've taken customer checks to the issuing banks only to be told that they don't cash checks unless you have an account there. I'm sure there are some banks that will, but I haven't found one yet.
But I do agree that it ought to be that way.
I took my accounts from a bank/CU that charged non account holders to cash my checks.If some bank told me they would not honor their customers check to me, I would go back to the customer and tell them to make it right.It used to be that a check was a promissory note from the writer and the bank was to act as his agent in honoring that note.SamT
Bob, what say you about this? A bank refusing to pay a customers check.
Are checks still promissary notes? Are banks still customer agents?SamT
Why that's just preposterous, Don.. A bank which issues a check, by definition, must make the payment to the person named on the line "PAY TO THE ORDER OF". Otherwise both the check and the issuing bank are frauds. The only hitch is, as I said, if a check is made out in your business name, you will need to deposit it in a business account.Personal checks are payable upon demand to the payee--provided you can identify who you are; the check is confirmed to be a legal document; and the funds are available in the issuers account.. They MAY charge you a fee if you do not have an account with them, but they must ultimately show you the money..else explain to you exactly which of those three tests failed. Next time that happens to you, I'd raise holy hell and wouldn't leave until I either got my money, or the cops were called to report the fraud.
Coming to this a little late but here is my two cents, payment is in the mail for that..The last time a customer wanted to do some of the work I included it as a separate item on the quote. Usually when they see the cost they will let us do it instead of taking the time themselves. This also allows us a way out if they don't fulfill their part. Payment is clear and we can get paid for the detailed work we did or can move ahead and have them pay us for this work.Hope this all works out.Jon"There is no good answer to a stupid question"
Russian saying
That is not ethical and I don't believe it is legal.Years ago, I had my bank tell a couple of people that they could not cash my checks becausse of such a policy. I called the president of the bank and made it clear that when I write a check, it is a command to them to "PAY to the order of..." and not a polite request to pay....Never had a problem since then.They are well within their rights to refuse to cash checks drawn on a competing bank and I think that some tellers are just confused when to apply the rule.Never walk out of a bank without them cashing their own checks. Demand to see the manager and be told there is not sufficient funds stamped on the check or to be given the cash.
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Btw, unless you actually "cash" the check at the issuing bank, you may not know for a whole week that the check was bad, or that payment had been stopped. I learned this the hard way. I now cash large checks--especially start checks--and deposit the cash in my account. An issuing bank must give you cash for ANY size personal check.
A couple of comments, based on a recent experience.
There is no longer ANY check that is "safe" - including certified checks. Even weeks after the certified check has cleared, the issuing bank can "reclaim" the funds. FWIW, in my case the bank issued the certified check for an account I closed, then decided the amount was wrong and reclaimed the funds.
If one does what you suggest - get it in cash - and then deposits it in another bank, the issuing bank can probably only reclaim the funds from the depositing bank if they can find out what bank you went to. Otherwise, they would have to sue you to get the money back.
Banks have policies on how much cash they will disburse. Often it is $5000 or less. If you walk in with a $10,000 check, most banks will not give you the cash that day. They may give you some today, some tomorrow, or may have you come back when they have the cash available.
My understanding is that a Federal Reserve Bank must cash a check drawn on that bank without charging a fee. My further understanding is that savings and loans, non-FR banks, etc. can refuse to cash their checks.
No such thing as a "federal Reserve Bank". The Federal Reserve is a quasi-governmental agency. You and I cannot walk in and demand payment of a check because there is no such thing. Checks are drawn off of commercial banks. They can refuse to cash a check if it is made out to you as a Sole Proprietor or payable to a business which you are sole proprietor of. If it is made out to you personally: IE- pay to the order of John Smith, the bank MUST honor the check. They are legally allowed to charge you a fee to do it. I disagree with that, but the law allows it. They can also force you to jump through lots of hoops- not at the drive through, give me 7 forms of ID, thumbprints, etc. They can also set limits on maximum amounts. If you present a check for $10 grand they may not cash it immediately if they don't have the cash in the vault. If the check is made out to your company name which you are sole proprietor of, NO BANK is obligated to cash the check. They can REQUIRE that the check be deposited into an account reflecting the company name. What follows is my experience only:Some banks (like Bank of America- they SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!) are the worst about this. Small local banks are better about it in my experience. I only deal with my local banks. They are being gobbled up pretty quickly, but I hope there will always be one I can deal with. I do occasionally have to take checks from folks for things I sell, work I do, etc. I flat out REFUSE to take checks from people if they are written on Bank of America, BB&T, and several other larger banks. It's too much hassle to get my money. You can pay me cash or buy my goods from someone else, but I won't take those checks. I can take that stand because contracting is not my livelihood. But if someone wants to buy something I've got for sale? I'll lose the sale before I'll take a check from one of the #### banks.
No such thing as a "federal Reserve Bank". The Federal Reserve is a quasi-governmental agency. You and I cannot walk in and demand payment of a check because there is no such thing.
I may not have the terminology right. But I was told by the bank regulator that there are some banks that are part of the federal reserve system and are subject to different regulations. Usually they will have "frb" in the name, e.g. "Bank of Nowhere, frb". Usually these will also be banks that sell savings bonds and can provide coinage in treasury packaging (like the new dollar coins in the treasury rolls or bags, rather than repackaged by third parties).
There are also "federal savings banks", denoted by "fsb" usually. I'm not sure how that relates to a "federal reserve bank", but I suspect it is similar.
I'm not a banking expert, I'm just relating what I was told after the recent fiasco. I asked a lot of questions of the bank regulator as this mess was getting sorted out.
Maybe someone who is more versed on these things can offer some better insight.
A bank that has "national" in its name, or "NA" (national association) is a federally chartered bank and falls under the rules of the federal reserve. This dictates how long they can hold deposits, what level of security the safe has to be, etc.
A bank that had "community" or "state" in the name is usually not federally chartered, but rather at the state level. Slightly different rules, and not federally insured.
FSB is the current moniker for savings & loans that want to act as banks. Federally chartered."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I haven't received the check that was supposedly in the mail 4 days ago. Yup, it's another "the check's in the mail" line.
Maybe, maybe not.
A couple of months ago, I had a situation where I was calling on a customer (existing) whose check was overdue. They sent a 'replacement' check, and sure enough, the original check arrived a day after the replacement one. The original check, both dated and postmarked a full 2 weeks prior to my receiving it, had finally shown up.
On the other hand, I called on another (new) customer whose invoice was now at 45 days. She insisted that she had paid the invoice immediately, and didn't know why I hadn't received it. It wasn't until about 60 days that I got the 'replacement' check, after I sent a 'final notice', and never did receive the 'original' check.
Bottom line is, 'Trust, but verify'. Considering that this is a new customer, I'm betting with you that the customer never sent the second third. Be sure to let us know how this turns out.
Bob
This should be my last update:
First of all, I definitely did not have enough detail in my proposal. It wasn't a very big job so I wasn't as thorough as I should have been. I'll take a lesson from that.
I did receive the 2nd payment. It was post-marked 4 days AFTER she said it had been mailed. Interestingly, the 2nd payment came directly from the landlord whom I haven't met. Lost? I doubt it. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it was miscommunication. At least that puts me in the black.
Of course, I still need the 3rd payment to make the margin I expected. I finished the job yesterday without final payment. And not surprisingly, the walls weren't as ready for paint as they should have been, but my day was only 2 hours longer than I had planned so it worked out well enough. My customer assures me that the landlord will be mailing the final payment in the next day or so. I believe her.
Had I known that the landlord was paying for this paint job, I would have had them sign the proposal instead of "my customer". I really don't care who pays, but I do care who is assuming responsibility. In my mind it was my customer, but in her mind, it was the landlord. Legally, I can hold her responsible (I think) since she signed my proposal, but she would fight it every step of the way since she never expected to have to actually pay herself.
As an aside, I had a written and signed proposal, but I'm not sure that I could call it a contract. I should look into what constitutes a contract. I'm sure it varies by locale.
I think you are right in being annoyed on this job. The problem is that you should be annoyed with yourself. If you learn a lesson on this one, it may save you from a much more serious one in the future. You just can't be in business any more on a hand shake or verbal agreement. You have to take the time to spell out every possible contingency and get the paper work signed. Most of us are tradespeople. We aren't lawyers and we don't want to spend all our time on paperwork. If you don't, you are going to get screwed, it's just a question of when and how bad.
I took the cat in for a rabies shot a while ago. I had to fill out a bunch of papers and promissory notes before I could write a check. Seems the vet had so many bounce that his business was on the verge of collapse. The same thing happened when I went to have a tooth extracted. I had to pay up front. They would reimburse me when the insurance company paid them. Unfortunately, this is the current state of affairs and we all have to get up to speed. This is why you are POed, you know it's true and you have to change. I hate it too.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Yea, it's all a mess..If you guys want to know what the Fed Reserve is all about, watch this video:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&q=mises%2Binstitute&hl=enYour eyes will be opened..Now then, it's a fact that people and banks are becoming less and less 'good for the money'.. Soon enough, no one will accept checks; Cash only. Problem only gets worse (see the video).. 'Cause there ain't no money. When you deposit a check in the bank, that bank doesn't actually receive cash from the issuing bank for the amount of the check (fractional reserve banking). Nor is your savings actually in a vault somewhere... 98% of the "money" in our economy simply doesn't exist.What to do, what to do... For now, I still cash checks whenever I feel a customer is sketchy..And I always honor cash payments ;)Our entire economy is a fraud, built upon lies, fake promises and imaginary money..Sooner or later though, the bill will come due. Always does.. and I very much doubt the American Empire will survive it when it does.Now, Don, go cash them checks! And mean it this time!And don't put your excess money in a 'savings account'..instead buy something tangible and useful--like a quality tool.Tools are wealth.
1. Put a payment schedule on ALL your proposals/Contracts and dont go 1 day over with out payment in the future.
I put the payment schedule in there and did not enforce it 1 time. Guess how many times I got stuck for money? Yep, 1 time. Fortunately it was only about $3500. (ha, ha)
2. Put a disclosure on your agreements that if the client is not ready or you can not finish because of client, then you can either:
1. Delay project start
2. Complete everything possible and get full payment and will finish up project with a $100 additional trip charge for every trip that the client causes you.
3. Complete work that they proposed to do and charge them on your pre-agreed t&M basis.
And make sure the agreement states that you pick which of the 3 choices you pick depending on your current scheduling demands.
In hind site, you should not have started the job, but now that you are in with both feet, you await for her to finish her stuff, follow up every few days to determine when she will be done and remind her that you are now on other jobs and you might not be able to get there as soon as she is ready. Also get her to agree that the last check will be there when you come to finish the job.
You bid it, you got it, now finish it and learn from it.
I learned that whenever I sharpen up my pencil to fit their budget, I often get widdled down to little or no profit due to stuff like this. I want clients that appreciate me for what I do and will pay accordingly! The other contractors can take the low profit and pita customers!!