Replies

1. 
   bobl | Sep 02, 2005 03:33pm | #1

   remember, the lakes freeze over in the winter, hard enough to drive a pu on

    

   bobl          Volo, non valeo

   Baloney detecter

1. 
   TomMGTC | Sep 02, 2005 03:59pm | #2

   What, exactly, does that do to answer my question, other than get the topic of to a lousy start. I'm well aware of the temperatures there. I lived in MA for 20 years and my parents still live there. I have been going to the same lake for 38 years so I am familiar with the conditions. 

   What I don't have, is a good idea of what type of system makes the most econmic sense to install. Fuel costs are obviously going to be a major issue in the future. Since I will probably be needing some type of ductwork for ventilation does baseboard radiant, (or any type of radiant) make sense. Foced air is what everyone in GA uses but I rearely see it in the northeast. Hydronic with forced air looks like a viable option but I have no info on it to speak of. 

   After all that I still have to decide on oil, electric, or propane. We will be installing a wood stove but that doesn't do anything for freeze protection in the winter. We would like to keep the place usable year round without having to drain and winterize everything each time we leave. Tom

   Douglasville, GA

1. 
   DaveTimberFrame | Sep 02, 2005 05:16pm | #3

   Tom,

   We built a Timber Frame home (slightly less than 2,000 sq ft) in Northern NJ. We have EPS SIP walls, and Urethane roof SIPs (with a cold roof above SIPs for ventilation). The house is an open layout with lots of glass, and a chimney in the center of the house. We have a number of ceiling fans placed throughout the house for heat dispersion. Also use Panasonic thru the wall vent fans all year round to facilitate air change. The house is tight. We use a Hearthstone Sherborne wood stove with a ss liner in the chimney (w/outside air intake) for primary heat (slightly more than 3 cords mixed-hard/soft wood last year), and have HW baseboard heat (5 zones) as as a backup. We use propane -  a propane boiler for gas drier, cook stove, and one additional zone for a hot water maker (unbelievably inexpensive hot water). Propane is clean, easy and simple servicing. Annual contract assure predictable cost.

   Propane usage in 2004 315.9 gal.

   Good luck building - check in with me if you need more detail.

   Dave

    

2. 
   bobl | Sep 03, 2005 06:10am | #6

   how does it help get you an answer?well for one, you have provided additional information.Like you intend to close the place up in the winter.
    

   bobl          Volo, non valeo

   Baloney detecter

2. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 02, 2005 07:53pm | #4

   You have TWO almost completely different issues.

   One is the source of energy, that can be oil, propane, NG, electric resistance, electric heatpump (ground source most like for you climate), wood, pellet, corn, solar, and maybe a few others.

   You need to see what is available in that area and the costs.

   The other is the method of delivering the heat energy. That can be radaint, baseboard, or forced warm air.

   In general any of those can be supplied by any fuel source.

   I see no advantage is hydro-air system as a "whole" system. Only where only covers part of the area the the other is radiant or baseboard.

   And you need run a load calculation to find out what the load is. While a ground source heat pump might very likely be have the most ecomonically operating cost the capital expsenses might might it never pay off. Specially for a supper insulated house.

3. 
   TurtleBoy | Sep 03, 2005 05:57am | #5

   Tom,

   My In-laws have a deck house in Alexandria NH right on New Found Lake. They have forced hot air and have problems with a musty lower level like a walk out basement. They wish that they had radiant due to the tiles being wet and cold where you enter the house.

   I know that the problems may be due to many reasons, but I think the radiant would have worked better. Baseboard would have been better than the forced hot air.

   They heat with propane and have a stove that will burn wood and coal.

   Turtleboy

4. 
   Mongo | Sep 03, 2005 06:16am | #7

   The SIPs will do a great job of minimizing radiant heat gain in the summer, thus limiting the need for additional cooling via air conditioning.

   Breezes off the lake? Windows for cross-ventilation? A ceiling fan or two to promote air movement? If you can get through the summers without air conditioning, then...

   I'd recommend radiant floor heat, and since it's a partial-use place, I'd do a closed system with glycol.

   I'd even use PEX for the domestic water supply.

   Even if it freezes, there's still enough give that it can absorb the expansion and recover when the frozen water thaws. The negative with PEX is pitching horizontal runs for seasonal draining, if that's a direction you're thinking of. You'd need decent support to keep horizintal runs from drooping.

   However, with a nice SIP structure, simple solar gain is likely to keep the unoccupied structure above freezing in the winter.

   Radiant can be pricey, but you've been on the forum long enough, you can do your own staple-up. In this case staple-up ( or another low-mass variant) might be a better choice, as a low-mass system will recover from a long down time faster than a high-mass slab.

   You can even use smart technology where you can phone the house and turn on the heat telephonically. Give the house a call when you're gettig on the flight out of Hartsfield, and by the time you get there the house will be toasty warm.

   A geothermal loop could work as well, but it's not my forte so I'll let others reply regarding that.

   As for fuel, you'd have to see what's traditional or available up there. For a tight house my first choice would probably be a natural gas fired water heater for both domestic HW and the radiant floor system. But as you know, oil is king in the northeast.

1. 
   TomMGTC | Sep 07, 2005 04:09am | #8

   You're right about oil in the NE, seems to be the fuel of choice. I have no experience with it so I'm not sure where I stand on that. I need to find a good comparison of the costs per BTU between oil and propane. As far as radiant floor, what is the benefit of staple up vs an installation on top of the floor. Radiant seems like the way to go. I don't think I will be needing a/c but I may look at ducting in for high velocity while everything is open and accessable. Are there any specific issues I need to consider when choosing between oil or gas such as venting etc. Seems like I have seen powered vents on some installations up there. Is that a common thing to either system or does it apply only to oil fired units?

   I am planning to have the load calcs and design done by Northeast Radiant Technology. I spoke with them by phone and via e-mail and they were quite helpful and will give a few design options once the calcs are done, all at a pretty reasonable price. Has anyone else had experience with them?

   Tom

    Douglasville, GA

   Edited 9/6/2005 9:17 pm ET by TomW

1. 
   Mongo | Sep 08, 2005 08:11am | #9

   Keep losing my internet connection. Dang.

   Real fast...

   With a vacation home, if the tubing did freeze and leak, a staple-up would do less damage and would be easier to fix. Granted there's not a helluva lot of fluid in an average system, but who wants gallons of stuff between their finished floor and their subfloor? Buckled floors, etc...plus you;d have to tear things up to fix the leak.

   Oil burner, yeah, the standard is they vent into a chimney.

   A nice efficient gas burner could be direct/power vent via a run of PVC.

   Personally, if I had the choice I'd choose natural gas.

   Propane or oil, for me personally, would be a toss-up.

1. 
   TomMGTC | Sep 08, 2005 03:18pm | #10

   I had no plans for a chimney. Was going with a wood stove so just a pipe was in the plan but the plumbing people have told me they recommend a chimney to ven the burner. No natural gas available here so it will be either oil or propane.Tom

   Douglasville, GA