Working on the basement wiring. I have to add a smoke detector (hardwired) so tapped into the existing circuit that has the other 3 detectors on it. Does this circuit need to stay dedicated just for the alarms, or can I tap off of this for this back room? I can’t find anything specific with the paperwork I was given for local codes.
I know this is something to ask the local inspector, which I’ll try doing tomorrow, though with the holiday, thought I’d check in here too.
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Replies
Some insist it be a separate circuit, others insist that it NOT be a separate circuit.
There is nothing in the NEC that requires or prohibits the smokes to be on a dedicated circuit.
I am of the opinon that it is best that the circuit not be dedicated by how some commonly used lighting on it such as a hallway, master bedroom or bathroom.
That way it is known if the breaker trips and less likely for someone to use the breaker to silence the alarms and then leave them off.
But the NEC (and other codes) is just a suggestion until the local authority adopts a specific version with local amendments, if any.
I have heard that some place require the smokes to be on a dedicated circuit and other that prohibit it.
Now I have not see any local amendments that require one or the other so I am not sure.
It is not unknow that inspectors something get an "idea" and require things without it being specifically listed in the code.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, I go through this all the time. Inspector says its a fixture soooooo, in the bedroom it needs to be AFCI. I disagree.
If a mosquito farts in the right direction an AFC will trip.
In the past when i'd done complete rewires, I always put in a seperate SD circuit. My new sparky runs them off the AFC bedroom circuit.
What do think about that? I do use battery back up SD's so maybe its a non issue.
I think that the orginal code that required AFCI's only required it on receptacles.But the later versions on a 15 and 20 amp, 120 volt circuits supplying ANY OUTLETS in a bedroom.And an OUTLET is any place that electrical power is USED.Thus the smokes need to be on it. There are two other "options". Find some 240 v smokes. Or talk some sense into the legistlative body that adopts the code in your area and get the AFCI requirements completely deleted. Many areas have done that.And the 2008 NEC requires them for ALL branch circuits. But I have not seen the actual wording so I don't know what the exceptions are..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ugh. AFCI's on all circuits? Man is the cost gonna go up.
I love how things get into code before their even perfected.
I swear, I dont know how man kind has gotten this far without all this legislation.
I agree with most codes but come on. I'm still waiting for the codes to call for 3" of sponge on all floor surfaces and padding on all bedroom walls.
Bill, I go through this all the time. Inspector says its a fixture soooooo, in the bedroom it needs to be AFCI. I disagree.
The NEC is pretty clear about this (Bill already said it): ALL 120v outlets in a bedroom. An outlet is any opening that utilizes electricity, so this most definitely includes smokes. I can cite the section of you want.
If a mosquito farts in the right direction an AFC will trip.
This has not been my experience at all. I've been installing them since they were first required (2002 I think) and I have had very little problem with them. They have built-in GFCI protection also, and when there has been a problem it is usually related to that, not the arc-fault protection. Now that I think about it, I haven't actually had even ONE call in all this time that turned out to be an arc-fault problem.
In the past when i'd done complete rewires, I always put in a seperate SD circuit. My new sparky runs them off the AFC bedroom circuit.
In my area they are required to be on a general lighting circuit, and since this includes bedrooms then they need to be AFCI protected. This is either NFPA 72 (fire alarm code) or Massachusetts building code, I don't know which.
Ed
Edited 1/1/2008 12:50 pm ET by edlee
You dont need to cite the code. I disagree but comply.
Okay I admit they're not quite as sensitive as I make it seem but I have had one or two call backs on AFI.
Wasnt aware that an AFCI is also a GFCI.
"This has not been my experience at all. I've been installing them since they were first required (2002 I think) and I have had very little problem with them. They have built-in GFCI protection also, and when there has been a problem it is usually related to that, not the arc-fault protection."In general, an AFCI is NOT an GFCI.The AFCI has ground fault detection, as part of it's logic. However it is at a maximum of 30 ma of fault current. It is designed to detect damaged wiring insulationA GFCI for personal protection against electrocution (I believe that it is called a clase A, but not sure) has a 5 ma trip point.There are some combo AFCI/GFCI's available, but they would be so marked.Something that is just labled AFCI does not qualify for the protection needed in a bathroom, kitchen, etc.Recently I saw an article where on the companies first AFCI's had 10 ma trip point on ground faults. And that was causing too many false trips that they ended up increasing it to standard of 30 ma.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
An AFCI is NOT an GFCI. The AFCI has ground fault detection, as part of it's logic. However it is at a maximum of 30 ma of fault current.
The letters GFCI stand for ground-fault circuit interruptor. Whether it is set at 5 mA or 30mA, it is still ground-fault protection.
If the industry definition of GFCI includes a maximum trip level of 5mA, then I apologfize for my error, though it was in terminology. Ground-fault protection of equipment (GFPE) is commonly rated at 30mA or sometimes more, and this is what I was referring to.
Ed
I would think that almost any electrical contractor that mainly does residential work when they say GFCI they are thinking of a class A (ma) and certain 99% of the HO's and GC's.Aparently they clarified this in the 2002 cycle.http://www.mikeholt.com/videodisplay.php?id=4"Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter
A Class A ground-fault circuit interrupter opens the circuit when the current-to-ground has a value between 4 mA and 6 mA. A Class B GFCI is designed to trip at 20 mA. The Code panel wanted to be sure that a Class A GFCI protection device would be used, when required by the Code. Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter."Here is the definitions of in the 2005 NEC. It is clear that GFCI is ment to be a 5 ma device."Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI). A device intended for the protection of
personnel that functions to de-energize a circuit or portion thereof within an established
period of time when a current to ground exceeds the values established for a Class A
device.
FPN: Class A ground-fault circuit interrupters trip when the current to ground has a value in the
range of 4 mA to 6 mA. For further information, see UL 943, Standard for Ground-Fault Circuit
Interrupters.""Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment. A system intended to provide protection of
equipment from damaging line-to-ground fault currents by operating to cause a
disconnecting means to open all ungrounded conductors of the faulted circuit. This
protection is provided at current levels less than those required to protect conductors from
damage through the operation of a supply circuit overcurrent device.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I would think that almost any electrical contractor that mainly does residential work when they say GFCI they are thinking of a class A (ma) and certain 99% of the HO's and GC's.
Hey whatever Bill.............it's way off the point of my post, which was that AFCI's provide ground-fault protection and my experience has been that it is said ground-fault protection that has resulted in service calls, not arc-faults or nuisance trips.
Ed
Edited 1/2/2008 10:16 pm ET by edlee
"I have heard that some place require the smokes to be on a dedicated circuit and other that prohibit it."I honestly don't know how you professionals deal with the code police. Man...I'm just one person and one basement and I'm about to strangle them myself.Thanks for the answers! I'll definitely wait and get the official word from my inspector first. (Though I do like the logic of putting at least one common light on the circuit...)
Don't forget that you need 3-wire (plus ground) cable between the units, so that they can be rigged to all sound if one sounds. This doesn't prevent them from being on another circuit -- the rest of the circuit is 2-wire, and the third wire isn't connected to anything other than the detectors. Also, go ahead and install 2nd boxes (on the same circuit) next to a couple of the detectors, for CO detectors.And there should always be some battery powered units in the house as well.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Just purchased a combination smoke/CO detector for the kennel building. Has the same three wire set up for series conections as other SD only I've used. Price was about the same as a single SD. All the SD/CO detectors I've bough in the last six years have had battery back up included.
I'll still need to replace it about every five years I think.
Dave
>>Just purchased a combination smoke/CO detector for the kennel building. Has the same three wire set up for series conections as other SD only I've used. Price was about the same as a single SD. All the SD/CO detectors I've bough in the last six years have had battery back up included.FWIW, the combo CO/SDs use the less sensitive CO technology; I recommend at a minimum the type with an led CO level raed out.The new Kidde combo units call for replacement at 7 years, and mouinting on the ceiling or wall, no closer than 4" to a wall/ceiling corner, if on a wall, no more than 12" below the ceiling.
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Thanks Bob.
Mounting locations were recomended on the box. I can't recall if it was a Kidd or not.
I have already written the replacement date on the back of the unit , next to the battery compartment. I used 5 years for the replacement cycle. It is in a kennel building/ art studio, so not considered a full time occupancy structure.
...." I honestly don't know how you professionals deal with the code police. ... "it's a whole lot easier to just ask first.. then after a few phone calls when the guy or gal shows up, they give you some latitude with other issues sometimesmost of them are easy to work with, occasionally you run into one who is on a power trip !one fella actually wore a badge.....no lie .
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
ya, that sounds good, put them on a dedicated circuit, then to silence them you just have to flip one breaker .. better they're just on the bedroom AFCI ..
"then to silence them you just have to flip one breaker .."After you remove the batteries from them all???I used to separate circuit them, but after AFCI rules, I just add them to a bedroom lighting circuit.Frank DuVal
It must be a separate curcuit ran in paraell . At least in Chicago, we have the most strigent codes in the country .
local code here required that smoke detector has to share a circuit with a major item, so you cant flip the circuit breaker. mine share the circuit with the kitcern overhead lights.
Our too. Electricians here use the main bathroom. I would imagine the kitchen lighting would be a pain, as it's usually where the smoke comes from. So when you flip the breaker to shut off the alarm, you are in the dark with a burning pot.
ahhh grasshopper, you finally see the point
Sensei.