Hi!
Today, my DH took off work do do some honey-do stuff. The back porch ceiling had been leaking for a while, so we had to find out where that water was coming from. We narrowed it down to being caused by the bathroom sink drain water pipe. Next we needed to find the exact location of the drip. Because, it would be, hopefully, easier to access the pipe area from beneath, rather than tearing up the tiled bathroom floor and the subfloor, DH worked from beneath. He took down the porch ceiling boards, then the insulation between the joists beneath the bathroom.
The good news is we found the drip right away. Fortunately, I could tell exactly where the water was coming from (since when I looked up water dripped right on my face); also, there is darkened spot where the water is coming from. There is a tiny, visible hole at the bottom of the 10 1/2″ (edited to say 3″w) copper drain pipe. The hole is located about mid distance between the width of the porch. He has not checked yet, but thinks it could have been caused by the former owner hammering a nail in the porch ceiling.
The bad news is the pipe is about a finger distance from the floor board above and between a joist (edited to say the pipe is between two joists). DH is not sure how to cut the 10 1/2″ (edited to say pipe is 3″ w) copper pipe having so little space. Is there a special tool for this? To make the repair he plans to cut the pipe and put on a sleeve (and I got lost from there). Do you know what tool to use to cut the large pipe with such a small clearance? Thanks for helping.
Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Edited 10/11/2005 9:44 pm ET by Eroomgardener
Replies
If it's copper and just a pinhole, he might be able to solder it where it sits, no cutting required. Hopefully some of the more plumbing-oriented posters will jump in on this one.
sly,
Thanks. I have the feeling it is not small enough to simply use solder. But then, how big is the largest solderable hole? That would be great if he did not have to cut it. DH talked about cutting and joining pieces of pipe. I guess that is why he mentioned that he thinks someone punctured it with a nail. I will ask him tomorrow how big the hole is. He now has to take off again tomorrow since the ceiling needs to go up. Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Eroom,
This is a drain pipe. No pressure in it. DH does NOT need to cut and sleeve the pipe.
They make a pipe repair patch that is basically a patch of rubber with a stainless steel wrap and two hose clamps... All rivetted together.
Undo the hoseclamps, feed the patch though the space above the pipe, thread the clamps back together and tighten.
Viola ! The leak is fixed.
BY the way... I have never seen a ten and a half inch copper pipe. Are you talking about the length between joists, or is that a typo ?
One other choice... Sandpaper the leak area, and apply epoxy. Lay a copper patch on that, if you wish.
Luka is right with a number of good suggestions. I would do the epoxy route in this situation. JB Weld comes to mind. Just sand it on the outside so it is clean and roughed up. Then mix the epoxy according to directions and apply. If the hole is as big as say a 1/2" you can use a little mesh drywall tape to give the epoxy a little strength. DanT
What if that "pinhole" is the result of corrosion from someone using nasty chemicals to clean or unclog the aforementioned drain? Patching with epoxy or solder may not be a very permanent solution. If a compression patch is used it may deform the pipe and result in a reappearing wet ceiling after they've repaired and repainted thinking they fixed it.
Methinks this bears some further reconnaissance. Perhaps cutting out a section of the drain pipe might not be such a bad idea. and may save a second "tear out the ceiling and fix the leaky pipe adventure.
IMHO I have always operated by the doctrine of "the harder it is to get to a leak, the more I want to be absolutely certain that I have fixed it for good the first time"." If I were a carpenter"
Thanks, Mark.
You are correct, about "the harder it is to get to a leak, the more I want to be absolutely certain that I have fixed it for good the first time".
It has been a difficult job. While I was upstairs, DH used words indicating an injury. I ran down and found that one of the ceiling boards hit him on the nose and while prying the molding which hold the boards, the bar slipped-he also somehow cut his finger. The molding and ceiling is attached by nails which have rusted from age, even where the water has not been. That is why it was so difficult to remove it. The builder of the porch ceiling did not make the area easy to access. This is something we are trying to figure out, too, making it look neat and seamless, but accessible. DH plans to put everything back up using screws, but we know a new porch ceiling may be needed eventually. Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Eroom, Mark is entirely correct. I have to confess, I was thinking in terms of a pipe that was already as accessible as it is, and which will stay that way. I was picturing the pipe being as open as it would be in an unfinished basement. A brain fart, on my part.If you have evidence of years of leaks all the way along the pipe, as you describe... Then like it or not, I would think the best advice would be to just pull the entire thing and replace it with PVC.Better to be sure now, than to do all the work of replacing the ceiling, and taking the chance of having to tear it out again anyway.2 things... If that pipe is 3 inch copper, it must have been there a very long time. Or maybe was recycled from someplace else where it had been for a while aready ? Unless this is a mansion belonging to a kabillionair, I can't imagine anyone in my lifetime wasting the money on copper for a 3 inch drain pipe.And 2.. Once you have it torn out, you just may get enough out of it for scrap metal to pay for half a day's labor. LOL
We were wondering why that sized pipe was used. The house was built in the early seventies. Does that qualify as appropiate to the time?Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Early 70's would kinda-sorta qualify, if it is pipe that was recycled from somewhere else. Probably someplace commercial or industrial.I'm not a plumber and don't have a huge amount of experience with this. But in the early 70's I would have expected to see cast iron. Some were still using lead. Some were using lead for sealing purposes only. Some were even still using "Oakum" for sealing.I can remember seeing galvanized being used then as well. Never copper. Any copper or brass that I ran into at that time was already pretty badly corroded. And all copper or brass was replaced.From your answer to Joe is does sound like corrosion. And it doesn't sound like the problem is confined to the one leak. Just that the one leak is the only one obvious at this time.Also, you say it has been some time since it was used, but it is still wet, and still dripping. That could be because of a tremendous amout of buildup in the pipe. Holding the water like a sponge. A quick suggestion...Squeeze the pipe.You should not be able to deform a 3 inch copper pipe by other than mechanical means.If you can deform it just squeezing it with your hand, replace the entire pipe, without question.Try squeezing it right at the leak, too.
> If that pipe is 3 inch copper, it must have been there a very long time.
Not necessarily. Copper DWV can be used where you need to keep the diameter of the holes you make in the framing to a minimum. For instance, 3" copper will fit thru a 3 1/8" hole, which is the absolute max code will allow in a 2x10 joist. The suggestion to replace it with ABS should be evaluated in light of this requirement.
I bought some copper DWV for downspouts. IIRC, it was about $50 for a 20 ft. Not cheap compared to plastic, but worth it if it solves a problem.
-- J.S.
I bought some 2" about 2 years ago.
Hideously expensive for the pipe, the fittings were priced like jewels.
Did the job though.
Joe H
That makes sense here. One side is directly slipped into the cast iron pipe close to the tub and toilet. I cannot see the other end as it disappears into the outer wall frame.Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Hi, Luka,
Sorry, I apologize.
Thanks for the suggestions. I was writing too quickly and meant to say how do we cut a 10 1/2 inch circumference copper pipe with a small hole in it that is located between two joists and a "finger" between the pipe and ceiling.
The drip has been going on for years probably. There was evidence of a leak when we first moved in. The evidence was not showing from the ceiling of the porch then, but from the ceiling of the family room. At the time we thought it was caused from the toilet, or had been caused by a tub overflowing (ninety year old previous resident). DH replaced the toilet seal, replaced the above the floor water pipe and the internal parts. We thought we took care of that and still think it is ok there, but how can we really tell until we take down the old type family room ceiling (a major job that some time will need to be done). We are not positive this is the only leak; when testing, after removing the porch boards beneath the drain pipe, a steady drip came from the pipe in one spot. Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Lots of good advise posted above.
The only 1/2" drain pipe I have seen on a house is a dishwasher.
Or is it 1 1/2" one & one half inch ?
Which is common on lavs.
If you're needing to cut the pipe there are plenty of specialty pipe cutters on the market I don't suggest going to buy one for one cut.
Most people in BT own a sawzall of some kind, put a wedge in-between pipe & tight space to keep pipe from shaking all over & causing a leak somewhere else use a blade with a lot of teeth.
plumbill,
I am sorry, I made an error. That is right about the size of the usual drain pipe, but this copper drain pipe is a three inch pipe. We are still trying to figure out what to use to cut it since there is only a finger depth amount of space above it and located between two joists. Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
I think the earlier advice re epoxy is the best of the lot.
JB weld or any of a dozen other brands will work. If it is a nail hole (should be obvious, hole is dented in) epoxy will do the trick. Stick a clean penny on, tape it in place while glue sets and you're done.
Start cutting and you're guaranteed a mess.
Joe H
Thanks, Joe,
Then, the bad news is there is no dent; so the leak came from within, I guess. Do you still think patching would work? It will be difficult to get the pipe dry though. Although not used since yesterday afternoon, it is still dripping a little bit at a time. I am guessing the hole is tiny and that is why it is taking so long to empty.
The copper pipe is attached to the heavy cast iron pipe at the walls. It would be difficult to completely replace if necessary. DH went to the plumbing store to find out what they have. If the cutting tool is really expensive, we may have to call someone and do the woodworking outselves.Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
IF you can live with the open ceiling, you can patch it and wait. I've got a big hole in the hallway ceiling that's been there about a year now, just so I could make sure the bathroom is ok.Of course, I'll probably puncture something closing up the hole...
Ok a few things.
Early 60's to mid 70's copper DWV was very popular & cheap. & very noisy.
Pipe probably rotted from the inside copper DWV is the thinnest copper in plumbing & doesn't like draino old liquid plumber & my favorite CLOBBER I have to show my plumbing license to buy that stuff.
3" well it could be connect to your toilet.
If you can't replace the pipe you can use something like this.
http://doityourself.com/store/8408528.htm
Thanks, plumbbill,
Looks like good stuff. Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
As a stopgap measure, or if you decide that the pipe is structurally sound, there is a patch kit which is a roll of fiberglass fabric coated in epoxy. Just dip the roll in water, and wrap around the leaking area (start about six inches above and hole and continue to six inches beyond the hole). The more you turn the fabric, the more solid the repair. My friend (the maintenance director at a vocational technical school) uses these patches all the time, and even on pipes under pressure. None have ever failed. I have used them as well, and have been very happy with the results. You can get them at plumbing supply houses.
Elliott
The pipe seems sound. I wonder what the lifetime of this tape is. We plan to stay here a long time.Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
I had a similar problem once. Rather than use the rubber gasket fix, I just soldered a patch over the hole. You can make it whatever size you need. You can get a short length of 3/4" copper pipe and cut it with aviation snips, flatten it out to as close to the radius of the damaged pipe as possible. Clamp it to the leaking pipe and solder away. If the pipe is wet, you'll have problems though. If you haven't use it in a few days and it's still dropping, either something else is connected to it keeping it wet or there's lots of crud inside holding the water. If you can't dry it out, you'll never get a good solder joint. You could also consider cutting the damaged lenght of pipe out so you can KNOW what the deal is, instead of guessing. You can replace the removed section with either copper (if you can find it) or plastic. Use rubber sleeves with hose clamps to rejoin the new section to the old, since it'll be near impossible to join in a patch without a union otherwise. Such a repair will likely outlast you.
If it's a long narrow run of corrosion from the inside, a patch won't be too practical. But if it's small enough, that'll work. Tie the patch in place with wire while you solder it. Or, you could use the wire itself wrapped tight together as the patch.
-- J.S.
The life of the tape is seemingly a long time. My friend as installs that are 15 years old without a failure. The tape hardens like a rock--it seems to me to be stronger than the pipe itself.
Elliott
Hi, Eroom! Glad to see you over here visiting the hairy-knuckle gang, LOL. Sorry the occasion is one of troubles for you, but let's see what we can do to straighten you out.
If you're dealing with a 3" copper DWV, then it's the main drain line out of that bathroom, not just the sink line. 'Upstream' from it will be several Y fittings where the other appliances in the bathroom tap into it.
I'm having a bit of trouble visualising the placement of this pipe, so correct me if I'm wrong: What I get from your description is a pipe running along the length of a joist bay (the space between two joists), and your hole is about halfway between the two sidewalls of the porch. It's also pretty hard up under the subfloor of the bathroom above, and runs close alongside one of the joists.
If this is an accurate description, about the only way I can see you'll be able to cut this pipe is with a cutting wire, which is a flexible piece of cable, coated with tiny bits of carborundum. Each end of the cable has a ring on it for you to hook a finger through. This type of tool is not expensive, although you may have to search a bit to find one.
You drape the cable over the pipe, hook your fingers into the rings, and saw back and forth carefully until the cut gets started. Once you're into the pipe by a half-inch or so, it will go quickly. If it binds, that's because in pulling down on the pipe you are closing the kerf; the solution is to support the pipe near to where you are cutting so this does not happen. Screwing up a couple of temporary pipe-straps can accomplish this.
The real problem you will have is sweating a new piece of pipe in there. Even with clear access and clean, new pipe, sweating 3" fittings is a lot more difficult than sweating the usual ½" riser. But it you want to go for it, here's how:
You'll need to make sure all the burrs left by the cutting are smoothed off, and that the cut is as square as possible. You'll need to sand the outside of the pipe and the inside of the fittings until they are literally as clean and shiny as a new penny. You'll need to use lots of good quality flux (GoodCrest is about the best; you may need to get it from a plumbing supplier rather than a DIY hardware store), and you'll need to have a torch that can put out a lot of heat, preferably an Oxy/MAPP torch.
Finally, you'll need to protect the wood in the immediate area from catching fire. This can be done by using pieces of ¼" cementitious backer board, but you may have to use some ingenuity to get them to stay where you want them while you're working with that torch over your head. It is a good idea to have fire-extinguisher ready at hand while you do this. Even experienced plumbers have things catch fire while doing this kind of stuff.
Since this is old pipe with a certainty of having a build-up of crud inside it, you should clean out the crud for as far back from each cut as you can reach, and dry things very very well. Remember, when the heat hits that pipe, any moisture in it will start to boil, causing crud to turn to slime and ooze down the pipe toward your joint. The last thing you need to happen is for a drip of slime to weasle its way in between the pipe and the fitting by capillary action after you've assembled it but before the solder has been sucked into the joint. If that happens, the solder won't stick and the joint will leak.
So to re-cap: Clean all surfaces well; use lots of flux; and get the pipe and the fitting HOT before touching it with the solder. The whole joint all the way around that big pipe has to be well above the melting point of the solder before you can be sure the solder will be sucked into and around the entire pipe. This is especially true in a tight spot like yours where it's likely you won't be able to run the solder wire around the entire joint.
Last bit of advice: wear a face shield while doing this; a drop of water dripping down into your eye as you stand under the pipe is no big deal; a drop of molten solder getting you in the same spot could really ruin your whole outlook on life. And the solder will drip, I guarantee you that....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Not to pick an argument but why would you go through all that and risk fire when using Fernco couplers is an accepted and code approved method? Especially when dealing with people who have not done this type of work before?
I have soldered miles of pipe in many locations and still cringe at doing it in an already built tight space, especially large diameter pipe where the flame has to be moved around considerably to heat the entire pipe. My vote would be Fernco if you are going to replace the piece. DanT
I agree with your post, fernco's are the only answer, like you, I have soldered many fittings that make my hair stand up on my head. I would only solder in this situation if I was forced to. Good call. "May The Force Be With You"
Bro, I agree that sweating a new section in there will be a bitch of a job. I thought I'd communicated that in my post. But I don't feel I can accurately judge someone's skills at this remove, so for me to have just posted, "Listen, forget it. Hire a pro; you can't handle this" would have been a bit arrogant.
Instead, I trust Eroom and her DH to be intelligent folk who are capable of reading the how-to info and deciding for themselves whether or not it's a good idea for them to attempt this type of repair in their situation.
I definitely wouldn't recommend doing it this way if a patch would suffice; but at this point we really don't know if a patch would suffice. We haven't heard back on the solidity of that pipe after Luka suggested she give it a squeeze.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
There is a lot of experience and enthusiasm over here. I want to thank everyone for helping with this. Thank you very much.
Here is what we did. We decided it would be best to cut the drain pipe rather than patch it, as we did not want to have to go back later. (We need to make the porch ceiling more accessible, and still attractive, but not sure when to do that.) Because of spatial limitation (Yes, Dinosauer that is the set up), we decided to call in the Calvery for the cut. DH has done quite a bit of plumbing over the years (for our own DIY projects including moving the commode to where the sink was, and visa versa), and has tackled a lot of projects but we did not want to take any chances on this one. The fellow we called in has some 25 years experience and has done things here before, so I had confidence in his expertise. He cut out the main length of pipe, and slipped 4" wide NoHubs (sp?) on each end. Because it is a drain pipe, as you mentioned, it did not need soldering. I asked DH to be sure to keep the copper pipe (thanks for informing me about the value of the copper, I may use it in the garden for something interesting, but can always sell it).
Any ideas for garden accents?
Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Copper pipe is expensive compared with other building materials, but a short piece, used, with a leak, isn't all that valuable. It's been a while, but IIRC, I paid a couple dollars a foot for 3" DWV, new. Do clean it up, though, and check if it's corroded through from the inside as we suspected. It might make a nice pedestal for a birdbath or something like that. Or put it in a garage sale.
-- J.S.
I will check Saturday to see the condition of the pipe. I am hoping the pipe is not corroded, or we may have to repeat this with the guest bathroom.
The pedestal idea is excellent, but I do not have a bowl.Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
I kept my 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" copper drain pipe, removed in a kitchen remodel, for future wind chimes, garden decorations, or whatever else cretive I can come up with. It's just too nice to get rid of. FYI, no corrison issues with mine - 40 yrs old.
That is good to hear (no corrosion of 40 year old drain pipe). I guess if we ever need to remove the other drain pipe, it would give me more garden accent options. How long are your scrap pipes? Is there enough for a garden sculpture? Let me know if you come up with something. Copper is beautiful in the garden. I am tired of propping up my plants with bamboo sticks. I wonder how expensive bendable copper tubing would be-the width and thickness that would be study enough to put in the ground, but easy enough to bend to a shape? I could shape the top hold the particular types of floppy types of plants.Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Maybe we should move this discussion to Over the Fence?
Seriously, I've seen some great copper plant supports. They tend to be solid though and $$$.
The longest run of scrap pipe I have is around 4 feet, so yea, I'm gonna have fun with it! But won't be till Spring at the earliest.
wrudiger,
Actually, we could move to OTF, but most of the gardening folks are not the copper pipe, torch, and soldering experts you are. I am certain they would send us back to BT. ;-)
I checked the pipe and apparently the hole was a bad spot that was there from the start. That is what the expert said. It was a really small hole, no bigger than a tiny brad. There was a lot of black tarnish around the area and no dents there, or anywhere else. The pipe is in excellent condition, with only slight, expected light corrosion inside. It would probably have lasted many more years. What is the life of a copper pipe if no strong corrosives were used?
It is easy looking back, but, all the methods suggested, the patching, soldering (if we could have gotten the pipe to stop dripping), epoxy tape, and of course, the cutting would have worked just fine.
Thank you again.
Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
Edited 10/15/2005 7:52 pm ET by Eroomgardener
> What is the life of a copper pipe if no strong corrosives were used?
Usually well over 50 years, 100 or more is well within reason. The pharaoh Suhura's mortuary temple had copper pipe from basin drains to a trough, still there after 4500 years. Definitely pre-draino, and not in service for very long.
-- J.S.
Copper Sounds like great material, but who knows what the former owner put down the sink.Eroomgardener, Zone 6 or 7 depending.
don't cut the copper pipe -- get a large hose clamp and a piece of rubber (piece of an old inner tube or a piece of EPDM roofing and you are set) -- if you need to you can use 2 hose clamps it is an easy fix that should take a few minutes -- Dudley