I need a cheap combination wall hung boiler
I was the one who started the thread about how I should heat 4 separate units that I’m remodeling. After a lengthy discussion with the fire inspector and building inspector, I should be putting in 4 combination tankless water heater/ hydronic baseboard boilers. It’s a long story, but because of the setup of the builing, doing so will save me about $5k and two weeks worth of work, plus give me a little more space in the units, because of the fire codes. I realize I’ll be re-spending some of those savings by doing these units, but it should still be worth it.
So I’ve started looking online, but I haven’t really found anything for under $2k. It needs to be gas and super small, the unit is only about 700 sq. ft. Is it at all possible to find anything for less than that? Would I just be better off going to a plumbing supply place and trying to strike a deal since I’ll be buying four of them?
Thanks
John
Replies
Personally.
I would have gone to the supplier I do business with. I would give them the information of what the application would be and ask their advice. They would then price it out with whatever options they had as to manufacturer. After review, that is the price I would use in an estimate. I wouldn't do the install, so would add that price to the bid to have it installed, piped and finished.
As far as "cutting a deal"? The deal is, I've been doing business with them for 30 yrs. I already get whatever they deem the best price v. retail-usually 25% / 30%. You would be buying 4, now.............onetime. Not in the trades.
or
I would go to my HVAC contractor and ask them to spec out what would work and how much installed (and warranted). That would be the price in the estimate-installed.
Give all a try and make a decision.
Best of luck.
Anyone know of any very cheap dealers that sell online?
I just found this-
http://cgi.ebay.com/Quietside-DPW-099A-Dual-Purpose-Hot-Water-Boiler-System_W0QQitemZ190388238987QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c5405fa8b
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's about as small as they come I think, which is great for my situation. Not familiar with the brand, so I did a search and as it is with everything else on the internet, got completely mixed reviews. It's mega cheap, I can't imagine finding one any cheaper. Seller also has perfect feedback, plus it's free shipping. But then again, if it's a total piece of crap then that is really besides the point. Anyone have experience with Quietside or dual purpose boilers in general?
It's cheap and it's small
Does it meet your needs?
heat and hot water, that is.
I'm not sure because I don't know how to properly size a combination boiler. The unit is only 700 sq. ft. and theres just one bathroom and one kitchen, so I assume I need as small a unit as I can get. Correct thinking?
Well
It might be correct thinking-if it works as planned.
You need to do more than figure it's a small apt. and only one bath. A heat loss calc. will tell you how much heat you need to have this boiler produce. I'm no heating guy so I call one. Perhaps the manufacturer will do the legwork for you. If not, there's an online site that has a worksheet used to produce the BTU's necessary to heat a space. Someone here can provide the link I"m sure.
But to go about this by buying the smallest because you don't think youi need bigger is certainly not the way to go. Figure what you need, then go about finding what will take care of it. Pay to have that done if you cannot figure it out yourself. Be a bitch to buy 4 low priced things then find out you blew it.
Yeah, to my recollection John is planning to hang onto this building and rent the units, so he needs to think doubly hard about how it will be, in the middle of winter, if he has to put his renters up in a motel while he repairs a deficient heating system.
Yeah I'm definitely going to have to size this properly, it's just that my hvac guy is on vacation until the middle of next week. I would love to have a boiler picked out for him ahead of time so we can get moving on the thing that much faster. Still generally speaking, if the unit is only 700 sq. ft. and the building is going to be gutted and newly insulated with cellulose, and there's shared walls, is there realistically any way it can require more than the smallest boiler?
Like I said, I'll have him run his heatload calculations when he gets back. But getting a head start on what boiler I'll be using has to save us a few days and hopefully, if I end up buying these models, then it will also save me about $2-4k.
Remember this unit will be supplying hot water as well as heat. But 700 sq ft is pretty small...
I understand where you're going, but I also recall that I've been in apartment buildings where the ones in the middle didn't even turn on the heat, but the ones on the corners were freezing cold. And if you get one resident who's only comfortable at 75F when the others are perfectly happy at 65F, the "shared" heat idea doesn't really work out and that one unit will be heating the entire building.
Quit saying "cheap" ... also
Quit saying "cheap" ... also read Dan H's reply ... are the units identical in exposure? You have heating load and water load. The simultaneous water loads can be large.
While I much respect you trying to save a buck and some time, I think you should RELAX. Let your HVAC guy come back and lend a hand ... assuming he doesn't want to just sell you whatever ... and leave you with way oversized ... which IMO is as detrimental as being undersized.
Do some legwork if you want to do a decent job that is economical and not cheap. You just sound so cheap when you use that word. :)
Do some calcs on your loads, it's really not too hard. If you need, I can probably send you a spreadsheet ... you just have to modify the few inputs to match your situation. Let me know ...
"You just sound so cheap when
"You just sound so cheap when you use that word."
The reason for that would be that I'm cheap. I've made a good life for myself being cheap, I will not change that. Do I really have to put a disclaimer saying that by "cheap", I mean low priced, and not a total piece of junk? Really? I'm posting on the "Fine Homebuilding" messageboards, not the "Super Crappy Homebuilding" boards.
"Let your HVAC guy come back and lend a hand ... assuming he doesn't want to just sell you whatever"
Don't be ridiculous. I've heard a lot of things, but I've never heard of a contractor doing a bad job or giving bad information. Heretic! Apart from being cheap, I am also not blindly trusting of tradesmen. This too has served me well in life.
Thank you for offering to send me a spreadsheet, I'd love to look at it. I need all the help I can get.
There is a difference between cheap and inexpensive ... semantics, I know. And I respect inexpensive.
I also respect the trades ... but I've seen plenty that do bad work or give 'cheap' advice designed only to further their pocketbooks. Good that you don't blindly trust them.
I'll clean up my spreadsheet and fire off a copy to you.
I don't generally look for either "cheap" or "inexpensive". I look for "value" -- the ratio of utility to cost. Sometimes that's the most inexpensive option, sometimes one of the more expensive ones.
I am also not blindly trusting of tradesmen
zombie,
In one breath you call him "my" hvac guy. Yet in the above statement you seem to be non blindly wary of what "your" hvac guy might offer into your decision.
Well, what is it? Is this guy "your's " because of his knowledge and ability to serve you, or is it something else?
I do agree that there are people in the trades as well as business that aren't worth the space they take up. But when I use, ask information of, or refer any one of the subcontractors I use I am confident in the credentials and business practices that these folks bring to the table.
Do you have experience with this fellow? Has he done well in the past? Is he knowledgable in his trade? Does he run his business in a way that he'll be there to handle any warranty items if and when they come up?
Or is he just some guy that you can call for repairs?
I'm having a hard time understanding this whole thing. You look for a boiler with no idea of what you need to do the job properly and long term. The only thing that seems to be foremost on your mind is that it's small and don't cost much. You did seek out a track record info on a unit which is a damn smart thing to do. However I think the order you've taken is a bit askew especially under the cost and space scenario.
Find out the unit's that will work for you the best in doing the job that needs done-then start in on the room it takes up, cost, and reputation. Anything else is an expense of energy that may or may not work in the long run. I'm thinking it's better to be a bit on the cheap side in that energy consumption.
However, this from a dumb carpenter.
Holy cow. Is all of this relevant? I jokingly refer to myself as a "professional curmudgeon" often, but seriously, you guys on this site are no joke. Like just insane nitpicking. Jeez. Is there any part of you that wishes you could get back the five minutes of your life you spent typing out that completely unecessary post?
It's a long story, but basically I moved away from my old hvac guy that I actually did trust and now have been shopping around for a new one. I've was using a guy I didn't like or trust that much for a little bit, and now am hooking up with a different guy that seems way way better, but that I still don't know that well yet. Does that seem as ridiculous as you were implying or what? Does that explanation satisfy you?
And yes, I have been looking for a boiler with no idea of what I need. Sort of. I know a lot more now than I did two weeks ago. Forgive me for trying to educate myself. Is it really that idiotic of me to come to a site like this and as some general questions to get other people's opinions? I've already given this new hvac guy that I'm working with the specs on the unit, and he'll be doing his heat loss calculations this week, but is it a crime for me to try to finally learn more about the boilers I'm buying?
These are going into rental units. Making financial sense is priority number one. I already stated a couple times that I don't want to get these units if they are not right for the job or pieces of junk. That would obviously end up costing me more money in the long run. I am aware of that fact, duh. You may think it is some kind of moral outrage that I don't want to spend extra money giving someone 4.5 gpm instead of 3.6 or whatever, but I don't care. It's stupid and unecessary and a waste of money. With this type of rental unit in this location, I need to get whatever does the job, and nothing more. This is a very, very basic and obvious situation. If I suddenly decide to go above and beyond and purchase some top-of-the-line mechanicals for this place, I'll catch myself and just stop. Then I will give you a phone call so you can drop by and just shoot me in the head for being a moron. That's what I'll deserve for needlessly throwing away my money like that. I work too hard for my money to almost-literally give it away to strangers for no reason, who will never appreciate or even notice it. It's embarrassing that I even have to explain this.
brother
you can count on me to be right here in your cheering section and I will heed your advice and not try to help anymore.
thanks.
Gotta tell ya, Quietside ain't the way to go. Trust me, you get what you pay for.
One thing not mentioned, do you need a certified boiler for commercial use in your jurisdiction. Will you need a boiler inspection?
Vitodens 100 with an indirect is the best value for the money. You ain't going to like the price.
In your case, I would look at an electric boiler and an electric water heater for each apartment.
Is it necessary? Probably not. But getting free advice doesn't mean that you get to choose how the conversation goes. Yeah, sometimes we can be a bit symantical ... but for accurate communication in this media, sometimes that is necessary.
And it takes less time than the bit of tirade you laid out about your process of choosing your HVAC guy or your personal philosophy of being a landlord with your situation. Hey, everyone has to make a decision. It's not necessarily moronic to choose what you don't ... it's simply just a different decision for different reasons. You obviously have made up your mind and defined what might be moronic for you in your situation. I'm not about to even start judging you on that. You have your reasons and I/we respect that. We have to; we don't know you or your situation well enough to do otherwise.
Calm down. No worries, man. It's all good. We all didn't necessarily join in the convversation only for you ... people have other things to share/say.
I wonder how you fared.
What was the outcome of your search?
here's the spreadsheet ...
let me know if you have questions. Just fill in the colored cells ... everything else should generally 'take care of itself' (famous last words). It's pretty simple, not real detailed and not room by room ... just 'whole house'.
As for sizing your boiler for DHW, you'll have to make some judgements about simultaneous loads (e.g. 1 shower and dishwasher, or 2 showers and the washing machine, etc.) to get a btuh in any hour.
Just remembered ... no floor loss in the calc, either, so you may have to insert a line to accomodate that. Let me know if you have questions about that.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Those are made by Samsung from what I can tell. The problem is that the company Quietside does not authorize internet sales and will not warranty the units, you would have to go through the dealer for problems. They look like good units.
http://www.quietside.com/Quietside/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=97
let me attempt to simplify this for you.
-combicor dual use water heaters with built in coil heat exchangers for heating.
-size baseboard for 130 degree water.
-Pipe in PAP tubing to reduce expansion noise questions.
I think that's the cheapest you'll get out of this with 4 separate heat sources. for 700 sq ft anything combi-boiler is a waste of time unless the apartments are virtually uninsulated, from the heating load standpoint.
though from an efficiency and cost economy standpoint, I would always advocate for a single heat source sized for the whole building (still probably one of the smallest boilers on the market), high efficiency, with indirect(s) or on demands for DHW. Include heat in the rent, reset will limit how much heat they can waste, or add BTU meters for economical billing out to each unit, if allowed by code. Maybe a big phoenix evolution, with low flow showerheads in each unit or something.
Should be cheaper up front, and more efficient to run. Plus the boiler you choose would qualify for tax credits these days, I believe, if it's one of the energy star units. It has to be cheaper than 4 boilers or even 4 combicors, and it's got to have way better lifecycle costing too.
Buying boilers online is a big mistake unless you know how you're going to parts, you have a warranty in writing that won't exclude you as a non-trades purchaser, and you know your installer will do the combustion analysis and setup on a unit he didn't provide.