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Fellow Construction Grunts,
I am reluctant to pose this question to you because it opens me up to a whole line of funny responses at my expense. But, I’m a big boy and I guess I can handle it. I have been in business for a few years now and a large portion of my work is painting (about 60%). However I have marketed myself as a custom trim carpenter. I have found a new love in laying ceramic tile too. I have always priced what I would consider to be a fair and competitive price for me but there are some gray areas that I have questions about. I do not do very much in the new construction industry even though I do have the knowledge and skills for it. My trouble is I’m not very sure how to bid it.
The reason for my question was I was asked to look at a remodel in an office space. A very unique floor plan. Several of the walls are curved and I have to wrap base around it. I gave a price per square foot (I gave $1.25 per sq. ft. Because of the curves mostly) but was told I needed to supply bid for lineal feet (the GC is a friend of mine and he gave me a price range up to $2.50 per lineal ft.). I am usually on target with pricing but I was curious how far off I was on pricing.
I need standard new construction prices for Painting ($1.75 per sq. ft. including materials), Trim out (85¢ to $1.00 per sq. ft, for normal trim outs including crown and chair rail in the dining room and cased windows – nothing fancy), Tile ($6.00 contractor supplying all thin set and grouts) and finally Drywall (I am just curious here, I have no idea how you all price that.
Any help would be appreciated!
Replies
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Are you talking floor feet or wall feet or what....?...
near the stream,
aj
*Several of the walls are curved and I have to wrap base around it. I I don't know where you're at, but 1.25 wouldn't do straight walls around here, let alone curved. What's the radius? Last time I did a curved wall I had to rip the base into strips and laminate them to create the curve, a time consuming proposition. I would T&M anything curved or out of the ordinary.
*Do your homework. Take the time to assay the job. Find all the potential problems. Collect relevant info. Offer something for courtesy bids, that's paying a pro to look at the job. Forget friends.Your posted prices are meaningless in this context.Start by working time and materials and enjoy the work, get paid and do the learning curve.If your green in residential you'll get eaten alive in commercial. Lose your shirt then take a bath. Come back for more. Right? Hope this helps...Dan-O
*Okay ... I guess I was a little vague. The curved baseboard thing in the floor plan only totaled 45 curved board feet of 320 total board feet (This isn't a big thing because it will be painted and I am using MDF base on the curves and will curf cut it if I need too - the radiuses aren't too severe). I priced it as $2.25 per board foot labor only (so you do not have to do the math, $720.00) plus I have charged to pre prime and stain it too. I originally priced the same project for $1.25 per square foot (1570 square feet, totaling $1962.50). So you can see that is a big jump ($1243.75).The prices in the “parenthesis” on my original posting were what I would charge for various items. The statement was: I need standard new construction prices for Painting ($1.75 per sq. ft. including materials), Trim out (85¢ to $1.00 per sq. ft, for normal trim outs including crown and chair rail in the dining room and cased windows – nothing fancy), Tile ($6.00 contractor supplying all thin set and grouts) and finally Drywall (I am just curious here, I have no idea how you all price that. This is where I need to see if I'm on target. My question was for generalities. An example being: If I was asked to trim out a 2300 square foot house (nothing fancy) and charged .90¢ per foot (totaling $2070.00) am I way low or way high? I mostly do rework and have more of hourly rates based on my projected time frame. I'm not making a killing but I am very happy at what I'm doing. Most contractors will not give up this info around here because I am their competition (sorta). Side note: There is a trim guy here that charges .30¢ a square foot and he's a ... well ... not a guy you would offer to take to lunch, if you know what I mean!Is that written better or still confusing?
*You do your work based on the floor sqare feet? And do you measure the home or look at the plans to determine this or does the GC give you the numbers?You are still very vague.....near the stream,aj
*Man....Painting, trim work, drywall, etc... I NEVER charge by the square foot. You charge by the sq ft, and you're gonna get burned (sooner than later). I charge all work by the job. Each house, and each job is different. To charge the same price (as in sq ft pricing) for all houses is not a good idea. Even in painting, there are way too many variables involved. All 2,000 sq ft houses are not the same. If you are charging by the home sq ft, you would be the only one I ever met that did this. WAY too many variables.Only you will know approximately how long certain jobs take you, and how much you charge per hour. If this is a totally new area for you, and you are not familiar with the time involved, T & M this one. Just my opinion...James
*David, Listen to James. Or consider doing it Dan-O's way.Luck
*Dave,If you want, I'll send you my finish list. Basically, I charge a sq.' price to start with for the basics, doors, trim, base then I add a certain amount for kitchen cabinets, crown, stairs etc. Difficult stuff I T&M. Sq.' pricing is OK as a starting point or a ball park, but never for a whole job unless you go way high.
*Thanks for the info! I have heard that starting with a buck a foor is a good "starting" point. Just for clarity, I do figure 99% of my jobs by what I believe I can do per hour. You all do not know how much help you have given me just by responding. I found this websight on Tuesday! It's becoming addictive! Thanks again.I'll be asking and answering to you all again I'm sure, God Bless.David
*David- What you really need to do is to job cost the work that you do. This means that you keep track of the labor and materials that you use for each part of the job. The more detailed this is the better. You can convert this to a square foot or lineal foot number for every type of job you do. You can compare the numbers with your estimate and you will know with certainty where you made and lost money. If you do the same jobs over and over again, you can be very accurate within a short time. If you have a wide range of work, it is much harder but will pay off in the long run. You will still come up short sometimes but at least you will learn from your mistakes.
*David, Forget getting pricing info from othercontractors either locally or via cyberspace.If you want to be working for yourself,you need to gather your own information,I don't think square foot or even lineal footnumbers are helpful except for maybe drywallor budget painters, tile setters etc...Even those trades need to access each jobindividuallly.This may be a repeat of some other guys' advice:Step 1: Get the G.C.,homeowner or architect to let you do the work on a time and materialsbasis. Just start with an hourly rate that roughlyfits your skill level and monetary needs.Step 2: Keep a diligent and accurate record of allyour hours and costs for everything you provideon a regular legal pad or composition book.Add up the figures and then go back over the job and decide what you need to charge on thenext one. Unless you're working in a new developmentof cookie cutter houses you need to price every job with new information.Don't forget to include a per diem figure for your insurance, truck etc...If you look at your records and review the jobsregularly, you should get some information youcan depend on. Forget trying to compete withthe going rate, you're better off getting paidby the hour by a good local G.C.Also - why do you want/need to paint, trim, tilesheetrock etc.. I think you should pick one trade and learn to run it, or get a crew andlearn the G.C. end (really a whole different dicussion)Noel G.
*I find that sq. ft. pricing can be decieving. It does not always take into account things like deliveries, inspections, things not done so you can do your work, items that others contractors have left in your way, not cleaning up their trash. If you work, as I do, where I am often the only one the job site then you have some control over the situation. As far as painting goes sq. ft. may not take into account 2nd story work for exteriors, moving furniture in and out of rooms for repaints, etc. I am sometimes surprised even after 10 years in business, how long it takes just to carry tools in and out, how long it takes to tarp off a room, how long it takes to remove curtians, switch plates etc. For me, the best way to figure some pricing was to work T&M and keep track of how long it took me to do certian tasks on several different jobs. That way I had some idea of how long I took to paint a room, hang a door, hang some drywall, etc. and then develop some prices from there. I still wonder if I have priced things correctly and some times still miss the mark but it has gotten fewer times.
*First of all let me say thank you all for the advice. I do try to base all I do on a time and materials figure that is an acceptable scale for my company. I do figure time for prep and moving furniture and covering up stuff before I paint. Usually after I get my bid together, I add 5% to the total (not always the case though) for things I might have missed. I do put on my contracts disclaimers for various items such as; added work, changes (especially color changes for painting, if they change color halfway through the job, I charge them for the paint bought and the new paint and the labor it takes to repaint what was painted), unseen possible damage (it’s hard to see what’s behind the walls on some jobs) and other things specific to that project. Some times I remind my clients that I send “estimates” and some things could change due to material prices and availability or even equipment rentals. There are hundreds of things that could cause price changes. I do not remember changing my prices but 2 times since I’ve founded Sawdust Inc. but there is always a chance. In my opinion, this is a business first and then it is a trade or skilled profession. It is sometimes difficult (or has been until now, thanks to "Breaktime") to get pricing information. There are so many contractors out there who are so competitive and will not give correct information to us "young guys". We have been taught that bidding on these jobs (new construction) is a sq. ft. thing with options for unusual features (i.e. crown molding in the guest bath ... yes, I've done that). Other contractors get offended that you even ask. I do think there are specific rules that we all have to follow in business. I’ll be safe to bet that we have all lost money on jobs and I’m sure that there have been times we feel guilty taking money for jobs we’ve done well on. I suppose this is a long reply and thank you to your posts but I wanted to let you that I value all of your opinions. I try to prove myself over and over to my clients and other craftsmen because I feel so lucky to be called a “Home Improvement Contractor”. I didn’t want to give you all the opinion that I was a “Bumpkin or Dolt” where our trades are concerned. I have lots to learn and I’m sure there are some of you that have forgotten more than I will know. I am learning … daily!Sincerely,David “Splinky” Polston
*dave.. i looked these over and noticed that sonny had not replied (at lest i didn't see him)..sonnny and i went to PROOF school seminars about the same time.. the PROOF system of estimating and pricing was started by a PAINTING contractor...anyways..AFTER he developed his history of costs he changed it to UNIT PRICING...and each trade uses different units and assemblies..one of the things that stuck in my mind was that all of his labor was based on # of OPENINGS..try it... it seems to be very accurate for PAINTERS..check the archives for PROOF if you want a more detailed deiscussion...Mike
*I'll check it out ... Thanks!
*Mike, I decided to stay out of this one. Incidentally, when I did act as a sub to a GC, I've never priced a bid on anything using square foot or lineal foot pricing. As has been said here before, each job is different. The only way I've seen a square foot pricing structure work is only if it's very basic, and the guys here who use that system, have an extensive list of variable they enploy as additions to the basic price prior to writing the Proposal.My philosophy is that we're not working in a factory producing "X" amount of parts or products per hour. We don't rely on automatic machinery, nor the ideal environment of a factory. Besides, in my 30 years, I've never worked up a bid to go against competitors. I knew what I need and wanted and that's what drove me. Even then, I cut my legs off many times, without having the pressure of biding against others.BTW, with construction being the #1 money generator here, most painters here do use square foot pricing. Also, most painters here go under within a year or two. Mmmmmmmmm! I have to reiterate a stance I have again about our industry. Most business owners, be they painters, cabinet makers, remodelers, framers or whatever, love what they do for a living - the trade aspect. For that reason, they naturally hate dong anything except plying their respective trade(s). I was no different. They hate paperwork and anything associated with it. Proper estimating is in the "realm" of paperwork. I learned - late - that I should change my attitude to paperwork. Once I realized it is nothing more than another "tool". since I like to maintain my "tools" in top notch condition and do't mind spending the time to do just that, I have since viewed estimating and related paperwork, like documenting each procedure or operation of each job, I finally started making the monies I wanted. Guess you could say I become a "businessman." I think, most of the guys here who have been around a while learned the same thing, some sooner than others.In fact, the estimating sheet I created has several vertical columns on the right side. The first is labled ESTIMATED at the top with two columns under it labled Labor and Material. The right section is labled ACTUAL with the same two columns under it. While working on a job, I write next to the ESTIMATED "Labor" column exactly how many hours or part thereof, but under the ACTUAL column. Anything and everything that can be measured, should be measured. That's how data based are not only created, but periodically adjusted.For example, the line item that says "prep paint for painting" might include 5 minutes - that's to open the can, pour it into a bucket or can for brushing, adding some Naptha for quicker drying in alkyd paint, stirring it, and finally ready for applicaton. At even $45 per hour, that 5 minutes represents $3.75 of my time. Add that 5-10 minutes here and there and I've got an extra $15 - $20 per day. That $15 - $20 per day means an extra $75 per week minimum. I'll take that $75 per week every week. How about time to clean brushes? Samething. How about time to take the drop clothes, runners, and other stuff out to the truck - another 30 minutes a day? I also used to work out a "game plan" for each job, and each job required a differeent game plan since each job has it's own nuances.Square foot pricing? No way! I refuse to "generalize" when it's "my" money.
*Thats interesting Sonny, the way you estimate down to the smallest detail. I did my first job in the same manner. I calculated how long it would take to walk the floor joist, sheathing, 500 studs, etc into the house and frame everything. I actully hit the estimate perfectly.I never did another estimate that way. I probably would have a very good unit pricing scheme if I did and have money to retire with too!Still learning,blue
*Blue, I contend that the area we loose money on is labor - none of us are cheap, or should be. That's why I address anything that involves labor. My estimate sheet even includes a line item entitled "Client Nuances" If I know she/he is a talker or picky - that's fine as long as I determine that "nuance" up front. Then an extra percentage or # of hours goes onto the estimate form.I started doing that after the 1st or 2nd client (we've all had them) who continually asks: "Is that what it's gonna look like?" "No. It's not going to look like that." And I have to stop working and explain that I intend to do this or that when I get to that particular operation, like: "I have to sand those filled nail holes before I can prime the casing. I don't just paint over those 'lumps'." I had one lady that must have asked that type of question about 20 times in one day.Since I do a lot of work for repeats clients, I know in advance what their idiosyncrasies are. what I'd like to say to them is: "You talk, ask, stand 3' away from me all the while I'm working, etc., is fine with me. The price just keeps going up.When it comes to the materials, I use that also to pick up a few extra bucks. Eg., even if I only have to install 8 feet of base, I'll include $3 for nails. $3 is my material minimum. Needing 1/8 tube of caulk to a vanity top/backsplash/wall is charged at $5.Keep iin mind, I don't have to type in each labor operation for each job, since I have those items already printed on my estimate form on the computer. So it's just a matter of applying the applicable hours or fraction thereof on what ever is involved for a particular job. One more thing. Even a 5-10 minute item is usually charged at 1/4 hour, like installing a door bumper or tightening up a loose lockset, cleaning a brush, etc.That counters our natural inclination to underestimate the individual operations involved with any particular job. Most of us tend to be to optimistic - then Mr. Murphy (Murphy's Law) taps on our shoulder.
*(I would love to see that estimate sheet!)
*David, perhaps I should explain further. My "estimate" sheet is not like a spreadsheet, listing all possible labor operations. What I meant is the items printed on it are those typical items we often forget to include in each job, and a reminder to me for some of the above items I mentioned.
*I did get that out of your post. What I was asking myself (although, I posted it) was "What am I missing on my proposals?" I need to make one of those for myself too. I don't believe I have ever thought of how long it takes to clean out a brush or wrap up electrical cords and air hoses and such. Heck, just cleaning my power tools with a leaf blower every night takes a few minutes. That is a great idea.
*David, either post or email me with your Fax # and I'll fax you my estimating sheet and a few more things to consider when computing any estimate. Also let me know the typical types of jobs and/or trades you do.
*Sonny, in my area (KY) you should use a min. of $35 per hour if you want to make some profit (will need to take another look at the 35 due to gas prices). Knowing the time its takes you to do different work (hanging doors, trimming windows, wainscoting and etc plus % for slippage)you should do all right. By knowing your cost per man/hour, you can work up an easy way to estimate work by the lf, sf or by the opening.Wayne
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Fellow Construction Grunts,
I am reluctant to pose this question to you because it opens me up to a whole line of funny responses at my expense. But, I’m a big boy and I guess I can handle it. I have been in business for a few years now and a large portion of my work is painting (about 60%). However I have marketed myself as a custom trim carpenter. I have found a new love in laying ceramic tile too. I have always priced what I would consider to be a fair and competitive price for me but there are some gray areas that I have questions about. I do not do very much in the new construction industry even though I do have the knowledge and skills for it. My trouble is I’m not very sure how to bid it.
The reason for my question was I was asked to look at a remodel in an office space. A very unique floor plan. Several of the walls are curved and I have to wrap base around it. I gave a price per square foot (I gave $1.25 per sq. ft. Because of the curves mostly) but was told I needed to supply bid for lineal feet (the GC is a friend of mine and he gave me a price range up to $2.50 per lineal ft.). I am usually on target with pricing but I was curious how far off I was on pricing.
I need standard new construction prices for Painting ($1.75 per sq. ft. including materials), Trim out (85¢ to $1.00 per sq. ft, for normal trim outs including crown and chair rail in the dining room and cased windows – nothing fancy), Tile ($6.00 contractor supplying all thin set and grouts) and finally Drywall (I am just curious here, I have no idea how you all price that.
Any help would be appreciated!