Replies

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Mar 22, 2001 12:09am | #1

   *
   sign up for a night course in drafting .... and one in architectural drafting & design...

   you can pick up the basics there...

   either a tech school or a U. should offer the courses you want...

1. 
   Dan_Morrison | Mar 22, 2001 12:44am | #2

   *Steve,When I started out as a carpenter someone gave me a book as a Christmas present called The Carpenter's Manifesto by Jeffery Ehrlich and Marc Mannheimer. (Maybe since I was learning to be a carpenter and looked somewhat like a hippy, they thought it would be a good fit...)It's probably not worth the twenty bucks it cost, but there is a small section on drawing that probably is worth the tewnty bucks. But I'm sure that for twenty bucks you can get a better book about drawing. Hmmm... what am I trying to say?I suppose I'm trying to say that there are a couple of simple tricks that will open a whole new world to you. All of a sudden you will be Jones-ing for a T-square and triangles and compasses and all that stuff. Recently I got a drafting table with a sliding straight edge mounted on four rollers and piano wire that tripled my efficiency.Drawing what you're about to build not only conveys an artisanship, but allows you to actually build things on paper and work out problem areas before you write a check to the lumber store. Inexpensive CAD programs never give you enough control over the finished product. It's nice to show the client a drawing and have it reflect exactly what the finished piece will look like.Have a look here and here to see what I mean. (You need to let the page load, then mouseover the pictures to see the drawings).You'll notice a slight discrepancy in the kitchen drawing in that when I drew it the clients specified that the cabs didn't extend all the way to the ceiling, after the drawings were approved they had me extend the cabs to the ceiling. I didn't bother to re-draw it.But yes, do take this step! drawing acurately = planning. Planning = fewer screw ups. Fewer screw ups = more money in your pocket and happier clients.Here's an addition I'm about to build for some nice folksDan

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Mar 22, 2001 01:00am | #3

   *dan....first.... you got a great web site... well worth the visit......i love the way it reveals the before and after.. ....i used a board from '69 to '97now i use Chief Architect.. and i draw in this scale:12" = 1 ft.no way would i go back to my board.. two months ago i took it out of the office and stuck it out it in the garage to make way for another cad work station...one of the great freedoms of CAD is that i can keep as many design projects going as i want... i don't have to take the current drawing off the board and re-register another one .....i think that mechanical drawing and drafting is a great way to learn the concepts, but cad is the way to do finish drawings... b but hey , whadda i no ?

1. 
   jcallahan | Mar 22, 2001 01:34am | #4

   *Steve, try "Architectural Graphics" by Frank Ching. It was the text for my technical illustratration class. Easy to understand ....think you would find it helpful.

1. 
   brisketbean_ | Mar 22, 2001 03:51am | #5

   *Mike; Tell me about your cad program, cost, learning curve, and how is it on intersecting ellipses and radi? I am shopping for something easy to learn, that i can get 3d drawings from.

2. 
   Mike_Smith | Mar 22, 2001 04:21am | #6

   *bb... email me at work ... you can download Chief in a demo... the only limitations are 2 hour session... no printing .. and no saving..Vs. 7. is stronger than ever on cad.. the 3d is tops....about $900, and a good computer....Vectorworks seems better for multi-stations... and AutoCad is still the leader in terms of mathematical drawing.. but the combo of 3d.. rendering, and cad moves Chief to the fron....my guess... your personality... 3 months learning curve.. i was doing working drawings in a month... but i'm still learning daily.. and the user group is world -wide... way beyond me....they post about 50 messages a day....

3. 
   Tom_K | Mar 22, 2001 05:01am | #7

   *Computers are just a tool, any lack of artisanship is the fault of the user. Computer renderings can look as cheesy or artistic as you wish them to be.Computer rendering is an art,and does require skill.Of course, professional results require the right tools. Here's onewww.lightscape.com/gallery/body_customerimages.asp

4. 
   brisketbean_ | Mar 22, 2001 05:40am | #8

   *Tom; are all of the images drawings, and none of them photos? Who did the drawings?

5. 
   Jeff_J._Buck | Mar 22, 2001 07:21am | #9

   *I do my very basic drawings of cabinets and such with graph paper and an architects rule. Pick a scale that'll fit it on the big sheet of graph paper and start with the box shapes...then angle off them for the 3D look. Try an artists store for orthographic graph paper....had a supply from somewhere...and can't find any local now. The ortho graph has the "3D 45deg. lines" printed lightly so you just trace them and you box is now 3D. For my stuff...real simple as I said...I've gotten alot of compliments. I make hand drawings for most of the stuff I build. Last drawing was a before and after of adding a powder room into out of an open pantry. Had depth of perception and everything! I've looked to buy a computer program and haven't found an entry level one to meet my needs. At this point...anything over $250 would be a waste...and there's not much out there for less. Jeff

6. 
   Rein_Taul | Mar 22, 2001 07:25am | #10

   *These books are getting pretty old fashioned.One of my favourites is:Rendering With Pen And InkRobert W. GillThames and Hudsonc 1973

7. 
   Pete_Draganic | Mar 22, 2001 04:04pm | #11

   *Steve,Any drawing I do goes on 11x17 graph paper 1/8" in 1" grid. Be sure to get the stuff with the light blue lines so they don't photocopy. This paper size is easy to have copied anywhere like Kinkos because it does not run over into oversized copies. I buy mine at art stores.Also the old stack of previously bid prints in the basement and much time reading over them has given me what I know about architectural drawing. Do not freehand draw.What kind of project are you drawing? I would be glad to send you some samples of whatever I have laying around that I've drawn, for reference.BTW, In Ohio, I can only prepare drawings for residential work. Anything commercial has to be done by a licensed architect.Pete

8. 
   Mr._Pita | Mar 22, 2001 05:29pm | #12

   *You might want to look at Intellicad. I've only played with it so far, but it's about as powerful as anything I've needed. I got it as a free download - it's shareware. I believe the free version doesn't do 3D rendering, and some other things that I wouldn't use, but the full version includes it, and only cost about $200 - I think just under. Go to cnet.com, and search "Intellicad".

9. 
   Jeff_J._Buck | Mar 23, 2001 12:37am | #13

   *I'll take a look, thanks. I was about to buy the little $50 program from Best Buy that did real basic stuff...I played with one at a buddies place and redesigned his gameroom plans...woulda worked ok for my simple needs.....then I read the box for system requirements....and found my "top of the line" Gateway Comp...a few years old....with the 133 chip wasn't a big enough system to run it on! So....for now I'm just getting info as we plan to upgrade the old dino sooner than later! Can't believe what we paid for this thing about 4 yrs ago....and the low end $1000 or so models now kick it's computer ass! Jeff

10. 
    CaseyR_ | Mar 23, 2001 03:50am | #14

    *I vaguely remember some time back (maybe a couple of years ago) someone said that they had a program that took a CAD drawing and introduced enough wiggle and variation to sorta make it look like a hand done drawing. I tried to do a search and all the search terms I could think of gave me way too many hits - like "hand drawing" gave me so many that going back 100 hits and I was still in March 2001...Does anyone remember what that program was? Steve - there have been a lot of discussions of the merits of various CAD programs so you might do a search and read some of the comments. There was even a free program that was mentioned that some thought was pretty good.

11. 
    Scott_Underwood | Mar 23, 2001 04:09am | #15

    *The program is called "Squiggle". It's pretty easy to use but takes a bit of playing with to get a good look. Hint: if you do use it, write down your settings as you work and then when you get the right "look", most of your next drawings are easy.About the CADD vs. Hand drawn. My high school students just finished Skills USA VICA state competition. The Architectural contest had only one part of board drafting and the mechanical had no board drafting, only CADD.

12. 
    Tom_K | Mar 23, 2001 08:53pm | #16

    *brisketbean, Yes those are all renderings. they are in the customer image gallery, done by users of that software. Look at these images. the top one's a rendering and the bottom one's a photo.The renderings were done before the building was built.www.lightscape.com/Contest98/body_lealcomparison.asp

13. 
    Tom_Moller | Mar 25, 2001 09:10pm | #17

    *Somehow our culture has evolved to the point where a lot of people can operate cad programs while knowing very little about drafting conventions such as line weight, placement of dimensions, sections, auxiliary views, etc.I would suggest going to the library or used book store and finding an OLD high school drafting text for background and reference. Most of them had a chapter or two pertaining to architectural drawing.I agree that hand-drawn sketches do look more classy than CAD prints but only if you have some artistic ability. But how valuable is your time?CAD is much much faster after you get past the initial bit of learning how to use the program. And if the customer wants to change something, it's so easy to copy or move details...or whole rooms!If you are drawing by hand, and your competitor is using CAD, he will make more drawings, better, faster, cheaper...The customer will form the opinion that your competitor is more high tech and/or more professional...His overhead will be lower than yours, and he will get the job.You may be a better craftsman, but think of your CAD skills as a SELLING TOOL. Image may not be everything, but it counts for a lot.

14. 
    Curt_Palm | Mar 28, 2001 02:50am | #18

    *I have to agree with the guy who recommended Frank Chin's book Architectural Graphics. He also has an alder book called drawing, and one called Design Drawing that cover perspective in more detail than Architectural Graphics.But don't give up on Cad. I agree that Cad drawings reflect less personality and more sterility than hand drawings. I do the presentation graphics at the architectural firm I work at, and in addition to CAD I study oil painting. As I learn more about composition, light and shadow, the 3D drawings become less sterile and more lively. Perhaps next they'll reflect my personality. CAD 3-D is like any art medium: it takes a long time to learn the nuances that create a drawing that is far from ordinary.

15. 
    Curt_Palm | Mar 28, 2001 02:51am | #19

    *I have to agree with the guy who recommended Frank Ching's book Architectural Graphics. He also has an older book called drawing, and one called Design Drawing that cover perspective in more detail than Architectural Graphics.But don't give up on Cad. I agree that Cad drawings reflect less personality and more sterility than hand drawings. I do the presentation graphics at the architectural firm I work at, and in addition to CAD I study oil painting. As I learn more about composition, light and shadow, the 3D drawings become less sterile and more lively. Perhaps next they'll reflect my personality. CAD 3-D is like any art medium: it takes a long time to learn the nuances that create a drawing that is far from ordinary.

16. 
    Tom_K | Mar 28, 2001 06:12am | #20

    *I would like to make another point in faver of computer rendering. Although well done hand drawings have a certain quality to them. Isn't the ultimate purpose of the drawing to accurately represent what the finished project will look like? By using a computer, choices such as wood type or paint color can be easily changed and explored. Also, using a program such as Lightscape will allow you to veryAccurately see how a room will be lit using known lighting fixtures. And by knowing the orientation of the house and its location, the position of the sun can be calculated for any time of day and day of the year. This is very similar to the heliodon featured in the march issue, only done by computer.It seems to me, that supplying the customer a more realistic representation of the final result, will allow for more informed decisions to be made.

17. 
    CaseyR_ | Mar 29, 2001 02:20am | #21

    *Thanks, Scott, I would have been searching Breaktime archives forever to have found that... I did a quick Internet search and found that they have a web site at:http://aay.com/squiggle.htm

2. 
   Steve_Kuhl | Mar 29, 2001 02:24am | #22

   *
   As my business grows I find an increasing need to present ever more complicated and stylish drawings to my remodeling customers. I find that most of the CAD programs out there end up rendering rather stirile, cheesy images. That plus the fact I believe a hand drawn plan conveys a certain level of artisanship that a computer never could. Does anyone know of a good basic book on learning to draw architectural details? For example, I would like to be able to draw a wall of cabinetry with a fireplace in basic three dimensions. It doesn't have to be fancy, just sincere and understandable. I want our customers to have a rough concept of what we, the builder, are invisioning. I also want to look professional. Does anyone have any advice on learning to draw or the general presentation of a remodeling proposal?