Finishing up a kitchen for a client this week. It was not a full kitchen job, he painted the built-in cabinets after we tweaked them and now were going to hang the new doors.
Today I had to hook the new cook top back up. I put my helper upstairs with the tester and went down to the panel to kill power.
There were four 240v breakers. I had to kill two of them to fully shut power off to the cooktop. More interestingly, doing this killed all the power in the kitchen and the garage.
I dont know who hooked this up, but they win. I’ve never seen anything so odd.
I guess I can assume that the 110v was on the other side of the double breakers, but I was pretty surprised to see the cooktop on two seperate sets of doubles.
Family…..They’re always there when they need you.
Replies
""I guess I can assume that the 110v was on the other side of the double breakers, but I was pretty surprised to see the cooktop on two seperate sets of doubles.""
Something sounds wrong about that .
So what did you find when you took the cover off of the panel and inspected the cables connected to the two breakers in question?
I am betting on a #6 / 3 or so cable connected to one pole each on the two 2 pole breakers working in combination with a botched shared neutral circuit.
Incidently ---- what size are those two breakers?
Needs work no matter what.
Jim
Sometimes it's better to not open up someone elses can of worms. I didn't open the panel. I told the HO it was really wrong and for now it's staying.It's an old panel and I can't remember the breaker size. I could fix it, I just don't know if I want to get into that panel.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Sounds like liability issue brewing if something happens here in the future.
You know there is a problem, and may be the last guy to touch it.
I would at least notify the HO in writing as to your findings, as limited as they may be. Send Certified and keep copy and signature card somewhere safe.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
You raise a good point and as anal as I am I probably will open the panel when I go back on Friday. Thanks
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Wouldn't I be more liable if I open the panel?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I don't know if you would be more liable if you open the panel, but the the more you touch, the more you own... so I wouldn't open the panel unless you were prepared to do something about it.
As for putting a notice in writing, this has been discussed before with varried opinions. Here's mine: There's no better way to proove that you were aware of a safety issue and did nothing about it than to write it down and give it to the homeowner. Maybe the wording you chose didn't make it quite clear about the extent of the danger (maybe because you didn't know) and then you become liable for that. No, I think this is case where the less WRITTEN, the better, but I would definitely warn them verbally (and just assume that they're not secretly taping every conversation).
I have heard of this sort of argument before and been in this scenario many times.While I always agree that a paper trail can be your best friend if things go awry, what I don't understand is why the next general recommendation here is for a CARPENTER to take the cover off the panel? Why would a court care what electrical recommendation a carpenter makes? What business does a carpenter have poking around inside the panel.In the situation at hand, I agree with MSA1 that there is no need to open the panel, that is the job of an ELECTRICIAN. All MSA1 should do is to put it in writing that it is his belief that there may be an electrical issue and that he refuses to hook up any appliances on that circuit until an electrician gives the okay. Put that in writing in signed duplicate then let the HO decide whether to bring in an electrician or hook it up himself. Heck, as long as you got a signature and there's no photo crew around you could hook it up for him then lie in court just as long as the paper trail says you didn't ;-)DC
I am not an electrician...but I am curious...
were the two circuits feeding the 220 right next to each other on the same side of the panel?
If so, I am wondering if they are supposed to be clipped together. I have two 120v/20A circuit breakers for my kitchen that are clipped together, one representing the wall outlets and the other being stove/dishwasher/garbage disposal. I do not know why the electrician did this but your situation sorta sounds like someone took the clip off the breaker switches then someone tied into one of the legs.
Hopefully an electrician can chime in.
DC
The two breakers were on opposite sides of the panel but evidently on the different phases.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I reserve the right to be corrected by the EL guys who really know what they're talking about, but I think opposite sides of the panel typically means that they are on different legs, not different phases.BillH, is this right?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think opposite sides of the panel typically means that they are on different legs, not different phases.
Typically "different legs" means different phases.
If the breakers are DIRECTLY opposite eachother on a 2-phase panel than they usually are on opposite phases if the panel is designed that way.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Yes, you are correct, here's an excerpt I found explaining whyThe most common question seems to involve why it would be improper to call the three-wire single phase circuit two phase. We could then call the 90 degree thing four phase, and all would be right with the world. Take a pie, slice it into x symmetrical wedges that all reach the center point and you have an x-phase system. In my opinion, the most important reason for differentiating the two-wire and three-wire single phase from polyphase systems is this: a single phase circuit, center tapped or not, cannot produce the rotating magnetic field needed to start an ordinary induction motor. The field simply alternates with the applied voltage frequency. With 180 degree separation, no clear direction is established. Polyphase phase systems provide this rotating magnetic field because of the smaller angles. Single phase motors exist, but they use added tricks to get them started.from here http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=777
Common terminology for 120/240 is Legs.But they are also phases. But that gets into a number of confusing points. There is clearly 180* difference between the 2 120 legs. But as the OP mentioned they it won't work with multiphase motors. So legs are more commonly used..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill,So while it is correct to call a typical US residential service "3 wire single phase", it is actually acting as a 2 phase relationship on 240v circuits?Is this right?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Almost. It can only be called 2 phase on the 120.You have one hot, with respect to the neutral, and the other hot, with respect to the neutral moving on oposited directions (ie, 180 out of phase).With a strict 240 circuit you only have 2 conductors. And that gives you one voltage or phase. There is no 2nd one to compare it with..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I used to call them legs and I was corrected by both my electricians. So now I call them phases (I want the sparkys to think i'm cool).
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
You didn't leave it on did you?
Yeah, I put everything back the way I found it.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.