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I’m planning to use 4-0 or 350mc wire for an 1800′ wire run from the meter to the house. Any info on connectors, sources of wire, direct burial advice, ect. would help. Thanks- Stan
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Stan save yourself a lot of pain and time. Go to your utility, get their advice and use it. While you could get very good general info here there are area specific things that they will be able to help you with. They should give you the help for free or for no more than a nominal fee.
By the way, I assume you have done the cost analysis of extending the utility service vs using such a long drop. If not you should before committing to the installation.
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Stan,
I burried 150' of wire from the meter to my house about five years ago, all with a Master Electrician's assistance. Low and behold, in the dead of Winter, -30F, at 2:00 A.M. the boiler quit running, the clocks went out and the lights that were on dimmed.... My underground power went South! I paid to have the exact spot of the failure located with a radio locator; dug it up; and all three wires were melted through and shorted. The second time I put it in pipe to limit the exposure to moisture and abrasion. Even black poly water pipe works fine and is worth the investment. Another thing to keep in mind is that the longer you run away from the meter to the place you're going to use the juice, the more YOU will pay. Most utility companies will install everything up to the meter at their expense. Also there is some line loss between the meter and your main panel, which YOU will pay for on your monthly bill.
Why such a long run from the meter? Access? Aesthetics? I'd consider finding a way to get it closer to the main panel.
*Stan, I agree with Fred,that much wire is a utility company job! Have them put the transformer near the house, not 1800' away.....
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Check out this web site for your wire size. I think your will find it to be excessive. Your cost to have the utility bring it in at 12000v will probably be less than the cost of the wire to you at 240.
http://www.mikeholt.com/volt_drop.html
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Stan,
You want a power company transformer.
Check my rough calcs, but I get a 68.4v drop (28.5%) in 4/0 AU wire over that distance for 240v.
Talk to the area engineer for the power company. It will probably hurt. Set poles may go for about $2k a hole. Where is the nearest transformer on their line?
Toolbear
*I have had the power co engineer here- they recommend the 350 mc direct burial. The cost of them doing the line ext is more than the house. I have looked at kicking the voltage up w/ transformers, but that looks about the same cost wise as heavy wire with more complexity. You are correct about voltage drop in 4-0 wire at 200A, but with propane appliances and energy effic. lighting - max load is about 40A running the AC.Thanks- Stan
*Stan, I guess I don't understand your situation. There must be a high voltage line very near to where you are planning to start with this 1800' of cable. Why can't you bury the high voltage line and install a transformer near your house to drop it down to normal household voltage instead of running 1800' of 240 volt ??
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Stan;
What size main breaker will you have on the service? This is what you need to do the voltage drop calcs with per NEC. I am unaware of any homes with a 40A main breaker, and would think this would be a poor investment.
I'd make certain you know what the power company is REQUIRED to provide to a customer. I've had to "arm wrestle" with them in the past over what the "recommend" and what the Public Utility Commission Tariff requires them to provide. (California)
here, I have provided a trench, 3 or 4" conduit, and junction boxes every 300 feet. The power co then comes in an pulls the wire. Depending on the current tariff, there used to be 350 free feet. Now just 75.
As others have pointed out, I'd have them run high voltage to a transformer much closer to the home. Why is this not workable?
I am wondering why the meter is not at the house, but is 1800 ft away.
Give us some more info.
G'luck
*stan,No, no, no.You can't know what you're talking about....Never would what you are proposing fly with me.No way, nope, nada,J
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Given what all that copper is going to cost and that you will then have the privlige of sending more of your money to the power company each month, have you considered going "off the grid" for your power? If your site is suitable for wind, micro-hydro, or solar power you could end up ahead of the game.
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Stan, I've got a 540' run from the street to my house. I went underground.
The power company put in 4-0. I HAD to use their 4-0 wire. They would not accept wire from another source. Cost me about $1100 to have them put it in. The meter is at my house. The 1600 feet (one-3", two-2")of conduit was about another $1000 for materials.
They wanted the 4-0 in a 4" pipe, we went round and round, they finally agreed to let me put in 3". I installed a 3" on one side of the trench for the electricity, and two 2" conduits on the other side of the trench, one for telephone and one for cable/fiber, etc.
The memory is fuzzy, but I thought the 4-0 may have been borderline for my installation. 200amp. I recall a few back and forth conversations with the power company, I thought they might have wanted me to up the wire one size.
*Listen, this is not an issue of cost here!! You want the tranformer within 150 feet of your house!! Otherwise turning on a large shop vac will cause your lights to dim, Mercury vapor lights to go out, fluorescents to flicker, etc. The voltage drop without the transformer near the house will cause everything in your house to run poorly and burn up quickly. In undervoltage situations every motor in your house will work harder, hotter, and eventually die.I know of this first hand. My house is 600' from a common transformer. When my neighbors refrigerators turn on, any lights we have dimmed will flicker. Anything connected to a dimmer will not maintain a constant light output due to fluctuating loads at the transformer. Electricity will take the path of least resistance - period! Your house would now be the largest resistance on the road!! Good luck running a 3 hp table saw!-Rob
*Go Solar, it would be a lot less expensive. What are your loads, I could give you a ballpark est. Just don't say you are goin to heat with electricity.
*19882000'...dug trench for utility....they laid high tension line and set transformer...then undergound 4-4-2 wire by me to meter on home...Cost $3500 for utility...$500 for back hoe....$1500 for transformer to main panel with one receptacle set next to it.J
*I guess I'm fortunate in that I have zero problems with my power. The street transformer is recent, but I'm not knowlegeable enough to know if that has anything to do with the "quality" of source. My parents upgraded last year from 60A to 200A service. Their house is about 70 feet from the street, the transformer 1 pole down the street. They still get light flicker when they turn on the house vac and kitchen lights dim when the fridge or microwave are turned on. Fridge and micro are on own circuits. Small ranch house, 14ga wire. It's all beyond my knowledge and paygrade. I'll sit back and be grateful for my good fortune.
*Stan:Boy, you sure did stir something up!But I'm still a little confused why you want grid power at high cost for 40A loads. I do understand that sometimes the cost of having the utility company extend a line is very high. But, in this case it sounds almost like what you are trying to service is a cabin in the woods. Is that so?If so you probably would be better off from both cost and reliability views to use a blended system of solar(PV) and a low speed generator. These are very common throughout North America and properly designed will handle the loads I envision from your comments.How about some more feedback?
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I didn't intend to stir things up- this was the recommendation of the power co engineer, and checked with my calcs(I thought 4-0 Ok, they want 350). Solar would be great- more money though- except for running AC. I was more interested in sources to buy large wire, and differnces between hydralic crimped conn. and bolt conn. Looks like couduit is the way to go rather than dierct burial
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On this board, no intention is required to stir things up. Everyone is grateful I am sure.
Rich Beckman
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BE ALERT FOR STAN'S NEXT POST.....O.K. Guys, I got the wire buried and hooked up. Anybody got a good cheap source for 80 volt appliances??
*OK I have date but she's going to have to wait. 1800ft of direct burial aluminum wire (4 wire by the way your first means of disconnect is got to be by your meter) is bad news. First, you'll have to bury it deep and I mean deep because one of these days you'll want to landscape and you will hit it, but that is'nt the big thing, direct burial aluminum will nick and nick and nick when you backfill and put all those beautifull rocks back in the trench. About 2 or 3 years from now when you have 240volts at your house and when your A.C. would'nt work then you can try to find the spot where that nick has now become a major blowout. This is why the power company does not want to do this job the right way because if you do it you own the wire and all the misery that comes with maintaining it. If they did it it would be their problem and cost. Why not go over head if you have to do this? The wire size will be reduced because the wire is now in free air as opposed to underground and all those heat problems and you never have to worry about maintaince. Just thought I would shake the tree so to speak and see what everyone thought of this idea.f Bury poles so many feet apart and do it, no trencher, less labor, and the cost of the wire will be less with a greater chance of getting a 2 percent voltage drop. Tom M.
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I am about 300' to the transformer, with a 400A service. Noticed the lights in the house dimming when the table saw went on. House is on 200A panel, Shop is on separate 125A service which divides off at the 400A panel/meter.
Called the power company. "Well sir, you need to call an electrician". "No sir, there is no such thing as a 400A service". Finally got tech support. They came out an installed a logging voltmeter. One week later they picked it up and did a data dump. Came back with voltages for neutral and both legs for 7 days.
Sure 'nuf the neutral was floating high when demand spiked, plus the legs were not stable. Looked at the pole with an infrared gun, neutral connector was showing higher temp than others.
Same day, crew comes out and replaces transformer. problem solved. (Actually, this was on December 31, so they were getting probably double time and a half, perhaps thats why I got the prompt response.)
keep in mind that the power co is required to provide you with a specific voltage under the amperage of your service.
A
*Nicked wires??? Take away the electrician's license...I bury 100' at every home I build...b no problems...not even close!...And I expect the wire will last hundreds of years...at least 50!!1800 feet is always done with transformer at the home...There is no other way besides remote solar, generator and or living without power...J
*stan,Print out this topic and see a different utility rep!!!J
*Stan,For your troubles here and when you try to buy the 80v appliance motors...you are cordially invited to the First Fall Fest and I will personally slap you as I hand you your Guiness.J
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Fred, Stan -
Gen. set anyone?
Jeff Cooper used to run Gunsite in AZ off a Lister generator. The power co. wanted 30K to extend service to him and he was not about to pay it.
Toolbear
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Stan maybe I'm missing something here but why the 1800 ft wire run????????
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Jack -
Direct burial, 27" deep trench. Three inches of sand down, then cables, then five inches of sand top cover, then backfill. Run it in conduit under the road and parking lot and by way of the panel.
'Course, most contractors dispense the sand with a shaker and there come the rocks.
ToolBear
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Bill,
Because this isn't a real post.....Stan's just seeing if he can tease us all into a Breaktime Breakdown....
J
*ToolGrizzley,Your climbing the wrong tree with your last post....That's right Grizzley's don't climb...Anyway...If someone needs to know trench spec's, then they need to know a b hole lot more!!!b Transformeron,J
*OH, if life this week isn't bad enought.b Have the mixer nothing to put in it blues tonight
*I could email you the label off my beer...J
*Gave up on beer takes to long liquror is faster have you tried the pink grapefruit for a mixer?
*Besides the label is just a tease
*Well now I am confused! Stan when you first posted I thought you were interested in how to get electricity from the grid to your house 1800' away. So, I went with that.Then you indicated that all you were after was about 40A because you used propane, etc so I went with a small place thta doesn't need full service. Also, that the utility wanted more than the house was worth. I assumed your "AC" was Alternating Current or a small Air Conditioner. So I went with theidea that it was a cabin type house.Now you say solar is more expensive than the extension and all you reallly want is a cheap source of wire??In the midst of my confusion I really need to know where in the world you are, climate, and anticipated loads(full domestic, shop, just lights and tools, or what).Basically, for long runs like you are contemplating it is very unusual for grid power to be cost effective for cabin style operations. For full domestic or shop type operations you just have to pay the bill. The service line needs to be extended to your house either by the utility or by you. The only significant cost difference will be labor. You might get a qualified contractor for less than the utility will charge. But some of that will be offset by the lower cost of materials from the utility.In any case technical specs like you mentioned in your last post are best answered by the utility. Their inspector will have to be satisfied or they won't energize the conductor. Personally, unless you live in an area that has stable soils and a very shallow frost depth I don't like buried service over that length. I've seen too much money spent doing winter maintenance at -40F(or C I guess)because the line failed due to any number of problems.Well I've been sucked into a long-winded post for what??
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Stan,
The voltage drop in 1800' of 4/0 shows while he suggested getting up into the mil sizes. (It won't work at 240v.)
Did he suggest Cu or Al and quote prices? I usually try to be sitting when I hear the prices. That much closer to floor.
Direct burial vs conduit
Same cost for the trench. Same cost for feeders. What is the cost difference between sand and conduit for you? You are looking at 3" for the 4/0. I have not looked at the size needed for 350mil.
Our direct burials are normally in 8" of sand (27" dep trench, 3" sand down, cables, 5" sand over, backfill & conduit under roads, etc.)
While you are at it, run a commo chase for low voltage stuff for the future. I use white 3" drain (the solid stuff). It's the cheapest 3" hole you can buy. A pull cord would be nice.
What about water lines?
TB
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I'm planning to use 4-0 or 350mc wire for an 1800' wire run from the meter to the house. Any info on connectors, sources of wire, direct burial advice, ect. would help. Thanks- Stan