I’m “considering” doing the foundation work on the additions to my circa 1680 house in the spring being that I cant find a decent concrete guy and I’ve had my eyes on those insulated forms for a while now.
It’ll just be foundation walls..no basement …and a 30×30 garage/shop area.
I see Andy Engel has even written an article on them from personal experiance.
HAs anyone else installed them? What is the difficulty or ease rating?
Any info would be appreciated.
Be a flat solid foundation
Namaste
Andy
“As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can’t see how it is.”
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 3/13/2003 5:49:09 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Replies
Really, really really easy, Andy. Great way to go. Rick Arnold has some in a book at Tanton too. I've got a few pictures from the show where he demonstrated. Maybe I'll post them tomorrow if you remind me. Near bedtime now.
Methinks the good stuff like this gets bumped to the bottom of the activity because of the political and Larry crap being so active.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff
I'm reminding you as you asked me to, to post some info from the show about ICF's. Been thinking about it all night especially after watching the video that Andy Engel has on this FHB Home site of him doing his basement. Even wrote him an Email requesting a narrowed down hunt for the right book (there are a lot apparently) or video I could order.
and you're right about the political and L crap. I figure the further into the warmer weather we get the less L stuff there'll be.
One other question about the show.....did you get to check out Ditra? YOu know, the fabric for tile work? I bought all they had at a HD on my way back from Canada as they havent any around my neck of the woods. I think I'm short about 25 sq ft..ugh to do the bathroom in my old house I'm now working on.
It "can" be ordered but the ordering charge alone is about $50 then its about $2.00 a sq ft for the fabric. was about $1.70 in Canada.
Thanks Piff
Namaste
andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy
I did 'Quad-lock' ICF for my basement about 6 months ago (same story - couldn't find a decent mason) . It had a real quick learning curve. Hanging rock was a little different- you have to screw into plastic thing-a-ma-bobs that easily strip out . I have resigned myself to rubber cove base because I don't have any sort of nailer where I need it. Be sure and check out other brands as I suspect there are better ones out there. Pump truck sure would be nice (none on the island here, used a trip bucket hung off an excavator). Not sure what to say about termites as we don't have that problem in Alaska.
Depending on your blocks:
Mine have about 1/2" of foam over the plastic, so I can cut that back and screw a 1/2 plywood strip to the forms. If yours don't have that much just cut out the foam down by the floor and glue in a strip of 1x material for a nailer. The drywall over the 1x will also help hold things in place.
Robert
I use furring srtrips over the foam blocks to attach the drywall or paneling to. Thjat creates a void for wiring without having to rout out soo much foam that I paid for to be insulation..
Excellence is its own reward!
Just to reiterate...I'm just doing a foundation wall.no basement.just crawl space. Ya know...three feet below grade.
a"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I knew that but was responding, in gerneral to the subject. In your case, I would be planning to parge coat it after a bonding agent application. Mix same acriyl 60 to mud .
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff....nice photos.thanks!
Andy E wrote me an Email and basically said the same thing you did about the steel studs.
Hopefully the show in R.I will have some ICF demos and maybe I'll be free to attend. Another suggestion of Andy's
I really like your idea of the foam against the rubble rock...What a great idea in this instance.
Occasionally you do come up with a good idea....lol
Be well friend
Namaste
andy
PS...Just bought an Olympia C-5050 digital camera off of Ebay to arrive this Tuesday....Hoping to post lots of mischief here once I learn to use it : )"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Oh Boy!
Things'll get really image-inative here now -
I know - poor pun.
Excellence is its own reward!
andy,
I'm planning a similar addition to my old house, have you run down the numbers on how much using the icfs would be? I was planning to use block (addition only 18 by 18 ) what's the advantage here other than r value?
Or is the advantage a time thing, the wall goes up quicker....
In my experience, the ICF foundation is about 15-20% more expensive than plain formed and poured, but if you have any need for an insulated space, the overall cost for the finished and insulated gets to less or equall, net..
Excellence is its own reward!
I trimmed out a house two summers ago that had a full ICF basement. If it were my house, I would have had torn it down and hired another company to do it right...apparently the learning curve (although as previously suggested is fast) is also steep. Listen to the advice given here. It's a great idea, but can be majorly botched. EliphIno!
thanks piffin.
homer
I think for me its the fact that I can do it myself. Andy Engels article also says its more expensive but compared to what? Compared to if I hire a concrete guy? Well, I'll let you know because I think I should have at least one price by the beginning of next week from a concrete company.
I dont need the insulation factor all that much being that its not going to be a basement (just a 20" -+crawl space).
My feeling is that to do a three foot foundation wall, it might be cheaper to use ICF's being that I probably won't need much in the way of bracing as one consideration.
Thing is.......I'd rather have a concrete guy do it while I go out and make some money that week. I just have a hard time letting other people do my work....somewhere between cheap and pride I reckon. I also love learning new things.
In spite of how easy some say it is...I know better by now...everything takes forever when its your first time. Well almost everything <G>
Be an adventure
Namaste
andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy,
just curious why not do concrete block. that way you can set as little or as much as you want at a time..then again if you pour it , bam it's done, right? hmmmm. yeah, let me know how much the concrete guy wants.
Do you remember an article in fhb years ago about the guy that built an entire house, did literally everything, poured, mixed even his own concrete? Took forever but he was into it.
Reminds me-####buddy's dad worked with a (former) german footsoldier here in Philly after the war. He was driving one weekend and saw this guy, and his wife, hauling what they used to call "100 pounders" (block of some kind) each up a ramp to build their house. It was January, 15 degrees, and the german guy had a broken hand....
Yeah! Those hundred pounder ARE rough on hands, aren't they?
Actually, the block foundation is probably the best way to go for what Andy describes.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 3/16/2003 11:11:20 PM ET by piffin
My wife an I did our basement out of ICF's. They are very easy to assemble, almost like stacking lego. The most important thing is to ensure that your footings are dead level, not just about level, but dead level, as any variation will cause the blocks to either spread apart as you stack them, or end up having to be trimmed.
Some tips from my supplier:
1. Start at the coners and work to the center of walls.
2. Stagger any partial blocks so that they do not fall directly over each other.
3. Make sure you keep the strips that are used to attach drywall lined up vertically.
4. Bridge any partial blocks that are less than 2/3 with a piece of plywood, screw them into the faces of the partial and the surrounding blocks
5. Make sure that when you pour the footers you have rebar sticking up evry 4 feet or so and for at least 3 blocks high.
6. When you do the bottom courses lay in horizontal rebar and tie it to the verticals, this helps keep the wall from floating up when the concrete is poured.
7. Use plenty of rebar, it's cheap and as most block cavitys are around 6" it's what gives the wall a lot of it's strength. We used a double row at the bottom and top of the wall, verticals every 2 ft in 4ft walls and reduced the spacing by 6" for every addditional two feet of height. Most manufacturers will tell you their recomendations.
8. Use a plywood tie at the top of corners set at a 45 degree angle to hold the block down.
9. If at all possible use a pumper truck to place the concrete, and have them use an elbow (actually two elbows) on the end of the hose to reduce the force of the concrete.
10. Our manufacturer had a combination scafolding, bracing that we rented, highly recommended as it makes it easy to brace and to pur the concrete.
And a couple of things we did additionally.
1. Ripped 6" wide plywood to screw to the top of the blocks to create a further 2" high solid concrete ledge on top of the foam. This gave us a way to make sure that the top of the form would end up dead level as well as a footing on our frost walls that was raised to the eventual floor level so we didn't have framed walls that had multiple bottom plates.
2. We made our frost walls out of the blocks as well. Just have to make sure that you put in blocking anywhere you need to run services through.
And some things that we should(could) have done.
1. Designed the house with the blocks in mind. We ended up deciding on using blocks when we couldn't find a cribber so our basement has some off angle walls that required a lot more cutting and fitting than if they had been 45 degree. If you know you are using blocks then designing aroun dthe sizes and angles available would make it go even faster. However even with all the additional work we put the forms up in about a week.
2. Built the walkout walls from the blocks as well. Our supplier recommended this, however it wasn't in the budget, and creating, and pouring around window and door openings does get more involved. But it sure would have made a solid, and quiet basement.
Robert
I think maybe Rick Arnoild has a video out. Maybe it is the same one you are referring to. It would probably be through taunton. His stuff might be included in a framing book and video now that I think about it.
In icfA, he is doing introduction. I like the brand he used because of the interlock pattern. The one I used has a honeyecomb that collects ice and debris that makes it hard to clean out.
The steel plate rail just happens to fit the foam sides so he uses it for setup and alighment at the footer. You still need to have a level footer though.
ICF C shows steel placement. Having plenty of steel and tying it all together helps hold things in the wind too.
In ICF E he shows how to stablize corners against the earthen trench wall
ICF H shows the same steel channel being used to stabilize the wall top and to keep it clean if you are building up higher with further lifts.
J shows a couple of ways to stitch things together where Xtra re-inforcement is needed.
I also like to use a can or two of spray foam to seal potential blowout gaps or where shimming to level creates gaps under the bottom course to the footing.
Where you are tying to an existing rubble wall, the foam is easy to carve out to the shape of the old stone but the spray helps fit too.
I do my forming with this method when looking for the insulative value or when the job is too small for a concrete sub to bother moving his forms to the island here.
Excellence is its own reward!
I haven't built any icf foundations yet, but am going to start my own this summer. Two friends of mine have built them. The one that used the "screw into plastic" type was a real hassle. The other was PolySteel brand and you screwed into metal. Much better! (No, I dont' sell the stuff.)
Also, I you go the icf route, you can dispense with the idea of making the footer perfectly level by setting the first course of foam block directly into the wet mud when you pour the footers. Of course, then it has to be level, but I think that's easier that shooting for perfect footers.
I'm with Piff, though. For what you describe, I'd lay block.
It doesn't matter how fast you get there, it just matters that you go in the right direction.
Spoke to a company from New England that Andy E told me about and the guy was real helpful. I have a feeling time wise that I'd save money using ICF's. Ishould know by next week what concrete guys will charge me to do it. Should be interesting
"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I just got home from a presentation by our area PolySteel rep. If time is more an issue than money, I think that you are correct about using icf's.It doesn't matter how fast you get there, it just matters that you go in the right direction.
Make that un nanny mouse (unanimous).
Excellence is its own reward!