Does anyone have experience using ICFs both for foundation and walls in cold areas with high snowfall (>400″)? Are there pitfalls I should look out for? I don’t want to use stick frame construction because of thermal bridging. Are SIPs a better option?
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yur profile doesn't say where you are...
seeing it's only 400" yur concerned about... what kind of temps do you have???
ICF's and ISP's are two completely different animals...
do you want to do ICF to the peak or as foundation only and then convert to ISP???
where do you believe you'll thermal bridge with stick framing???
what is your target???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm in the Utah mountains. Temps -5 to 30s in the winter; summer low 80 max temp, with lots of sun.
I don't know if I should use ICFs as foundation only or all the way - hence my ?'s; I was recently in Crested Butte CO (a cold mountain town) and saw ICFs as foundations and SIPs (ISP) as walls on many new constructions I asked a local bulding inspector why this was done and he thought because ICFs cause loss of interior space due to wall thickness.
My recent reading about ICFs seems to point to less R value than what was originally touted.
My understanding is that thermal bridging occurs across the studs as wood has relatively low R value and unless this is somehow compensated for, no matter how well walls are insulated, heat tranfer occurs along the studs
Not sure what you mean by target, but I hope to build a well insulated house that is easy to heat in the winter and stays cool in the summer
I'm in the Utah mountains.
I'm in Colorado...
I don't know if I should use ICFs as foundation only or all the way - hence my ?'s;
generally when most here use ICF's stop at the foundation sill line... the ones that keep going find they have a thermal mass to contend with that needs regulating...
the concensuses seems to be,... "if I had it to do do over again"... also the ICF's inhibit later changes...
I saw ICFs as foundations and SIPs (ISP) as walls on many new constructions
the same here...
I asked a local bulding inspector why this was done and he thought because ICFs cause loss of interior space due to wall thickness.
less R value... costs are higher all the way down the line too...
My recent reading about ICFs seems to point to less R value than what was originally touted.
don't doubt that for a heartbeat...
My understanding is that thermal bridging occurs across the studs as wood has relatively low R value and unless this is somehow compensated for, no matter how well walls are insulated, heat tranfer occurs along the studs
hopefully Piffin will chime in with his method of insulating a framed wall... I can't remember the exact sequence for the method he uses but it is a good one...
He lives in Maine but he's still Coloradian from away back... BTW -5 temps is cake and pie to deal with...
Not sure what you mean by target,
but I hope to build a well insulated house that is easy to heat in the winter and stays cool in the summer
that's yur target...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the ones that keep going find they have a thermal mass to contend with that needs regulating...
Isn't thermal mass helpful by causing slowed heat transfer? What aspect of thermal mass needs contending with?
What aspect of thermal mass needs contending with?
preventing it from becoming a heat sink when it really gets and stays cold as in -30 or more for weeks at a time...
that takes heat or more insulation... or both...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
When people use teh ICF of foundations and stop at the sill, how do they finish the exposed foam above grade? Stuco?
adjust the rim joist to the exterior as though it was most any other type of wall...
the sill plate is no longer a 2x6 but becomes a 2x8 or 10 as required to compensate for the cantilever going over the foam...
the exterior foam is covered with most anything the imagination dreams up... stucco, facade stone, brick, Hardie, paint, tar, emulsion or even left as is...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It is my understanding that fake stone, stucco, paint, nor brick should contact soil. Therefore, it seems that they would not be options for covering the foam.
Tar? I suppose, but then that would look like . . .
Hardie? All the way to the ground? That does not seem wise either and in any case would look WRONG.
I asked this question to several sells reps at building fairs and got blank stares, as if no one had ever asked it.
you asked what "they do".....
tar looks like tar...
and yes on the hardie soil contact... and it's hardie panels that are used.. seen 1/4" backer board too...
the roof emulsion is the one that looks... well.... different...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
So there are no go options for handling this transition. Strike one.
Why couldn't you use a cementitious parge coat like what is commonly used on CMU walls?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I have done that too.
Want pictures?
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Pictures would be fine, but I'm more interested in why DoRight is willing to summarily dismiss ICF foundations because you supposedly cannot cover the foam at grade.I'm still waiting for his response.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, I am not dismissing ICF, I am just asking a flippin question which no one here can credible answer and for that matter none of the ICF repres I have talked to have an answer either. Interesting. So you can build with ICF and have butt-ugly foam exposed all around your home if you like.
Interesting that no one has posted a picture showing a durable finish of ICF foundantions. Interesting.
DoRight,
Easy answer is don't build with ICF's.
The rest of us seem to muddle through somehow, though.
Ron
ronbudgell, etall.
What is wrong with this bunch? How bizzare. No one can answer a simple question, or the answer is too embarrassing for them. Hey, I might be an ICF convert if someone had a creditible answer to the question.
Case in point: Your NON-answer to the question: ".... the rest of us seem muddle through somehow . . ." Do you know what an answer to a question really is?
You must be a Democrat, never an answer to any question, just diversion, point a finger, and say the other guy has a problem. How typical, but a building question?
Pictures anyone? No, that would be like a straight forward answer, so we can't ahve any of that. LOL!!!! Bizzare, but ok.
DoRight.
I am not a democrat if by that you mean a member of that political party. Far too right wing for me.
The correct way to define my answer to your earlier question would be - dismissive, rather like this answer, which is as clear as I know how to make it, and also dismissive.
Ron
People who answer questions dismissively do so because they are clueless as to an answer, as in your case. Secondly, they do so becuase they are arogant and are too embarassed to admit their cluelessness, again, as in your case.
I'm late in getting back into this conversation, but it doesn't take many comments like the following to not get excited about sharing what we use:
Pictures anyone? No, that would be like a straight forward answer, so we can't ahve any of that. LOL!!!! Bizzare, but ok.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I don't know why you4r ICF reps can't answer that for you. There are dozens of ways to treat this exterior, many recommended by the manufacturers. They work just fine.On my own home, I simply used the cheapest stack'N'bond application I could find and after ten years it is just starting to show some bad chips on a corner where I didn't do it very well because I was having a bad day and the sun was making it about 95°F at that corner.
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I can't speak for him, but you can cover it in a multitude of ways.
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Hey, how about laying off Frenchy for a bit & going one-on-one with Do-right....oops...see you've BTDT already.....BTW, if I seem out of sorts (here & some other threads) it's cause we pissed away 40K on cranes this weekend....if we'd been playing baseball we'd be rich, but one out of three doesn't pay quite as well in our business...
Edited 10/23/2007 5:36 am ET by jrnbj
I don't know. I am not sure of what you speak, but if you are saying a skim coat of cement, that might work. I would venture it would crack and break off over time. NO?
no
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Ok, a man with ballls.
balls, brains and experience.All you got so far is mouth
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Use a mirror.
sure there are...
stucco, brick, stone, sidings and a slew of other well done methods...
final can be anything you see on any other house...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You might have to back that up, or add details. Stone and brick require a brick ledge. ???????????????????????????
Stucco? I doubt it will stand up to contact to soil which is required to cover the foam to the groound.
Fake stone? Attached to foam? And again it should not come in contact with the gorund.
Soooooo ???
There is a brick ledge detail available with ICFsSee previous attachment for ideas on how fake block or stone is applied.
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ICF is used a lot here...
plan for you final... put in a ledger...
stucco is the most common cover....
I never gone past basic installation of them or or cleaned up some "this is wrong" kind of installation...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thank you.
Yes, that is one of many ways. Synthetic stucco is sold by any distributor of th e ICFs
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Piff
I did not inspect the site, one of our staff reviewed and photographed it, he and I subsequently spoke.
The way I understand it from our conversation and the photos is that the fire started on a porch and then progressed into the foam causing the foam to melt away from the concrete.
The floor joists were I-Joists hung on hangers on engineered rim. The engineered rim was bolted to the face of the foam walls. The foam melted away from the walls leaving gaps between the rim and the concrete. I cannot comment on whether this method of fastening is proper, as we have not done ICF work. I can note that the wood floor systems were largely intact. The wood framed roof was burned almost completely off of the structure.
The point of my post was about the difficulty of the repair. Perhaps half of the exterior walls suffered melting damage. Which comes with serious odor.
We were not asked to repair this structure, but I am still at a loss as to how we would have performed such a repair. Spray seal the smoked concrete/crispy foam and then spray foam over the top ?
I am only basing my speculation on a wood framed home surviving a fire in this case on past experience and in talking with our guy who inspected the house. When I asked him if a stick built structure would have survived, he said yes, he was confident that it would have. In fact, he said, this structure did survive, it was the level of complication in the repair that led to the decision to tear it down.
I imagine that we will see more of this type of home in the future and I seriously doubt that many carriers will agree to tear a house down with moderate damage. We will have to come up with viable repair solutions for this type of construction.
carpenter in transition
I perch my joist atop the ICF foundation wall as with typcial cnocrete foundation, but when hanging joists, as in your case, I would be removing foam interior and bolts in the wall would secure rim directly to the concrete, eliminating the condition you ended up with.Much preferred over that is to use the brick lip forms available with ICFs to form a ledge for the joists to the interior.
Either of these procedures would have eliminated the [problems you found , but it sounds liek there were other issues too.Fire damage repair always involves a lot of judgment calls.But none of this should cast any questions on ICFs as away of building. ANY system can be great of terrible according to the way it is implemented and constructed on site. My impression is that the case you have as an example is one where things were not done quite up to par and that is what made the fire damage results worse
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Well, it's pretty easy for fire damage to make just about any structure impractical to repair, especially when odors are taken into account.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Tim,Thanks for posting the details. That ICF house was done wrong at the ledger. The correct detail still holds the floor system just fine even if all the foam is removed later. The foam is not to be considered as structural! On my place I cut rectangular holes in the foam forms every 16", about 6" wide and 12" tall. These lined up with the "columns" found inside the Cempo blocks. The treated 3x12 ledgers were held to the forms with 1/4" all thread, with 4" plywood washers outside. The wall pour flowed out of the "columns" and touched the ledger at every one of these points, which is why it had to be treated wood. There are two 5/8" anchor bolts at each such haunch, which I tightened after the mud cured. The foam forms could all be chiseled away now, and the floor would still be very solid.Given that an ICF made with straight styrofoam is much more vulnerable to fire and insects and solvents than the foam/cement composite I used, it seems obvious that a similarly redundant system of supporting the floor should be mandatory on all ICF structures.Bill
Short of the personal vitriol, this is an interesting discussion.
I didn't release that insects can degrade the foam component of some ICFs. Is there one ICF brand that overall performs better than others? Or, are there brands that I should avoid? One guy I know raves about Rastra block (but it's the only ICF he's worked with). Thanks.
I have asked a couple of foam manufacturers why they don't use borate treatments added to the foam in production to stem the insect invasions.The answer was that they are not sure that it doesn't weaken the foam, and with blowouts a concern already with these products, they don't want to push the limits too far.
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I think about the only things that insects don't degrade are concrete and steel (and I'm not entirely sure about concrete).
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
skifixer,
Before you put much credence in the bugs in the foam issue ask some tough questions.. has that person ever actaully seen such a event and can they post pictures.. One person who makes a large issue of Bugs in foam saw some bugs nest in fiberglas laying on the ground or some such event.. If bugs are a real issue with you then have the foundation sprayed to prevent them.. same as you would with any other method of construction..
I know my brand of ICF's has Borate in it which repels bugs. there is an issue with carpenter ants here but we don't have termits.. Iowa Yes, Minnesota No, (we have little gates at the border preventing illegal bugs from entering ;-)
As for brands, look carefully at the joint connection between blocks.. some ICF's just scream blow out to me while others seem so sturdy that blowouts are never an issue.. I used reward forms they are easy and simple plus the dealer really did an excellant job of doing the engineering, holding my hand thru the process and making sure everything was right before pumping..
all of your doors, windows or chases that you have in any style of wall will cause thermal bridging... something to consider...
Davemeiland's offset framing works.... only here studing is done with 2x4's and 2x6 for the plates.. cavities are foamed...
if foam board is used it's installed on the interior for the most part even though you'll see it installed on the exterior...
foam board to the inside for warm.. to the outside for cooling...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC
Offset walls! Somebody is really in love with nailing stuff together to suggest them..
Basically you double your material bill and more than double your labor costs to have what you get with SIP's or ICF's..
My cost for SIP's was about what my material costs for a traditional stick built wall would have been when everything was calculated.. However SIP's go up like right now!
ICF's sell currantly for a 2% premium over tradional stick built homes however some framers are offering them at no cost increase simply to remian busy at a time when new construction is at a near standstill.
Fundamentally there is no justification for the premium.. just market forces at work..
Something to think about. If ICF's had been created 100 years ago and were the norm for residential construction, could a case be made now to use wood framing instead? They are more vulnerable to earthquakes, winds, fire, and termites. They are harder to build with resistance to air/moisture infiltration. The insulation is not continuous.Instead of "status quo is wood framing; can you make a case for ICF?" it's interesting to muse on "status quo is insulated concrete; can you make a case for wood frame?"
must be the way you worded that rhetorical Q, but I can't figure out what you are saying. Could you rephrase the question?
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I'm not ignoring your request. I am just 110% tired tonight.Short version I like ICF as best and my next home will be ICF, but SIP does have some modest advantages. Both have pros and cons.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am still reeling over the thought of 33 feet of snow average. Was that a typo?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It doesn't all come at once. Usually spread over 3-4 days.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
at least by Friday any ways....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
you lived here....
have you forgotten????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I am still reeling over the thought of 33 feet of snow average. Was that a typo?
No; actually we get typically 500" total winter snowfall. The west is dry so considerable evaporative loss occurs, but it still piles up. Most of us moved here for one season and ended up staying.
didn't think yiou were...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
would you take the ICF to the ridge...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Probably not to the ridge.
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Piffin,
One went up not two blocks from here right to the ridge.
I don't have any problem with what somebody else does. I am sure that works fine, but to keep things in context, I was replying to IMERC's Q about what I plan to do on my own personal next one.
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Piffin,
I'm sorry, I misunderstood.. I believed you were speaking about the ability to build to the ridge line with ICF's I didn't understand that you interpited it to mean about what you personally intended to build..
As for your insistance that ICF's go up slower than SIP's do. I must respectfully disagree with you..
Here's my logic on that statement and why I believe you could be right and yet still wrong..
Panels are large awkward things even with a telehandler. While ICF's can be handled by little girls. . plus if you read the manual they are assembled vertically rather than horizontally..
That means once in place you need to slide the splines in and then find a way to squeeze the "glue" together. In cold weather that takes some real doing since almost all the "glues" I've seen get really thick when cold..
The way I did it was a long bar clamp and some blocks screwed into the panels. Since my panels were pretty long I had clamps top and bottom..
That's a lot of screwing and unscrewing.. clamping and unclamping.. Then you have to nail the panels every 2 inches,, while I used a nail gun that still took a while..
Later I found out how much time you could save by stacking them horizontally but the instructions don't allow that.. I was able to do that because I had timbers on both sides of the panels. (you could do it with panels on one side or with an intersecting wall) I digress.
Anyway with ICF's you line them up like big leggo's, toss in your rebar and foam the joints on the inside.. One girl can do it in a few hours with no experiance and instructions from a drugged guy laying flat on his back.
The filling of the ICF's does require muscle since I used the loose hose instead of the boom mounted dangeling hose.. but again I digress.
Both require dealing with window/door cutouts and basically need the same amount of work.
If you buy panels that are already cut out for windows /doors etc.. you've saved a lot of work over ICF's which don't have that option.. So in one sense you are correct.. however, panels to ICF's the process worked much faster doing ICF's than doing panles.. and The jobs I've watched it seems the same..
I really should take pictures of my ICF's I formed into a 8 1/2 foot radius circle for my portico.. That really is some neat work and I'm rather proud of it.. Plus it went together so slick it shocked the pump truck operator.. Here's this foam ICF radiused wall sitting on top of footings forms. No bracing and none intended to be used. He was absolutely sure it was a recipe for disaster.. I mean the forms had been cut into small segments and they were sitting on top of the footing forms.. I poured the footings, the wall and the floor all at one time. Nothing wiggled, nothing moved and nothing went out of place..
Sorry for the bragging..
Frenchy, I am planning on building my next house in a few years and have a few questions. BTW I did take a weekend course on building with ICFs several years ago and picked up some good information.
What brand of block did you settle with, we are pretty much limited to our local supplier Advantix? Did you brace your walls on 6' or less? Did you pour your ground floor slab and footing (monolithic) or footer first then slab and build off that?
Thanks
JF
Talisker2
I used Rewards forms. I found far cheaper forms and usually I go with what's cheap but in my judgement the premium I paid for the forms was more than offset by the support I got. (plus some of the really cheap forms looked like they were designed to blow out)
I really felt naked since that was 6 years ago and ICF's had just started to be accepted here in the midwest at that point.. The support I got and the information made me feel comfortable with my decision. Once I did it I got absolutely cocky and the next application I went way beyond anything people had done previously..
Read my last comments to Piffin for information.. (towards the end of the post)
I braced my walls 4 foot on center. more than called for but I was scared!
My last pour I back filled before pouring and didn't brace at all from the inside because the joists for the deck were imbedded into the top course.
My first pour I put the foams on top of the footing forms, poured the walls, Knocked off the footing forms and poured the flooring all at once. That way I paid only one set-up charge for the pumper truck..
Now I need to be careful here because I didn't do all the work..
What Happened is I went on a trip and had my back go out on me because of the lousy seats in the car. I was bed ridden in screaming pain for over a month when my sister-in-law with absolutely no experience took over.. I think I had the first course down.. maybe a few blocks on the second course..
No experience and she got her instructions from the bedside of a drugged up guy who could barely put two words together.. and slurred those as well.
A few days later I found the magic pill that fixed me and checked out her work and it was great! anyway I put up bracing and pumped concrete and it was really easy... (except I didn't handle the hose because I was worried about my back) but a young kid from the grocery store handled the hose and things went perfect..
Frenchy, thanks much for the quick reply, glad to hear your back is better.
Reward seems to be a good block, due to the logistics I will probably go with the local Amvic dealer as freight would be a bear. Did you look into the cost of going with "Insul-Deck" type flooring for the second floor rather than conventional framing?
Since I have a flat lot I am leaning towards a "frost protected shallow foundation" but that may change if my water table is low enough to put in a daylight basement. That's next summers chore to get the soils testing done.
JF
Talisker2
I'm too cheap to use manufactured type construction material.. I went to my local sawmill and got all the wood for a 5500 sq.ft house for a tiny fraction of what a lumberyard would have charged me..
By my calculation If I bought all this hardwood at a lumberyard it would have cost about $810,000.00 I only paid less than $25,000. that's for an all hardwood house.. Even if I used 2x4's I could expect to spend about $85,000 at the lumberyard.
Double timberframed that is black walnut timbers on the outside with white oak timbers on the inside.. Normal timberframes are done at 10 to 12 foot spacings, mine were at 4 foot spacing.
My sub floors are actaul two inches thick with another inch of finished floor above that.. my joists are 2x12's not demensional which makes them 11 1/2 x1 1/2 but an actaul 2 x12 all hardwood.
Ever see the dash board of a Rolls Royce? I've got 9 posts made from burls like that plus 917 bd.ft of wide (22 inches) by 10 foot long planks all burl!
I've got fiddleback maple in the raised panels of my guest bathroom and soon the living room walls. I've got tiger stripe black walnut and fiddleback white oak.. all for that same $25,000 grand, Hardwood floors and coffered ceilings..
What I don't understand is since there is the potential to save that much money why other homes aren't done with sawmill wood rather than buying it at a lumberyard.. If you go to the archieves and punch in 85891.1 you'll see my place..
Fair warning; The savings I speak about disappear quickly if you have other do the work for you and just expect to write checks..
Turning timbers into a timberframe doesn't take all that much time (unless you are as wacko as I am) .. I'm old and fat and out of shape so I have no doubt it would be easy for you.
Your house sounds absolutely fantastic. I love wood, I am a armature wood worker who has a FESTOOL fetish. I am in the process of hardwood trimming out my entire home. I also am in the process of covering all the baseboard heaters with red oak. (A process I found in FHB some years ago). And laying prefinished oak strip flooring throughout the living, dining and kitchen area.
The amount of wood you bought where you are would cost at least 2x or more up here. Most of that material would have to be special ordered and the local lumber yard does not even carry dimensional hardwood. I would have to order it through my local hardwood specialty shop and they would be glad to have it shipped up, of course I could not hand select any of it and I would have to commit to prepaying for it etc. etc.
you forget I have done a lot more ICF work that you have so I know how much you are discounting the work involved in doing it right.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I'll never doubt your expertese in construction, however I ask that you at least credit my experiance.. while I've only built one house myself I've been there for 17 years while countless thousands have been built.. (it was part of my job to know what they were doing and figure out ways to help them be more productive so they would buy the equipment I sold)
I watched various crews build both ICF and SIP houses.. Now since no ICF or SIP house is exactly like the other I cannot honestly say that I've done back to back blind tests but I will say that on average the ICF house was done quicker than the SIP house except where the panels were ordered precut for doors, windows, etc..
So all the crews were taking improper short cuts? I sure didn't untill I got to the front half of my home and laid the panels horizontal rather than vertical.. the amount of work I eliminated with that step put the panels much faster than the ICF's but it's not in the manual..
So unless we assume that the panels are precut or the crews lay the panels horizontal rather than vertical as the manual calls for I'll stand by my statement.. ICF's are faster than SIP's
I will absolutely say that wiring ICF's and doing any plumbing would be massively faster than SIP's (as long as it's done prior to the concrete pour).. I think any reasonably intelligent electrician would be willing to do wiring for no premium over stick built and as experiance broadens I'm willing to bet electricians start to bid ICF's cheaper than stick building.. (they are faster)
"I ask that you at least credit my experiance."What I credit you with on subjects like this where you know little yet insist on acting like an expert anyways is that you have a long history here of making things up on the fly, boldly proclaiming things that are just not true even when faced with bags of testimony and evidence to the contrary, and going on your merry way blindly thinking the world is wrong and you are right.
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I think there's a general tendency, when remembering how fast something went up, to forget about all the dorking around that occurred getting stuff ready, and to remember only the actual assembly time.I've never seen ICFs put up, but have seen some special CMUs that went together exactly the same way and were then grouted. The stuff was assembled mostly by inexperienced HS students (HfH project) and went together remarkably fast, but there was a lot of time spent before and after fooling with rebar, adjusting door openings, etc.Of course, in most cases one gets better at the "dorky" stuff with experience and planning, but it'll still generally consume the lion's share of time.And, one could argue, for SIPs one must include a substantial fraction of the paper planning time in the total. Just like with stick framing, an experienced carp could probably do an ICF building with no blueprints, but you have to have a pretty airtight plan for SIPs (and order them well in advance).So it's easy to get into a "which part of the elephant" pissing match.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
yeah, it is easy for frenchy to forget that stuff since for one of his two walls, he was flat on his back taking pain meds for his back while a female relative did the erection for him. And that was I seem to recall on an only 5' tall wall.he substitutes all the hard slow work of running the rebar properly with a blanket statement, "Throw some rebar in"
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Well, if he managed a five-foot erection under any circumstances my hat's off to him.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The TV commercials say you're supposed to see the doctor if that happens.
Piffin
Well it seems as if you once again got the facts wrong..
My first addition was a wall 9 feet tall, 38 feet long 16 feet wide other than having the rebar prebent to 90 degrees. she did everything in the space of 4 hours or so.
I used reward forms and all you do is snap the rebar into the places they provide. the only slow bit is to ensure that the seam is sealed with foam..
the process is
1 put the block in place (and the next and next etc.)
2 foam the joints,
3 snap the rebar in
Now reward forms call for rebar every other side on alternating courses. I substituted rebar on both sides every course. Still left plenty of room for the stinger to go in. while it might be tight on the more narrow forms on the 15 inch I used there was plenty of room..
edit,
oh, I did add the staging and bracing myself a few days later but I believe that took a couple of hours. A bit hard to remember since that was over 6 years ago.. it wasn't hard or time consuming..
I do know the pour took less than an hour and then I stripped off the bracing and staging and poured the floor with the same pump truck. I only paid for 4 hours so the whole process must have gone pretty fast..
Edited 9/6/2007 8:55 am ET by frenchy
hard to belive you said that...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
". . . female relative did the erection for him" WHAT?
LOL, I see an unintended faux pas there.
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Piffin,
That was insulting and I should let loose some things about you that I've withheld.. I won't. Hopefully I'm better than that..
I will attempt to one last time reason with you.
How do you connect SIP's together in cold weather? How do you ensure that the joint is complete, that the adhesive used is evenly applied?
There are some similarities between the two posters in question.
C'mon guys. Let's knock off the personal stuff and focus on the topic. Why can't we each give our experiences with one or more methods, and then shut up and let the readers draw their own conclusion.It's fine by me if someone draws a different conclusion from me. It's ok if Tim finds wood more fire resistant than ICF. I don't win a trophy for convincing him or vica versa.There are few absolutes in what we're doing. One method could be quicker for one crew, while the same method could be slower for another. People are involved, so of course the processes are variable.I had one project that needed vertical walls. My design speced pre-cast concrete walls (T-Mass). The owner client didn't talk to contractors who'd done that before, but rather ones who'd done other stuff. One said to drop the pre-cast and use shotcrete walls. One said to drop the pre-cast and lay up brick walls. One said to drop the pre-cast and use ICF. Each swore their method was quicker and cheaper. What was clear was that each used that wall assembly as their MO. The only absolute in this industry is that most people lean toward that with which they are most familiar.........not that there's anything wrong with that.
When it comes to walls I'd look for someone who stood up straight, rather than leaning one direction or the other. For roofing, OTOH, you want a guy with one short leg.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
That has to be the most accurate and succinct description of our Frenchy I've yet seen.He reminds me so much of a guy who was my best friend for over 20 years.SamT
Maybe, maybe not. But it was unnecessary and inappropriate, imo. Why does it always have to get insulting? God, I'm tired of that...
I'll tell you where it is important to separate #### from petunias - People come to this forum as one of the premier locations on the web for good sound information from pros to get their questions answered and find good solid advice. When somebody spends time here making up #### and posting it as solid and acting like an expert, he devalues the site and the confidence people put in what they find here.That devalues all of us.So the posers need to be identified.I have made posts with half-assed information and get corrected and bow in admiration to those who know more. I thank them for helping me learn.By the same token, I call out bad information when I see it.And frenchy volunteers himself for correction regularly with his vivid imagination.
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Piffin,
Since you seem to have time to make insults I think It's time for you to take a little of your own medicene.
Piffin you are hands down the most prolific poster in this site.
The isn't even a close second place..
That causes me to wonder, when do you find time to do all the work you claim to have done? (and make so many posts?)
When I was in the Navy we had a saying,, those that can do, do and those that can't do talk..
Easy baby,I am a twelve hour a day man and I can muti-task. And I don't watch much TV. Add to that - I like helping people with good advice.Those who have been here and seen my work on site know what I am capable of.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
It's amazing what an adult converstation can yield when insults aren't used.
You work Hard, I'm willing to accept that as well, why aren't you also willing to credit my 17 years in the industry as being worthy?
You don't actually have to hold the tools in order to gain the knowledge do you? (If you do then how do you think I figured out how to design and build a house with no prior experiance)?
Piffin I'm still interested in your solution to assembly of SIP's in cold weather.
I've watched contractor after contractor struggle with them ( or not use the proper adhesive in assembly)
Smart, intelligent, people have learned a great deal from me (as I from them) The first time I sold a telehandler to a carpenter it was to help him out of a hopeless bind he'd gotten himself into..
The jobsite was a hopeless mud quagmire. Simply walking was a difficult task, the mud would suck your boots off in a few steps and delivery trucks couldn't drop their loads anywhere near the jobsite.. so guys, a lot of guys spent their whole day trying to get material to the places where it was needed..
That delayed construction and drove up costs to the point where the contractor expected to lose his shirt on the job..
I don't know if it was an act of desperation, panic, or what but he agreed to rent one of my Lulls (that's the brand I sold back then).. He finished the job on time and even actaully wound up making a profit.. the next job was profitable enough with the use of a Lull that he wound up buying it.. That was 1991
Since the late 1990's I have recommended to anyone listening to use either ICF's or SIP's I think I saw my first house being built with SIP's back around 1999, I got my first exposure to ICF's at the world of concrete about that time as well. I don't know if you've ever attended the world of concrete but all the factories who have anything to do with concrete meet and they demonstrate equipment, tools, and techniques..
While a lot of salesmen come for the parties and fun I attended with serious fact gathering in mind.. I paid close attention to each manufactures features and techniques..
Here in Minnesota ICF's are much more commonly sold than SIP's So much so that the factory I bought my SIP's from stopped making them and now they are made in Wisconsin.
I would say that in spite of being told where every SIP panel was sold in Minnesota while only a few ICF form dealers called me with that sort of information There were more than a 2 to 1 selling of ICF's around here.. On my Lake alone I believe I have the only house with SIP's and yet there are 4 new ICF homes (besides my foundation within a few miles of here)
. Imagination? Yes I'm very proud of that fact. But I have 17 years of knowledge in the industry as well That provides me with a lot more insite than you're likely to get looking only at your own work and others working around you. I've seen what works and what doesn't because I visit more diiferant jobsites in a day than you see in a month. Plus You've seen what my own hands are capable of..
"...how much you are discounting the work involved in doing it [ICFs] right."
You aren't just whistling dixie.
Rebar, block reinforcement, window bucks, bracing and wall straightening do indeed take a long while. Heck on the day we pump mud it takes 4 hours of prep, 2 hours of pouring and 4 hours to take care of details and later strip the bracing. Just in those 10 hours one heck of a lot of SIPs can be placed.
I'll throw out that our labor on ICFs is probably at least three times that of SIPs for the same square footage, especially when we're talking about full height above ground walls.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Idaho Don,
Very interesting.. I do agree there is a great deal of work to be done on a freestanding wall done with ICF's however all of that work is pretty much duplicated with SIP's.
What I found makes the prime differance is the joining of Panels with SIP's that is so time consuming..
OH you can fudge it if you aren't worried about joint seal, and on a hot summerday I should imagine that panels pretty much go together as they show in the videos..
However, Once you need to get the blocks out and barclamps that connection time increases dramatically. In colder weather that is required. Since normally sheetrock is preapplied on the inside you can't use bar clamps on the interior without a lot of damage being done to the sheetrock. That forces you to the outside where you either work off of staging or you work off of a platform on a forklift,
The way I see ICF's assembled is with a seperate pour for each floor. Thus they can work right off the floor and aren't forced outside to staging or a work platform.
In addition that next floor makes the walls straight and square.. eliminating bracing and etc.. Most commonly done is use brick ledge turned inside to set the next floor on and you pour the first floor standing on the second floor. That has the added advantage of making neat coffered ceilings a built in feature.
Piffin
CH was proposing to reverse the debate about ICF vs framing. Assume that ICF was the norm. Would anyone take the idea of a stick framed house seriously?
My answer, the answer of an ICF fan is yes, it can still make a lot of sense in that one man can stick build a house alone if necessary without very much equipment.
A cousin's son is doing that right now, cutting trees, sawing them where they fall, hauling them to his house site and building a fair sized house completely alone. By the time he's done, he'll have a new house and a medium-large credit card bill - no mortgage.
Other than that, I think wooden houses are relics and should be valued as such.
Ron
Yes, that was the gist. It was a topic that originally was posed to me a number of years ago when someone asked, given modern materials and methods, why anyone would build a log cabin. I just applied it to frame houses. If they didn't exist, and I invented the concept of a wood framed house today, would it have any mass appeal if everyone else was already building ICF? I think from its structural characteristics to its weather resistance to its energy requirements...it'd be a hard sell.
Tell him to be careful with those linseed oil rags!
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan
Linseed oil?
ron
There was an article copied here 6-12 months ago about a lady in Montana or some such who built her own house, cutting the timbers, etc. Had it all finished and was putting the finishing touches on it when she used some linseed oil to finish some wood and left the rags laying in a heap. No house.Can't find that article, but here's one on linseed oil:
http://www.almanacnews.com/morgue/2003/2003_12_10.pvfire.shtml
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan
I missed the linseed oil story. It's hard to believe that she had never heard of the fire risk, isn't it?
Ron
Yes and no. It's not something you average Joe (or Jane) knows about, and since she was building in the "Wilderness" she probably didn't have the benefits of Breaktime.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
One man can easily build ICF alone too
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Piffin,
When I started the house I am in now, myself and my two kids (10 and 12 at the time) formed the first level, but I can't make the foam or form it into ICF blocks. I can't make the steel or the concrete.
My cousin's son is making the primary components of his new house, all the framing lumber and board.
Ron
Are we suddenly talking about building from RAW materials? instead of what can be purchased from suppliers?
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Piffin,
That's exactly what I was talking about. He thought about building with logs, but decided he couldn't haul big enough logs behind his skidoo and sawed them into framing lumber.
Ron
you posted a how to on how to get a bazillion, well maybe just a zillion R out of a framed wall some time back...
went looking but couldn't find it...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They are more vulnerable to earthquakes, winds, fire, and termites.
I thought I would chime in here in regards to a fire in stick frame vs. ICF residences.
Last year we examined a relatively new ICF home that was seriously damaged in a fire. The result of the damage was that the foam to the interior of the structure in many areas melted and eroded leaving behind the concrete cores. Joist systems were left unsupported.
Repairs to the foam were considered, but unfortunately deemed nearly impossible.
The entire house was bulldozed.
The same stick framed structure would have been repaired and would be standing today.
carpenter in transition
That's why I like it with no foam on the interior. It's a compromise, imo, with ICF's, that we don't encounter be/c we spray materials without interior foam. It's also why I use words like "more vulnerable" and "disaster resistant" rather than absolute terms. I know a concrete house that a fire went over and around with only some charring to the exterior foam. How would a frame house have fared? We can only guess, but that guess can be based on the odds. I know a house that survived a hurricane with no structural damage, while the frame houses to the left and the right both vanished. Was the survivor lucky or good? I am curious about a fire that would melt all the foam but would have left a wood framed structure repairable.
Cloud Hidden.
The insulation properties of foam afford a large measure of fire protection.. One of the things I saw was a bonfire made in the corner of a room made with SIP's the interior wall was at 1300 degrees. More than enough to start a 2x4 on fire. However the exterior of the wall was only 50 degrees higher than ambiant.
That fire burned for over an hour with only minor charring of the paper on the sheetrock damaged..
> large measure of fire protectionProtecting what? Inside? Outside?Tim mentioned burned foam under circumstances, if I understood, that would not have resulted in burned wood.I'm a big believer in foam. Used, if memory serves, 18 barrels of it on my house. I just don't like interior foam. I like lots of exterior foam and interior concrete. That's the combination that made me put my money where my mouth was. Protects the house from much outside stuff and limits the occurrence of inside fires.
Cloud Hidden.
SIP's work differantly than does foam in a stick built house for fire protection.
Foam does provide some insulating value (in a fire situation) to a stick built house but not as much as a SIP does..
The problem is that in a stick built house the poor R value of the studs transmits heat relatively quickly to the interior/exterior where it can cause exposed wood to burst into flame..
SIP's have no such transmission since they lack interior studs.. if there is an interior fire the sheet rock affords a measure of protection to the OSB.. since the OSB is basically "smothered" by the sheetrock it cannot recieve oxygen and thus no fire can occur (Untill the sheetrock fails) on the outside we are more dependant on whatever exterior barrier there may be for fire protection, such as stucco or stone or brick etc.
Wood siding or vinyl siding will afford no protection whatsoever however...
Back to stucco or whatever, while it will transmit heat it is a relatively poor conductor and provides an extended level of protection.. Anotherwords if a fire occurs that is relatively quick burning such as a brush fire etc..
Tim,You mentioned that joist systems were left unsupported when the foam went away on an ICF home that had a fire. It sounds like you are saying that the foam either supported or laterally braced the joists. Am I correctly understanding what you wrote?I built a shop with an apartment above using Cempo ICF's in 2002-03. These are the Rastra type of ICF with Portland cement binding together the styrene foam beads. They have the advantage of a 4-hour fire rating in the unplastered state, and termites cannot tunnel through the foam/cement composite.This style of ICF is a royal pain to fasten anything to, however. They are best when plastered directly, both inside and out, as they behave like their own scratch coat for Portland cement stucco outside or gypsum plaster inside.The even temperatures are nice, but the tomb-like quiet is the coolest thing about ICF's. A mason friend of mine built a studio next to his house out of styrofoam-panel-type ICF's, and his country band can practice any time of day or night and nobody hears anything outside.Bill
how is it that a fire that intense would not have totally consumed a stick framed home, Tim? some objective standard to go by of personal opinion?I am also very curious about how joists were left unsupported. When properly built with bricklip projection forming, or let in ledgers, the joists would still have been anchored tight to the concrete. if a fire left them unsupported, then the house was not properly built to begin with, or it was so intense that it damaged the concrete bearing to the point of fracturing.
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Foam was holding up the Joists?
no, there was an interior ledger on the face of the foam that was through bolted.
once the foam melted it left a void.
carpenter in transition
There was a void structurally before the fire, it just happened to have foam in it.
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There was a void structurally before the fire, it just happened to have foam in it.
*Chuckle*
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Then again who wants a 15 inche thick wall? Sure much can be said about economics, but style rules many people.
What's so wrong with 15" walls? They're easy to design for. People like the deep window wells they yield. That said, my typical design is for 4" of foam and 3" of shotcrete (not ICF), and it's speced for 200+ mph winds and 2500+ psf loads. So thick walls are a non-issue. I've started including ICF as an alternative where the desire is for vertical walls, because they're generally accepted by people, and the thickness just hasn't been a problem. With them, I design inside-out, so that we get the floor space we need. Design covers economics, aesthetics, comfort, longevity, security and lots else. Each client prioritizes those in their own way.
What is wrong with 15 inche thick walls? I just don't like the adobe feel, and I know many others that feel that way as well. Personal choice to be sure.
You say 4" foam and 3" concrete? What is the form used to contain teh concrete on the inside during the pour?
>Personal choice to be sure.Absolutely. Some like it and some don't. It's not inherently good or bad.>You say 4" foam and 3" concrete? What is the form used to contain teh concrete on the inside during the pour?The foam is used to insulate the house. The concrete is sprayed inside that, not poured. The insulation is optional, though the house is certainly more comfortable and cheaper to heat/cool with insulation than without. The "form" is an inflated fabric that is sprayed form the inside.
2500 psf loads?Is this a belt & suspenders (and maybe a skyhook for good measure) approach, or is the loading ever somewhat necessary?I know there are a lot of natural strength benefits one can derive from a dome, but I didn't think I could park an F-250 on top of your home.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It's the natural strength at the minimum building code specs, with a significant safety margin. You absolutely could park an F-250 on my old home, though we should ask permission of the new owners first. The design spec allows for 20' burial with no change to the structure of the house (other than footer thickness to match the weight to the soil bearing capacity).This is information from the structural engineer I use on all designs, who, if you'll excuse the name dropping, is the current chairperson of the ACI committee writing the building code for Thin Shells and Folded Plates (Chapter 19 of the IBC, which references American Concrete Institute (ACI) publication 318, Chapter 19, on Thin Shells and Folded Plates).If we built to a lesser standard (and therefore a lesser load capacity), then we'd either be violating the IBC requirements for rebar spacing or for concrete thickness (coverage of rebar). So, to meet those requirements, which apply to lots more than just our structures, we by default end up with a structure with that load capacity.
what was tha build up for those high R value framed walls you wrote about a bit back ago???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would take an ICF house over a SIP house any day. There might be somewhat lower R values with ICF, and there might be some loss of floor space... but with ICF you get concrete walls with rebar in them, whereas with SIP you get OSB laminated to foam insulation. I dunno about anyone else but I am not persuaded that the lamination will last forever, whereas I have pretty good evidence that concrete holds up. Having lived in earhquake country for a long time I find that appealing.
The hassle of running electrical, plumbing, and mechanical in either system seems significant. SIP sounds easier to put siding on.
Now, if you want to stick frame, you could use 2x8 plates, 2x6 studs on 12" centers alternating one side of the plate to the other. No thermal bridging. You could also look into using foam insulation on the outside of the sheathing.
Bottom line, I would find and hire a solid building designer or architect in your area, someone who knows the most successful systems that are in local use.
David
I'd like to correct some misconceptions you have regarding ICF's and SIP's
SIP's can and do last a very long time.. My roof panels of SIP's was exposed to the Minnesota weather.. without the benefit of anything for 4 years! No tar paper no shingles nothing.. when I finally did get around to putting the roof on there was no deterioration at all in spite of winters worth of snow and summers worth of rain..
SIP's are 200% stronger than a properly built Stick framed wall. ICF's will withstand a 200 MPH wind, both are far more fire resistant than stick built homes.
Running wiring or plumbing (why would you have plumbing in an outside wall in cold weather anyway?) is easier than doing the same in a stick built home.
Stop and think , which is easier to drill thru, foam or a stud?
All that's called for is a different technique but some people are so fixated that they imagine it to be harder.
Same applies to ICF's, you run your wires and plumbing before you pour the concrete, then all you need to drill thru is foam.. I've never heard of anyone putting mechanicals in exterior walls. You could though, simply do it before you pour the concrete..
Siding is easy on ICF's as well, there is a screw strip every 6 inches typically. But it's almost standard to either stucco or brick or stone the outside of a ICF house. they sell brick ledge and you use that to set your brick or stone on..
Your last bit of information is exactly wrong. 98% of all homes are built with Model T technology. Few designers or architects will have any real experience and will naturally steer people towards things they know and are familiar with. That doesn't make them bad people just wrong..
If new technology is going to catch on we can't keep invent shiney Model T's, we have to actually use what we've found out and build that way..
skifixer,
You bet! use ICF's! I do up here in frozen Minnesota.. where it get's so cold our cuss words don't thaw 'til sping and ox turn blue from the cold..
There is a tiny thermal advantage to Using SIP's over ICF's but that can easily be corrected if you are really concerned about saving every single BTU' However you will lose far more heat from windows than from walls!
Against that ICF's go up much much faster than SIP's do and SIP"s are much faster than stick building.. If they went up any faster you'd be finished before you start..
I would plan on using SIP's for roof panels though.. just make sure they are properly installed.. don't let them not use the splines and adhesive.. plus they require a vapor barrier underneath..
"ICF's go up much much faster than SIP's do"there is frenchies tall tale for the day
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Piffin,
I'm absolutely sure about that. I've watched about 20 ICF homes go up and about 10 SIP homes, I've also built both in this house.. ICF is faster than SIP's
yah right , when chickens speak and dogs fly...
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And timber frames are better and cheaper and yet he lives in an ICF home, Huh?
And he said it, not me.
Of course you could always build a timber frame. Cheaper, and stronger than concrete. And cures cancer.
The only ways I can see that high snowfall changes things is with additional roof loads and the fact that much of the above-ground structure will be kept wet by the snow for significant periods. One would think that ICFs would be well-suited for these two problems.
Cold temps, of course, are experienced in areas without deep snow, and where the insulating benefits of snow are not enjoyed. I don't know how ICFs have worked out (for other than basements) in cold areas in general -- only see them for basements around here, and not too often.
A well built ICF house is much better than a sip house in many respects from long-term durability to comfort. ICF houses are as quiet as is humanly possible to build, they moderate temperature swings well above and beyond the R-value of the foam, and will outlast just about any other form of residential construction.
However, and it's a big however, it is much easier to screw up an ICF above ground wall and have something resembling a snake if you aren't careful. SIPs on the other hand are about as dead straight and flat as it comes. Where an "average" ICF wall might be plus or minus 3/8" out of plumb or more, a SIP wall can be dead on.
Of course above average ICF walls can be finished out as flat as any, but it will still never start out as flat as a stick built or SIP wall.
You'll find that contractors in ski towns are staying away from ICFs because of the increased risk of poor quality, not the lack of benefits from a well poured wall. Concrete costs can also be a factor since there is a lot of mud in a full ICF house.
Ask any stucco contractor with ICF experience and they can tell horror stories about snakey walls.
Ski towns are also notorious for high labor costs and there is no better method to reduce labor than to use SIPs.
In the end the reason SIPs are more popular above ground is not that one is better than the other in performance or other factors effecting quality of living, but rather a cost vs. benefit decision in the construction and marketability of the property.
Personally, there is no comparison between the two and I'd rather live in an ICF house every time.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Might the additional weight and it's implications for the foundation be another issue?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Might the additional weight and it's implications for the foundation be another issue?
The addtional concrete for wider footers isn't usually a significant increase in cost in most soil conditions. As for the rest of the foundation, it's really just a continous ICF wall from the footer to the top of the above ground walls. Ledgers are attached for the floor(s).
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
IdahoDan
Well said,
I have both in my home and if I had a clean sheet and started over again. I'd have ICF's right up to the ceiling which would be SIP's
I haven't noticed a great deal of trouble keeping my ICF walls straight.. I also got very creative my second time around and formed my walls into a 8 1/2 foot radius that came out perfect! I used some oak planks I had laying around and ran the edge over the jointer at 7 1/2 degrees and then screwed and glued them together. I then screwed these into the ICF's which formed a perfect 8 1/2 foot semi circle. I should take pictures of my work but right now I store my dock sections in the resulting room under my portico..
Oh as for dealing with the added weight tell your ICF supplier to calculate the load and build the footings accordingly..
I got clever and poured the footings and walls at the same time. I used the wood on top of the forms to brace the ICF's in place. It drove the cement truck driver crazy because I sawed the ICF's into about three foot sections. I had these oak planks and ICF's sitting on top of footing forms. He was absolutely sure they wouldn't hold.. Was he shocked when it turned out to be the simplist, fastet pour he'd ever experianced..