Ideas for inexpensive house construction
The older brother may loose his house, and is hinting he wants to move in with me, (bringing the wife, son, and four dogs along with him).
I have two extra lots with water and sewer on them, and power runs on a pole line down the back alley. I am considering building a two bedroom “rental” on one of the lots, that they could rent from me.
The idea would be about 800 to 900-sf on a walk out basement. Bare minimumalist, to develop a weather tight, and livable space.
Interior finish would be bare bones, maybe even painted plywood floors in some areas, until I can afford to install hardwood, or engineered wood flooring.
Exterior would probably be, T-111 for now, with a metal roof.
Fire wood is “free” for the cutting, and I have an extra wood stove in the shop, (rated for 5500-btu), that I can use for heat. The summers aren’t very hot, so AC is not a requirement.
Any ideas on keeping the construction cost to a minimum?
Replies
There's a guy here named shellbuilder. I think this sort of thing is his specialty. I'll direct this post to him, maybe he'll show up.
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
yer a good brother, Jigs.
How are the building codes there in Idaho?
Edited 6/19/2009 1:32 am ET by rez
We are under the IRC code, which will limit things somewhat. The "AHJ", and I know each other professionally, and get along. So, that is a plus. We do have planning and zoning, so trailers, and reused Shipping Containers are out. If there was a bit more slope to the lots, I might look at banked earth, but the topography seems to make it impractical. I am a licensed Engineer, and know several lumber graders, so that could allow me to do a few things that most people can't, with regard to rough sawn wood and timbers, or logs as structural elements. One of the Brother in Laws, does concrete, and owns all the forms I would need for the concrete work. So, I can borrow them, (I'd have to pay for the snap-ties, but they are relatively inexpensive), and he would probably come help me set up and do the pours. (Particularly, if it means the brother isn't going to ask to move into the apartment he built over his barn.) I, (and several friends), can run equipment, so I plan on renting/borrowing equipment for any excavation, utility, or site work. The lots are on an prehistoric river bar, so the soil is about 50% 6-12-inch river rock. I plan to screen that out, and stock pile it for future use to face any exposed concrete on the basement. The brother is retired, so I figure he can do a little every day during the summer and get it done eventually. A few people mentioned board and batten as a siding option. The materials could be gotten from locals with mini-mills as rough sawn fir, or p-pine, but I'm not sure how air tight I could get the structure using it. Logs are an alternative, but they would be more time intensive than I think I can do now, plus they don't have a very good r-value. I'm thinking about a barrier free house, just because we are all getting older. I'm 52, and the brother is already on Social Security. We will build the "cabinets" in my shop. It is situated between my house, and where the new house would be. My thought on them for now, is just tops on painted plywood risers, and some mobile drawer carts. The plywood would have shelf holes in it, drilled to the 32-mm euro system for movable shelves, drawer guides, and hinges later. For the start, I'd probably just do cloth curtains, that match the ones on the windows. They would differ from the frameless euro cabinets in that there would be no bottoms. I am thinking of just running them to the floor, and securing them to the floor, wall, and top with some kind of cam lock system. The Mooney wall system makes really good sense. I had forgotten about it.Thanks for all the ideas.
You've got some good resources to draw on--human and otherwise. I think you'll also be surprised how much other goodwill help you'll get when more of your neighbors learn what's happening. Salmon is one of friendliest towns I know, one of the few places where you can depend on cars stopping to let you walk across Main Street whether the traffic light is green for them or not.
I have plumbed a few houses up on the bar in my younger years (actually, my dad plumbed 'em, and I had the pleasure of digging the trenches), so I know the kind of rock you'll have to deal with. So, for that and cost-saving reasons, I repeat, forget the basement and go with a frost-protected S.O.G. which will become the finished floor. You'll save enough to (along with other things) put bottoms in the cabinets, which, in turn, allows for a toe space. If you've ever tried to work in a kitchen without toe space, I won't need to convince you.
As for air-sealing under board and batten siding, tar paper performs well, and will still allow drying to the outside, as needed.
If you don't mind using some "scratch-and-dent" plumbing fixtures, e-mail me. While I don't work in the trade any longer, I have a number of sources that would gladly donate to your cause. It would mean a trip to I.F. for you, but that's likely a fairly routine event for you anyway.
Somebody else suggested electric wall heaters as a backup to the woodstove--good idea, even if you only rough in for them as this stage.
Just a thought about basements. Our house here in UT has a basement, and the temp there is pretty constant summer and winter. We have pretty low heating bills in spite of poor insulation because we do a lot of our living below ground. So a small home with a basement could be a net savings - but I agree with you on the up front cost which is the concern here.
The other thing about the slab on grade is that it is probably more earthquake friendly because it can float on top. That may not be the concern up in ID like it is here. The other thing that has been mentioned by the ICF crowd - subterranean termites ARE an issue at least as far north as UT. Commercial construction always treats the ground before pouring. Residential not so much because that is a corner that they can cut, but the original poster might want to check it out in his area before pouring the slab. A termite treatment under the slab is inexpensive and totally worth it if it prevents a problem in the future.
Just for the record:
The OP is not from Idaho Falls; he's from Salmon, Idaho, about 160 miles NNW of me in Idaho Falls. Salmon is a great little town nestled along the Salmon River ("River of No Return") and at the base of the Lemhi Range, which forms the border between Idaho and Montana.
There is a fairly active fault line along the base of the Lemhi range (a Major Halocene fault line, for those who care), and the next valley over experienced a major quake of over 7 on the Richter Scale in 1983. Very little damage, because the whole area is delightfully undeveloped and unpopulated.
Windows could be from salvage or surplus(mistakes). Also fixed glass in frames made on site. Salvaged/surplus doors. Salvaged lumber too and/or rough sawn from local mills.
Used to be that carpenters building their own homes would bring home culled studs from the job, then cut them in half and add a scab piece across the middle, to straigthen them out. Works fine for partition walls. When you have more time than money, it's one good solution.
Shorter joist runs=smaller dimension. The walk-out basement could include several bearing walls to accomplish that.
I have been fortunate to buy many heavily discounted bathroom fixtures which had been on display for a year in showrooms. Speaking to the owner or sales manager of the plumbing supply house worked for me.
Those displays are usually changed during the winter. I found that the old displays are often put in storage until someone asks about them.
I believe that the year-old displays are given to large supply houses by the manufacturers, as a tax write-off, so there's plenty of room for negotiating.
Minimalist built-in kitchen cabinets. No backs (painted sheet rock wall). Paint grade plywood doors, with rounded over edges. Doors can be swapped later for oak. Looks fine with painted frames.
Bedroom closet openings can be covered with fabric, salvaged curtains and hardware, anything that allows them to open and close easily.
I'd use the Mooney wall system. It costs very little in dollars to add because you mill the lumber on a tablesaw yourself from inexpensive culls. So it makes great sense as a long term economy measure.
Edited 6/19/2009 11:11 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Design for no waste (4'x8' modules), vinyl floors, carpet in bedrooms, smaller but standard windows, a porch is a good use of money.
Don't be tempted to put in cheap looking cabinets in the kitchen. I'd rather have rough cut lumber shelves. Make it have a campy feel so it doesn't have a depressing ambiance of temporary housing.
2 or 4 sea cans and some trusses. or straw bail construction
Could you find something to move onto the lot?
Buy windows that were made the wrong size, doors with a ding and some body filler.
I have seen OSB floors clearcoated and they look not bad.
good luck and keep us updated. As mentioned your a good Bro!!
I assume do-it-yourself is not out of the question?
First the basement. Don't have it done, do-it-yourself with ICF's, they are insanely simple and you save enough in the labor to make them probably $10,000 cheaper than having a foundation built..
It's like putting together foam leggos and just about as hard.. when I was bedridden my sister-inlaw finished mine for me. The only experiance she'd had previously was painting her bedroom.
Ask and I'll give you step by step directions on how it's done.
second wood!
Don't buy demensional lumber from a lumberyard! Way too expensive! On a house my size the minimum framing materials would cost you about $125,000. I got wildly extravagent using all fine hardwood and spent only $25,000. That's enough for all the wood required to do everything from double timebrframe to all the hardwood floors, kitchen cabinets , trim and plenty of wood left for built ins..
Black walnut was my most common wood but I had plenty of Maple, Cherry, white oak, tamarack, and loads of really exotic stuff (check out my pictures) My walls will litterly hold a railroad train, while the floors are well enough built to drive a truck on. (as are steps etc..)
I can jump my 280 pounds up and down anyplace in the house and the floors don't quiver or dishes won't rattle!(floors 3 inches thick for example)
Find a local sawmill that sells to pallet mills. There are plenty in every state if you need a list ask and I'll help. A house that size with some extra features will probably cost you under $5000.
There won't be a code issue either.. I'll walk you through it if you want.
T-111 is way too expensive for a SIDING. There are other better, cheaper choices.
What are your other ideas as for siding options?I'm contemplating building a small home on a lot I've purchased and wanted to build the whole thing(minus any 'value' my labor has) for around $25,000. It is in a nice neighborhood so I'd like to avoid vinyl siding, I was going to use Hardi but am open to any ideas.As for my suggestions for low cost building, I buy windows from demo companies/Craig's List/etc.. for less than $10 and often use those on projects, I'll also build elaborately mullioned fixed windows and transoms. Wonderful closet doors, entry doors, and the like can also be found on Craig's List or by talking to a demo company.
Well board and batten would be really cheap. (and fast) here's some budget numbers to consider.. let's say you are using 12 inch wide boards and 4 inch wide battens.. check the price of hardy planking and it will be many times this.
Using something like Tamarack (considered a junk wood by most sawmills) they sell it for 20 cents a bd. ft. so each board would cost you $1.60 and each batten would cost you about .55 cents..
you could do a roughsawn overlap for slightly cheaper
or use a portable planner to make it smooth.
I personally like stone but I don't know what your local stone situation is like. Stone is really simple to do (if time consuming) and maybe there is someplace nearby that has plenty of stone cheap or free.
Look at pictures of what I did with my stone walls (no prior experiance)
I've got a SUPER cool gov. publication from the 60s with some incredible ideas to save materials- interested in some scans to get an idea?
Forrest
Yes!
back to the obervation postA La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Yes I would be interested in a scan, if I can't find it online. If you can give me the title, and/or publication number, I can try to see if it is available online in a pdf format. The USDA, in it's various guises, (Farm Bureau, Soil Conservation Service, National Resource Conservation Service, and Forest Service), have huge catalogs of pdf plans online for any building you might want to build on a farm, or in the woods. Thanks for mentioning it, and reminding me of that resource.
Think surplus.
Your biggest problem is you did not start accumulating 5 years ago, sometimes hard to find specific items at the last minute - start NOW..
Scan craigslist, there are usually free toilets that work with a new $7 repair kit, water heaters that work perfectly well but were replaced for who knows what reason, washers, dryers, etc. , etc. Your biggest problem is that folks usually want the stuff gone 'right now' and you are 100 miles from any population center.
Like others said, the permit (if you need one) may be the most expensive item (here in western WA, the permits and impact fees for me are MORE than everything else combined! Probably not that bad in ID? Power, sewer, and water hookup fees may be a bigger item than cost to build from surplus materials? If the IRC is used by building dept. in your area, you may be 'screwed' and not allowed to use surplus structural material.
The other idea would be to look for a used trailer??
I've built livable 800 sq ft areas for under $1k from surplus (not counting permits), and $500 of the $1k was for roofing!! Used creosoted pole butts (free from power company) as piers for the 'foundation' to avoid concrete costs. Insulation all sheets of closed cell poly foam, etc. Free toilets, tub, sinks, etc.
Basement = 2 20' containers side by side. Openings to walk out section.
1st floor = 2 40' containers side by side, centered ove the bottom 20' so there is a 10' cantlever over the walkout for a shaded porch. Leave a 12" gap between the upper and lower containers so you can run wire, fixtures, and plumbing, plus insulate under the cantalevered section. Larsen truss the outside and blow insulation. Truss frame the top.
This gives you two stories, with about 960sq' space.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
you want cheap, two bedroom one bath, no basement, metal roof concrete block with cells filled.one great room with kitchen. no windows on side of house, block the gable to peak, no porches.1000 sq ft.
it be ugly can withstand hurricane force, no maintance and yoou can do it under 50k
Brownbagg.
That won't work here in northern climates.. concrete block will conduct too much heat out and cold in through the webs. Hence my advocating ICF's which have no such thermal conduction capability..
Also concrete block is an extremely weak structure compared to ICF's I can knock down a concrete wall in a few hours using nothing more than a sledge hammer, however If I try to knock down a ICF wall with it's steel rebar reinforcement and the foam to absorb the impact I won't get anyplace except localized damage..
IN addition there is difficulty adapting concrete block for various sized windows.. whereas with foam block you simply take a sawzall to the block cut a hole in the blocks and toss in the rough opening prior to pouring the forms with Foam..
(you do the same with any plumbing or wiring makes installation a whole lot easier!)
cant knock mine down, Igive you three weeks and you wont be able knock mine down. beside he said cheap ICF are no where near cheap
Maybe he could make a house out of shipping containers like I saw on a tv show. It was nice when done.
Explain your method of construction using block please. I've never seen a cement block wall I couldn't tear down with a sledge hammer. (That's how I demolished all of mine) Really fast too and I'm no where near in shape.
The joints are the weak spot on all cement block walls. Few masons properly soak the cement block prior to installing them so most joints are moisture starved to start with..
As for cheap forms,, well I'll admit you won't buy them for a penny a pound sort of pricing but it turns foundation work from something done by a specialist to a simple Do-It-yourself project. Thus saving the cost of labor and profit in any business.
In my case the first foundation I put up saved me over $10,000 by doing it myself compared to the lowest bid I got.. considering that was less than 500 sq.ft. that's considerable..
I didn't bother getting a second set of bids on the front of the house because I felt so confident I knew what I was doing..
Second he did say it was a nice neighborhood and he wanted things to look nice so some of the ideas here don't really fit.. containers as foundation for example.. Or moble homes..
concrete block with cells filled
Frenchy,
Pay attention will ya? This guy lives and breathes concrete, and is known to be one of BT's resident experts on the subject.
What the hell validity does the fact that you can break down a block house with a sledgehammer have anyway?
I can cut down almost any wood framed house with a chainsaw!
What's your point?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Eric,
If you would please go back to his original statement. He commented about how cement block was hurricane proof..
I assume hurricane implies storm surge which is what will really destroy a home.
However having said that I am certainly willing to learn whatever technique or unique method he has to build a strong durable concrete block house.. Like I pointed out, the joint between blocks end to be the weak point in block construction. In addition It takes some real skill to build a cement block walls.. Such skill isn't required With ICF's after all they are in reality big foam leggos..
Also as I pointed out methods valid on the gulf coast do not translate to Idaho Fall due to the differance in weather..
Frenchy,
This may be mentioned elsewhere, but getting a cement truck (and possibly a pump) to a remote or heavily wooded spot can be very expensive. ICFs are not the answer to all conditions.
Too bad that ICF's aren't a religion, huh? Frenchy would be the Benny Hinn of the construction world.
Baptism would be full immersion in Kool Aide.
Edited 6/20/2009 3:27 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley Carpenter.
There are several things which I have found out,, ICF's, SIP's, The low cost of sawmill wood and Shellac are about all I can offer that's unique. Since two of them are relatively new technology with few people experianced with them my information, experiance has validity. As to sawmill wood hopefully those interested in lower cost construction will look at that as a possible alternative. Finally shellac is one of those wonder finishes that has been eclipsed by marketing from companies pushing their product.. Hence it's been ignored greatly.
Now I could go on and on about how cheap I bought my copper but that's something unique which I don't believe would happen to others so it's of no use to them..
Same with my stained glass windows. etc..
I could blather on and on about how much I saved by doing it myself but then I'd have to admit how long it's taken and the sacrafices I've made along the way..
No those 4 items are usefull to anyone considering building. It's up to them to choose to accept or reject them.
are about all I can offer that's unique.
Frenchy, If that's all you did, offer your experience as others here do, that would be perfectly acceptable. But you always seem to be selling your limited knowledge as if you were competing with other products or systems, even when the system or product which you're selling doesn't suit the criteria of the OP's question.
The implication of such adamant advocacy is that you're equally knowledgeable about the products or systems with which you're "competing".
What most people have learned, through trial and error, when offering their opinions, is that it's appropriate to qualify what they're saying...put them in a framework of their limited personal experience, so that anyone reading or hearing it is able to evaluate their opinions objectively.
Having tried sales and been trained to avoid objectivity or to fake it convincingly, I can appreciate why it may be difficult for a person who has spent their life in that field to change their stripes. But after reading your last exchange with BB, it looks like you're willing to make the effort. Good on ya, mate!
Edited 6/20/2009 7:17 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
There are several things which I have found out,, ICF's, SIP's, The low cost of sawmill wood and Shellac are about all I can offer that's unique.
Frenchy, you forgot to mention your expertise re cellulose insulation.
Joe H
icf are good, I really like them. but you cant buy them at lowes, you have to buy a truck load, and they are not cheap. you still have to finish them stucco, brick etc. then while pouring you got a chance of blow out, not the average person task. oh its possible. there are so many different brand so they cant be mix matchif lowes sold them and I could buy two or two hundred for dollars a piece. I be all over them.But the dude said cheap. CMU are cheap. people give them away for hauling. you can stock pile for years without hurting. The learning curve is differcult but you can learn to lay block in a day time OK, no master but a square house, yes, you can take your time. You can fill the block with a five gallon bucket. I did mine with a front end loader, if you fill the block you dont have to worry if block laying was bad. you could even dry stack.coating outside, paint it if you want, stucco, brick etc.but remember we said cheap. cmu no fire or termites. some termites and rodent will eat icfs. kids bicycle handlebar will eat icf
You bring up a valid point about ICF's. That is unless they are made with Borate in them critters can tunnel into them (up here in the frozen tundra we don't have termites but we do have carpenter ants)
On the other hand depending on construction method that may not be serious.. since there is no connecting web that critters can use to go from one side to the other all damage done by critters will be external..
Again I said that it depends on construction method.. What I did was put heavy guage copper as a shield between the ICF's and the timberframe above it. I suspect most would use aluminum flashing rather than the copper I did but my copper was cheaper than aluminum flashing.. (lucky buy)
Baptism would be full immersion in Kool Aide.
No, you'd just get "the symbol" on your forehead in shellac.
Are you aware of Idaho Falls? While I can't say I know it like the back of my hand I am relatively certain it's not heavily wooded. and the OP mentioned it was adjacent to his house. However all that is moot really. Several solutions are possible.. most common is pumped cement. However access to heavy equipment like lumber trucks and if he were to choose block the differance in size and weight of either a cement truck or a block truck is trivial..
However your point has merit.. Some sites simply do not lend themselves to easy construction with any method. Hopefully if that were the case the OP would have mentioned it..
Around here getting a pump truck to show up costs $1,000. Plus I have a personal distrust of pumped concrete that it is too watery.
When I moved in to an apartment in Salt Lake City, the moving truck could not make the turn to get to the apartment building, so I ended up paying an extra $700 for them to load my stuff onto a panel truck to get it to the building. Presumably during construction the concrete truck drove straight across where there were now buildings, but just because something is "next to a house" does not make it accessible. As I recall Idaho Falls is nestled into the western edge of the Rockies, and so could easily have similar situations in established neighborhoods.
I spent $200 to show up and $100 an hour for my pumper. Since It took less than 2 hours to pump and then clean up It cost me $400. (would have cost $50 less if the area had a place to wash out instead of washing back at the yard)
Now Mine was a trailer pulled by a 1 ton truck and not one of those giant things with the arms etc.. I suppose one of those would cost $1000.. (I mean they cost $300,000 each) The trailer had 200 feet of hose on it because he could roll right next to my house but he said that he would often have to start pumping in street in which case he'd bring 500 feet or more with him..
As for strength of the concrete simply ask for the concrete company to bring you a test core and explain you'll wanted it tested. My 5000 PSI concrete broke at 6798 pounds. Most pumped concrete is 4000# and it cost me an extra $20 a yard to get the higher strength concrete (with fibers embedded in it) Since I only used 12 yards I felt the added cost was well worth it..
Hey Frenchy, what company did you use for the pump truck?
Seems like a good price.
Don't have an imediate need, but, something to file away for future needs.
It was a pump trailer not a truck per say And it was Cemstone. Oh and they were higher the last time I used them, It cost me closer to $500. I think the price is determined by how many forms you buy or something like that
Edited 6/23/2009 3:39 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks for the feedback.
Like I say, no imediate need anyway - just like to have the info.
Being cheap by nature, I've poured a lot of foundation walls with line pumps rather than pumper trucks. The cost savings are often offset by needing an extra guy to bull the hose around. I remember several of the pours as being the hardest days work I ever did. They are fine for slabs, but murder for walls.
Hmmm My walls were a piece of cake.. I hired a kid from the grocery store who was happy to get $20.00 an hour and he bulled the hose around while I supervised. He was sad that the whole job only took 2 hours (including the floor)
The kid bulled the hose, you supervised. Who directed the flow? Who vibrated? By bulling the hose I mean moving the 200 lbs or so of concrete in the last 15 feet around, often with it draped on your shoulder, so that the guy directing the flow has any chance of getting it into the forms where he wants it. Maybe the batch plant sent you some invisible concrete fairies to help out.
Maybe the batch plant sent you some invisible concrete fairies to help out.
I think one of them has stuck around, to write his '"there's nothin' to it" posts. :-)
Edited 6/24/2009 12:20 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
And I thought Texas Tom had some Tall Tales.
And I thought Texas Tom had some Tall Tales.
Livin' up north, maybe Frenchy has some Paul Bunyan fantasies. He feels like a bunion at times. :-)
I've had several "tails" for Texans, mostly about the weather and our misquito's. I think you can go back through the posts and find them.
Frenchy I think the smaller pump trucks are for grouting cmu wall cells oridginally, but now they use them for the icf walls,I think with some minor modifications to the pumps or hose nozzels, they will handle small concrete jobs.
$800 per pump here.
Reinforced poured concrete is way stronger then a laid block wall unless you completely fill the blocks with concrete and rebar. And unless you do that you are very correct frenchy that you can knock down any block wall with a sledge hammer (or at least put a hole though it in no time.) I have put more then a few additions with full basements and when it came time to put in the opening between the new basement and the old on a block wall foundation it was simply a matter or breaking the web on the block with a sledge and then using a angle grinder with a diamond blade to clean up and square up the opening. Took longer to clean up the rubble then it took to make the opening. On a poured concrete wall I had to hire a concrete sawing subcontractor to do it. and it took all day to make set up the saw and then make the cuts. You would be wasting your time to even try and knock even just a small hole threw a 8 inch poured concrete wall with anything less then a jack hammer.Also in my area Damp proofing is not enough for a basement wall must be fully water proofed and insulated. An ICF wall or better yet a precast wall meets the water proofing and insulation needs a block wall or standard form poured wall must still be water proofed and insulated. ICFs save you even more when you consider the steps of insulating and water proofing as well.But the original point is that we are trying to build cheaply and a even though a block wall is not as strong as a poured concrete wall it is strong enough to pass code in most situations. Also SIPS construction can also be a very viable solution as well yes it will cost more upfront but the energy savings over the years could be huge. You can not get a tighter shell then a properly constructed SIP structure.
And total cost over time vs upfront cost should also be considered. Hay I built a remote cabin in AK with nothing more then old pallet lumber but I would not consider it a energy efficient home
Edited 6/20/2009 1:10 pm ET by MFournier
The reason I suggested ICF's is because at my very best any block wall I made would look like the ocean,, nice and wavy <grin> I assume that is the case also with the OP since he didn't mention foundation experiance.
Since nearly anyone can do a decent job with ICF's simply by following the directions or video it really is suitable for the do-it-yourselfer. The money saved is significant enough to more than offset the cost of the forms..
In my estimation the most expensive part of building a good house cheaply is the foundation. (he mentioned a walk out basement)
The wood itself would be not extremely high. Probably well under $3000 if sawmill wood is purchased.. that could make a neat interesting home too if care was used. he says he has sources for everything else at extremely steep discounts..
Frenchy-I'm down here in brownbag's country (Florida), and most block houses I see built these days are solid concrete filled (along the coast).I'm building a house for myself soon, and did a very extensive estimate on ICF vs. solid filled CMU. I chose CMU because there were a lot of hidden costs with ICF. I will say it depends on the house (mine is two story CMU - 12" lower, 8" upper.I estimated this against 6" ICF and kept hitting a snag ($) when I got to - bracing (build or rent), rebar - lots of rebar, stucco, and all the special little ICF connectors and hangers. Not to mention keeping out those pesky little termites and ants.My engineering is calling for 12" x 30" footing, vertical #5 bar @ 32" o.c., 3 bars each corner, double bond beam at floors/roof. I'm gonna through in a bond beam at mid wall just because.The way I see it, I need no bracing, masonry cement is cheap stucco, conduit + masonry box is cheap enough, and termites can't tunnel.There are a lot of blanket statements out there about ICF being better. What happens if you hit an ICF wall with a sledge hammer? Or a flying 2x4? Not picking a fight with you, just sayin'.Sorry about that tangent - as far as cheap construction goes, seems hard to beat block foundation (assuming no basement), 2 x 4 walls, aluminum windows, vinyl, and 3 tabs. I think the mobile home manufacturers got it figured out - If you use a different siding, remember to factor in paint, and paint again, and paint again....
I assume you mean when the ICF is filled.. well bring that 2x4 or sledge hammer on.
I watched someone attempt to tear down a wall that was put up in error with ICF's like normal he attacked it with a big sledge hammer and first the foam absorbed the force of the blow. after kind of wearing the foam away after a good hal hour of beating blows to the rebars reinforced concrete got no place.. he then rented a jack hammer on a skid steer and one six foot wall took him three days. He didn't so much knock it down as wear it out..
In the south I, I assume that cooling is your most expensive energy requirement. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
What do you do to deal with energy savings or doesn't it really matter?
Cement block filled with concrete would still be weaker than ICF with it's steel reinforcement.. the joint being the weak point.
That probably doesn't matter except where storm surge is possible.
Sorry Frenchy, I'm not taking this thread anymore off tangent than it already is. If you want to start another thread, do that. I'm not fighting with you, either. Just didn't like the blanket statement.I'm not building with ICF's, I have my reasons. ICF's don't belong in a conversation called "inexpensive house construction".
Your reasons may be valid but you haven't given them to me.
And yes they do have a place with regard to saving money as I said why; (which to repeat) if you aren't capable of doing a nice foundation using cement block yourself the cost of labor using a product which will allow you to do it yourself will more than more than off set the cost of the forms.. Just for imformation much of what you spoke about as added costs I didn't have.. the bracing and staging required was supplied by the vender as was supervision of my work prior to the pour. There are stronger and better ways to hang floors off ICF's than brackets.
Finally I don't know anybody who does stucco off ICF's it's much faster and easier to use EFIS than stucco if that's the look your going for..
That is because EFIS is trash. The worst exterior finish possible. Leaks constantly, and is impossible to see the leaks.
Don't put the cr@p on anything. It has already been outlawed as a exterior finish in a couple of states, because of leakage problems.
but you can only do the dryvit if you are a license contractor that been trained in dryvit. they wont sell their product to the public. its the same with ifsFrenchy keep comparing labor on icf with cmu , which he right but apples to apples you have to include contractor labor too with icf. you either have both labor or both without labor. either way cmu cheaper. Not the best. I like ICF a lot better than cmu but you cant buy ICF at lowes, and people give cmu away free to get rid of them.His claim was " A CHEAP HOUSE"
I saved block anytime I find one that is a half or more. CMU is way better down here, I would think. Stucco on icf would get beat to pieces by flying debris in a hurricane. Or EIFS fly off in big sheets after the nails rust.
I believe the CMU can also be drystacked and surface bonded, although I don't know if it would fly down here.
well if you fill the cell with concrete, stack stack I think would withstand a hurricane.
You have a valid point about how the makers of ICF's need to go to the mass market to get the price down .. I think that's a bit premature in that there have been generations of block workers who know the details involved in doing good work.. they pass it on to DIY and the potential for decent work exists..
ICF's however don't have that mass of knowledge. Only a few here have actaully done ICF's
Well a little bit of knowledge Is a dangerous thing.
EFIS is wonderful if used in the right application. The right application isn't a typical stick built house because of the reasons you are well aware of.. However a ICF house is a whole other kettle of fish.
Commercial building use EFIS with great results because of their familarity with how it needs to be dealt with..
I recommend scrubbing the basement idea; go with slab-on-grade, insulate the perimeter w/2" Blueboard; do a polished trowel finish, and stain/seal it for the final finish. Area rugs will warm it up, and be decorative, as well. It's also a great floor for a woodstove and firewood handling.
Being your (almost) neighbor in Idaho Falls, I know you have lots of access to timber there in Salmon. For siding, I'd go with rough-sawn board and batten. You could even do some of the interior walls with rough-sawn. Many of the local sawmills will be hungry.
Lay out the bath and kitchen back-to-back to save on plumbing. Have the water heater right there, too. Try to have the least amount of under-slab water lines. Run the main plastic water line in a 4" plastic pipe sleeve under the slab to where you come up in the plumbing wall. Use an outside bury hydrant (they're cheap at CAL Store) instead of a thru-the-wall silcock.
Go with 2 x 6 24"OC for exterior to get an R-19 or R-21 wall. Use raised-heel trusses to get good insulation above the exterior walls and prevent ice-damming.
Idaho has recently approved gable-end vents for the plumbing system, so do that to minimize roof penetrations. (Tie all vents into a single 3") Have the woodstove vent going out thru the roof as near the ridge as possible--snow sliding off a metal roof can raise h*ll with any vent lower down.
Think of Habitat for Humanity floor designs. They are meant to minimize material use and designed for easy and efficient construction. Rectangular box, gable roof, water and sewer on a single interior wall, ICF foundation, 14-2 wiring with no three way switches (every switch adds up), keep the openings in the framing small (smaller shorter headers) no double window or sliding door units and you might think about truss framing for the roof if the price is right.
Buy your windows, doors, fixtures, appliances, cabinets and counters prior to breaking ground, you can look on Craigslist, hardware stores, and any local building material factories to pick up seconds, damaged goods and used material so you can frame and plan to fit. Saw a HFH house that was done in two different vinyl siding colors, tan front and back and white sides because the siding was bought cheap on closeout because the supplier did not have enough left of either to do a whole house and it had sat for months.
Good luck shopping
-Day
>>Think of Habitat for Humanity floor designs...<<
Good suggestions and that is exactly the H4H model with a few exceptions:
>> ICF foundation,<< usually not - too $$$
>> 14-2 wiring << won't pass inspection here, don't know about Idaho or your locale. In DE, H4H are always inspected. Minimum 20A circuits for bathroom, laundry and 2 for kitchen.
>> with no three way switches << again won't pass inspection here unless a room only has one door -- overhead light or switched outlet must be switched when you "enter" the room and again when you "leave" the room.
Translation: any room that has an exterior door will automatically have at least 2 - 3 way switches and perhaps a 4 way maybe with other 3 ways - minimum - depends on how many other ways you can "leave" the room. Here we must have at least 2 exterior doors - so now you are up to a minimum of 2 - 3 way circuits.......
>> keep the openings in the framing small << do need those bedroom egress windows though.
Probably important to keep whatever is built to code, and have it inspected, especially if it will be rented.......
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
JTC1,
I stated in another post that ICF would indeed not work in this situation. But... For H4H projects I have several times run the numbers diy ICF and pouring vs paid contractor forming and pouring for foundations (never could get a contractor to put his forms up and then us do the pour). The price came out ahead for the ICF's 3 or 4 times and things got really cheap with donations and breaks from the ICF suppliers. This was during the boom years 4 to 7 years ago when they could not get contractors to donate time because they were booked. As for wiring, yes, things should be built to code. I live in MO and in my locale 14 ga and 15a circuits are allowed for lighting and receptacles except in the kitchen (12-2 and 20a GFCI) and a few other specific circuits for the most part. Yes, H4H is inspected here as well. A well thought out floor plan can avoid some three way switches. If a hall is short enough no three way is called for, open floor plan living room/eat in kitchen limits doorways to rooms so fewer switches are needed. They had a floor plan that only called for 1 three way switch. The point was to limit wiring runs and use through a well thought-out floorplan.I stand by my thought on keeping framing openings small. A 5 sq ft egress can be a single window as opposed to a double unit. Another example is to use a single exterior door as opposed to a sliding glass door 8 ft wide unit. This makes for smaller shorter headers which is cheaper than long and tall headers. Again, it works within code.
-day
Tangent alert!!!In reading thru this thread it really becomes apparent to me different approaches to saving money that will work for a DIY and a pro.when you are doing this for a living, you can't really do a most of the suggestions here.A pro(s) needs to figure in his/her/their time.We can't keep piles of marginally useless stuff in a warehouse and wait for an opportunity to use it.We can't wait for materials to go on sale at some salvage house or big box store.we can't spend hours trying to save 6" off the end of every other sheet of drywall.we can't spend our evenings and weekends driving and calling to find stuff marked down or on clearance.we can't spend all day farting around with stuff that needs to be "fixed" before it can be installed.We can't walk away from a discount door or window or appliance or.............. and say good enuf...we can't sort thru 2000 sq.ft. of flooring that was dropped off a loading dock and save the busted ones (that amount to 55%) to use in closets.A pro has to be able to walk away knowing that he didn't compromise on 99.9% what he did because we have to stand behind our product because even if we work for 1/10th of what the "going rate" is the customer will biatch and moan when the bargain $h!t we installed goes bad...rant over (not really)
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Party pooper !!!
Well said
You've made a clear case why a pro needs to do it the way they do.. I understand that..
Being a DIY I was able to find bargins far afield from those a pro could ever do.. Since I didn't have to pay my own wages if something added 200 more hours of time but saved on the cost of materials I gladly did it..
Classic example is wood..
You simply call a lumberyard or 3 and send the lowest bidder a set of plans. They do the rest for you. Saving you a great deal of time. In return the wood for a 5500 sq.ft. house will easily exceed $100,000
Me? I went to a sawmill and bought all hardwood, black walnut, hardmaple, white oak, cherry, etc.. and only spent $25,000. that includes all the wood for flooring trim cabinets and built ins..
Now to be fair if I had to pay for all the work I did once I bought the wood I would have probably lost money on the deal. But I simply pocketed the $75,000 and spent it on other stuff.
but we dont have sawmills here.
Since there are sawmills in New Mexico and Arizona I'll bet you've got plenty of sawmills. go to woodmizer and find some.. (they keep a list of every state's bandsaw mills.)
what good is new mexico and azorina going do me.
You can have illegals pack it to Alabama on their backs for $.25 a board. They are on their way anyway and would be glad to pick up some extra money.
Brownbagg.. every state has sawmills.. Like I said check with woodmizer and they will give you a listing of some around you. (it's part of their service) Once you find the woodmizer sites you'll also find the sawmills ina barn type places and part time sawmills etc..
Or go to the nearest pallet mill and ask where they buy their wood from.. There are about a zillion sawmills in your state! Well maybe I exagerate a little bit..
I agree with you 99%!
(Its just when I'm DIY on my own projects that I follow a somewhat different route)View Image
all of your points are valid... have have ZERO to do with the OP
NO you can't do this on a job on which you are being paid... nor can you do MOST of this if you are pay'n for someone elses labor...
BUT you can do most of this if you are building for yourself and it's your dime...
thats why i only build for me... BUT when i'm pay'n for someone elses labor then I have no problem pay'n retail to keep that person in materials so that they can be productive...
no reason for a rant... just understand the subject before you go off...
P:)
This sidetrack is interesting--scrounging vs buying; saving vs paying the man.
The more people you have paying/buying/wasting, the more opportunity for there is for the bottom feeders to do a little quality scrounging.
"When the lions feast, so do the jackals."
Sometimes you're the lion, sometimes you're the jackal.
And sometimes you're the jackass.Just sayin...Been there too...
Or the dung beetle... ;o)
when I built mine 70% of the cost was molding trim, doors, cabinets, tile. everything else is cheap
Your'e no help at all--who's gonna be able to scrounge off'n you?
Mister T,I am a pro and I agree that there is no way I could do a client's project using those money saving methods. Heck, I'd charge more to install re-use items or otherwise client-provided materials than if I just went to the store and picked it out for myself.But, being a pro who and remodeling my own home in my spare time I am always hunting around for deals. I look online in the morning before work then plan pickups around my lunch time and I check the clearance racks while I am in the stores buying client project items. I usually use ebay for "buy it now" or use an auction sniper service so I don't need to hang around the computer all day. Storage auctions most commonly happen on the weekends so I make it to them when I can.It becomes routine, sort of a way of life, and certainly is not for everyone.DC
the customer will biatch and moan when the bargain $h!t we installed goes bad...
They never seem to remember whose money was saved.
Joe H
Agree with all of your points in this post, but they are not the same as your original post.
re: "all 14 ga" - does not = "mostly 14 ga", same issue with 3 way switch statement.
>>A 5 sq ft egress can be a single window as opposed to a double unit.<<
Here, anyhow, a 5 sq ft egress window must to be a single unit, 2 @ 2.5 double unit does not fulfill the egress requirement (or pass inspection).
You can put an egress window together with other windows into a multiple window unit, but at least one of them has to meet the egress requirements all by itself.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
but at least one of them has to meet the egress requirements all by itself.that so that fireman can crawl in your window with his air tank on to pull you out
>>that so that fireman can crawl in your window with his air tank on to pull you out<<
Affirmative.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
JT,
You are kind of splitting hairs here. Neither you nor I know the codes in Salmon, ID where the OP is located. I am putting out the general idea of cost savings by not 'overbuilding'. It is very easy for tradespeople and Diy'ers who normally work to a high standard to overspend, overbuild, and over complicate a job they are doing for themselves where one of the objectives, as it it here, is to save money. There is a time and place for fine home building but building a rental house on the cheap is not it. I did not intend nor did I state 'all 14-2'. I am fully aware there are places you must have 20a circuits but, if allowed by code, I am suggesting that he do 15a circuits where he can. Same with switches, if you think about the floor plan, switch placement, and lighting placement you can sometimes meet code and still only have one switch.For windows, yes again, I understand egress sizing rules. I am simply saying a single double hung window (with a 5 sq ft egress opening within the allowed dimensions, of course) could be used as opposed to two double hung windows side by side in a single unit (EACH with a 5 sq ft opening making it 10 total sq ft of egress opening) eg a 30" rough opening vs a 60" rough opening. Think about how large a header has to be for a double garage door vs a single one.
A double unit may look pretty and let in more light but the OP could realize some savings by foregoing such an item. -Day
>> I did not intend nor did I state 'all 14-2'. I am fully aware there are places you must have 20a circuits but, if allowed by code, I am suggesting that he do 15a circuits where he can. Same with switches, if you think about the floor plan, switch placement, and lighting placement you can sometimes meet code and still only have one switch.<<
Probably not your intent, but here is exactly what you said in xxxxx.21:
>>.....ICF foundation, 14-2 wiring with no three way switches (every switch adds up), keep the openings in......<<
I was merely trying to keep him legal, safe and insurable, especially if this dwelling will perhaps be rented for some period of time.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
rdesigns has a good suggestion with the finished frost protected slab-on-grade. You have to plan ahead to make sure the plumbing is where you want it, but you get a lot for your money with it. Just make sure you don't skimp on insulation and a vapor barrier under the slab or it will be cold and damp.
If you want to go with a foundation, I don't know how you would save $10K by using ICF's. A poured foundation that size wouldn't even cost $10K. Frenchy does have good ideas for building a strong, well-insulated house, but only if you put absolutely no value on your own time.
T-111 makes an ok sheathing/siding for the short term, but it's not a good long-term solution. It makes a good base for another type of siding if you don't wait too long. Otherwise board and batten is a good choice.
Read up on the Mooney wall system, also known as cross-hatched walls. Build with 2x4 studs, that's all you need for strength, and run junk 2x2's across the inner face. Insulation with cellulose and you'll have a tight, super-insulated house for little additional cost. Much easier to do that part right at the start. Pretty much everything else can be improved over time.
If you can believe this, The Amish are down on the coast building SIPS. They are selling for 35 bucks a foot dryed in with shingles. All you have to do is finish the inside and they are rated for 150 mph winds. The house plans are in the 800' to 1000' range. I can get a number this weekend if you like as I am going down there.
Due to the recent state of the economy, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
I built a small storage/shop outbuilding. Here's some of the things I did to keep costs down.
View Image
2x6 walls @ 24" o.c., r-19 batts
lap-board siding only where it shows most (t-1-11 with batts on the rest), shingles only where it shows (composition roll roofing on the back side).
all windows gathered from yard sales.
simple gable roof, short span allowed for 2x4 rafters, no fascia
exterior trim (and batts) is rough-sawn cedar fence boards from a demo'd fence that was taken out down the street.
paint color chosen from my collection of leftovers
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Don't listen to the ICF argument, it is the most expensive option. Baseboard heat for backup and a good woodstove for the main heat. I am with you on the painted floors but might price out the cheapest laminate flooring also.
Some good points about finding board and battens at a local sawmill. I have done lots of sheds and garages with dirt cheap "utility cedar" that was next to nothing.
I don't know much about your situation, but I'm wondering whether in the long run having a 800 sf residence on your lot may turn out to be an impediment to realizing its full value in the future.
What about making the residence over an unfinished garage on the alley (or for that matter a slab on grade that could be converted into a garage later) so that you could still build a larger house down the road?
If you do decide to build a small house, it might be a good idea to design it so it can be easily expanded, either for your relatives or to be more marketable if you sell it.
Shame you are in Idaho.
I could bring you over to the barn and donate some good windows to the cause.
Re. construction.
Size it for maximum span for 2 span dimensional lumber.
I dont recall span tables but go 24' deep with center bearing for 2x8 or whatever the bearing is.
I'd consider doing a cape cod style with unfiinished attic so you could expand it later.
If you can do it with attic trusses it might be less expensive but you have more latitude with rafters.
you could frame the exterior walls with 2x6's at 24" on center, do california corners to minimize lumber, single top plates if you are using trusses (keep trusses right on top of your 2x6 walls.
Build with even dimensions and think about how to lay out for minimum waste for sheathing, etc.
If you want gable end overhangs, spec 1' either side, and have the width in 8' or 4' multiples (again for deck and roof sheathing)
Set windows so they work with the stud layout so you dont burn thru extra studs with extra king posts.
There was an article years ago on how to build effeciently and all this stuff was covered. You might want to search it.
Also, talk to the lumber companies about any mis-orders of windows/doors/etc that they want to unload cheap.
Once the product sits for a while, around here they load them on a trailer and take to auction where they get pennies for the dollar. If you can find those auctions and have a good material list for the home, you could save a bundle on windows, doors, etc.
You are a good brother, but smart too. I cant imagine moving all of them in my home. I already have plenty of kids and too many dogs.(3)
ICF and CMU. up in the frozen north CMUs are never filled and they don't withstand freeze thaw cycling. I have a vidieo of me taking down a CMU wall by shaking it then get the hill out of the way when it came down. and no insulation. granted we don't have termites here.As for the use of a concrete pump truck not always needed for ICF. I made my boat house with ICF and poured it with a skid steer. A fiend of mine, GC made a ICF pourer that fits on the front of his skidsteer. no pumptruck needed.
I stuccoed over my ICF 2 storey house and it has taken a few tornado hits with no problems. I have a few window screens out there some where.
So let's look at apples and apples. Flordia codes and temps are differnet that Idaho and Northern Canada.
I dont know what that siding that was mentioned that would fly off. Educate me please.
Vinyl siding is ugly cr#p and a waste of time and money. I have seen houses hit with hail and the only plastic left on the wall was under the nail heads. Land fill in progess.
Califonia corners? havn't heard that on either?
How come no was has mentioned cord wood stack wall constuction. 2 off set layers stuccoed both sides. borate the heck out of it.
Most any siding will fly off at 100 mph, I have had 120+ at my house. I have asbestos siding on a house built in '48
A ex client built a mother-in-law cottage with cordwood walls and timber framed truss's? i reckon thats what they are called . He used locust poles cut to 12" lengths for the walls and black-walnut12"x12" cut to 6"byes for the timbers of his roof. The windows came from old houses for little of nothing he just advertised he needed used windows and would pay $5.00 a window for what he needed and he would remove them and haul away. Doors the same way. Plus all the moulding he could shake a stick at--hehhehe-- a little trades humor there. Thats all he had done when I was downto visit him a few years ago but he is as frugal a feller if there ever was witha heck of a imagination, so hard tellin what he has come up with now.
Plus all the moulding he could shake a stick at
Congratulations!
dedubya receives the ' Ol' Plain Jane Joke but Still Funny' award.
Saaalute! View ImageView Image
Thankyou--Thankyou I,m here till tuesday.
D.W. off to spread 20 cu.yds of mulch with a bunch of underage convicts .
What did your wife do to get on the mulch gang?
Shootfire and save matches, I couldn't get her to even look at a mulch fork,the D.W. is my intitials , at my present job I have been volunteered to supervise a bunch of teenage boys that are doing community service instead of going to juvee1,) sexual battery 2,) drug offence3,) parole violation4,)and under age drinking pretty well covers them all. But They seem like pretty good kids and work like a bunch of trojans. My rules are when they work with me are, No cell phones, they say yes sir- no sir ,they be on time ,and they get along even if they do not like one another.
So far I have had only one situation out of my younguns, a small argument between two alfa males, a quick douse with a water jug cooled them two down, and one mother that thinks I am her sons personal chef and cauffuer, and had the nerve to know why I couldn't wait for her to put on her face before I pulled out with my other younguns to go to work.I had to currie her pretty much from the get go, then the poor kid tried to appolagise for her lazy butt as he was imbaressed by her inconciderate rudeness , If I had her as a parent I would have been in trouble growing up also.
Thanks for working with them, they probably need someone to look up to.
I think I need to refine my earlier post. I suggested ICF foundation (not whole structure) to save money on the basis of it saving paying a contractor to come in to form and pour the foundation. I have been involved in several HFH homes done this way when we could not get someone to donate time and forms to get the foundations or basement walls up. They are easy for inexperienced people to learn and go up fairly quickly.
Then you posted that your BIL had the forms and the know-how and all you had to pay for was the ties and rebar. That is the obvious way to go. I don't want to be lumped in to the 'you must use ICFs' group.
You are a smart guy, do whatever is cheapest or easiest for you.
There are going to be trade offs. Somethings are going to be more expensive but easier for you. You could mill all your own dimensional lumber and not spend a penny if you have or can borrow the right equipment but do you really have the time? You want to get the house built quickly, I suspect. If you have to drive 160 miles to pick up some fixtures, is it worth the gas? Keep it all in perspective, you are going to have to make choices. I have flipped a fair amount of houses where the name of the game is keeping costs down. Don't spend a dime to save a nickel.
-Day
if I could buy the icf at a local yard, I be doing it in a heartbeat. I like icf, I have a "reward" sample on my desk. the only concern is the price of the icf and the covering.
A split-foyer is about the cheapest way to build a decent size house.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
A split-foyer is about the cheapest way to build a decent size house.
Could you elaborate on that?
Thanks
Just an inexpensive way to get a reasonable size house.4 ft. foundationbasic rectangle 24 x 32 or 36 12 ft joistssimple truss roof2 1/2 flight stairsa pretty Vanilla design but very easy on the bank account..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
I have a few recommendations for building cheap...
1. Craigslist.
I have been using craigslist to remodel my own house (slowly) and have been able to round up some excellent deals, often getting brand new or barely used high end at sometimes 10% retail cost. My best CL deal was getting a never used 30" Viking stove for $1000. I also picked up two sets of brand new garage door panels for $100.
2. Ebay.
For smaller stuff like light fixtures and plumbing fixtures that have low shipping cost you can usually get brand new items for about 50% less than retail. If you get lucky, you can find large items that are nearby and "pickup only" for even better savings.
3. Self Storage Auctions.
Call up your local self storage facilities and see if they offer a notification service or newsletter for their upcoming auctions. Usually it's pretty hit-and-miss but I have seen many storage units open to reveal a remodeler's cache of saved surplus building materials. Best finds include a well cared for vintage cast iron tub, name brand windows and doors, and stockpiles of copper pipe and romex cable.
4. The big box.
I never go to Home Depot or Lowes without walking to the back to see what's being clearanced out. Savings usually start at 10% but can move much lower with time and good dealings with the store manager. My best box finds were a 3/4 stained glass entry door that retailed over $700 for $10; Discontinued Samsung refrigerator that retailed for $1600 was $630 delivered with extended warrantee; two sets of garage door hardware kits for $75.
Collecting building materials this way takes LOTS of diligence and determination, not to mention good forethought and storage capacity. But the cost savings is just enormous and sometimes helps to make decisions (I was going to use white subway tile in the bathroom but got white marble for way less) and other times you get frustrated because you can't find what you need at a discount and you are forced to pay retail.
As a side note, you can save lumber by building in a 4' x 8' modulation, splitting spans, using conventional lumber instead of engineered lumber, building using the load path method, and by using alternative materials like OSB, PEX, Laminates, and Vinyl.
Good planning and determination will save you many $$$$.
DC
Hi Jigs-n-fixtures,
Low cost flooring......put down 3/4 t&g subflooring as usual.......least expensive, simply seal it with 3 coats of oil based poly.
Next higher cost.....trowel oak wood filler over the installed OSB.....use a floor sander to slick it out.....stain color of your choice and finish with poly.
Very unique look passes code for finished flooring. Damage is easily repaired if you even see it.
Pedro the Mule - Good looks at low cost
pedro buddy,
If you go find a local sawmill that is used to selling to pallet mills and railroad ties their prices are extremely modest for hardwood , good hardwood!
let me show you how modest.. what does a 3/4 inch tongue and groove 4'x8' sheet of plywood cost? $30.00? $40.00?
If you buy say Ash or tamarack or some other low priced wood you can buy the same amount of hardwood for $6.40 sometimes a bit lower. That's based on .20 cents per bd.ft. right now the last I checked such wood was selling for 17 cents and since that was a couple of years ago the price could be even lower.
Nearly every major city has someplace that makes pallets. If you read the spec's for a GMA pallet (the standard) it's pretty good wood No rot or loose knots,, no wane or anything you wouldn't want to show off on flooring.
Poly is much more expensive, stinks, and dries a ton slower than shellac. Plus poly when damaged reqires sanding to repair invisably. Shellac on the other hand only requires a wipe with a denatured soaked rag to wipe out sratches or damage to the finish. Unlike common myths shellac is a great floor finish! Extremely durable. My 150 pound dog (who refuses to clip his claws) still hasn't damaged my shellaced flors all these years later. (I could go on and on)
But shellac is the easiest and cheapest finish out there!
Hi frenchy,
If you go find a local sawmill that is used to selling to pallet mills and railroad ties their prices are extremely modest for hardwood , good hardwood!......shellac.
Oh no doubt excellent choices......I was shooting for the flavor of speed and the 3/4 OSB is down to 7.96 per 4x8 sheet around here....counts as subflooring and finish all in one.
The material you're speaking of......are you having to plane it prior to installing or is it close enough to install and simply sand?
My own floors, Australian Yellow Knotty Pine was sanded smooth at the factory, thick enough not to need t&g and .75 bf......light sanding and ready to finish at that price.
Pedro the Mule - Always thinking about the future
3/4 OSB as finished flooring? I suppose depending on how close together the floor joists are.. Too springy for me though. I suppose later you could cover it with carpet when more money is available.
I've read every post... and with the exception of junkhound... i think i can build for less than anyone... and do it well...
you save your money buy'n.... it's that simple... after you get a basic design with nothing cast in stone as far as windows doors and finishes...
i happen to like concrete for floors... so i'm a fan of building on a slab and finishing for the finished floor so to start I'd have $2(or less) a sf in a finished slab floor...
with wood framing 2x stuff as cheap as it is right now ... thats something i just order but shop around for the best price... single story 30 x 40ft I'd allow $1 sf for frame'n... might do a steep pitch roof to gain the added loft space which might add to the cost... but would add space...
windows and doors $1 sf max
insulation... if i had to i could scrounge it up but think i'd just go for a low bid
drywall not alot you can do here... but all the scrap gets glued into stub bays for added mass... good planning goes a long way
siding... think i'd look for a deal on a hardie type product... just because it'll hold paint for 20 years... won't rot, pop, burn,dent or warp
electrical stuff... i buy wire..boxes ...switches and recepticals and covers off ebay and can save 50% or more... fixtures when lowes or HD clearance them it's 90% off..
toilets and sinks can be had free if you look... faucets i like new mostly but EBAY for 20 cents on the dollar same for door hardware and kitchen & bath hardware
kitchen cabs... craigslist... full kitchen for $200 and you'll usually get a sink disposeall and faucet... maybe even a stove
countertops ... concrete... mine cost me about $2 a running foot...
paint... all "oops" batch it and make up 10-20 gallons of the same color i never pay more than $5 a gallon for really good paint... most of mine is really good paint at less than $1 a gallon...
trim... primed mdf 5.25 base costs 50 cents a foot and looks nice... doors & windows get 1x with a few details looks very nice and can be done for very little
always use 10% off coupons if you must buy anything from HD or Lowes (post office change of address packs have them inside)
look for your local salvage store... i always find cases of caulk & glue for 50cents a tube...
roofing.... I'd look for odd ball good stuff you'll only need about 12sq so if you can come up with 6sqs of anything really good... then you can do one side... i believe in 30-40-50yr stuff i never get cheap quality materials... i get good quality stuff cheap
always keep in mind what you need and be ready to pull of to the curb and load it up if you happen to see something that could work for you... look at everything on clearance at HD and lowes.... last month they had double hung wood windows reg $200 for $28 each lots of em all sizes... with your 10% off thats $25 each :)
the worst thing you can do is buy stuff as you need it... you need to have stuff you can use when you need it...
with zero labor... i think you could do it really nice for under 25K... i know i could... even if i payed a guy to frame and side it... just to speed it up
P:)
I like concrete slabs too, I did mine that way.
"drywall not alot you can do here... but all the scrap gets glued into stub bays for added mass"sorry.....what do you mean? I have to plead ignorance. What is a stub bay?
I'm loving this thread.
Getting ready to design build my own place this summer/fall. I'm a big believer in spending extra time on design and functionality so that sq footage can be reduced. Saves money during construction and beyond. As remodel contractors, we certainly have an advantage when it comes to materials.A few leftover pieces of 1x4 trim from each job turns into a new house full of paint-grade casing in a couple of yrs.At demo, the electricians leave alot of old blue boxes that just need new nails.Door salvage..My house wont have 2 interior doors that match, but you can be sure they will all be solid wood and full of character.how about pouring your own concrete countertops. fabricate a 1" steel form over plywood. pour them in place and leave the steel form/ edge banding as is. Looks great and is cheaper than formica!Not sure about salvaging/ craigslisting windows. The requirements change so often around here and the inspector likes to see those stickers.
i can't type... " Stud bay" when one side of the wall is hung with drywall... i go to the other side before it is hung and glue all the larger scraps that can't be used .. i glue them (liquid nails) to the backside of the hung drywall... really cuts down on the sound between rooms... and ur not filling a landfill or pay'n to haul the scrap away...
i also fly the ends of drywall try'n to not land on a stud... use'n 2" strips of plywood or osb behind each joint...
p
I remember this coming up in another discussion some time ago. People got really hot around the collar about it being sinfull or sneaky.
what they got hot abot was lazy people place'n trash in the bays or under stairwells..
i cut and glue mine... i use mostly 5/8 drywall so i'm make'n the drywall 1 1/4" thick in places ... cuts down a ton on sound transmission.... i mark it... "fine home building"
p
Sometimes decisions have unexpected consequences. Those few sheets of drywall sent to your storage might just have been enough to totally dominate the Packrat thread.
i don't save drywall.... cept to keep a few sheets maybe a half sheet around for repairs...
see I kNOW what/where to save :) i'd rather buy a new $500 faucet off ebay for $30... than ever try to save a used faucet unless it's just a really cool faucet... not that I'd ever pay $500 for a faucet but i would pay $100... so i'd rather have the $500 one for $30-50... I've still saved over half of what I would have spent...
I'm always under budget and end up with something nicer than i had planned... in the end thats all that matters... when i go to the bank and i'm 30-40% LTV and have almost zero person debt... it lets me do what i enjoy doing and I sleep well at night... I keep enough life insurance so that my projects and junk will never become a problem for someone else to clean/finish up...
I'm sated
P:)
http://www.84lumber.com/bps/pdf/affordable/Elkview%20II%20value.pdf
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
well, there you have it! looks like the ulitimate "inexpensive house" package!View Image
that assumes that the builder is a pro who values his time..
I've seen too many modest homes built for small money that were both bigger and more interesting (less of a double wide look)
My best friends father built a nice lake home for virtually nothing using scrap lumber and local found objects.. He even straightened nails to use over (actaully he had his kids do it) It was large enough for the whole family (10 plus grandmother) he hauled everything from Chicago to the lake in Wisconsin on or behinfd the fasmily staion wagon every weekend..
A fellow that I know who lives on a farm built all the buildings with various fallen logs and an old sawmill made with a Ford Model A engine. The foundation was stonerubble done with slip forms.
Once you eliminate labor costs and use creativety great buildings can be done for extremely modest costs..
yeah, I agree, the o.p. has family coming, so there's a bit of a time crunch. Those creative built from salvage buidlings usually make more sense when there's no timeline or drop dead date.View Image
Apparently He has room currantly at least enough room that they think they can move in..
That means they've more than doubled their labor pool.. Plus added motivation to proceed with all haste..
I'll admit the best deals are found when time isn't a crunch however It appears he has a good line on a lot of things..
Under those circumstances I think it's doable within the $25,000 budget he's set uo..
It's a setup for terrible relations. Relying on the labor of the family will lead to problems with "What is built? Who does what and how? How much is it worth? Who is reponsible for material choices? What level of finish is required/acceptable? Who pays for what? Who is the boss?"
The OP should design/build what he chooses and pay the bill. The extended family should use the house and pay rent. The separation of powers is important when considering the potential pitfalls and future family well-being.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
OK if you need to do that you can.. work out the details before hand, who gets what and for how long etc. Who does what and how well and for how long..
I wouldn't need to do that with my family but I understand some families can only exist that way..
http://www.84lumber.com/bps/pdf/affordable/St.%20Albans%20II%20value.pdfA La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
That is close to my latest preliminary drawings. I'm ending up a little bit longer so the bedrooms can be a little longer, and provide enough space to have an interior stairway to a basement. I have the kitchen configuration a little different, to place the sink below a window, (I know it will add slightly to the cost). Plus, that puts the stove/oven on an interior wall so the heat from it has less loss to the exterior. There is a heating season here, but not much of a cooling one. But yes, I'm moving to a very basic ranch style.
College rental developers use this plan in our area... cheap, fast, relatively efficient. When it gets destroyed by the rentors, it is easy/cheap to fix... or bulldoze out of the way.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.