every once in a while my customers want to use Ikea….
my impression is they were just not that good.. but i may ( ????? ) be predjudiced
how much trouble are they to install ?
can you really build them in seamlessly ?
are they durable ?
do the hinges pull out, shelves sag ?
anyone install them … anyone live with them ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Replies
I did a kitchen of them 10 yrs ago.
Haven't seen it since, but...
Took two of us two days to unpack and assemble the carcasses
Plastic legs hold up the base cabinets, we broke a couple
I preferred decent factory assembled cabinets for their
stiffness and ease (?) of installation.
Mclaren
Mike,
I did two houses with them in the last two years.
Need to preface what I am about to say by telling you I owned and operated a custom cabinet shop for a few years back in the 70's.
They aren't custom cabinets, but they aren't bad for the money either.
The ones I did came with everything dissembled and flat packed. Box backs are flimsy, and use tacks to hold them in place
Once you figure one door or drawer or box out then they assemble fast. Instructions are pretty good.
Hardware is surpisingly good for the type of cabinet. Except the feet... I hate those darn plastic adjustable legs! Second house I built bases for the units.
Hanging hardware for uppers is quite adequate and easy to adjust and use.
If you have a full house worth of them to install figure about one 8' x 10' x 3' trailer filled with flattened cardboard to dispose of or recycle, a major drawback to me.
Hard to do any custom stuff with what Ikea offers, but You can get extra end panels etc and then make your own .
I will see if I can post some pics of one of the jobs.
Edited 4/4/2007 10:42 pm by dovetail97128
Forget the cabinets, I love that view out that kitchen window.
Beautiful isn't it. Hill top vineyard, for Oregon Pinot Noir Wines.
That's a pretty install. Nice to see the dark color, too (most of the line being very light). That has a nice traditional look, too.
To my thinking, you have to use their product as what it is, individual finshed units. That lends it self to more "modern" or contemporary "looks."
It's not "traditional" casework, and as long as you don't expect it to be, to my thinking, a person will be happy with it.
But, yeow, jsut how much cardboard does it take to flat-pack casework, sheesh . . .Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Mac, You hit it. It isn't "traditional casework". The boxes are particle board (and made with a coarse filler to boot). Impossible to cut the stock and leave any finished edges because it isn't wood. Corner fillers etc. are made up on site out of either the base stock or end panel stock. In the one pic you can see where above the range opening in the cabinets there is a vent pipe cover I made up out of an end panel.
All the details have to be thought out in advance or you run the risk of needing something that Ikea will have to order.I found it very helpful to stay with one salesperson throughout the project, even when Ikea transferred him to another part of their store. I still called him and enlisted his help to solve any problems. My surprise, (coming because I expected junk hardware) was that the door, drawer, pull outs, lazy susan etc. were really pretty good.
I can see myself buying all of that and then building my own cases in the future. Drawers are metal , nice adjustments on them.Some one posted that they couldn't get bath vanities from Ikea that matched the kitchen stuff, I was able to do so with no problem .That kitchen (2004) , an 8' vanity , a 6' vanity , plus another 21' run of base cabinets for storage, a 2' x 6' Laundry room cabinet and oak counters for the kitchen and storage units cost just at $8500 landed on my job. Included knobs, hardware, base , plastic legs, etc. Ikea has a downloadable kitchen and bath planning/ordering system , so you can research it all from the home computer. Again, it isn't high quality by any means, but it is servicable and decent looking for the price.
Again, it isn't high quality by any means, but it is servicable and decent looking for the price.
But, it can "build" to a considerable quality, as Paulwaterloo shows us.
To my thinking, if you treat the ikea like components, like you would in a commercial kitchen, can help. So that they are more like individual furniture items. This, rather than the "massed" look of traditional (american) casework.
Of course, that lit cabinet PW did ruins my generalization near completely <g>.
Now, if Ikea would just offer a wall-hung "base," that would make a very cool, near-commercial kitchen look so easy. Sure, it can be done with the stock product (a 12" deep semi/pseudo toe kick faced in black helps); but a base product designed to be wall hung would be easier on the installers, is all.
(Can you tell I'm fussing with a client about a kitchen?)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
we were thinking of getting some, but may just buy the doors and build the case.
they've opened a store in Stoughton, exit 19B off of rt24 if you want to look at them.
remember that AndyC doesn't like them.
the one we looked at were made of melimine.
the store has a cafeteria and downstairs they have hot dogs for 50 cents.
they have several options on feet but I don't know how they compare with others, didn't look that close (built a couple of cabinets where I used the feet)
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
bobl.. we went to the Ikea in Stoughten the week they opened.. pretty interesting placeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks to all... i guess we're all on the same page with this oneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,it is interesting.we've bought some stuff there. It's like everything, you have to look at what you're buying and decide whether it's worth it.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
thats what I would do bob. buy the doors/drawer fronts build the boxes
View Image "We fight not to enslave ,but to set free"
Thomas Paine
I've seen a bit of their cabinets, no full kitchen jobs though. What I've seen is modular pieces and none of it was particularly rugged, mostly MDF, melamine, plastic braces, a scrap of melamine coated particle board every here and there, not sure if I've ever seen any plywood. They may have some higher end goods but I haven't seen any. Some of it seems to have a much stronger formaldehyde odor than MDF sheet goods. FWIW, it all seems to be made in China (in spite of all the Scandanavian sounding who-ha highlighted in the catalogs). My impression is it is mostly for "starter" kitchens, DIY types, and those who wouldn't recognize quality if it smacked them in the face. The range of products and styles is actually quite impressive. There's obviously a market for it and I'll bet we start getting more requests.
FWIW.. Last job I counted parts and pieces from 8 different countries. Spain , Sweden , Austria, Germany , Poland, China, are the ones I can remember. And you are right, they are not of any real quality , but they are not bad for what they sell for.
The owners I installed them for saved 1/3 of the estimated costs from cabinet shops that looked at the jobs.
"and those who wouldn't recognize quality if it smacked them in the face. "Good description! My thoughts exactly
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Put them in my house 3 years ago. Holding up good. Also used their pine cabs for bath vanities. They fit in my budget.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I guess if you spent some time at the IKEA store, you probably figured out that some of the stuff was absolute junk and some was actually pretty impressive for the price.
At least, that is my thought on the furniture that they carry. The cabinets seemed to be the same way.
Mike,
We've just done two kitchens in our own house with Ikea. It was by far the best option for us because:
1) I could pick up each kitchen in one load with my P/U.
2) The cost of a custom kitchen when you live in the boonies is outrageous. I saved about $5K per kitchen.
3) The quality of the cabs is acceptable (depending on who you ask).
4) As stated, assembly is easy, but to get a high quality installation you have to be conscientious with plumb, align, and level (as if I need to tell you that, Sir). I’ve seen a few Ikea kitchens that were butt ugly simply because of poor assembly by HO.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
great !.. keep 'em comming..
there must be some more Ikea reports out there !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
A cow-orker of mine did Ikea cabs on her kitchen remodel last summer - I believe they were cherry, and the fronts (at least the drawer fronts) were solid wood. They look quite good. I didn't get a chance to kick the carcases, though. The drawer bodies are interesting; the drawer body sides are metal and incorporate the slide. I'll see if she's got some pics.did<!---->Cure Diabetes - Whitefish, Montana, 2007!<!---->
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A cow-orker of mine did Ikea cabs whats a cow -orker, is that somebody who likes farm animals
Say it out loud...did<!---->Cure Diabetes - Whitefish, Montana, 2007!<!---->
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Hiya Mike...
The house interior we're about to start is planning on using Ikea kitchen cabs. Although I've never used their kitchen stuff, I've assembled many others for friends (bookcases, desks, etc) and based on that I tried to delicately dissuade them. They tell me (FWIW) that both they (in their other summer house) and close friends have had them for ten plus years, love em and no problems. I'm surprised, especially since these are very fussy people but, go figger. Obviously this is all hearsay so take it with a grain of salt.PaulB
Mike, what is it they like about Ikea? Is it that the store displays convey a Euro-style clean modern look without some of the pomp and clutter seen in more traditional kitchen showrooms?
Your customers could have much more selection if you had full line catalogs and finish samples from Walzcraft and Keystone Wood Specialties. Both these outfits make fronts and trim for kitchens, baths, and any other type of cabinet installations. Styles, species, and finishes galore.
RTA carcases as good or better than those from Ikea can be direct shipped to your sites from CabParts or ComponentsPlus, and that can include all drawerslides.
And, all at a price quite competitive with Ikea.
Of course, for totally custom in RTA, there is my favorite, Scherr's.
I have installed two IKEA kitchens in a two flat building that I gutted last year and reconfigured.
Cost for the two kitchens below with cabinets, drawers, faces (everything from IKEA): $5500 or so. Cost for the two solid surface LG counter tops and sinks: $4800.
They look great, I customized them with a few boxes, the way the upper cabinets mount is SUPER EASY. I am not a contractor, nor have I ever done a kitchen install before these two. I did it myself. Glue the pegs in, use a brad nailer to attach the back panels. The hardware BLOWS most low to medium cabinets away.
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Here is the second floor unit, it looks much better in person:
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I also just put some in my own house bathroom that I am just finishing up. I cut the vanity cabinet down 2" to make it 22" in depth versus the stock 24". You can go one extra inch. You have to cut it in the middle back and biscuit join it back together. I put these on 2x4's on the ground, the vanity support is in the middle so it appears to be floating. The wall panels are a fridge trim panel you can buy. The fronts of these are solid oak, the most expensive style. About $1100 for everything in the bath. A local cabinet place (Polish factory in Chicago quoted me $2800 for the same thing). I really like them.
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Edited 4/5/2007 11:29 am by PaulWaterloo
Edited 4/5/2007 11:30 am by PaulWaterloo
Edited 4/5/2007 11:31 am by PaulWaterloo
Nice job! I like that style of fronts. Tried to talk my clients int it but they balked.
Mike,
I put them in my own house and have now lived with them for more than a year.
I agree completely with the developing consensus above: they are not high end, but I didn't pay for high end. I paid a bit over C$6000 to have a kitchen delivered here from Montreal. Local prices for similar quality were around C$9000.
Having said that, I think the hardware is excellent, drawer slides and hinges are as good as anybody's and better than most.
The cabinets are very vulnerable to water. The sink cabinet will benefit from a couple of coats of polyurethane inside. The veneer edges are vulnerable to heat. An improperly closed oven door melted one veneer edge off. On the other hand, that was easy to fix.
The doors are very good. I have what seems to be a mix of birch and maple flat panel doors. You can spend a lot more money and get doors that aren't nearly as good.
One feature I really liked was that the upper cabinets are hung from a rail bolted to the wall. My house is ICF. Hanging cabinets from the webs didn't seem like a great idea, but hanging a rail on the wall allowed me to fasten into solid concrete with any fastener I wanted and then clean up the mess before bringing in the cabinets. I used lags and lead shields, a lot of them.
The depth is greater than standard, so laminate rolled edge counter top is not a good fit. Anything dripping off the front edge does not quite clear the doors.
A lot of people like my kitchen, including me and as a result, I rebuilt another kitchen last fall using IKEA cabinets. That was harder, as the space was not designed to fit them and it was an old house. It worked, though.
I attached a picture and then saw that it was a very large file. I can't see how to delete it through the editing window so I'll put in a smaller version too. OK, figure it out. I had to post it first.
Ron
Edited 4/5/2007 12:44 pm by ronbudgell
You said, re Ikea cabs:
Again, it isn't high quality by any means, but it is servicable and decent looking for the price.
But then I looked through Paul Waterloo's photo sequence of his job done with Ikea, and recalled the words Miles Davis made famous when asked about his dope smoking:
"Wuz wrong wi' dat?"
It all goes back to good design and good installation, with accessories and fittings and trim all detailed out well. I prefer frameless cabs to faceframed ones, most any day.
Here's a few pictures of how I trimmed it out....on the left of the dishwasher there was a large opening, about 5-6"
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I put some 1x or 2x stock back there, made a small frame and attached a cut down side trim panel to it to fill the space in.
The other thing I did that IKEA doesn't really tell you is that I put end side panels on each sides of the appliances, on the dishwasher and stove. You don't see the side of the cabinet at all.
You just need to cut them in half and use half on each side, you only see the front edge, plus it allows for more clearance in the back of the appliance bay side to side if the wall isn't square.
Here is one more trim panel I made for the 1st floor corner cabinet, you need at least 3" so the drawer can open....you can see the trim panels on each side of the dishwasher.
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Here's how you put the top cabinets up, you install a rail cut to just shorter than the cabinet width, slide two stud assemblies in for each wall cabinet, and you just hang them up there and put to nuts on the studs, very easy to do. The holes are oversized so you can adjust them up and down very easily.
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Gene,
Absolutely nothing is wrong with what you see. I didn't find anything wrong in the pics I posted either. Now having owned a shop and built cabinets that were all oak or birch cabinet grade plywood carcasses, 3/8" backs , scribe strips for walls, either solid stock doors or 1/4" inset panels doors, dowelled face frames out of solid stock, 1/2 lap drawer construction and the best hardware we could buy, as well as building them to the 1/16 of an inch for length with units up to 12' long .... well these aren't quite up to that quality. There is a vast differance between "standard" size units that are on the market today and what used to be made in custom shop where you could make a cabinet any width , length and height you wanted. All that having been said, i still think that for the money they are worth it. they do look nice if care is done in the install, just order extra end panels to conceal the carcass ends as was demonstrated in some of the photos and the finished products looks great. I used Ikea's oak counters (strip of oak finger jointed together , 8' by 25" ) Came out beautiful, and cheaper than any other wood counters I have ever seen.
Edited 4/5/2007 4:03 pm by dovetail97128
Good work! Just want to add that I read somewhere, think it was in a woodworking mag, that a small shop in Ohio has recently picked up an account to do a lot of Ikea's cabinets, so its not all made in China my friends.
Ikea has fully-owned plants or partner/suppliers in Scaninavia, Eastern Europe, Asia, Canada and the US and who knows where else.....often they set up to manufacture an item in one country and those products are all exported.....what they sell in that country is imported, for tax advantages. They play extreme hardball with their own plants and partners: every division has to bid against the others for contracts, and the prices IKEA is looking for are sometimes unrealistically low (that's according to a friend who is the former production manager at a now closed partner plant.....I've heard the same from several others.....IKEA will tell them what the price they have to beat is, but they may not be entirely truthful). They are known as a bottom feeder among suppliers, and very difficult to work with (that shop in Ohio may be regretting it soon) but they're very successful and very profitable....Mr. Ikea (can't remember his name) is now the richest person in the world, ahead of Gates.
From what I've seen of the cabinets, they are very good quality at their price point....I wouldn't hesitate to put them into a situation where cost was a big factor, but I would also bear in mind that because of the way they give out contracts, the cabinet you looked at six months ago may now be made by someone else. The modular basis, plastic leg levellers, melamine rather than plywood for example, things mentioned by other posters..... those can all be pluses in my opinion, but European manufacturers (no matter where the cabinets are actually produced), generally seem to use a lower basis weight melamine than I like....I like to see 120g or 140g, and a lot of the stuff I have seen from Europe is probably 80g.
Anyway, they are a very reasonable cabinet, and from what I've seen (installed two kitchens, I guess, and pent some time in showrooms), they are significantly better than some of the big North American factory companies. There is stuff sold at Home Depot I would never put in my house.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
"kea has fully-owned plants or partner/suppliers in Scaninavia, Eastern Europe, Asia, Canada and the US and who knows where else.....often they set up to manufacture an item in one country and those products are all exported.....what they sell in that country is imported, for tax advantages. They play extreme hardball with their own plants and partners: every division has to bid against the others for contracts, and the prices IKEA is looking for are sometimes unrealistically low (that's according to a friend who is the former production manager at a now closed partner plant.....I've heard the same from several others.....IKEA will tell them what the price they have to beat is, but they may not be entirely truthful). They are known as a bottom feeder among suppliers, and very difficult to work with (that shop in Ohio may be regretting it soon) but they're very successful and very profitable....Mr. Ikea (can't remember his name) is now the richest person in the world, ahead of Gates."So their business practices are much like that of Walmart.Interesting.I wonder how many people flock to Ikea that say that they would not shop at Walmart..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, Actually that business model fits 50% , no make that 85% of the GC's I know .
We did one kitchen of IKEA cabinets. Stylisticly (sp) I like them. They have some neat designs. As mentioned several time, quality wise you get what you pay for-maybe a little more. After we got the first box built (much cussing and profanity), the rest went very well.
Our greatest challenge was getting the cabinets. The Houston store did not have them in stock, but they were "available from California". Client paid for expedited shipping to Austin and were told two weeks. The job was a quick gut and rebuild so I wanted to make sure everything was there before we started. Four weeks later, customer service said "they were on the way". Six weeks later, "we don't have them in stock-they are stuck on boat in port". Eight weeks later "They will be arriving in two days". Nine weeks later Houston Store called to let us know the cabinets are in and we can pick them up any time. Client reminded Houston store we had paid for expedited shipping to her home in Austin. Ikea "Oh yeah". Our delivery truck will in Austin in two weeks. Client informed them they will be in Austin tomorrow-They were. So fortunately we did not gut the kitchen until the huge pile of boxes arrived-They weigh alot. Only a few of cabinets were the wrong ones, and we were missing a few doors-Other than that-seamless transaction.
Bruce
great work buoys & gulls, more !
........ this is turning into quite the Ikea Primer !.... i'm learning a lotMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The Ikea base box is just that . . . a carcase box. The means of getting it up off the floor, say 4 inches or so, is up to you.
As the Euros would all do, they suggest you use legs instead of what has come to be the USA standard, the toekick box. It is not uncommon all over Europe to see kitchen basecabs up on legs, just like furniture, with the floor visible underneath.
It is also not uncommon for Euro flat-dwellers to consider their kitchen cabs as their own furniture, to be moved with the desks and chairs when it is time to move up to a larger flat. Thus the wall clips for the uppers.
We've come to greatly prefer the legs under basecabs instead of platforms (or whatever else) when doing installations, because it is so much easier and faster than building something. We use the Hafele adjustable type (there are others) that permit easy clipping on of toeboards. When installing, we set the bases, gang 'em together with sexbolts, and turn the screws up or down until the tops come to meet the bright yellow laser plane.
With just a little work, you can do a quick price check on Ikea versus some alternatives.
With Ikea, price the total of a 30w x 33h 2-door wallcab, added to a 30w base, one drawer over two doors with an adjustable shelf in the cab space under. Pick a door and finish scheme from Ikea that is also available from Keystone and Walzcraft.
Call K. and W. and get fronts pricing from them, then go to the downloadable CabParts pricebook and price up the boxes. CabParts discounts orders based on volume of cabs in an order, so choose a discount you think you'll see for the typical kitchen order of, say, 15 or more boxes. Add in the pricing for the hinges, slides, dowels and screws, and other misc. stuff you'll need.
Be sure you get delivery costs in everything, then compare the Ikea to the cafeteria-style RTA.
Edited 4/5/2007 6:59 pm ET by Gene_Davis
are there any cabinet out there that not made of particale board
Yeah, mine. 100% 3/4" 13-ply Baltic Birch (ok, 1/4" 5-ply for the backs, and 1/2" 9-ply for the drawer bottoms, but everything else...). That's the cool part of makin' your own. My cost will probably be in line with Ikea's - not including labor, though...did<!---->Cure Diabetes - Whitefish, Montana, 2007!<!---->
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>>are there any cabinet out there that not made of particale boardThis is the crux of the whole question. IKEA cabinets are designed
and built to compete with the other Euro cabinet brands such as
Poggenpohl, Scavolini, Builthaup et al. Cabinets which cost 5X to
10X as much, and which all use the same low-formaldehyde Euro
particleboard as IKEA I don't really see how these cabinets could be
intrinsically different if they are all using the same crap material.To answer the question, though, Neff makes cabinets of zero formaldehyde marine plywood. Marine plywood is so tough you can leave it exposed to the elements for years, and it is very expensive.
I don't really see how these cabinets could beintrinsically different if they are all using the same crap material.
like I said ... I did one Ikea kitchen many years ago ....
I have also installed a handful of PoggenPohl kitchens and also a few Neff.
Poggenpohl and Neff are worlds apart from Ikea.
not even to be considered the same animal.
no comparison.
at all.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Snipped from a lengthy thread over at the iVillage Garden Web site. The topic was Poggenpohl.
"The finish on the Poggenpohl doors was impressive for Euro mod styling, but when I examined the boxes and the fit in the hinge areas and other small details, there were a lot of discrepencies. I even saw several areas on the floor models where the hinges had pulled out of the side walls and the particleboard had crumbled."
Another snip from another forum re Poggenpohl:
"Poggenpohl uses a flake core Melamine.
we just installed a Poggenpohl kitchen.
The materials they use are cheap, but the accuracy of their machining is incredible."
Sounds like it's all in the details. What's Ikea got for bad details? I'm just trying to learn, here.
the gist of what i'm getting is :
Ikea uses multi-mfr's based on price-point purchasing.. this results in a product that looks pleasing to the eye of the Ikea customer... but the materials ( mdf) and hardware are inferior.. mfr'g contracts are based on lowest cost provider
the assembly time adds to the cost if pros are hired to install
the distribution system requires someone to place the order, drive to ikea ( two hours each way for me ), load it and deliver it, all assuming the order is correctly placed ( based on the "design" ).... there is no backorder at Ikea...and the customer is actually buying the correct items
sounds like the "case backs" are a little flimsy and require some reinforcement
they have nice drawers and nice fronts
you need to develop a system for installing them which differs a little ( or a lot ) from what the average kitchen installer is used to
all in all , sounds like a nice product for a homeowner counting their design, assembly, installation time as no-cost..with low out-of -pocket expense
a little more problematical for a pro where time is money and and ease of maintenance and longevity are part of our signature
my bottom line... if that's what they want, that's what they get... after we've reviewed the pros and cons and they know what else is available out thereMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The finish on the Poggenpohl doors was impressive for Euro mod styling, but when I examined the boxes and the fit in the hinge areas and other small details, there were a lot of discrepencies.
The materials they use are cheap, but the accuracy of their machining is incredible."
Bull Sh!t.
while I personally think they are by far the most over priced cabinets I've ever installed ... they are manufacturered to the tightest tolerances I've ever worked with too.
case in point ... one run of base cabs had an aluminum "frame", for lack of a better term ... that went up one side ... across the top ... and down the other.
the cabs were to be installed as per the norm ... and they had factory installed blocking ... on the tops of the cabs ... set back from the front edge ... to hold up the factory supplied one piece stainless steel counter top.
The aluminum trim was to go between the cab's and theside pilasters/columns ... and cab's and the counter top.
it was to make for a reveal/shadow line of about an inch and a half.
so ... it had to fit EXACT.
and ... it came precut. So we installed ... then put the aluminum frame together.
did a quick measurement ... and damn ... no way it was gonna fit.
we're screwed ...
as a last resort ... we decided to "hold it up there" ... to see exactly how far we were off.
held it ... set it ... and U could hear the suction of the air displaced it was such a freaking tight fit!
learned that day at that moment ... never question a german cabinet maker ...
and there have been a coupla times since that I relearned that same lesson.
they can be a major pain in the a$$ to install.
there's also very little wiggle room with their installs ...
a proper design with their proper coordinating trim can make or break a kitchen install ...
but to say they are sloppy.
No way.
sounds to me like people at garden web went and priced a kitchen and decided to complain about something other than the fact they couldn't afford what they wanted.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
are there any cabinet out there that not made of particale board
Yes, but those cabs are either MDF, or flake board <g>.
The joint I used to work for still offers either a solid or veneer core "plywood" box, or a marine-grade plywood box, both at considerable upgrade in price over the stock melamine-covered MDF box. (A hair cheaper price for raw--sanding sealer only) MDF boxes.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
what would a good quality box be made out of?
1/2" welded stainless steel plate.....
:-)
For those who have never installed or used an IKEA kitchen, they are nice. A lot nicer than anything in the box stores. Got to love the frameless cabinets.
Okay, I'll shut up now.
what would a good quality box be made out of?
Depends on the customer.
Me, I happen to like melamine on MDF, as that makes a nice carcass (as long as the factory does their homework on the fasteners & such).
And I really like solid maple for drawer sides when you can't get aromatic cedar. Not that the unidirectional baltic birch is bad, I just want to see it machined, rather than bought stock and stuffed in the drawer press and count on the pins in the corners (oops, quality manufacturing experience bias showing through . . . <G>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Where do you buy cabs with carcases of melamine-coated MDF?
The melamine we see in common usage is heat-pressed to both sides of 45-pcf particleboard.
carcases of melamine-coated MDF?
Well, it's been five years, but the cabinet joint I used to be with ordered faced-one side sheets of 1/2" & 5/8" thick MDF by the pallet load (and should have been taking rail shipments, what with the spur right behind the factory).
They had just added a line-style laminator, as I was leaving; they were stocking 6-7 "colors" of melamine/vinyl, so they could "roll there own" to spec (if management had their heads pulled out far enought to figure that out).
Which does not mean that they are not B2B wholesalers selling the melamine on vinyl paper, vaguely glued to 3/8" flake board out there, for carcass parts . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Gene, I like the idea of the adjustable legs, but the ones I used from Ikea would readily break if I tried to lift the units using them. Maybe it is just quality of materials .
>>With just a little work, you can do a quick price check on Ikea versus some alternatives.You can also use them as a sort of Big Mac Index.Although IKEA's North America cabinets are not metric, and you cannot use them in an apples-to-apples comparison, their pricing on their metric cabinets in other countries is very revealing.For instance, factoring in the exchange rates, cabinets at the Tokyo stores are twice the price of those in the Shanghai store (both are made in the same German factory).As for Cabparts and the other US makers of comparable price to IKEA, are such cabinets made from low-formaldehyde particleboard like IKEA. Or, is it even possible to get any information or certification of the formaldehyde content?
more ! .... more!...
gotta mid-term comming up ... and i haven't been paying attention..
so youse gotta educate me about Ikea
all good stuff , but keep it commingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
As a former ethnographer, I can give you a not-statistically-valid opinion as to what possibly makes IKEA so appealing to the average consumer. And link you to some articles about it as well.Is that the kind of stuff you are looking for too? What drives people to consider buying IKEA kitchen cabinets?
HouseBlogs.net...DIY Geeks Rejoice
Well bring it on!
No need to stand around shuffling yer feet on the sidelines.
Parolee # 53804
Sorry for the delay. Just spent the day glazing windows, came back up for air.My un-scientifically proven two cents for why IKEA cabinets (and vinyl windows, for that matter) have become more popular with homeowners based upon the fact that I used to get paid a stupid amount of money to notice these trends when I did this for a living:
Those are just some of the guesses that I would explore if I was hired to do an ethnographic study of this topic. I'm sure you all, being pretty close to your customers/friends/neighbors have other guesses, yes?HouseBlogs.net...DIY Geeks Rejoice
Edited 4/6/2007 9:03 pm ET by jmo2
Edited 4/7/2007 9:59 am ET by jmo2
yeppers, you'd said a mouthful there. View Image
Parolee # 53804
My new kitchen cabs are 100% pb free.5 and 7 ply veneer plywood, birch for the boxes, hickory for show.Solid poplar drawer boxes and hanging rails. The local cabinet shop in town, they beat the big box, and the local yard, which had Diamond, and a couple other common names.The price was better, got Bird pecked Pecan face and door frames, and full custom sizes were available.For all that bragging, the drawers are stapled and hot glued, the bottoms are mostly 1/4" and they still have the cheap plastic corner braces.So while they are all solid wood (ply), they still ain't what they used to be.A medium to large guy named Alan, not an ambiguous female....
NOT that there is anything wrong with that.
Go here, Mike, to see what various cabinetmaking pros have said about melamine-coated particleboard as a material for cab carcases.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Melamine_Carcasses.html
After you have read through the commentary, give us your takeaway here.
i don't have any problem with melamine carcasses...
our kitchen ( 1985 ) is all white melamine... still going strongMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have had great luck with getting the cabinets. There are two stores in Chicagoland now.....and I could set you up with them, I know them as well or better than the kitchen people! Okay, not that good, but as far as what to order and assemble....
They normally have the frames in stock at the store, you can get them the same day....and hardware.
They usually have three or so cabinet fronts in stock at the store, you can get them the same day if they have everything.
My dark brown cabinets and bathroom cabinets are not stock, so they are special ordered and come into a local warehouse near O'Hare in about 1-2 weeks from Pittsburgh or somewhere.....everything that you ordered (special order cabinet fronts and anything that wasn't in stock) comes shrink wrapped on a palet. You just pick it up at the warehouse.
I used them about 12 years ago - found them to be easy to assemble & decent looking for a decent price - I've moved from there, but the person who lived there after me is a friend, & he thought they were fine -
Fine as in ok, of course, not as in fine homebuilding...
Mike,
In addition to what has been said,,,,,,,,,,,, my DW wife's family is big on Ikea, so I've installed a fair amount of it. I find a bit of glue and a pin or two goes a long way toward beefing things up.
My BIL says Ikea is Swedish for Out of Stock. Be sure all the pieces are there when you start. The stores get INCREDIBLY CROWDED. I avoid actually going to the store at all costs.
Harry
"The stores get INCREDIBLY CROWDED."Mikethey had some kitchen cabinets we wanted to put in the bathroom for a linen closet. Place is such you have to know the routine. can't just take the number down and go pick it up. You have to go through one of their kitchen people to have the order put together. So depending how crowded it is... probably best time to go is early morning. we endd up leaving because of the crowd and wait time.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Sorry for changing the direction of the thread, but I wanted to get some input from people with experience with IKEA. We don't have an IKEA here, ( Buffalo area), but I was at the one in Pittsburgh last week , and was looking at their "Tundra" snap-lock laminate flooring, at $1.29 sq./ft. Seems like a good price, but I haven't really compared it to what is available in my local area. I have a kitchen floor and hallway that needed to be replaced in 1981, just getting to it... and the Tundra brand was the only one they had that was OK'd for use in kitchens. Anyone out there have any experience with this floor? Is there a way to enhance the water resistance of the joints? I was thinking of treating the joints with Thompsons Water Seal or a similar type of penetrating sealant prior to installation. My only other experience with laminate flooring was with Pergo years ago when you had to glue and clamp the pieces together...PITA!!! Any input would be greatly appreciated! I'll be back in Pittsburgh in a couple of weeks, and was planning to purchase the floor then, unless you guys talk me out of it !! Thanks in advance, Roofguy.
I've been tempted by the Tundra too. I talked to my local floor guy and he insisted that he would never install any snap down in a kitchen or bath. Hopefully someone here with more experience will weigh in on the merits of glue/snap. , and your idea of water sealing ends.
On another note: I ate lunch at Ikea last month. Salmon, new potatoes and salad for $ 4.99 Cdn. Beat that.
Ya but the Salmon was probably farm salmon fron Norway , the taters shipped in from Ireland, and salad from the San Joquin valley. Can't be good for you or the local economy at that price ;-)
Well that's Ikea in an nutshell isn't it?
You can feel virtuous about not eating at McDonalds (or shopping at HD) as long as you don't look at things too deeply. Ikea is not really about saving the world or anything. It's just a slightly more stylish alternative to mainstream fare.
Mike,
I have installed a few sets of Ikea. I think they are a decent cab for the money. IMO, there is a lot of value in the door/drawer fronts, drawer glides and drawer boxes. The boxes are nothing special.
I would second the suggestion to build a platform for the bases and skip the feet and applied toe kick.
One disadvantage I have found is trying to fit their std. sized in a remod kitchen. (Though this is probably true w/ other kd's in the same price range.)
"can you really build them in seamlessly ?"
Check out FHB 159, p.90-93. Kitchen w/ Ikea cabs. They "built-in" some for two hutches and a fridge surround.
A couple of other details that I've learned:
1) Some people like their bathroom cabs to match the kitchen ones, and Ikea doesn't make matching bathroom cabs. A table saw and biscuit joiner come in handy with chopping the height and depth, and you need to cut down the top-front cover panels above the drawers. Not hard, but time consuming.
2) Use a brad stapler to fasten back panels and add glue to dowels.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
The impression I got from Ikea's site and their designs is that they offer a low-cost cabinet and furniture for apartment and condo dwellers who cannot or do not wish to go through an extensive remodel.
Like everything else, you get what you pay for. I do like the clean look of Ikea, but frankly, most Americans just don't understand the minimalist approach to much of anything, especially when considering remodeling work.
I love Ikea for what it is.We furnished my girlfriend's (now wifey's) walk-in closet and bathroom with Ikea units for less than $4000. Like what was said before, the doors are an incredible value. We used the sandblasted glass/aluminum frame doors for the closet units and people think we spent a fortune on Poliform closet units. The range of accessories Ikea offers is very nice.But like what was said before, you have to know how to work it at Ikea. We live in Kansas City and the nearest Ikea to us is in Chicago, so it's quite the haul for us. We had ordered their Kitchen and Bathroom catalog online and had a list of what we wanted. Stock at their store is definitely a problem, so we had alternates picked out, too. We've been twice and let me tell you, the first time we went, we both had a total meltdown. There's just too much too look at and consider.I do not like Ikea furniture, because it's immediately recognizeable as Ikea. But, their built-ins and case goods are great for the money. Funny thing is, I LIKE the adjustable plastic feet. Once everything is in place, leveled, attached to each other, the units feel solid and didn't really take any tools or make any mess.One note of warning: The packaging is flimsy, therefore you MUST be VERY CAREFUL with your items when shipping and assembling to avoid any damage.Here's a synopsis of the Ikea ideal: Inexpensive, good looking stuff that is not intended to last forever. Styles change, tastes change. For the price of one custom kitchen with cabinets drawers and doors that will be out of style is 10-20 years, you can remodel your kitchen with Ikea 3-4 times and keep it current.I have a rental house that will need a new kitchen sooner or later. I will definitely use Ikea cabinets for it. That way the tenants can tear up the doors/drawers and I can just order more. The system is 20+ years old and parts have always been compatible. Imagine being able to buy a new drawer front and some accessories for your kitchen 20 years from now...In conclusion: I would definitely use Ikea for kitchen, bath, and closet case goods again. Especially if price is a concern over durability.
I think you are seeing the results of an article from Consumer Reports on kitchen cabinets value for the money. Here are some of the results from that report:
1 Omega Expo Premium $1,055
2 Fieldstone 1/2-inch Expo Premium $1,020
3 Diamond Platinum Lowe's Premium 630
4 Ikea Ikea Basic 290
5 Thomasville Home Depot Midlevel 500
Further down the list were Kraftmaid, Shenandoah, Wellborn, MillsPride, American Woodmark, Merrilat, et al.
They evaluated the cabinets on the following:
1) Drawer box construction
2) Pullout Drawer construction
3) Drawer and pullout hardware
4) Shelves
5) Cabinet box
6) Mounting strip
7) Doors
That IKEA made it into the top 5 at that price point is pretty incredible. I think that is why folks are saying that "for what you pay for, it is pretty darn good." Are they as good as custom cabinets? No way. But, for the price, people think they are acceptable.
I'm not sure how I feel about IKEA these days, now that I realize that they have low prices in part because some loop hole in the Netherlands allowed their holding company to set up shop as a not-for-profit and these guys pay NO taxes. That's ridiculous.
HouseBlogs.net...DIY Geeks Rejoice
Edited 4/5/2007 2:13 pm ET by jmo2
1 Omega Expo Premium $1,055 2 Fieldstone 1/2-inch Expo Premium $1,020 3 Diamond Platinum Lowe's Premium 630 4 Ikea Ikea Basic 290 5 Thomasville Home Depot Midlevel 500
well ... then that proves it!
Diamond Brand Cab's are THE biggest piles of s#!t I have ever had the pleasure of repeatedly working with. Used to sub for a dealer ... I thot they were their low end junk ... till I started seeing some invoices.
They're worse than the Ikea's I did that many years back ... because they weren't supposed to be cheap!
literally had face frames pull apart when attaching a run of cab's together, and had more tham one FF "pop off" completely from the box. Also many FF openings way outta square ... one I had a pic of was 3/16th different measured across the top and bottom.
That one dealer mighta been getting returns or something ... but it happened too many times to be a bad run.
Consumer Reports sucks.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think it was in the Raleigh News and Observer that I saw Sarah Susanka interviewed about her house in Raleigh and she used Ikea cabinets in both the kitchen and bath IIRC. Unfortunately neither the print nor on-line versions had pictures of either.
I believe her comment was that, although they aren't high-end and aren't as durable as high end she could afford to replace them after a number of years if she wanted to change the style or they started to wear.
I'm sure she has her admirers and detractors, but I'm also sure she could afford whatever cabinets she wanted and Ikea was good enough for her.
I used to take my kids trick-or-treating at her house, but never was past the front door to have any opinion.
Perhaps a Fine Editor could drop a dime and see if her view is the same after living with them for a few years?
I've had an Ikea kitchen for about 3 years now and it is holding up great.
Next time I'll skip the plastic legs and build up a toe kick.
No sagging, no problems.
There's way to many posts for me to go through just to see if someone here gives you this advice so I'm just going to reiterate in case its been said.
If you do go with the IKEA, and I've never done anything with them, just an observation that I've picked up from reading about them on here and other places; use a narrow crown stapler to attach the backs. A little glue wouldnt hurt either! If the backs are prefinished with a slick finish then use roo-glue, makes for a more solid box. Apparently they come with some small nails or tacks for the back, not a good idea for a solid box.
Doug
Doug,
I read the advice about the sttaplers... my experience is that I couldn't turn the pressure pow enough to have the gun still operate and yet have it not drive the staples thru the backs. Hand nailing them with a tack hammer took little time and I was able to make sure the backs were tight that way.
I've got a few Ikea components and furniture. Its a mixed bag. I am most disappointed by the stainless steel trolleys and countertops that are thin and discolour quickly. That having been said, every time I go there I come out with a carload of stuff.
All this talk just about the kitchens. Wait until the Ikea houses arrive. They just introduced them into Britain. The local builders said they thought they might not be embraced by the British public because they were not traditional enough. The Ikea spokesman pointed out that 60% of households had Ikea furnishing inside, so he didn't think it would be a problem.
I installed a bunch of IKEA crap in a laundry room last fall. The hardware is entirely unimpressive. The HO selected some upper cabs with awning type doors and the spring hinges provided aren't strong enough to keep them open. They are also very loose and slop around, scraping the sides of the carcasse and binding. There's no way to tighten them - it's just sloppy hardware construction.
The drawer fronts with predrilled holes for connecting them to the drawer boxes gave me trouble, too. The holes were out of alignment just enough so that, no matter how drastically they were adjusted, they wouldn't line up nicely with the adjacent drawer. I plumbed and leveled the cabinet carcasses, screwing them together but the drawer faces couldn't be adjusted to line up with each other. I found this odd, since they must be drilled on an automated line. Perhaps the press was misaligned on the day my parts went through.
Also, I have a baby changing table at home from IKEA. It's solid pine and the wood quality is OK, but, again, the hardware is garbage. Drawer slides came apart and spilled the ball bearings all over the place. Of course they are a design unique to IKEA so I can't find higher quality replacements. I haven't decided yet if I'll shell out the money for new slides that'll last another two weeks or just install some hardwood runners.
did one years and years ago.
wonder if they've changed?
Pgh was one of their first markets in the states ... they've been here for years.
before the kitchen ... Cath bought some furniture.
after the second go-round with the furniture .. we had a new rule.
she bought it ... she built it.
The furniture is pure crap. Made to be built and placed ... move it twice and it falls apart. Even after putting a better back outta 1/4 ply glued and stapled.
That's what I ran into with the kitchen cabs. Got it together ... looked nice ...
but the boxes I had to work with were crap.
just waiting to fall apart.
All the money the customer "saved" ... I wasted building them so I could at least hang them straight and not have them fall off the wall in a year.
I've turned down every Ikea job ever since.
They may be different now ... don't know.
don't wanna find out.
If a gun was held to my head ... I'd charge hourly with no limit ...
and just work slow and steady ... and then charge for the materials and fasteners needed to keep them from falling off the wall once I left.
One thing I have noticed ... not the kitchens because I've not taken a second look back ... but their furniture ... the big attraction was "cheap" ...
and while the products are crap ... the prices ain't so low no more.
Not sure if they're raised across the board ... or if they move into an area "cheap" ... and raise the rates once their established?
either way ...
Can ya tell I'm not a fan?
I'll take the cheapest lumber yard/builders quality boxes vs Ikea any day.
Ikea will look better ... at first ...
but U ain't fooling me.
thinking what bugged me that first time ... kept thinking ... if I'm taking my time to assemble something ... at least let me assemble something outta more than cardboard.
just not for me ...
Jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I have not seen their cabinets.
But I have instaled a couple of their med chests and assembled a dinning room table for customers.
IMO, crap that takes a lot of labour to assemble.
That dining table is only two years old and the customer plans to replace it already - shakey, quakey and ugly
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
For what it's worth...
I bought an some IKEA laminate storage cabinets to use in my Family Room. The kids destroyed the cabinets in a year. Pulled the drawer fronts off, broke the drawer hinges, etc. Of course my kids have destroyed everthing I own, so this is no different.
We did buy a solid wood baby crib at IKEA several years ago. Kid #4 is in the crib now and it has held up well. We also have some solid wood toy boxes from IKEA that have held up reasonable well to the kid's abuse.
I haven't lived with Ikea cabs but I have installed a couple.
They're flat-packed and thus designed for home owners who don't value their time in the same way pros do. Even with numerous cordless tools and an assembly table (essential) count on hours.
I installed a set for my sister a few years ago. Cute as could be when new--Tenants used a rice cooker regularly which caused the shaker style glass doors (MDF) to delaminate and swell. The counter top performed similarly.
To my shame, I have some IKEA furniture in my house. A chest of drawers with oak veneer that is literally thinner than paper. Hours to put together even with all of the tools of a professional. Core of MDF and worse that offgassed for years. Never again.
delaminate and swell
LOL
From the people who adore Ikea (i pronounce it icky) pb, we can expect that in a few years delaminations and chips showing coarse filler will be called PATINA!!!
Worked across the street from a new icky store in '95, wo walked in at lunch one day to see what the hype was. As point of reference, make my own solid wood cabinets and furniture. What I saw in icky was literally sickening crap, never have been in another icky store since.
Our suck-up town fathers sure do love the sales tax revenue generated by that store though, sure do suck in plenty people to buy the short term junk.
HIJACK NOTICE! HIJACK NOTICE!
I thought I would step in here to see how many want to focus on the material Ikea (and many others) use for the sides, bottoms, shelves, and other parts of their frameless cabinets.
Melamine-coated 45pcf density industrial grade particleboard. That's what it is.
Mike Smith says he has had melamine cabs in his house without incident since sometime in the 80s.
A house we owned in 1978 had a kitchen full of melamine cabs, and the owners that live there today still use them every day.
I'm searching for other real life stories of either long term continued success with melamine cabs, or failures.
gene ... don't misunderstand... a lot of melamine stuff on the market is pure shiddddd... not just IKEA
then there are the mfr's who are out to make a quality product... they design within the parameters of what is appropriate fro the use...
anyways.. ours were made by a mfr. in East Greenwich... their mfr'g was great... their design and handholding was very limited
they really wanted large commercial orders and were not really set up for one-off kitchens
most of our cabinets today come thru my lumber yard with about 4 mfrs and about 20 lines.. and two in-house designers to do my design and hand-holding for me
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, re kitchen packages, you said:
"two in-house designers to do my design and hand-holding for me"
I know I sound like a broken record, but we've no resources like that, at all, in our area. There are those who purport to be kitchen designers, but what we've seen from them isn't worth anything. And hand holding? Whazzat?
I can watch those TOH shows on cable, where they bring in the pro to do the kitchens, the lighting, the flooring, the housejacking, the sophisticated hydronic heating packages, etc. To us, it all looks like something from an alternative universe.
BTW, how do you think biz is over with Randy Gardner? He bids work competitively for hard money, doesn't he? Big, architect-designed trophy houses, right?
Edited 4/7/2007 10:10 am ET by Gene_Davis
i don't know randy gardner...
my take on the Newport / Jamestown scene:
the big boys are building $3mil - $12 mil homes ( estates )
guys like Kirby-Perkins.. AV Nunes... Parker...... etc
they're doing combinations of CM & T&M
what they have is a system with lot's of back room support
Burgin ... Estes / Twombly.. they compete with international architects for that money.. but most of the big money jobs bring their own architects with them
then there is the next tier..
Davitt Const, Ray Const....
then there are a lot of wanna bees... Yankee Housewrights
then there are a legion of guys like me
and then there are thousands of others.. some good , some great.. but most will not stay in the businessMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>>lot of melamine stuff on the market is pure shiddddd...I've read a lot about melamine here, and on various threads on woodweb, etc. Melamine good and melamine bad. But nobody seems to want to help out the poor specifications writer who wants to know the manufacturer, brand, number, etc., of the high grade, water-resistant, long-lived melamine. So, what is the Advantech of melamine, and who uses it to makes cabinets? Somebody name names.
Adrian and some of the others know the right specs... me..
i know from the looks and weight of the goods what is obvious ..
a denser mdf, panel thickness, and a better melamine surface ( scratch resistence )... are what you are looking for.... edge quality.. the way the product cuts, routs , drills and holds screws all have an impact on the product
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't use the stuff and I don't know from personal hands on....but in a recent kitchen design class the old guy was talking about new materials that replace old and how that affects design....His opioniion for what it is worth, was that 40# PBd is the thing to look for. I think that is the desnity rating.I stay as far from PBd here as possible from past experience, but he said that 40# is just as unaffected by moisture as any natural wood because of the better glues and resins used now.I'll stop now because I have already told you more than I know....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We did one kitchen with these cabinets. I wont touch them now. For what you might save in the purchase of these cabinets, you will spend alot more in labor. There cheap. When you cut a panel to scribe to a wall. Once you take off the finished edge the material just starts to expand. Cheap press board. I don't recomend them. Also if a customer buys them and asks us to install, I tell them to get someone else.
Mike - Foxboro