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Apprentice Carpenters…. Got a question or two for you guys union or not… My son is an apprentice carpenter 2nd year, one day he comes home burned out from carrying those dry walls 5/8X4X12 sheets in a rainy day and full of mud. He was soaked and caked with mud. He tells me he had to carry them himself. I know those are darn heavy for even myself on those 5/8X4X8 sheets and I would have a helping hand. What are your rules on that kind of carrying system?
Next he had to carry all those joist that are 2X12X maybe 14 footers himself again. Got a bruse blue sore on both of his arms and a blister on the shoulder. I thought those union jobs were working for and helping one another? Again what’s the rules?
A worried Dad and one time carpenter. |
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Replies
A 2x12x14 isn't hard to carry. A 5/8x4x12 is definitely awkward to carry depending on where he was carrying it and how far. Also, how big is your son?
Joe Carola
Edited 5/12/2007 11:06 pm ET by Framer
I remember toting 2 bunks of OSB up the stairs (10' first floor walls) in a day. 66x2.. 2 sheets at a time , so thats like what ?? carrying 2 sheets up 66 flights of stairs ? Your kid's a whiner. He should be bragging. Those carps are prepping him. Sorry for the nonsupport, but we make or brake the greenhorns.....a guy that whines about his job just don't deserve that job period.....
Your kid's a whiner. He should be bragging. Those carps are prepping him.
I can't agree. In my opinion, that's the type of machoism that gets people hurt. One serious back injury can last a lifetime - not worth risking it to impress the j-men. 12' sheetrock does not have the rigidity of osb, and a piece in flex has a radically shifting center of gravity. The human spine was not intended to support that type of load."I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe
Sounds like a blank cheque for any boss to act however they want. Welcome to the 19th century.
No one said he was whining.Twenty years ago, when I thought things were going well with a certain girl and I was all jacked up, I was carrying 2 sheets of 3/4 CDX around the job. Never happened before or since.If I was told to move 5/8x12' SH by myself, I'd whine. And I'd be F@#$ing pissed off.If I decide to do it, I know my body and it's limits, but it still is foolish.If I'm told to do it, that's BS.The lumber? No bog deal. Build your strength. It's a physical job.Glenn
>>>>I remember toting 2 bunks of OSB up the stairs (10' first floor walls) in a day. 66x2.. 2 sheets at a time , so thats like what ?? carrying 2 sheets up 66 flights of stairs ?Your kid's a whiner. He should be bragging. <<<<<<<Hey hero...Good for you. Sounds to me like you work stupid, not smart.
That ain't a good carp...thats a stupid one!
I've done triple that in my time and I feel stupid for doing it, not like bragging about being an idiot. Now at 56 all those STOOPID things I did are catching up with me although I think I've worked it out with my body...luckily.
If anything he should have figured out a way to do it other than lifting and twisting his body around. Our bodies weren't made to do that in spite of the fact that we can. I wouldn't treat my tools with such disrespect...never mind someones body.I was just given this link to becoming a contractor in California
http://michie.lexisnexis.com/california/lpext.dll/cacontr/7?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#...and no matter if I move there not there's great stuff to be learned in here.
How to run a crew is one of them. Management and saftey issues etc etc.
Work smart and safe seems right to me...and leave hazing to the frat idiots as well.This guy was taken badly advantage of...he should find out the union rules because A GOOD CREW WORKS TOGETHER!!
andy...
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
A GOOD CREW WORKS TOGETHER!!
That's the truth right there Andy. Anything else encourages a pecking order. I believe a pecking order is very counter productive. It encourages the 'elders' to get lazy and not do stuff for themselves. They start only doing what they want to do instead of what needs doing. And it discourages the new guys from learning and becoming productive in other ways. I still pick up a broom. I'll still install hardware. And I still lump lumber.
Which... to be fair.... is still part of the job. Sometimes lumping a load of lumber just needs to get done. Let's not forget that when we get angry with the guys saying "toughen up" because to some extent they're right.
Personally, I think what we've been told about this kid and his situation is taken out of context and the context of the tasks in question is very important in deciding whether or not this was "abuse" or just a hard day at the office. View Image
Personally, I think what we've been told about this kid and his situation is taken out of context and the context of the tasks in question is very important in deciding whether or not this was "abuse" or just a hard day at the office. <<<Out of context or not it leaves us with a reason to have a good dialogue about this issue assuming it was abusive even to a small degree.
Too many newbies come in here that are just starting out and read what seasoned carps are saying and go with it to some degree.
I had a guy that worked for me for years..George. Mr Macho...but a really great devoted guy. i'd literally have to stop him from carrying two bundles of shingles up the ladder to the roof and things of that nature. He'd eventually hurt himself one way or another and he wasn't particularly a huge guy. Days out of work with a hurt back would help no one in the long run and running yourself into the ground isn't sensible for all kinda obvious reasons.
You get more work done and better quality work when we feed each other.
Makes you happy to be on the job. Makes you want to do well.
Positive energy breeds positive energy. I've always done all phases from clean up to digging post holes to humping roofing up when a boom wasn't accessable. I always looked at it as good exercise as long as I don't over do it...same as working out with weights.I figure I'm just too tired lately at the end of my day to hop on the tradmill or press some weights so I get that all done throughout my day in my work... consciously. Even makes for a better attitude when you do shid jobs like I did Friday making fifty gazillion trips up the stairs with materials.ugh
Have a great mothers day Brian.
andy...
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Oh, I'm on board with you Andy. I think the topic is definitely worth kicking around for awhile. And you're right about the positive energy. A crew is team. Teams are about chemistry. Good chemistry can be magic. Bad chemistry can be toxic. The hard part is that it only takes one bad attitude to wreak havoc. And angry mean boss'll do it. As will a disgruntled abused laborer.
As the leader of a crew I just can't imagine why you'd put one guy on moving a pile of 12' sheets of rock. That's just dumb. Some are bound to get broken. It's gonna take all damm day. And the dude doing it is gonna be miserable. It's just a bad idea. But I'm not ready to call iy abuse just yet. I've carried an entire bunk of plywood up to an attic more than once. Not because I'm a hero.... but because that's where it needed to go and I was available to do it. I just really think it depends on the circumstance. But I still don't understand the 12' rock thing......that's just messed up.View Image
Dang man...two bundles in one trip up a ladder? That's some serious shid.
And here I am trying to dream up equipment gizmos to just ease hauling a single bundle.
be winchpower on ladderrollerstagline- The secretary of the Province of New Netherland, writing in Dutch, in 1650, for the information of those who wished to take up land there, states more particularly that "those in New Netherland, and especially in New England, who have no means to build farmhouses at first according to their wishes, dig a square pit in the ground, cellar fashion, six or seven feet deep, as long and as broad as they think proper, case the earth inside with wood all round the wall, and line the wood with the bark of trees or something else to prevent the caving in of the earth; floor this cellar with plank, and wainscot it overhead for a ceiling, raise a roof of spars clear up, and cover the spars with bark or green sods, so that they can live dry and warm in these houses with their entire families for two, three, and four years -Thoreau's Walden
I remember humping two bundles of 3-tabs at a time up a 2-story ladder... and lots of it.
Then I discovered ladder-vators... or whatever they are called.
Now it's rooftop delivery for me.
I've earned too many injuries.... I've learned the value of working smart, not hard.
Anyhow, to the matter at hand.
Hauling enough 2X12X14 can be a bear but all in hard day's work.
Humping 5/8"X12' sheets of GWB... BS. I wouldn't dream of doing it to an employee of mine.... or taking the risk of my sheets being damaged. Now, if he had to do it with the aid of a cart or something, I'd feel differently.
My guess is your son is too new to know the difference just yet. Had it been a guy with more years on the job, he'd have told the boss to scrounge up a plan B. If it were me... well, let's just say there are good reasons why I work for myself.
on edit: OOOPs, long story but this is Pete Draganic
Edited 5/13/2007 11:20 am ET by CBuck
Recalling years back playing the role of a walkon to the construction of a large auditorium with nosebleed sections way up there.
I was told I would be bolting scaffolds together and later on found I was mixed in with the dayhires for grunting these long lengths of like 20ply scaffold planks and ungodly amounts of 3/4 ply up these stairs over and over and over.
After a while the dayhires started dropping like flies and laying out until it was just me and this old nam vet who walked with a limp from scrapnel in his knee.
We'd started feeding off each other with a 'hell, man we're going thru!' operation we'd created.
Finally got'er done and sat down. Could feel my whole body kind of shimmer with a vibration for a long time. Probably good for me but I made a visit to the supe that day to say so long and no offense but I was getting to old for this stuff anymore.
be passing primetagline- The secretary of the Province of New Netherland, writing in Dutch, in 1650, for the information of those who wished to take up land there, states more particularly that "those in New Netherland, and especially in New England, who have no means to build farmhouses at first according to their wishes, dig a square pit in the ground, cellar fashion, six or seven feet deep, as long and as broad as they think proper, case the earth inside with wood all round the wall, and line the wood with the bark of trees or something else to prevent the caving in of the earth; floor this cellar with plank, and wainscot it overhead for a ceiling, raise a roof of spars clear up, and cover the spars with bark or green sods, so that they can live dry and warm in these houses with their entire families for two, three, and four years -Thoreau's Walden
Edit: Meant to address this to the OP;
I humped a lot of 4X12 5/8" firecode rock on union jobs. The proper way to do it is to leave the boards doubled up and carry them with two guys. Tell your son that he should take his grip close to the end of the boards, so he doesn't carry more than his half of the load. This is also the way that drywall supplier's drivers and helpers work together, when they load a new house with rock. They always carry the boards doubled, with the end tapes on, one guy on each end. One other small hint; both guys should carry exactly the same way, boards leaning against upper arm/shoulder, walking in step. The guy in back is responsible for keeping in step. Also, it's just common sense to switch from left hand to right and visa-versa, every four or five carries. If a carpenter gets in the habit of carrying loads on only one side, he's much more likely to end up with sciatica, from the added wear to one side of that disc.
I suspect that the 2X12-14's he was talking about were scaffold planks, not joists. If that's the case, they're full two inches thick and can be quite heavy, particularly if they've been used by masons and are full of hardened mortar. Still, it's not unusual for an apprentice to get stuck with moving a pile of planks on a muddy job site. It happens to journeymen too, as I recall.
Sciatica and other back problems are very unpleasant to deal with, later in life. They limit the kinds of activities that a person can do and cause depression too. A lot of guys I've known, including me, have sciatica. I was fortunate to be able to get away from heavy lifting by the age of fifty so I'm coping with my back problems without a lot of pain but still, I wished that I'd been smarter about how I lifted and carried each load that I was assigned over my working life.
Edited 5/13/2007 11:47 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"A lot of guys I've known, including me, have sciatica."
I've got that. Never been diagnosed but I know i have it.
And i'ts from construction.
I hired a kid once who was a wwrestler and football player. I told him I needed that lift of shingles up on that roof - take you time and be careful, here i show I do it...He says, "Oh Boy! This can help me get in shape for football!"
And he starts humping two at a time and almost running up the ladder!I had to stop him because I was afraid the ladder would give out from under him - 180# of stud plus 140# of shingles = 320# of stress compounded by the way he was bounciung the ladder....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We're all also forgetting that lovely word when someone gets hurt...
"LAWSUIT"!
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
He might be a whiner, and you're a moron. 12 ft rock breaks too easily, so #1 they are risking damage to the materials. Humping floor joists is one thing, but there's no point in one person carrying anything larger than one sheet of 4x8 ply."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm an old man with a bad back and I have no trouble handling 2x12x14 all day long, but it is insane expecting him to carry that 12' SR alone. I do think there was some kind of job prank testing/hazing going on there...
Maybe he was whinning about some minor thing so they cornered him into an either prove yourself or get the h3ll out kind of day.
Now that he has done it, next time, he can just say, "Who is going to carry the other end, and wait for an answer.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I've had days like that too.... by the end I wanted to kill the boss. Sore, caked in mud, soaking wet..... oh wait...... I am the boss! Seriously... tell your boy 'welcome to construction'. Sure beats sitting in an office all day.
In all seriousness..... the sheets of rock.... he probably would have been better off with a partner. If not just for his own sake then for the sake of the rock. I don't handle the stuff myself much but when I do I like to have a partner because the stuff is just so dang awkward and easy to break.
The 2x12's shouldn't have been a problem though. I'd actually get aggravated if I had someone on the other end. Much easier to just throw it on my shoulder and go.
I understand your concern, but your boy needs to find his own limits. I carried some things just a few years ago that I wouldn't even bother trying to today. I've had LVL's on my shoulder where I could literally feel my spine springing. That's just dumb.
It really depends on some of the other conditions involved too. How far was he going with the material? And was it literally "all day"? As a boss, it's often counterproductive for me to put one guy on a big pile that needs to be moved. He'll get discouraged disgruntled and move slow. May even get hurt. It often makes more sense for me to just throw everybody on site at it and get it done and over with. Your kid needs to decide for himself whether his boss is an azzhole or if it were just part of the job. It is construction after all.... bruises, blisters, mud, and bad days are part of it to some extent.
Additionally, it's often just this sort of work that motivates young carpenters to start learning something. To find a way to become more valuable to the boss doing other productive work so he looks to someone else for the grunt work. I know when I was green I took one look at the guys strapping ceilings, installing hardware, putting on Tyvek and other mundane jobs and figured I'd better learn how to read blueprints, run trim, layout, and cut roofs........ quick!
What's your son's take on it? Is he concerned or is it just you? I know some guys are assuming your boy was "whining" about it. I never heard you say that.... just heard you say that you're concerned.
Edited 5/13/2007 8:00 am ET by dieselpig
2x12x14's aren't that bad. I carry 40' I joists all day, and 30' LVL's. Tell your son to toughen up. This career isn't easy.
We all come home sore, bruised up. THat comes with the territory.
Here I'll move my reply from teh first thread here too.
They are going to hurt him. Sounds like the guys he's working for were brought up the wrong way and don't care, They see it as tough love or some such crap. Ask a lot of guys with herniated disks and bad ankles and such what they could have done different to prevent their condition. They will tell you that they wouldn't have humped heavy loads like that when they were younger.
I once had a boss tell me because he could make me do anything he wanted. ( He thought he owned his employees.) That he could make me dig a ditch with a spoon. I replied in a calm factual tone. "Go ahead pay me full wages to dig a ditch with a spoon. I'll make tons of money doing less. And my lawyer and I will have your company by the end of the month." He snapped out of his little power trip. And I made lead man soon after. He was a jerk the whole time I worked for him. But he never gave me too much guff after that.
"Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously." G.K. Chesterton
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Here is one way to look at it:
When I bid a job, stocking the materials is part of it. There is a lot of difference in moving materials 10 ft or to a 3rd floor. If I see a situation where I have to move 12 ft SR up a hill over mud- I am going to charge well for it.
AND, after charging about $300-$400 for it (or whatever) I'm not going to throw it off on some poor guy making $7- $9 an hour to do by himself.
Now is a good time for your son to start doing a few little side jobs himself using what he has learned, how ever small they are (small decks, etc) while working for these idiots. After a while he will get confident in himself and be able to work for himself.
lumber as in long rafters its better to carry yourself, But 12 foot sheetrock?????.. Not sure what kind of job it is but if its union i wonder where the laborors are???, sounds like there useing him for labor instead, I know how you feel as a dad, It sounds a little like there busting his chops, Any person knows its 2 men for a 12 foot piece of rock unless its just a short move, I even see the sr guys with 2 men. As for the lumber well thats what we do but if lumber is wet a 2by6 14 footer can be a lot, When i was a Union carpenter i looked out for my apprentices and took a lot of heat for speaking up, Now years later i have men thank me, Some companys can be downright mean This is part of the learning too
Bluegillman,
I have no idea what union rules are.
5/8" rock in 4 x 12 sheets is not a one man job , I have done it and I am relatively small .
Sounds to me as if the foreman/super was simply trying to stretch his labor pool by having one man do a two man job.
Bet the foreman/super gets a bonus based on how much under budget he can bring the job home for.
" Bet the foreman/super gets a bonus based on how much under budget he can bring the job home for."If so, the guy is a moron. Two guys could do this in a third of the time one novice can , and have fewer broken sheets
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There is no specific union rule about carrying rock. Sounds like he might be on someones bad side. Stocking 12' by yourself is a bad practice, you end up with broken corners or fractured board. 2 men to a bundle is the norm here.
You are right to be concerned, he can really mess up his back if unexperienced, but it seems like he has to be the one to speak up. Most union companies have a strict safety policy and lifting guidelines. We usually don't move 12's without a dolly, unless impossible to do so.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.