looking forward to your feedback before making final decisions – easiest and probably most reasonable buy new above ground app. 4′ high tank and reinstall to our boiler. Wife hears of exposed tank and immediately says no and is thinking gas. I think I can take care of the undesirable looking tank w/ some lattice and such but feel I should explore alternatives. We have a hot water system boiler w/ radiators that has hummed onward despite my less than regular cleanings and infrequent ( maybe every other year at best ) tune ups filter changes by tech. Right now fine running system w/ no tank although when the tech does come he always says I’m going to have to replace this system someday. Any ideas on latest in oil tanks ( our old app 575 gallons / new one mentioned 4′ high 275 gallons ) or new oil boiler or new gas boiler – hear they may be 3X3X2 cube but also $4 grand or more where we are not going. Gas comes into it because of wife’s prejudice to it over oil and because I’m doing some remodeling and have plans of putting in a propane tank to serve a faux log airtight unit as we want a heat source that family can use Vs. woodstove and it is the one part of the house the boiler serves very poorly and propane will also serve gas cooktop. Propane if doing faux log & cooktop because natural gas install very expensive / if go furnace , faux gas log & cooktop natural gas people cover install. Your ideas will be most appreciated John
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Well John, you could get to four grand pretty quickly replacing this underground tank and if it is leaking, you have to do it yesterday.
All underground tanks were supposed to be inspected and 'certified' a couple of years ago. There is a cleanup fund someplace. The DEP digs out all the contaminated soil along with it. Then they fine the owner in certain circumstances.
New underground tanks are impossible, from a practical standpoint, is what I hear because of the insurance, inspections, and paperwork hassles to get one permitted. Unless you've got money to burn, that is.
Do it now
Excellence is its own reward!
John,
I can't speak to the oil tank, but an inground LP tank is simple, easy and inexpensive. Since LP is a gas at atmospheric pressure, leakage is not a significant environmental concern. I recently bought a 500 gallon LP underground tank for about $600. 5' deep hole, concrete slab in the bottom to anchor the tank down, backfilled with sand, covered over with top soil.
John- as someone who does lots of environmental work for clients......GET THAT TANK OUT OF THE GROUND NOW!!! You are contaminating your lot and potentially people's around you- Be sure to have the local fire department sign off on the removal and document that it was done in accordance with your states department of environmental protection regulations.
Jake -
I reread John's post and don't see mention of any leaks.
Are current regulations such that most (older but still active) underground tanks are nudged toward getting dug up irregardless of their condition ?
I guess that's where the inspections come in. - Is there a web site that talks about current federal and state regulations ?
Also, what's the status on houses that were converted to natural gas years ago and the the empty underground tank remains ?
I've heard of these either being filled with water or sand or in many cases left empty.
Thanks for your insight.
Alan
and all customary in thew Northwest to fill w/ concrete or foam by licensed certified contractor who can give proper documents confirming having sealed and filled homeowners tank * abandoned tank may not come up except for homeowner declaring on disclosure form at point of sale ( or if it is a standard item noted on real estate transaction form ) evolution of saga slowly becoming and being convinced besides my tank failing that it is time to retire my 60 - 80 ? year old boiler - one guy says it burned sawdust before coal - has hummed along flawlessly but showing signs of tubes leaking etc. With children not too far from heading off to college and our probable selling of this house in about 4 yrs and the antiquated furnace a huge hurdle to selling house might be time to bite the bullet. remodel adding airtight gas log heater/fireplace and gas cooktop 9 thinking propane before travails w/ boiler. What are your preferences ? GAS or OIL gas co. will provide line for "free" Thanks John
As noted, get that tank out now. I had to take a buried oil tank out in MA a few years ago to sell a house.
"How much?" I asked.
"Depends" He said.
"On what?" I asked.
"On how long we have toi keep digging to get rid of the contaminated soil" he said.
"You'll pay for hazardous waste disposal, as well." He added.
Forwarned is forarmed._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
John- as someone who does lots of environmental work for clients......GET THAT TANK OUT OF THE GROUND NOW!!! You are contaminating your lot and potentially people's around you- Be sure to have the local fire department sign off on the removal and document that it was done in accordance with your states department of environmental protection regulations.
Jake--
But is the leakage, if any, actually contaminating any surface water and/or potential drinking water supplies? Is the the groundwater already contaminated? Is a greater local risk presented by local businesses (e.g.: gas stations). Like yourself, I am also familiar with the current environmental viewpoint on in-ground domestic tanks, and the prices charged per volume of contaminated material removed, from a risk-analysis viewpoint how much is truly justified and how much is hoopla and a revenue source?
Regards,
Rework
> from a risk-analysis viewpoint how much is truly justified and how > much is hoopla and a revenue source?
With government, I'd say it is fair to assume revenue source until proven otherwise. Unfortunately, there have been a few big legitimate toxic waste sites which dominate the legislation and media, and now every little case is compared to them. I ran some numbers the other day and most of the chemicals I was looking at were regulated at concentrations from 10-100 times below where one could ascribe a single cancer death due to that chemical which was discernable from noise. Remember, 1/3 of us will die from cancer. How many of you can go back to one incident or exposure and say that it was the one which caused the tumor? When they say a particular chemical killed a rat, it was usually because they applied so much the rat drowned.
With oil tanks, you have to get the work done by a licensed contractor and it has to be inspected. So you have taxes and fees tossed into something which otherwise could be done by the homeowner. Governments love taxes and fees, period. But if they regulated everything where it really ought to be regulated, they wouldn't be able to collect all those fees.
Look at lead paint. We all know the problem is unsupervised kids eating paint. How effing hard is it to clean every once in awhile? Of course the kids are stupid, its genetic, their parents were stupid and passed on the trait. But no, in our new era of never blaming a victim because they didn't take reasonable precautions, we are saddled with a huge number of restrictions on what we can and can't do with lead paint.
Don't even get me started on the invlvement of lawyers in all this.
I didn't catch where Mr. Harkins lives. Unless you other folks did, you should hesitate to give advice on environmental regulations and requirements. Some states do require residential tanks to be tested and removed. Other states allow them to abandoned in place after being filled with foam or concrete. Some states (California is one) exempt residential tanks from the UST regs that caused so many service station to be ripped up and/or abandoned when the cost to haul the contaminated soil exceeded the value of the real estate. Then your only driver is real estate issues (which certainly can be significant).
Back to his questions: Most upgrades you do before a sale are NOT recovered dollar for dollar. And remedial work is not even pennies on the dollar. Don't think that dropping $4,000-6,000 into the heating system will get you an extra dollar at sales time. People expect a house to have central heat and won't pay extra for it. Compare, instead, what kind of credit a buyer would want when the home inspector points out the old and funky heating system. The buyer is sometimes optimistic in their assessment of what it would take to upgrade.
UST or AST? (underground vs aboveground storage tank) The tank itself will run a litle over $1.00/gallon. The install of a UST costs a touch more and disturbs the landscaping a lot more. But then it is out of sight, out of mind for a few a decades (a plus and a minus!). Bigger is better because than you can buy in the off season when fuel oil prices are lower.
To boost the lagging UST industry, many manfacturers banded together and now offer a substanial insurance policy, at no added cost, on their tank installation. So if it leaks in its specified lifetime, they pay, not you.
Are you sure the natural gas install is expensive? Some utilities subsidize the installation. My own house was free for the first 150 feet and $1.00/foot beyond. Which is CHEAP, compared to what any private installation would cost. Your utility would certainly cost it out for free, then you can go from there. In addition to NG being a bit cheaper than oil in most areas, there are all those burner tune-ups by the technician that you save. That's some money and bother.
P.S. real cooks use gas. So unless you prepare all your own meals, don't begrudge her a gas (propane or NG) range.
Many thanks for your views from Cook's Inlet
yes did not really think of recovering money or making money because we replaced boiler / more we eliminated a potential huge red flag and provided a no doubt no question central heating system. As I continue to digest this issue I'm leaning much farther to the gas connection - your point of gas cooking and the issue of tune ups on burner - gas much more maintenance free ?
our gas install will be free - just want to have a pre-installation walk thru w/ line contractor to see how we go around/under rock wall, stone walk & concrete sidewalk areas I think gas will be final decision as long as walk thru w/ contractor is good and I'll post what the final chapter is on our tank situation - Tacoma Pacific NW
thanks John
Our house originally had an in-ground tank which was decommissioned by a previous owner. It also apparently had a second tank installed sometime later in the garage which fed to the house via a fairly shallow 3/8" copper pipeline that was easily discovered and removed. So you likely aren't limited to placing the tank in an area where it can be seen.
If you do get it removed and decommisioned, make sure the company is reputable. One local company was recently fined $184K by the state for doing substandard work, and the homeowners are still liable for making sure their property is clean. OUCH!
We looked at maybe 250 houses, and only found 4 that we liked. One of them was a beautifully built 2BR, 2BA 1949 brick ranch house on a double lot in one of the nicer old neighborhoods. Perfect house for a nice master bedroom suite addition. House was owned by two older ladies who got bilked out of it via a defaulted loan, and now the bank was selling, and since the bank hadn't "lived" in the house, it was being sold as-is with no disclosure. But standing in the breezeway between the house and garage, one could easily smell kerosene coming from the area next to the oil-tank fill pipe. So what to do? At $249K, the place was priced about $50K below market. But that oil smell was a big unknown. The only way to know is by taking samples and testing, but only the property owner can do the tests or give permission to do the tests, and those doing the tests are required to notify the Department of Environmental Quality if they find a problem. After three days of going over and over it, we decided to walk, but it was a hard decision. It could have been a local $5K fix, or you could have found yourself excavating half the property to get all the contaminated soil. I think it has been long enough that maybe I'll swing by some weekend and see what the new owner, if there is one, had to do.
hey the evolution of these threads and the matters discussed - just Tuesday I called off the contractor who provides installation of "free" gas line. Gas Co refers two heating/boiler contractors to me and I have my guy who knows boilers and hot water heat. First referred contractor tells me they aren't very experienced w/ boilers so he'll send me a plumbing contractor who' s into them - he just called today. The next guy practically embraced our beheamoth and what aint broke don't fix it. Sticking w/ oil and getting a free tank from the supervisor of the dept. where we get the permit for "new" tank. He's doing remodel and tank is in the way so we get it for our removing it - the guy installing sells oil and his brother siphons, fills & certifys tanks. Have run into a fine bunch.
Wood is there a chance that tank situation you described could have been covered by a statewide insurance program funded by oil providers ( and ultimately users ) ?. Apparently here in the state of Washington the fund is quite healthy and the powers that be are trying to get their hands on it for general use.
In future I'll need all your feedback on propane installation - free standing gas log and cooktop - Oh almost forgot re: your comment don't have to see - the recommissioned tank is going in basement half under stairs above like six feet from the boiler many thanks John
Edited 3/6/2003 7:28:06 PM ET by JOHNHARKINS
I'm actually auditing a course on risk assessment at toxic waste sites (possible career change) that is co-taught by a big-wig in the State Department of Environmental Quality. I mentioned this situation to him while we were discussing the situation about DEQ fining the cleanup company, and he said my decision to walk was probably the best one. I might have found myself digging up the neighbors yard as well.