I did an advanced search on this but couldn’t find anything. Just wondered if anyone could comment on what problems I might have with inexpensive (.87 sq ft) 12 x 12 ceramic floor tile….as compared to the expensive stuff? Hopefully, no problems? Thinking of using it for several bathrooms. It has a very slight texture and a low gloss finish.
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My experience with cheaper tile, and I 've happliy used a good bit, is the dimensional accuarcy is not as good - the heights and widths vary enough that you might need to open up the grout joints to hide that, which means sanded grout - nothing bad in that.
Also, the tiles may be cupped or sadddled, really noticeable on 12x12s, requiring some "back-buttering" or culling, or use the worst pieces for the cut ones.
I recently used some cheap rough natural slate 12x12 tile from HD on two different jobs (floor and backsplash) - both look great, but man they were a lot of work to seat and set! Lots o' thinset and more grout than you'd calculate.
Forrest
Thanks, I am in same situation and have been looking at less expensive tile , I have a 275 sf. entry I am going to tile, so .75 HD tile compared to $2.00 - $3.00 , really is worth lookin at. note: this is for my own house.
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!
I always look at the tile distributors here in Portland (Dal, Cronin, Wanke, AO etc.). They almost always have odd lots and close-outs priced to sell, usually take- all.
Picked up 600 ft of 6x6 grey quarry tile for .35/ sq. ft this week.
Good luck,
Raymond
O, that this too, too, sullied flesh would thaw, melt and resolve itself into a dew.
The first time I used inexpensive floor tile, I was keen to have thinner grout lines, and after about 4 or 5 courses, I noted that the corners wouldn't line up. I had to lift em up and relay em with a wider grout line so it wouldn't be so noticable.
Turns out they were just ever so slightly out of square, so if thin grout lines are in yer agenda, be careful.
I might not do good work, but I am slow.
Eric
Good post.
Tim
"Also, the tiles may be cupped or sadddled, really noticeable on 12x12s, requiring some "back-buttering" or culling, or use the worst pieces for the cut ones."
FWIW, I was working on a tiled bay window sill with Laticrete thin-set yesterday and happened to read the directions because there was another thread about this earlier this week. Their instructions say all, not some, tile larger than 10x10 need to be back buttered.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Their instructions say all, not some, tile larger than 10x10 need to be back buttered.
I hate to mess up a good idea . Thats a very good one but its not a productive one .
Try a test before you ever use thinset. Set the tile in a test spot and lift it up. If its not bonding its too dry . If the pattern of he trowl gets sqooshed its too wet. What you want is the thinset holding the pattern while bonding to the tile when its makes contact. The water is then a measured amount to a bag or what ever you use ratio but its needs to be exact every time and thats the mud you will have every time .
Tim
>Their instructions say all, not some, tile larger than 10x10 need to be back buttered.I've been back buttering everything. Every now and then I'll try to pull up a tile shortly after I set it and they almost break they're so tight down. Like they've been epoxied.Edited 1/29/2006 4:55 pm ET by jdarylh1
Edited 1/29/2006 4:55 pm ET by jdarylh1
They may not admit it but they are always seconds. Theres something wrong . As long as you know that going in its ok. The other part of it is that they always are 12x12s or 13x13s and Ive seen some 16s .
That size of tile has to have a flat surface , so re-leveling and patching may be necesary. I go through several boxes at one time and pick and cull . They will be irregular and dont hold up true to chalk line lay outs so opt for a larger grout lines and sanded grout in a matching color . If you chose a light blue tile with black grout , you better be looking at #1s. The last job I did was 13s in seconds for .89 cents a piece so I knew fully well what was up there. I chose desert sand in the tile and the grout. Lots of tiles are 1/16th difference in size. Some as mentioned are warped in some way and are stacked for cuts . I chose the bigger notched knife for the thin set in 3/8ths I believe. So it takes more thin set and more grout so disrequard what you are supposed to be using in materails and buy lots of extra tile. I try to set 4 deep off lines and then eyeball them for the final approach often splitting differences to get them as straight as possible but when they are different sizes its never exact. Theres more labor to it by far and #1s are a pure joy to lay as they are perfect and lay right in grid lines.
You cant get 13s to lay on a floor thats not on level plane but 8s would for example as they are shorter to follow some humps or dips. Really the floor should be prepped anyway reguardless for a good looking job.
Tim
I got 1/8" spacers because I don't like the look of wide grout lines, but that's probably a dumb idea with cheap tiles. I guess what everyone is saying then is that there's nothing really wrong with the tiles, they're just going to take a bit more labor to install. I had already planned on getting grout that was the same color as the tiles but your comment was interesting, that you do same color grout in order to minimize size differences on seconds. Good point. So 1/4" spacers, same color grout and plan on it taking a little longer. I've already bought a lot extra (because I'm allowed to return what I don't use) so I'm good in that regard.About grout - I noticed that HD has "20 yr. stain proof" grout but the colors are a little limited. Any thoughts about that vs. re-sealing regular grout every couple years?
About grout - I noticed that HD has "20 yr. stain proof" grout but the colors are a little limited. Any thoughts about that vs. re-sealing regular grout every couple years?
I didnt know about that . I always seal with silicone. Sounds like it might be a time saver but I bet its not as good.
Tim
Use a regular colored grout. Seal it once and forget it.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I dont know where he came up with every two years.
Tim
>I dont know where he came up with every two years.Read it somewhere. Don't have personal experience on that one. I read a number of "how often do I seal grout" things ranging from bi-yearly to every 3-5 years if you use top quality sealer.
I guess I'm about 20 years overdue on the downstairs bath.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
The worst problem would be if they are cupped. But you can sight down the edge to check them out.
Inexpensive or not, dealing with 12" square ceramic, gauged/ungauged slate, marble, granite, etc, it is never a bad idea to "back-butter" the tile when setting it into a bed of thinstet mortar. Remember, it is best to have 100% coverage. If not, at least make sure the corners have complete coverage.
You mention a slight texture on you tile...is there any pattern to the texture or color?
Often the least expensive tiles are of fine quality and reasonably uniform size and shape--but only one pattern. The more expensive tiles often have many and varied patterns.
If pattern is an issue, with cheap tiles, pay attention to the way you orient them as you lay them.
ie.:
uuun vs. uncn etc.
If you haven't tried them, the large size wedges, as sold at HD, can help a bunch when fudging grout lines on odd size tiles. Also, the hard spacers made to fit the intersections, as sold at Lowes, leave a much worse look than the soft rubbery ones since the rubber will naturally compress and compensate a bit for tight spots. The rubber spacers used away from the corners so they'll compress more, combined with wedges as needed are my typical approach.
Personally, I'm not a fan of wide grout lines on anything other than natural slate. I would recommend layout with a smaller grout line and move the more irregular tiles to the outside or use for cuts.
Cheap tile is cheap because every part of it is skimped on to make a barely acceptable product. The clay isn't as strong, it's not as flat, it's not square, the surface glaze is rediculously thin, defects are more common, the method of coloring and patterning looks rough up close, etc. Having said that, cheap tile is better than expensive vinyl any day! Used some .77c HD tile on the girlfreind's mother's house with an 1/8" grout line and my only regret was that a 1/16" line wasn't used with careful culling.
Happy grouting,
Don
Not familiar with the wedges. I'll have to look next time I'm over there. Thanks. I've gone through a box of tiles so far and haven't found any issues yet. Guess I've been lucky. The tile does seem to chip a bit when I'm using my right angle ginder (diamond blade) for cutouts. But I learned that putting down a wide piece of packing tape first, then easing into the cut helps to minimize the chipping. Doesn't really matter because the edge is covered by the register or toilet. It's just that I don't like sloppy looking cutting.
I used an inexpensive tile on a kitvhen remodel and it was also installed in my last home when I bouht it. The worst part of it was the chipping over time. I would not use it again for a flat surface material - I think for a wall covering it is OK.
I have switched to itallian dry-pressed porcelin tile for projects. It is the same material all the way through. It costs about $3 / sf - quite a bit higher than the tile you are looking at.
Also, I go to HD / Lowes for most stuff, but never for tile. Their selection is very limited, and for the money, you can get a lot more from a tile supplier.
Thanks,
TTF
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>The worst part of it was the chipping over time.That has me a little concerned. What caused the chipping? Heavy stuff like pans dropping on the floor?
I'll second the suggestion to shop "close outs" at reputable tile stores, the cheap stuff just drives you nuts. Cheap tile at HD is just that, cheap tile and it shows.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
We had two kinds of chipping with the cheap tile - edges from getting whacked by pans and small pitting. Eventually, I regretted the cheap tile choice.
Althought this thread died a little while ago, I thought I'd add a bit I learned today in case someone is doing a search later for help on tile.Went to a "real" tile store to get a color of grout HD didn't have. Got to talking with one of the salespeople and showed him the tile I'm using. He said "It's made in the USA". I'm thinking that's good but he says "Not so". "US clay is not nearly as dense as European clay (he obviously hasn't seen my yard!) and consequently chips easier." (That may be the reason behind TTF's experience.)The top baked layer isn't done as well as more expensive tiles. He said he wouldn't put it in a high traffic area because of it's comparative fragility. However if it's laid well, there shouldn't be any problems except for chipping and there's no way to repair a chip. You bust the tile up, dig out the pieces and replace it. (However, you can buy dry pigments at an art supply store and I'll bet you could mix some with epoxy and get a pretty good match if the chipped area wasn't too big.)US tile is made out of red clay and that's the color that shows through if it chips. Some European tile is also made out of red clay, but it's about 4x denser than US clay. According to him the best for high traffic areas is porcelain that is "through colored" (the same from top to bottom).So if you use cheap tile and want to fool with the extra work, you just save an extra box and keep some extra grout put away for repairs later. I must say that this tile went down exceptionally well. I didn't have one bit of sizing, straightness or color variation trouble. Bought it at a place called "Bargain Outlet".About sealing the grout: his cheap grout sealer lasts 5 years then needs to be redone if you want to keep stains & dirt out. His best sealer lasts 15 years. So there really is a "life span" to grout sealer.
Last year, I laid approx 400 sq ft of 12" HD tile and almost drove myself nuts. The customer wanted it laid on the diagonal with 1/4" grout lines with black grout. The first area (kitchen and dining area) went pretty well with only a few mismatched corners. I was able to disguise them with a little creative sculpting of the grout.
The second area (entry and dining room) was a near catastrophe. When I bought the tile, I took two boxes that had been opened (I know, I know..........that was really dumb). Things went pretty well for most of the area, but really went to "heck" as I moved across the entry. Like an idiot, I kept "tweaking" it - telling myself I could fix it when I grouted.
When I went back the next day, I almost cried - no amount of "creative" grouting was gonna fix this wreck. I ripped out most of the entry tile and backer until I got back to a reasonably straight line (not perfect, but tolerable), then started looking into how I had managed to mess this up so badly. When I checked the diagonals on some of the leftover tiles, none of them were square and a couple were off as much as 3/32".
The moral of the story is that you really need to "cull" your tile before you start mixing the thinset. Errors are additive and on long runs you can get way off before you know it. Really out of square tiles should be set aside and only used for cut pieces.
Last year, I laid approx 400 sq ft of 12" HD tile and almost drove myself nuts. The customer wanted it laid on the diagonal with 1/4" grout lines with black grout.
I would have told the customer to do it . How much money did you make on the job?
I counted 4 things wrong in what I pasted. Mebbe Im too picky.
I keep remembering what Mike Smith says all the time . Its their dream not yours . You at least needed 3 dollar tile for a diagonal entry . They need to pay for their dreams not you.
I was gonna say earliar in the thread that I would never use seconds in an entry but I didnt want to hurt any feelings . But mebbe our bilfolds are more important than our pride.
Tim
Edited 1/29/2006 10:27 am by Mooney
Kinda hard to blow this customer off. She's been a friend and neighbor for over 20 years and I've done tons of work for her over the past couple of years - and she has more to do. The old saying about "Can't see it from my house" doesn't apply here - lol.
This was my own fault. I had done the kitchen/dining area with no major problems. In hindsight, I think it was because the runs were shorter (less error buildup) and I had all sealed boxes of tile. When I measured the leftover tiles after I had the wreck in the dining room and entry, several of them were from one of the opened boxes I had bought. I suspect that someone else had culled them and brought them back, and good old HD just put them back on the shelf. My bad and I won't make that mistake again.
The worst part was when I told her that I really needed to rip out the bad tile and re-do it. She was trying to find an excuse to accept it but I told her that I didn't want anyone esle to see it..............I didn't want my name tied to that mess - lol. No, I didn't make much money on that job but I can sleep at night. I absolutely refuse to shaft a customer and it may cost me in the short run but it will pay off eventually.