I’m looking for ideas or feedback on methods to inject foam.
Primarily, I’d like to be able to inject foam into the voids present below a wooden floor that is installed over sleepers on a concrete floor.
This is not slab on grade but the floors in a high-rise condominium building.
The sleepers are only 3/4″ tall so that means the gap is 3/4″ high by about 16″ wide, the full length of the room.
I would anticipate some semblance of drilling entry holes along a wall (above each bay) and inserting a tube to feed the expandable foam into the voids.
Maybe there is more of a machine I can use instead of the dreadful and unprofessional appearance of using a slew of cans of “great stuff”.
This is for sound attenuation.
Other methods or ideas are more than welcome.
Also, I’d be interested in feedback on the ability of foam to cure in enclosed areas. I once srayed expandable foam into plastic bags to use as formable packing foam but it wouldn’t cure in the bag.
Replies
I'd have to guess the sound attenuation would be next to nil. Not quite but close.
The sleepers make a direct solid path for the sound to come through the wood. Then making the space around it solid with foam connects the floor to subfloor as well. An air gap do disconnect would be better.
If you were able to fill all the gaps in the floor that would stop some airborn sound from coming up through from below. Foot traffic from above to the room below would not be reduced too much either with this specific approach I believe.
Anyone have actual experience with this or a close comparison?
Stu
I think it may prove highly effective in that it would reduce the ability of the flooring to "clack" when stepped upon and therefore reduce the "quality" of noise being created.
Also, it should produce a buffering effect on the entire assembly, much like your finger would beuffer the ring of a bell simply by touching it.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
> Maybe there is more of a machine I can use instead of the dreadful
> and unprofessional appearance of using a slew of cans of "great
> stuff".
When I renovated my wife's studio, I put in a cathedral ceiling. I read somewhere (probably FH) that you could dispense with venting if you sprayed foam insulation directly against the underside of the roof. I did some searching on the web and located at least two companies that sell kits for this for a few hundred dollars. I don't have those links anymore, but you should be able to find them. Each kit consisted of a foam tank sort of like a gas grill propane bottle and a nozzle. When it's empty, you toss it.
George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Thanks George.... I will look into that.
Any recollection of what the product may have been called ot the name of the arrangement or method? anything to give me a leg up on a search.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
i think abc roofing supply carries a diys foam guns,i think they are nationwide or the web site . larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Thanks again... We have an ABC not too far from here.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I just typed +polyurethane +foam +insulation +spray into Yahoo! and got a ton of hits. Here's the first one ...
http://www.tigerfoam.comGeorge Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Edited 4/7/2007 11:56 am ET by grpphoto
Farmtek.com has the foam dispenser outfits...and a whole lot else!
Two companies to google that sell large quantity kits:
fomofoam
tigerfoam
and I know someone sells a low expansion cavity filler type of foam
at minimum, get a foam gun and some cans, my local ABC doesn't carry them, I bought them through my ICF supplier
the cans are moisture cure, the big kits are two-part. I think either one would cure in your situation.
Pete
Someone else suggested it with ABC and I know that CAGIV had a thread going way back about this. I dont recall what he ended up buying or has but its not the cans that you pick up at HD or Lowes. Bigger canister if I recall.
Yea, your right about having 34 cans of FOAM laying around. Sorta looks like a DIYer. Plus I cant imagine it not being cost prohibitive.
Doug
>This is for sound attenuation.
Which sounds are you trying to attenuate? Footsteps or voices? Music or dog claws? Different materials work on different ranges of sounds. I'd hate for you putting effort into limiting one type of sound using materials or methods more effective for another.
I am trying to limit Impact class sounds that are being transmitted via the floor assembly.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Foam would help block voices and some music, I believe--the higher frequency stuff--but do very little for impact sounds. As MAsprayfoam said early on, I also believe that you'll have those as long as you have a direct path from floor-sleepers-slab. You'd need padding beneath the sleepers or some other break in the direct path for any meaningful improvement, imo.
I was hoping for some success in that fact that I can arrest the "clack" that walking makes on these floors in the first place.
It is not a thud but the clackity clack of dress shoes (for example) that carries so well. I'd be inclined to believe that the worst noise is created where the voids are beneath the wooden floor.
The alternate and more direct solution would be to remove all flooring and then apply an attenuation membrane before reintsalling the floors. Much work, mess and expense. I do wonder if it might be prudent to apply the foam injection idea in a sample area and test those results before committing to such a larger solution as R&R on the floors.
There are also aluminum frame windows that cover the entire face of the building in a largely continuous fashion. There was an odd noise carrying through into all the suites that sounded like an electric chipping hammer running in another suite. I discovered some loose material on the metal roof overhang that would buzz in the wind causing the noise.
I was also wondering if filling the frames with foam would deaden other potential tranmissions of sound.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
The clack of heels would be different from the more bassy sound of a 250# guy in work boots. Different frequencies. It's possible that the heel on the area with voids could be analogous to a drumstick on a drum.Have you considered blowing cellulose? A hole at each end of the cavity...and it'd be easier than the foam...less risk of a sticky mess.I agree with testing a section before committing to the whole thing.
Yes, I've pondered the cellulouse but am hesitiant because it may settle, attract moisture, and so on. The foam would expand and hopefully cling in order to dampen sounds.
We did a crude test by turning up the volum in one suite an listened from the adjacent suite. The bass was all you could hear well although a little of the other sounds were audible. This was at max volume. I then tested the db by placing my meter directly against the wall and then again against the floor. I easily got 10db more on the floor.
The unit-seperating walls are built with one set of 6" tracks and then 2X4 steel studs alternating sides to create a break for sound transmission. The innards are stuffed with FG.
I would like to blow celluslose into the ceilings though as some sounds appear to travel via that route... only in certain suites. Plus there are ceiling mounted speakers in all the units which is an invitation for noise troubles (both outgoing and incoming).
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Edited 4/9/2007 4:35 pm ET by PeteDraganic
>I've pondered the cellulouse but am hesitiant because it may settle, attract moisture, and so on. The foam would expand and hopefully cling in order to dampen sounds.I'll defer to others, but my impression is that it'd be easier to end up with voids with the foam kit (I've used a kit and they're crude compared to the professional rigs I've seen), than with the cellulose. In an enclosed cavity, foam can form a dam that prevents new foam from getting into the void that's created, but you won't be able to see this happening. Mike and others have enough experience with cellulose to comment on avoiding voids, settling, and moisture. In this application, I'd be surprised if they were a problem.Good luck.
also wondering if filling the frames with foam would deaden other potential tranmissions of sound
Might, but, the curtain wall people also use the "empty space" in those frames as a drainage area, too. Which voids? Shoot, you almost have to have the shop drawings, sometimes.
But, you are spot on on how noisy some curtainwalls are. I wish I knew of a method to quiet them; but short of reglazing . . . <shrugs>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
These are typical assmebly like you might find in a storefront... aluminum thermal-break mullions.
The only drainage I could imagine would be merely the weeping or drainage of condensation or the occassional permeation of water/rain perhaps.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
like you might find in a storefront... aluminum thermal-break mullions
So, there's an internal, screw-on glass stop? And, this only runs in the wall between floors, correct? That could be a good deal, you might could (if building owner ok's it) upgrade to stouter glass. Not cheap, but not impossible, either. Those frames, though can be hard to get foam into, though. Well, crud, can't find the detail I wanted to attach.
Way better than curtain wall bolted to the building structure, and with long long runs of vertical mullions carrying entire walls to "share" sounds across that diaphram.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
3/4 inch sleepers about 16" apart.
Seems I recall even the minimal expanding foam still expands some as it dries.
Is there a non-expanding foam available?
Seems like playing with fire in that tight of an area with a potential to deform the wood floor in the event of a miscalculation.
then yer be in a heap of foam doodoo
Parolee # 53804