Installing Recessed Lighting in Old Hous
I’m planning to install some 4″ and 5″ recessed cans in my 1926 house. I have good attic access, etc.
I presume that I’ll install the remodel fixtures, but have some questions.
The ceilings are faced with sheet rock, but I suspect that there is lath and plaster behind the 1/4″ sheetrock. Should I plan the install any different than regular sheetrock? What about the trim, etc?
How does one cut the holes for the cans? Do they have some large hole-saw contraption? Do you just use a regular jig saw?
Finally, as I look at fixture options I see flourescent, low voltage, line level and halogen options… are the latter (line level & halogens) just different bulbs one puts in the same fixture? Flourescents are out because I can’t dim them..and want that….
Any recommendations regarding brands, compatible dimmers, etc?
Does anyone have a recommendation of a good book/article on installing recessed lighting?
Thanks in advance!
Replies
One of these days I am going to write an article "9 1/2 Reasons why recessed lights are a bad idea". In your case though, they would not be appropriate to a 1926 house.
Among the other issues are poor light geometry, puncturing the ceiling barrier and the fact that, to look at any of them, they are pure flimsy junk. They are basically a current designer's fad. Whatever happened to Avocado appliances? How long will granite countertops be in fashion?
They are hard to install. Ceiling joists may interfere with the layout and may have to be moved [sez the designer]. They trap heat so small, low wattage bulbs must be used = less light = more must be used = more $.
Avoid them at all costs. And if a customer insists, charge an arm and a gamb and offer no guarantees except that they will eventually leak.
~Peter, Electrical Editor for Seventeen Magazine
"They are hard to install."
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Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What kind of lighting do you like?
Disregard what Frankie wrote. :) Plaster will chew up an ordinary hole saw in two holes.
I like chandeliers with lots of crystals. Maybe a strobe or a lava lamp.
As an electrician, the easiest system is a bunch of extension cords, three way splitters and clamp on lights with those curly florescent bulbs.
Actually I ran into one light fixture [luminaire, to be politically correct] that was intelligently designed. It was a wall mount floodlight. You first mounted the base and it it had keyholes. Then added the ballast and other guts. Then the reflector and the bulb and finally the lens cover which I think included a chain. The brand name might have been something like "Stoner" but I forget. Every lighting designer should be forced by law to install one of their creations, single handed, by themselves, from an extension ladder 20 feet up a blank concrete wall. Installability would be substanally be improved.
One time we received a batch of parking lot lights. Each one included the bulb but the bulb was not installed in the socket but still wrapped in the cardboard sleeve. We screwed them in an tried to close the cover/lens and the lens hit the bulb and couldn't close. The bulb was too big but nobody tried it out.
Lighting is the nadir of the electrical field. Now they even print, "Caution: Sharp Edges" on the cartons. There is a constant battle between the marketing department and engineering. "Can't you make the metal any thinner?" "But if we make it any thinner, it will be Reynold's Wrap and won't be stiff enough to slice open electrician's fingers".
Actually, the best fixture is a keyless, porcelein fixture. Able to provide illumination of the ceiling, resists heat, simple to install and understand, reliable and cheap -- about one dollar. Also uses standard bulbs as well as the screw in conpact florescents.
~Peter, Home Handyman feature writer for Cosmopolitan magazine
That was great. I'm glad I asked.
This being 1926, wall sconces and chandeliers are the period appropriate ideas. Look around for sconce boxes that were plastered over in later remodels. This was also the era of black pipe, so if you have it, pulling in new wires can be quite easy. Check with a rare earth magnet or metal detecting Zircom stud finder.
-- J.S.
I owned and lived in a 1937 farmhouse once.
The dining room had been done over in the ....60's I think, and was a crass conglomeration of this & that. There was a toggle switch on the wall that was still hot, but went to....who knows where. Finally the day came to redo the DR, and so I took my halogen and held it at the sharpest angle I could around the DR along the walls about 6' high to undo my suspicion. There they were. Three of them, all at the same height. The distinct outline of the 2"x4" boxes played itself through the plaster, the paint and the years, and with a couple swift blows from the straight claw of my 20 oz., I found myself instantly wired up to mount some period sconces around the room. They hadn't even cut the loop, everything was just set to go. All some schwoogie plasterer did was wad up some old newsprint and throw in a trowel full of neat to each box.
I found the right sconces and used Moore's Historic Color line for both wall and trim. One would walk into the room and always linger silently to breathe in the opulence, the real plaster walls, the long straight quartersawn oak floor boards, The 10' cielings with the 5" crown, the rippled glass nine over nines. My great great something's Victorian cherry table became the centerpiece for many a family spread while the hue of warm light splashed across the old renewed walls many times into the wee hours. The Seth Thomas would faithfully announce from the mantel that time was on our side, and it seemed in those days that it all would never end. Leave the dishes 'till morning as we slowly laugh our way up to the beds. There was balance within as we swayed through the summer years.
The knee kickers are grown and about gone, and we all live somewhere else now. I'm selling the table in the Fall but keeping the clock. Seth still understands and waits for me.
Those were good good years, and I wonder if they have kept the sconces up.
If you've got too thick a ceiling with drywall and lath and plaster, and you have attic access, you'd be better off with regular housings rather than remodels. The slides on the remodels can only go so far on ceiling thickness.
Get a sealed can (energy star or equivalent), one compatible with contact to insulation.
While some will lament the light given off, poor seal etc, they really are a nice source of illlumination for many. Think it through, plan closely and make an educated decision.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
"Get a sealed can (energy star or equivalent), one compatible with contact to insulation."Those are two different specs.The one compatable with insulation contact is labled "IC" for insulation contact.The air sealed ones are called Air Tight and will often have AT in the part number. AFAIK all AT's are also IC.Also with AT you have to check and see if a special trim ring is needed or not.If the ceiling is just DW (which can be verified from the ceiling) and it can be cut with just a DW jab saw.
A rotozip with the circle attachment cuts very nice circles in plaster, but whadda mess! Use the vaccum attachment and make two passes. One with a carbide bit for the plaster, then again with a wood bit for the lathe.
Really a pita, but it does cut very nice circles.
Besides a rotary tool, another way to do it is with a hole saw on a drill. A shortcut for containing the mess can be found here. Do a search for "basketball".I agree that recessed lights do not look right in an old house, but sometimes the alternatives are not very good either. Since houses before about 1920 or so may not have had electricity at all, no light will be historical accurate except a gas light. And you don't want to install one of those. And I agree that if you are going to install them and have access from the attic, go with the new construction mounts. The spring clips for old work ones lose their spring and the units slip out.Table and floor lamps often look the best, but are not always practical.School House Electric has some interesting lights, and are not too expensive.http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/
Dimmable flourescents are available.........
Disregard what PM22 wrote.
Yes, you should use remodeling units.
You may/ will have difficulty if you run into wood lath and plaster. It's harder but not impossible.
With such big fixtures, you wil be able to stick your hand in the hole and break off the lath as needed. i think 1/4" GWB is too thin. If that's what you have, you may be able to keep and use the plaster lath assembly.
By a hole saw of the appropriate size if you are doing more than 1 fixture. the will cut through the GWB, the plaster and the lath in a uniform manner. It will go dull faster than if onlt cutting through wood, but so what - you are using it for light fixture installation.
I prefer the 4" or 3" units. If you want to go with 4" or 5" units that's fine. Halo has some nice units as does Cooper Lighting (same parent co.). The LV light is bluer/ cooler too, and therefore not as warm. You may want that effect; maybe not. A variety of trims are also available for each.
Wiring for LV units and regular voltage units is the same - provided each LV unit has a transformer in it. The fixtures are available with integral transformers and remote transformers. Get the ones with integral transformers. It's just easier.
LV fixtures require dif dimmers which are also a bit more expensive - sometimes double. Lutron is a popular and very available brand.
Hope this helps,
Frankie
Exasperate your vegetables until exhausted; disturb your chestnuts in milk until queasy, then disappoint.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
If the ceiling thinkness is over 1.5" I would buy the grill assemblies that bring the light fixture closer to the opening. The stock socket bracket in the can does not allow enough adjustment for thicker ceilings and the stock grills are usually cheap and attach with coil springs. The spring clips work better.