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I’m an engineer with the NAHB Research Center in Maryland. I am writing a report for PCA and HUD about the disaster resistance of ICF homes. I’m having a bit of trouble finding information on ICF homes that have actually survived floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, and hurricanes. If you know of an ICF home which has survived any of these natural disasters, please contact me. Thanks.
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New to this board.... so go easy guys. Thinking of departing conventional stick framing and foundation for my next project and need some feed back on using Insulated Concrete Forms and Structural Insulated Panels. All the manufactures are quick to love them, but need some real world feed back before diving in! The good the bad and the ugly of it all. Thanks- MG
*Hello Michael, We have been building with ICF's for 5 years.We feel the advantages more than justify the additional cost. There are however some pitfalls you should be aware of, no one system is perfect for every application. Research the ones that make the most sense for your project and location. Hire a qualified installer. Most people think ICF's are easy because they stack like leggo blocks. They are not! Go and inspect some of the jobs. Make sure they are straight, plumb and square. Once poured it is difficult to remedy mistakes. Do not fall into the trap believing that the cheapest up front foam cost will mean a total lower cost for the project. Some of the cheapest foam turns into the most expensive to use in the end. Most of the systems work, but it takes more labor to make some of the systems work. ICF's are consumer driven. Most builders are not interested in changing the way they do things. There are people who want a better built home and are willing to pay for it. Target them and forget the rest. Go to icfweb.com for more information on all ICF systems.
*Norman, would you mind listing the brands of ICF you've had the best results with, and why?We'll be building on the Oregon coast in a few years and, as I said in a "stucco" post, I've concluded after a fair amount of research that ICF walls and SIP roofs make a whole lot of sense. I'm still looking for particulars (best way to handle wall/roof juncture, additional ceiling framing to handle mechanicals, etc), as well as pros and cons from people who've had experience
*Michael,I am starting an ICF house in about a month. Here are my observations: Find a local supplier and ask to visit his jobsites. Good local experience is worth alot. I apprenticed with a local ICF-only builder and feel very confident about stacking block myself and having him pump it. My local rep has been in the ICF business since its infancy and is extremely knowledgeable. I will be using Therm-o-wall, a six or eight inch waffle-grid block. Saves concrete, no assembly, no metal to cut in the block. Ever cut steel studs without a chop box? Loud and obnoxious. As for the argument that the snap together systems save on shipping, well, you pay for it in extra bracing and assembly. Use a good footer system, like Form-A-Drain, and make it LEVEL!! If you're doing it yourself, invest in turnbuckles for tweaking the walls plumb. Consider taking the ICF's all the way to the rafters. The thick walls on the main floors provide wonderful windowsill opportunities, unattainable otherwise. Plan on whole house ventilation; this will be an extremely tight house. Venmar out of Canada makes an excellent product that I have used on other projects. Enjoy.
*Aaron this Venmar , forms or venting device? Norman , Do you know of any company that makes 4x8 paneltype icf spacers simular to the Rforms spacRtys? Since I built / poured my house I have had a few people ask about that type of ICF. Mike , jim and Aaron , I think that you would be happier with forms that have plastic tys rather than steel and the thermal bridge it promotes. Level footing is a must and form a drain would be nice ,I used 2x12 to form my footings. the turnbuckles are a good investment.
*The forms we have had the best results with have been GREENBLOCK and AMVIC. The main reason is that the ties are 5" o.c. in GREENBLOCK and 6" o.c. in AMVIC. This helps eliminate the need for any special bracing. The closeness of the ties also eliminates waste. You can use almost every bit of foam no matter how small. We were GREENBLOCK distributors for almost five years and installed over 100,000 sq.ft. last year. We have been involved with AMVIC since the start of it's development. Since you are planning to build in Oregon these products might prove to be too costly due to shipping.(email me for a quote on AMVIC) Check into American Conform and Quadlock. Both of these companies have a strong presence in your area. I do not have any direct experience with these systems, but one of my installers used both and seemed to like them. You might also check into FORMTEC. This block must be assembled. We have used it and it works OK. The draw backs are making the corners, endless taping around corners and window bucks and a lot of waste. The other 3 systems we used are INTEGRASPEC, BLUEMAXX and we helped on an ECO BlOCK project. I guess the best thing I can say is that every system will work if you know the little quirks and what to watch out for. We prefer to keep it simple and use systems that are as close to idiot proof as possible. In this regard GREENBLOCK and AMVIC are way out in front.Finally to answer Don's question. Thermoformed uses 4'X 8' panels with metal stud track and foam webs to tie the foam together. We have a dealer in Dallas, but I have not really given the system a hard look.
*michael:Will you the builder or owner of the proposed ICF/SIP house?
*I agree with all of the above. If you are planning on building in Oregon (my former home) Try contacting Ed Burke at Concrete Special Ties in Portland, 503 661 2350 for info on Quad-Lock forms. The combination of SIP and ICF is great. We have put several together. Don on the Ties, try looking at the Referee system's ties, or Global tech, they may work. There is another system that is similar to R-Forms, but they use a composite for the part that goes through the wall and it is very expensive. I tried to find info on it so I could give you a name, but couldn't locate it.
*Ian, that wouldn't be Composite Technologies Corp. from Ames Iowa by any chance would it ? The one with the HDpolyethylene button that screws on to the conecting rod.
*Hi Don, Ian is not ignoring you. He went to the world of concrete early to build a booth for Schwing concrete pumps. He'll be back after the show.
*Hi Norman , Just looked into this post today the computer was to slow for me so I just went back to working on my house. Why arn't you puting up a display at the show also?
*Don, We just finished the International Home Builders Show in Dallas. We did not have time to prepare for the World of concrete.
*There were a handful of ICF systems displayed at the recent Seattle Home Show. ICF homes I've visited are so solid, they should still be standing in 500yrs. This places them above "palatial" quality in my mind. Some of them tried to advertise them as "cost saving" which I disagree with. One firm said you'd save $120/mo on heating bills but my heating bill with standard 2x6 averages only $50 so they are simply incorrect. If their target customers are people who want to "save money", their marketing misses the boat entirely as to the reasons people want this type of home.
*Don: The name you mention is familiar, the one I was trying to dig up escapes me, but the system uses a two part tie, there is a tie that fits through a slot cut in a 4 x 8 sheet of foam, Thickness is up to you, the tie is flat on each end and diamond in the center, the flat ends have a slot cut into them that a plastic triangle fits into to keep the panel from coming off. The system was designed for basements in the late 70's. They promoted stripping the inside foam so that visual inspection of the concrete could be made and so that no thermal barriers had to be added in an unfinished basement. The outside foam remained for insulation. The company only sold ties and a template for you to make a router guide out of hardboard for cutting the slots in the foam. The system worked well if you knew what to do. I think the guys marketing it started promoting lite form or something. The system could be prefabricated in 4 x 8 panels, set on a footing, run the bar through it, cut the corner and brace it with a double 2 x 6,or built like conventional forms, one face, then bar and close it up...similar to WTF. They promoted a ladder brace for the top of the wall for scaffold etc. It was inexpensive last I remember. I think they were limited to midwest basements, which ultimately lead to their demise...I think. If I find some info, I will let you know. If you find a system that is a cross between diamond snap and liteform with a tap in triangle, that will be the system.
*Darrell: The systems will ultimately save money, so they are right to a degree. Most of the people that seek ICF construction have taken the time to educate themselves about the benefits....If everyone relied on the sometimes overselling "professionals" that sell ICF's, I think that there would be a shortage of used car salesmen. Check out the site that Norman mentioned earlier... http://WWW.ICFWEB.com You can find some accurate info there. Ian
*Ian, I never saw or heard of the type form you just mentioned. Liteform did not apeal to me ,with all the cutting of the foam. I liked the Rforms because it took onlt 18 holes to a sheet. I even built a gang drill todrill 3 holes at a time and a jig that held both sheets and spaced the holes. Ido like the "lego" type of ICF now that I have seen them in action , they go up fast and don't require all the bracing that Rforms do.
*I'm an engineer with the NAHB Research Center in Maryland. I am writing a report for PCA and HUD about the disaster resistance of ICF homes. I'm having a bit of trouble finding information on ICF homes that have actually survived floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, and hurricanes. If you know of an ICF home which has survived any of these natural disasters, please contact me. Thanks.
*Don,Venmar makes energy recovery ventilators (ERV's). Very well made, quiet, and simple to add to existing FA ducting. I use Therm-o-wall ICF forms with the plastic web. The shipping volume is well worth the reduced labor in any on-the-job form assembly. Can't imagine doing that. http://www.venmarvent.com/Aaron
*Jessie, You ought to talk with either Jim Niehoff or Lionel LeMay at the Portland Cement Association. You may want to post on ICFWEB as well.
*Is anybody familiar with Fold Form? (Foldform.com)The rep here in Colorado presents a good case for using that system including hands on support for me - the owner/builder. He sent a small sample section of the product and it looks great - very strong, internal ties that result in a smooth surface - no exposed ties. It's a Lego style product with dove tail ends on each 1 x 4 panel. They come pre-assembled, you open them out and lay in place. They also rep Certainteed's footing form with integral drain/radon extraction system. That looks good as well. Any input on these?Thanks!Peter
*Peter,I am not familiar with either product, but I can tell you that "hands on support" is extremely valuable if this is your first time working with ICF's. I recenly used Diamond SnapForms for the fist time. The foundation turned out great, but I wasted a lot of time learning to work with them and over bracing due to lack of experience. Consider this when comparing brands.Good Luck,Jerry