Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 28, 2000 04:31am | #1

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   Based upon its age, this house probably has boards for sheathing beneath the exterior siding (clapboards?) or none at all. I can't think of a good reason to remove any sheathing boards in order to insulate the walls. I'd probably take the opportunity of removing the outside whatever and blowing cellulose insulation into the wall cavities. Then a layer of foam (another R-3 to R-5, depending) could be under the final exterior siding, all dependent upon how this relates to existing dimensions.

   I think that many of Fred's questions are important to the overall house situation, but not necessarily to your immediate question. His first three are probably most cogent.

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   Guest_ | Feb 29, 2000 12:43am | #2

   *Another issue with old houses is that the bays between the studs may well not be one of the standard sizes of insulation, in which case you might have to get extra wide and then rip it to size. Which is both wasteful and a real pain. I think a blown in cellulose is probably a better choice. It can be done from the inside too. But if you have it done: a) tell me how it goes; and b) make sure there is a way to detect if the bay is fully filled. Blown in cellulose can get caught on the plaster keys and not fill the bay all the way.

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   David_Blake | Feb 29, 2000 05:06am | #3

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   To answer Fred's questions; I'm in southern New England and the house is the basic Italianate style that was popular in this area at that time. Balloon framed storey and a half with studs 16" oc. This siding is the original pine clapboard and the underlying coatings appear to have been failing for awhile. The sheathing underneath is 1x pine. The chimney is centered and the heat is HW baseboard. Full basement with cement floor with dry-laid stone foundation and some groundwater encroachment due to a high water table. My simplistic thinking was to remove the lead-laced (I assume but should test it anyways) clapboard, sheathing and then replace the knob and tube wiring. When this was done, put up a vapor barrier between the studs followed by the insulation and resheath, housewrap and re-side. I know it is a lot of work. Too much work?
   Dave

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   Guest_ | Feb 29, 2000 04:15pm | #4

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   David:

   One thing you will want to be sure to address no matter what you decide to insulate with is the free passage of air through the ballon framed walls into the attic. Most ballon framing has the rafter plates up above the attic ceiling, creating chimneys into the attic out of every stud bay.

   Is this a flat-roofed Italianate or does it have an accesable attic space?

   As to the clapboards: I would think twice about replacing hundred-year-old claps made of very good wood with the pulp that passes for lumber now. Old-growth pine clapboards are far mor durable than any current wood claps. I've seen them sitting on the ground for a hundred years and still sound. Abating the lead paint isn't that big of a deal. Basically it involves spreading a plastic skirt around the house and catching the falling chips, rolling it up and bringing it to the landfill. Check with the state for your local regs.

   Steve

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   Guest_ | Feb 29, 2000 10:32pm | #5

   *David,Many years ago I owned a 2.5 storey, balloon famed house from the last century. I chose to have bead insulation blown into the walls to try to save on heat bills. It did help but it also caused two headaches:1. the windows were double hung with old, heavy counterweights. Those weight chanels were open on the top so I had to open every window chanel and attempt to plug the insulation up in the top of the chanel with a wad of fiberglass.2. the attic was lath and plaster on the sloping ceilings. Those chanels didn't get properly insulated so there was a real tendency for the snow on the roof to melt and build up ice dams on the eaves. This was Minnesota winter weather. I endured raking the snow for one winter and then, because of a job change, I sold and moved.Hope this helps.http:www.rwoodcarver.com

4. 
   David_Blake | Mar 01, 2000 12:49am | #6

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   Steve - The roof pitch is 12/12 with an accessible attic. The eaves are ~1 foot. After the previous owner painted over the water damage from a previous ice dam, I started pulling the attic floor insulation back away from the eaves. Now I've got good air flow. The claps are beat, but I agree with you about the old growth pine. You all are strongly suggesting I blow in insulation, strip the claps to bare wood and then repaint (replacing the split and broken claps.) Thanks for the help.

5. 
   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 12:58am | #7

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   alkyd primer...latex top coats...Penetral(Flood product available at Sherwin Williams) areas of bare wood that are dried out like window sills, lots of quick coats is fine....2000 to 2200 psi pressure washers are great if you carfully use them and allow all to dry...use before cellulose is blown in...

   near the stream,

   aj

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 06:29am | #8

   *... sounds like you want to get rid of the knob and tube wiring?? if that is a goal, or one of your goals.. then I would gut from the inside, rewire (and check your plumbing) put up new blueboard , blow your cellulose, and skim coat the walls with plaster.. then go out and make repairs and repaint your exterior...going to be cheaper and better .. and you can do it in stages..b but hey, whadda I know

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   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 04:27pm | #9

   *David,Do you know if the walls are back-plastered on the inside? That's where there is an intermediate layer of lath and plaster between the sheathing and the interior lath and plaster. Not common practice, but not unusual either. It can affect your decision here.Mike,Gotta disagree with you on gutting from the inside. One thing that really distinguishes an old house that *feels* old from an old house that doesn't is whether the original plaster is intact. I am always aesthetically disappointed by a house that's been gutted and resurfaced on the inside. Plus, David has stated his desire to retain the plaster.Steve

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   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 05:57pm | #10

   *.....I'm getting mixed signals... he wants to replace the wiring or not?and the lath and plaster has "been repaired" whatever that means..strictly on a cost basis.. if he's rewiring, it's going to be better to gut the inside..and as far as plaster goes....either it looks old and cracked and patched and wavy.... or it looks like plaster... my plasterers can duplicate almost any existing finish.. wether its skip troweled,,, sand, smooth....so spend a lot of money on the siding and get a half -assed rewire job, or gut the interior and restore the interior finish to whatever period of the house's history you want...David can sit down with a spread sheet and figure it out...

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 06:03pm | #11

   *.....I'm getting mixed signals... he wants to replace the wiring or not?and the lath and plaster has "been repaired" whatever that means..strictly on a cost basis.. if he's rewiring, it's going to be better to gut the inside..and as far as plaster goes....either it looks old and cracked and patched and wavy.... or it looks like plaster... my plasterers can duplicate almost any existing finish.. wether its skip troweled,,, sand, smooth....so spend a lot of money on the siding and get a half -assed rewire job, or gut the interior and restore the interior finish to whatever period of the house's history you want...David can sit down with a spread sheet and figure it out...

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 07:45pm | #12

   *If he wants to rewire he can do it without removing all the plaster (just takes longer and uses more fishing tools). He would just have to cut some grooves in the plaster for hard to reach places (sometimes you can hide this behind the large mouldings found in older houses.If he wants to add insulation he really ought to make sure no knob and tube wiring is in the outside walls. Then blow in cellulouse. No need to gut the plaster OR remove the ouside sheathing (even if he is replacing the siding).The cellulouse will not need a vapor barrier in the walls as much as fiberglass would due to its natural ability to prevent air flow(which fiberglass lacks).I suggest that David get a real comforable chair and search the archives - lots of reading on this topic...

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 11:38pm | #13

   *I'm with Norm on this one. (Surprise). Save plaster and siding, re-wire via fishing, blow cells (gotta be dense-packed though).Now you've not paid for siding, not paid for plastering, paid a little more for rewiring via fishing, got a superior insulation product, and eliminated all the chimneys to the attic with the densepack.Like you say Mike, run the spreadsheet and I think you'll see which is less expensive and saves all the historic fabric to boot.As for plaster, I like it wavy and lumpy. I like the view through my glass distorted and my floors full of nicks and dings. I just like an old house to feel old. I actually have mixed feelings about "restored" old houses. They usually make me sad because the history usually gets wiped away. I much prefer "preserved" old houses. A rare and precious glimpse of the real deal. But I know others don't feel that way.Steve

6. 
   David_Blake | Mar 02, 2000 03:19am | #14

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   I do want to rewire and retain the plaster. It was skim coated just 10 yrs ago and looks real good. While my spreadsheet says that labor and materials make it cheaper to gut from the inside to insulate and wire, the initial goal was to take care of the siding. Since that would have been one more cheap layer to go through to get to the stud bays to re-wire and insulate, I turned to you folks to keep me from doing something structurally and functionally poor. All of you have made me look real hard at the siding to re-evaluate if it is good enough to save. Your main points have been to make the job easy and as inexpensive as possible while maintaining the architectural and historical integrity of the house (which I want to do). With that said, the majority of you have pointed me to strippin' and fishin' and blowin'. It ain't sexy or fun, but it does what all of you have pointed out.
   BTW, There is no intermediate lath and plaster or plumbing in the outside walls.
   Dave

7. 
   Guest_ | Mar 02, 2000 03:31am | #15

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   On behalf of amateurs everywhere I'd like to add my opinion, Dave.

   Have you considered using Icynene insulation? It's a water-based expanding foam that appears to have remarkable qualities. When I renovate my kitchen (currently uninsulated - the house was built in 1928) I plan to have a contractor apply it. Check their web site if interested at http://www.icynene.com.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 02, 2000 03:15pm | #17

   *...Dave.. thanks for the follow up.. so man times we post here and never find out what happens..have fun, Mike

8. 
   David_Blake | Mar 02, 2000 03:15pm | #16

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   Stupid question...I'm residing and would like to insulate my 1885 house. If I also plan on replacing the sheathing, can I just put batts of insulation in place and close it back up? If I do this, what about the vapor barrier for the interior side of the wall. The lath and plaster was repaired before I got here and don't want to wreck it.