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I’ve been subscribed to Fine Homebuilding for almost 10 years now and both enjoy and rely on the information greatly for my construction and renovation projects. I am not a professional builder, although I did take a year off work to build a home on spec successfully about seven years ago. I hope someone can help me with my current situation. Never tried this online chat discussion group, but have been impressed with how friendly and helpful people seem to be with requests for help. Here is my situation as short and clear as possible:
The situation
We have an old (post war) veteran’s one and a half [2X4 stick] which desperately needs more insulation and we’re not big on the look of the outside We live near Ottawa (Ontario, Canada), so winter’s a bit of a … well … you can imagine!
I am looking to insulate and redo the exterior at the same time and was strongly considering horizontal bracing + reframing window openings + extruded polystyrene rigid insulation + house wrap or tar paper + stained cedar board & batten (or maybe Tongue & groove). I have had decent success with Behr stain products.
I’m leaving out some details here, but my fear is that I am omitting something major (likely). I’ve had one friend tell me to make sure I actually seal all edges and seams of the insulation or not bother at all insulating. I’m OK with that concept in general. I’ve had a contractor tell me it is better tearing off the entire existing stucco exterior (it’s made to look like brick) and start from scratch. Sounded the way he said it that he never re-layed anything on an old exterior before, so I am not 100% confident about his advice. Lastly, I was told that I should make sure the house can still “breathe”. Now that puzzles me a bit, given I doubt I will be automatically creating an R2000 home with my approach. Although I am sensitive to air circulation and quality and have no problem considering adding an air exchanger if this was worthwhile.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated by you folks.
Best Regards,
JM Dupont
Replies
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what do you have for insulation now ?what's inside the walls ?
how thick is the stucco ?
what's under the stucco ?
what's the roof detail like ?
are you going to replace the windows or just extend the trim ?
*JM, with the extreme changes in temperature around here and given that the temp. was 0 degree C today and changing to -20 in the next couple of days, I think that you would be well advised to rethink your plan of attack.Take one side at a time, strip the existing stucco off the wall, remove the exterior boards, clean out the wall cavities, do any re-wiring that you may want, spray foam the cavity, cover with sheating ply, cover with felt paper and finally finish with board and batten if you wish.Gabe
*Any tips on how to strip the stucco? Sounds like a huge job.
*Thanks to Mike for calling me on the lack of details, I was not sure how much detail to write and to the others for their two cents (including Gabe suggesting I start from scratch).Here's a bit more info:Current insulation: 50 year old craft paper backed wool I believe which I suspect has shifted somewhat downwards (but maybe not too much). 2x4 standard stick construction.Stucco molded somehow to look like brick and I would say it's about a good inch and a half thick at least.Not sure what's under the stucco, likely not great plywood given age of the home (post war vet development).Standard 10/12 pitch simple as pie roof. But with an extended shed dormer in the back (so some walls there too).Already started replacing windows over the last few years and assumed I would frame them out as much as I needed to, flash themproperly, etc (with someone who knows what he is doing).As you can probably tell, I was assuming I could just go right on top with rigid extruded styrene, maybe seal the joints (especially between the horizontal bracing and the rigid foam), then throw some tar paper on top before I put up the stained Board and batten cedar. Would this be causing many potential headaches? I just assumed it would be quicker, easier, cheaper and less mess than stripping the whole stucco off, removing whatever structural sheathing is there, re-insulating, re-sheathing and re-siding.Keep the comments coming. You're already a lot of help.Best,JM Dupont
*jm... if that is cement stucco..it may be the second hardest substance know to man..we worked on one .. cutting new windows in..,etc..studs...building felt....lath .. then the one inch stucco.. in some places framing had dropped, but the stucco took over the structural load.. anyways..bottom line... other than the insulation problem.. do you like the appearance of the stucco ? if you do..leave it... and work from the inside..either open up the walls and rewire and replumb while you're at it... or leave them and blow the walls with cellulose right on top of the old batts.. it ain't elegant.. but i bet if you start taking the stucco off .. there won't be anything there...major work....or .. remove the wall board,remove the insulation.. rewire , replumb.. put up blue board.. have cellulose blown in and then skim-coat plaster..we do a lot of that in remodeling old houses..they blow the walls thru a 1 inch hole, put a beadboard foam plug in, spackle the plug.. and the skim-coat plaster covers all...
*Here's the rub Mike. We really *do not* like the look of the stucco and to be honest, adding cedar B&B was always in our mind since we bought this place ... insulating while we were at it came as a second thought... thus this approach I am suggesting.I think what I need to know the most is are we asking for trouble just throwing up styrene insulation, then tar paper, then the B&B? Gabe (above) hinted at trouble, but did not expand on it. Are we talking serious lack of air circulation all of a sudden?(I doubt that)Will I have condensation probelms? That kinda thing.Again, I appreciate your thinking on this folks.
*if you can blow the walls with cellulose it shouldn't be a problem.. if teh stucco is as hard as i think it may be.. you're going to beat your brais out trying to fasten thru it...pick a section and do a test....try nailing thru it.. or ramsetting thru it.. my office is cement block.. we recut the window openings, put in new windows and PT bucks.. then we ramset PT furring to it @ 16 oc.. blocked out our corners and casings and hung 1x6 clapboard.. i'd do the same today.. except today it would be fibercement instead of red cedar...
*Hi Roger,Use a quick cut saw with a masonry blade and scribe lines 1/2 to 3/4 inches deep to cut through the expanded metal. Make vertical cuts about 1 to 2 feet apart and then use a pinch bar or wrecking bar to separate it from the boards.I'm guessing at this point, that given the age of the house and location, that it has a layer of 1 inch boards under the stucco.Use a dust mask or water it down.Gabe
*JM, the faux brick that you're describing is quiet common on some of the NCC properties in Ottawa. Some was done on regular stucco but most was done with a cement mix over masonry walls.One of the NCC garages had some of the best detailed work I have ever seen.I know it sounds like a lot of work, but it's acually easier to strip it clean and start over. The end product will also be more stable.Gabe
*jm... just in case you're confused...i agree with gabe on this....i don't think you will have a lot of success trying to furr the stucco...it's not the same thing as furring a cement block structure...so.. if you don't like it.. take it off.. but first try a test section of it.. maybe you'll come up with a better solution...
*Despite trying to convince myself that I should go over the stucco, it seems like a consensus is emerging regarding stripping everything off. To answer at least one of the last questions (raised by Mike I think), inthe hopes that my first option may still have a chance ... I have in fact tested firing a piece of PT 2X4 just to see if I could with one of those Remington "shots" and I had some trouble pulling it off. And Ididn't even saw a horizontal channel to look for the vertical wall studs. This led me to believe that it would be stable enough Gabe.OK, so where are we then on this? I guess the group wisdom seems to be to tear everything off isn't it? Not something I wanted to do, but if you really think that's best, could I oblige you guys for just a little longer and confirm that it would be enough for me to:1) Tear the darn stuff off;2) Blow insulation in the walls (would appreciate advise on what to use here too!);3) Lay tar paper or house wrap (let's not start the debate aboutwhichone's better againhere or I'll never leave you guys alone!) ;-)4) Nail 1X3 horizontal furring;5) Nail on the cedar (I know, I know... stained on all 8 edges right?)You guys have been really helpful so far by the way (even though you are not letting me take what I thought was the easier way out).Best,JM Dupont
*jm...((one of those Remington "shots" and I had some trouble pulling it off.))then leafe it on,, put up the tar paper, do you furring..b extend all your trimput on your board and batten...blow densepak cellulose into the walls, either ""as-is"" or after gutting the walls and rewiring..this is your decision.. and it 's an economic one..around here.. the resale market will support almost any renovation... if your's will too, then buy the whole hog.. if it won't do your thing..b but hey, whadda i no ?
*I still think that you have 1" boards under your stucco which would supported by both the age, location, style and a nail shot into it would be resistant to pulling out.If you cover over the stucco, with our weather, you may be asking for trouble. By nailing on the strapping, you will fracture the stucco in a thousand places. This will allow moisture and subsequently, condensation problems.What is possible and easy structurally, may not what is best for the house.But like Mike said, it's your call.Gabe
*I just want to thank you all (Mike and Gabe esp.) for your input. Who said discussion groups are going the way of the dodo? You've been very helpful and patient. If I do in fact go with myfirst option (still undecided) I'll ponder carefully Gabe's suggestion that I might be fracturing the stucco and encouraging moisture infiltration and condensation.Good of Luck with your endeavours as well.Best,JM DupontP.S. Shoudl anyone else have any thoughts to add, would love to hear from you.
*"Nail on the cedar (I know, I know... stained on all 8 edges right?)"Most wood that I have seen comes with 6 faces and 12 edges. Personally, I would stain the 6 faces, and let the edges come along for the ride.(Sorry......the devil made me do this!! )
*I have been following this thread and I think if you want to avoid taking the stucco off you have one other option to fur it out. You can drill and screw the furring strips. Almost certainly you have 3/4" sheathing under the stucco so it should hold just fine. You will still have thousands of penetrations through the stucco but no fractures. Carefull attention to details and flashings should let you have a good dry instalation. Personally, I would never tear off stucco for what I get for putting it on.
*come on JM.. cut a hole in the wall board and tell us what's BEHIND the stucco...
*All right all right Mike... gimme a day and I'll get back to you on this.ThanksJM
*JM,Ten years ago I "outsulated" a brick bungalow in Colorado. We affixed two layers of flat 2x4's over the brick, first layer vertical, second layer horizontal, then 2-1/2" of sprayed polyurethane foam, tar paper, and cedar board and batten, pre-treated all 6 sides. Ten years and it still works like a charm. I like the idea of screwing instead of shooting to the stucco. With Tapcons and glue, you will be solid even if no sheathing. Also, the house is a lot stronger with the stucco on it than off. Another advantage is no weather exposure and no inside disruption if you skin over the house. If you plan to strip it off, Gabe's one side at a time idea bears looking into.The most critical element in extending the windows is the sill detail. The new sill needs to slope away from the window, be sealed to the old sill, and run past your new siding with a drip edge at least 1/4" past the face of the battens. Assuming you have decent roof overhangs, everything else will be easy once the sill extenders are handled skillfully.Bill
*Am running off to a meeting, but thought I'd check in real quick to mention (to Mike especially), that there seems to be nothing but this old 3/4 inch or so cardboard-like sheathing under the stucco (sorry, that name excapes me at the moment). Same stuff that was on the old garage I re-sided a couple of years back (in cedar B&B as well). Does this make any sense?As for Bill's recent posting, now I am really scrwed given that was probably the advice I was lookign for in the first place. I suspect I could go either way and am not just waiting for people to tell me what I want to hear. I totally understand Gabe and Mike's position and suggestions.Must run. Any last thoughts anyone? Thansk again.Best,JM
*JM, Here's one idea: 1. Drill holes through stucco/sheathing and blow densepack cellulose.2. Apply layer of No. 15 felt or tyvek (taped) over stucco.3. Install p.t. 2x4s vertically on studlines (using screws, with predrilling as necessary, so as not to disturb stucco)4. Install 1" polyisocyanurate insulation between 2x4s.5. Install boards, battens & trim as desired.Be sure to include flashings and bug screens as needed over windows, doors and at the base of wall areas.Good luck. Mike
*JM,Hard to believe that you only have tentest under that stucco but that only makes it easier to strip off and more important that you don't just try to cover it up.The tentest underneath has no structural integrity at all.Gabe
*I was kinda freaked out too Gabe, but it does indeed seem to be Tentest! It seems to me that there's conflicting advice as to the value of leaving, rather than stripping this stucco (which is clearly going to be the death of me wither way it seems). Wil keep my eye open here for any last thoughts by anyone new or any last ideas, but thanks again to all for advice so far.JM
*This just in from Bill via direct email. Gabe, I am curious as to how this may contradict your concerns. You have noted two things earlier in this thread:1. "JM, with the extreme changes in temperature around here and given that the temp. was 0 degree C today and changing to -20 in the next couple of days, I think that you would be well advised to rethink your plan of attack."and2. "I know it sounds like a lot of work, but it's acually easier to strip it clean and start over. The end product will also be more stable."While Bill wrote:"I read the thread again today. Here in California it has been found that a layer of stucco reinforced with wire makes a tremendous difference to a building's ability to survive an earthquake without collapse. The stucco gets wrecked, but the house stands. Having that thermal mass within the envelope is also a free (in your case) way to smooth out thermal ups and downs. Best of luck.Bill
*Apples and oranges.California does not share our climatic changes....stucco over expanded metal over tentest is not the same as over ply, osb, masonry or concrete.....While Ottawa has earthquake zone specifications they are not to the same requirements as California.....We are talking about the sealing of the walls and the structural integrity of the finished product not the ability to withstand an earthquake.Gabe
*I have wondered for several years, "What about vapor trapping?" My understanding is that the warm side of the wall should be vapor resistant and materials on the cold side should be relatively permeable. Then, any vapor/moisture that does enter the insulated cavity through defects in the inner vapor barrier has a chance to pass to the outside world. By wrapping the house in foam board, a very impermeable layer is placed in the approximate middle of the insulation envelope setting up a surface for condensation with rot following close behind. Does this happen or is it OK to add the outer layer of foam board insulation? Does an outer layer of foam board insulation "with all edges and seams sealed" make such an effective barrier to air infiltration that there is no movement of air/vapor/moisture through the wall?
*In theory, this would be true. However, due to imperfections in products and installation, odds are the envelope will not be perfect and it will leak enough to prevent damage.I've seen what is commonly refered to as dry rot in some pretty strange places. Most have been a result of a combination of things that caused a double sealing or trapping of moisture.In the case of the house noted above, it is unlikely that the inside envelope is properly sealed. The house probably leaks at all the outlets, window edges or trim and at the baseboards.The use of tentest as a backing for the expanded metal and stucco gives cause for concern. Depending on the stucco's age and composition, the ability to hold a nail or screw could be comprimised. Driving the screw into the backing will not help at all. Put two screws or nails together and you could cause a fracture and subsequently allow moisture to enter. All in all, in this case, removing the old stucco is the safest and best way to go.Gabe
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I've been subscribed to Fine Homebuilding for almost 10 years now and both enjoy and rely on the information greatly for my construction and renovation projects. I am not a professional builder, although I did take a year off work to build a home on spec successfully about seven years ago. I hope someone can help me with my current situation. Never tried this online chat discussion group, but have been impressed with how friendly and helpful people seem to be with requests for help. Here is my situation as short and clear as possible:
The situation
We have an old (post war) veteran's one and a half [2X4 stick] which desperately needs more insulation and we're not big on the look of the outside We live near Ottawa (Ontario, Canada), so winter's a bit of a ... well ... you can imagine!
I am looking to insulate and redo the exterior at the same time and was strongly considering horizontal bracing + reframing window openings + extruded polystyrene rigid insulation + house wrap or tar paper + stained cedar board & batten (or maybe Tongue & groove). I have had decent success with Behr stain products.
I'm leaving out some details here, but my fear is that I am omitting something major (likely). I've had one friend tell me to make sure I actually seal all edges and seams of the insulation or not bother at all insulating. I'm OK with that concept in general. I've had a contractor tell me it is better tearing off the entire existing stucco exterior (it's made to look like brick) and start from scratch. Sounded the way he said it that he never re-layed anything on an old exterior before, so I am not 100% confident about his advice. Lastly, I was told that I should make sure the house can still "breathe". Now that puzzles me a bit, given I doubt I will be automatically creating an R2000 home with my approach. Although I am sensitive to air circulation and quality and have no problem considering adding an air exchanger if this was worthwhile.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated by you folks.
Best Regards,
JM Dupont