Gentlemen,
My house burned in June. My house was a L-shaped ranch built split level. The fire destroyed only the front 1700 square feet. The other 1200 was only smoke damaged. The company decided that they would only replace the part that was destroyed, I reluctantly agreed. I excepted the bid from the premium contractor that is on the list of preferd contractors and a good friend of my claims adjuster. I liked the guy and his references checked out, so I signed the work authorization and direction to pay contract.
The contractor started demolition of my house and destroyed the entire house. The guy he sent out grades for a living and has no experience in demolition. The demo guy was in over his head and now I have nothing. The good thing is I did video tape the demolition and it was incompetence.
My real question is if the contractor cannot handle the demo, can he handle the construction? My mortgage company has the check at this point with his name, my name, and their name. How can I get rid of this contractor if I need to and still get back in my house this century? What are my options? I need a game plan……please help!
Luke
Edited 7/28/2007 12:52 am ET by luke
Edited 7/28/2007 12:53 am ET by luke
Replies
Time to hire a lawyer.
Ask around. Get the guy that everyone describes as vicious.
Rich Beckman
Coming to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would like to avoid a legal battle. I like the contractor and I think that he will handle this without a problem. I assume this could happen to anyone in the construction business, but I still need a game plan just in case.
Luke
what do you mean he destroyed the entire house? He demo'ed the areas that weren't supposed to be demo'ed? You videotaped it without saying anything?
No, I ask him if he planned to cut the front part of the house away from the part that was to remain. He started bulldozing the front side of the house and pushed it off its foundation. The house moved as single unit and collapsed! I was yelling stop the entire time.
Bulldozer huh. WOW! Around here most demos are done with excavators which crush the building down into the basement. I was envisioning the guy knocking down the burned part of the house and then swinging the bucket over to take a chunk out of the part to stay. Either way by the time you would have gotten to the operator it would have been too late.
I know you probably don't think this is funny now but I bet when all this is over with you could sell the video to one of those blooper shows and win the $10,000. The look on the guys face when he realized what he had done must have been complete dread and horror. I hope this whole thing gets fixed for you with the least amount of hassle.
The general contractor should have been present during the demo or at least one of his top guys. It's critical to separate the demo out from the rest. Anybody can push things around with a tractor.
For him to send this guy out is just like he did it. You keep saying the contractor is a good guy but he just messed up your house big time.
The contractor is responsible. Hold him to it.
Edited 7/28/2007 1:11 pm ET by popawheelie
I would like to thank you guys for all your input! I have taken your advice! I will let you know how this plays out.
Luke
Any before & after pics of this Fine Homebuilding experience?
Joe H
What has he said so far?He needs to be forkin up the money to replace what was destroyed.And I am not an attorney, but it is my impression that in a case like this the existing contract is null and void.The condition that contract is based on no longer exists.This is no longer a fire restoration. It is now a new build job.And while he might be good for restoratio jobs he might not the the right one for a new build.And you need a completely new contract and completely new specifications and new funding sources.The first that I would do would be to spend a couple of 100 for a visit with an attorney to see where you stand and what you options are.BTW, was this adjuster and employee of the insurance co or an independent adjuster?In my limited experience with independent adjusters they like to "steer" business to their friends..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Employee of the company.
OK, you want to avoid a lawsuit but the check is only for the reconstruction of the damaged part, not the whole house. Who will pay for the added construction costs, the extra demolition costs (you can't expect him to tear the whole house down for the price of just the damaged part, can you?) and extra materials? That check will not be enough for all of what it will cost to rebuild your house. Your insurance company and the contractor should be held responsible for this. Your mortgage company only wants their money- they don't want property. You don't want to walk away from this property, yet you're in the middle. You need a good lawyer, who will make your house whole again, the way the insurance company is supposed to but by using the adjuster's friend, you'll come out screwed if the agreed upon payment (all you'll get if you don't stand up for yourself) is all that will be used to rebuild the whole house. Don't accept a half-assed house when you had better than that before. The insurance company doesn't want you to "better your position" but you should never have to settle for worse than you had.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
first thing the bulldozer operator going to say it that "You told him to knock it down" stop work, hire a lawyer today
What insurance company did you deal with? Give some names so none of us have to relive what has happened to you.
My heart goes out to you but I agree get a lawyer.
I have pictures and video! At this time I prefer to not post company names. After this is over I will share a pretty funny video even though, I find in very hard to laugh at this time. In a few mounths I hope this becomes funny to me. I feel sure that the contractor and I will come to an understanding.
Luke
Thanks for the sympathy but this has never happened to me.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
While I agree with everyone about your consulting a construction/insurance claims lawyer, I'm wondering why you didn't immediately call your insurance agent/company.As far as you liking your contractor, he's the one that hired the guy who boinked your house. I like my mechanic, but I wouldn't let him build my car<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
I contacted my insurance agent within five minutes of this mess. I have talked with the adjuster several times. At this time he says the contractor will fix this mess they are reputable.
Did the ins co say where the money for the fix was coming from? Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Contractor.
"I like my mechanic, but I wouldn't let him build my car<G>"I thought you were going to say, "I like my mechanic, but I wouldn't let him father my children"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Appointment set for 9:00am on Monday! I have not taken any of this lightly. The contractor deserves a chance to fix this mistake made by his sub.......I think. I have reported the damage to the adjustor, contractor, my agent and the person that I hope I will not need!
Luke
OK gentleman, place your bet, place your bet.I got amilkbone that Luke going get screwed.
That's already happened.The betting now is whether he gets STD
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just want to know and this question bothers me. "Who demos a half of a house with a bulldozer?"
Answer:A guy who owns a bulldozer and half a brain!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Does your helper own a dozer?
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that Luke going get screwed
I'm jsut hoping he does not wind up with the "upside down" that new versus used housing can do to a person.
Let's pick a couple numbers. Let's say the fair market value of the (predemolished) house was $90/sf. Let's say new construction runs $150/sf. The "replacement cost" insurance value for the house is likely to be the SF*$90 value, not the SF*$150 value. Leaves a big dilemma when you get to "totaling" a house.
In my own case, rebuilding the same footprint square footage yeilds a house of a similar size to the rest of the neighborhood, just at twice the cost--not a good thing for that next tax bill. My 'hood will show extremes like that since it's largely fifty year-old houses; all good values--just no where near what new costs.
And, I suspicion that there's about even odds all of the insurance types will huddle up, haggle out a number, then cut a check with a "see'ya, have a nice day."Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"The contractor deserves a chance to fix this mistake "I am not arguing that at all. I would love to have all my customers as fair as you.But you asked for advice and the ONLY way you are going to have representaation protecting YOU is to hire that mouthpiece to advise and help you through this
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would like to avoid a legal battle. I like the contractor and I think that he will handle this without a problem. I assume this could happen to anyone in the construction business, but I still need a game plan just in case.
I like a lot of people too but I'm not willing to let any of them screw me over.
Go talk to your mortage company, a lawyer and whoever else is being recomended. NO BODY has said that you need to sue ANY BODY, yet.
Yes we all make mistakes, all professionals do but its what they do after the mistake that makes some more professional then others.
If the remaining part of the house(part that wasnt supposed to be demo'd) was knocked off the fondation then you need more then a rebuild and my question would be, who's paying for it?
Doug
I don't think it's been mentioned before, so I'll offer an opinion that you NEED to consult with an atty.>I would like to avoid a legal battleHaving a lawyer doesn't inevitably mean having a legal battle. Sometimes it's a great way to avoid one. The primary initial purpose is to help you learn your rights and obligations. Another use is for communication. Having an atty lets him/her be the hard-####, if you need one, while you can be the victim needing redress. It's hard to be both at the same time. You can then talk with the contractor about your needs for a house, while the atty can represent your interests on money, timing, and contracts.I agree with the others who say you need a specialty atty now.
Edited 7/28/2007 1:25 pm ET by CloudHidden
You don't have a choice. Get a lawyer.George Patterson
At this point the one that needs to get a lawyer is your contractor to take action against his sub and/or the subs insurance co. Your GC should be given a chance to make things right (at no expense to you). This may even be spelled out in your contract. As crazy as it sounds, terminating your contract without letting him fix his mistake might put you in breach of contract. Mistakes to get made sometimes, this was a big one. This sounds like either miscommunication or a bonehead demo contractor, or both. What has the GC said about what he is going to do about the situation? If he isn't going to make it right then it's your turn to get the lawyer.
As for can he handle the job since the demo was botched, I would say right now that comes down to how he handles this current problem. If it were me, thank God its not, I would in person deliver a full explanation and apology for the mistake and then give you a plan on how it will be fixed. Part of this would be an acknowledgement that since he is the GC he is ultimately responsible for what happens on the job site even though his sub made the mistake. He needs to be frank and strait forward in order to restore the trust and confidence that you have lost in him. How well he does at this should determine if you can restore your faith in him that he will do a good job from here on forward.
Edited 7/28/2007 1:45 am ET by ampres
He seems to be a good guy and he says he will fix this mess and I believe him. I still would like to hear a professional opinion.
Luke
If by professional opinion you mean talk to a lawyer to know your options as previously suggested I think that would be a good idea. I just don't think you should jump the gun and sue the guy right off the bat.
I am not thinking of sueing him. I need to know what to do if I need the change companies.
You need to do something NOW.You don't have a contract with him.But if you let him continue with a writen contract then he can do whatever he wants and you end up in a real mess." I need to know what to do if I need the change companies.
"Why are you asking this on a construction forum?What kind of information do expect to get other than what has been presented to you by several persons.SEE AN ATTORNEY.That does not mean that you are going to sue.But you need something more than "I'll make it right".You'r "right" and his "right" might be comepletely wrong.And even if does agree to make it right, in your eyes, where is the money coming from? Maybe he plans from collecting from the bulldozer operator, but 6 months later finds that he let his insurance lapse or his insurance company does not think that the claim is legit and has to be sued.There you house is almost finished, but has $100k in liens on it.THIS IS A COMPLICATED SITUATION AND VERY I HAS TO BE DOTTED AND EVERY T CROSSED..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 7/28/2007 2:21 am by BillHartmann
I agree with everything you said except that he doesn't have a contract with the GC, unless I misunderstood the OP. He needs to consult with an attorney to know his options and to make sure he can break his contract without exposing himself to liability.
If you have a contract to buy a house for $350k and the closing is on the 10th.And on the 8th it burns to the ground.Are your forced to pay $350k for a pile of ashes.No, the contract is void.Now his contract probably calls for things like clean the standing part of the house, match the siding to the standing part of the house, and dozens of other things that PHYSICALLY CAN'T BE DONE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXISTS..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm not sure your analogy works apples to apples here but lets go with it anyways:
You have a contract to buy a house but haven't yet closed, I'm assuming it's being built for you not an existing house. It burns down the night before you close. You don't own anything since you haven't closed but you still have a contract for getting your house built. Do you close the next day and pay? No of course not. Your contractors builders risk insurance pays and your contractor builds another identical house. The contract still exists. It may have to be modified to acknowledge the situation, or rewritten but it still exists. If you just broke the contract your builder could conceivably come after you for breach of contract and for lost money based on that contract.
In this case there still exists a contract to rebuild half of the house even though the other half is no longer there. It is my understanding that when a contractor makes a mistake, or has a warranty issue for that matter, the homeowner has to give the contractor a reasonable opportunity to rectify the situation. If the contractor does not perform then the homeowner has a case against the contractor.
We could probably go around on this all night long and not prove a thing since neither of us are lawyers. We do agree on the important thing, the OP should talk with a real lawyer ASAP.
"It is my understanding that when a contractor makes a mistake, or has a warranty issue for that matter, the homeowner has to give the contractor a reasonable opportunity to rectify the situation. If the contractor does not perform then the homeowner has a case against the contractor."That is by state law and it is fairly new, at least in MO. So it varies by state.But that for warranty work. One would have to look at the acutal law and in that state, but I doubt that it would cover this area."Your contractors builders risk insurance pays and your contractor builds another identical house. "Identical to WHAT? An how is it identified as IDENTICAL? What if ONE material is no longer available?That is what the contract covers, but there is no contract covers this.It is not that contract CAN BE amended, but that it MUST BE amended..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
So far I haven't detected the most overwhelming of compassionate responses from the insurance company in this case.
I predict the insurance co is going to cut a check for what THEY thought was the amount of orginal damage and then step out of it. That check is going to be many thousands short of replacing the house.
Someone's going be B'ing & M'ing about the difference.
I'd be in my counting room and on the phone with my atty right now if I was the OP.
From what he posted the insurance co has already paid the orginal claim in the form of an escrow check that the mortage company has.And apprently this just happend and the insurance company has not responsed yet.Very interesting about the insuracne company liability. If they do pay I am sure that they will be filling claims against the contractor and sub even before the ink is dry on the check that they would right.Another issue. Most likely any building permits that have been issued are now void.New plans and permits are needed..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You are correct, at least in MO where I know the law. If you have a contract on a house and it is destroyed prior to closing then the contract no longer exists. You get all earnest money returned and you are free to 1) make a NEW contract for the property with the same or different terms 2) take your money elsewhere and buy another property.The terms of the contract have changed and therefore the OP needs a new contract. Luke at the very least needs a contract specifying what exactly the GC means by 'making the situation right'. -Day
amp...
<<<
"Your contractors builders risk insurance pays and your contractor builds another identical house. ">>
Builder's Risk is a misnomer... the builder has General Liability, not "Builder's Risk"
the homeowner can get an addendum to his homeowner's policy to cover " Builder's Risk"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
just because the insurance company settled on a partial claim doesn't mean they are off the hook
don't you still have a policy in effect ?
that policy should be covering the remainder of the house... the part that isn't there anymore... sounds like an additonal loss to me
get a lawyerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, the HO policy should cover any damage that the contractor's policy does not. Just the same as if an uninsured drunk driver ran into the house.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Mike,
My comments re builders risk insurance was specific to the scenario given by Bill. If that scenario were playing out in MN the builder would need a minimum of three insurance policies: GL insurance; Builders Risk (since the builder owns the house - the HO hasn't bought it yet); and 2/10 insurance (to cover statutory warranty).
I agree that the OP's contractor probably wouldn't have builders risk on this job, it would be the OP's responsibility to have it since he is the owner of the property. At any rate I would think this would fall under the GL insurance category since it was a result of neglegence not an accident by someone unrelated to the project or act of God.
Luke,
I'm glad you decided to consult an attorney. Best luck.
Edited 7/28/2007 4:49 pm ET by ampres
I appreciate all the information from the people have presented. I like my contractor and he is a good salesperson. Information from other people I hope will allow me to see this situation in its gravity. The reason I ask my question here is that a lot of these guys are contractors, they are able to look at this from the contractors prospective.
I really wont to avoid a legal problem but need to protect myself!
Do you like it more getting it up the azz because you like someone?
Everytime some posts about calling a lawyer, your response is that you like the GC and don't want to get in a law suit. Wake up dude. You need a lawyer to examine the whole situation and advise you of your rights. That doesn't mean there will be a law suit. No one is on your side right now. Not your insuarance company, not the gc, not the dozer operator, not their insurance company. You need to get someone on your side, someone who can see the video, see the pile of scrap, and who knows local law."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
If you want to avoid a legal problem you need a lawyer. Not talking about lawsuits here, but about the occasionally strongly-worded letter, and someone to advise you as to who has what legal responsibility, what to sign or not sign, etc.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
This whole thread is a good reason why some folks DIY everything.
Then, nobody to blame but yourself.
Luke,
Let me repeat it GET A LAWYER because you can be damn sure that everybody else in this ballgame is going to be on the phone with theirs on Monday morning. Having a lawyer does not mean filing a law suit. I have a lawyer and I use his services to right situations about twice per year but have only filed a law suit twice in ten years. A letter to all parties involved making it clear that you are protected and won't settle for less than being made whole again will often be enough to get everybody to play fair. This 'little' mistake is going to cost someone a lot of money you have got to make sure that you are not the one left holding the bag. Was it the GC that was driving the dozer or was it a sub? As others have stated a dozer is one of the worst machines for a partial demo while it is one of the best for a complete tear down. It was not a mistake but rather incompetence that destroyed your house. When you are doing partial demo work you have to be VERY careful to spare the part that is staying and if care is not taken then damage is going to happen and this is the worst case scenario. The GC screwed up your house himself or by not supervising the demo sub properly. Are you still confident in his ability to build a new house from the ground up? Is he even equipped (knowledge, money, skills, equipment) for a complete build? Or will he go belly up halfway through? Good luck
Day
BTW did you get your personnel effects out of the undamaged part of the house before it was demoed?And you should GET A LAWYER!
If the contractor is as good as you think he is then he will be willing to work with you AND your lawyer.
"I really wont to avoid a legal problem"you ALREADY HAVE A LEGAL PROBLEM! You are deeply in need of legal advice.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If you find that you need to dump your current GC in favor of a new one, you should hire a lawyer which specializes in construction law. Have him/her handle breaking your contract with your currernt GC. Your lawyer could also handle the details with the mortgage and insurance co's. Don't break your contract without at least consulting a lawyer knowledgeable in construction law.
There is another facet to going with another builder which would almost require you to hire a lawyer. Your current GC may not have the cash reserves to pay for another contractor to rebuild the unintentionally destroyed portion of your house. In this case it would most likely result in a claim against his GL insurance company, or his subs GL carrier. It is this reason your contractor will want to rebuild himself since his out of pocket expense would most likely be lower than if he had to pay you to have someone else do it, that and he probably wants to restore his reputation. Having to pay out or make a claim of this size could put him out of business and he knows it. Right now he's probably waiting for Monday morning so he can hear from his lawyer how they are going after his sub's insurance company (I'm guessing the sub doesn't have the cash either). Unfortunately I think someone is going down on this one.
I do hope that they both have insurance...
" I still would like to hear a professional opinion."You need a lawyeryesterday!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hire a lawyer.
What's your HO insurance company say about it? Seems there the only one's you haven't talked to re: the latest events.
good point... my standard Proposal has a clause requiring the homeowner to get a "Builder's Risk " addendum to the homeowner polich
"Builder's Risk is to cover all the things that fall thru the "crack" between coverages
since this is an insurance job.. i would think there is some liability and exposure on the part of the insurance company also
the "builder's risk" addendum should be in place automatically until the home is made good
bottom line
get a lawyer... preferably a construction/ insurance specialist...
ask your attorney for a referral...... don't use your lawyer unless he has a lot of experience in this part of the lawMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Go back to your insurance company and file a claim for the rest of the building. As this was a "repair" you should still be covered. Your insurance co will then claim of of the contractors insurance. This is your first step. Might be an idea to have an independant "agent" to over see the work as it progresses.
I excepted the bid from the premium contractor that is on the list of preferd contractors and a good friend of my claims adjuster.
This is the claims adjuster who assures you the contractor will make good? The claims adjuster who works for the company that didn't agree to the full rebuild in the first place? Does the insurance company make you choose a contractor from their "preferred list"?
All the players are buddies except you and your good-natured willingness not to sue anyone. As my divorce lawyer said to me when i said i didn't want to really 'hurt' my soon-to-be-ex: "You understand that this is an adversarial system, right?"
"You understand that this is an adversarial system, right?"
Code Duello with lawyers for guns and money for blood.SamT
Unfortunately, there is little honor involved anymore.
Well, it looks to me like cleaning up any lingering smoke oders won't be a problem now.
cleaning up the smoke oders should have been addressed to "all" in the above posting.
Yeah, the insurance company is going to demand a refund for what they paid for that.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You Need An Attorney.
Not tomorrow, not today, but Yesterday.
You need one with extensive background in both construction and insurance work..
The way I see it, your insurance company authorized repairs to nn% of your house for fire damage. Now, you have a second claim for damage caused during construstion/repair.
If you had hired a remodeling contractor, and that worthy had damaged xx% of the house, there'd be a claim to make as a result of that. And, that is the problem.
The word you are going to hear and not want to is subrogation. Insurance company was paying $xxx to repair the nn% of the asset they were insuring. Subcontractor has subsequently reduced the value of that asset by some number of dollars. Sub & GC's liability/insurance/bonding will define what dollars are available--left over, to put it bluntly.
The mortgage holder will likely have a strong opinion, since the collateral they were mortgaging just dropped to the salvage value of an infill lot plus demolition costs.
So, on one side will be the bank and its attorneys. On another will be the insurance company and its attorneys. On another will be the insurance/bonding agencies for the GC/Sub. Last side is yours. That's 3/4 to 1.
You Need Representation Now.
None of the extant attorneys will "be on your side." Because of the dollars involved, and because the truly causitive party--the demo sub--may be penniless, the parties could decide to just hand you a check for each of their parts and all go "king's X"--good luck in the new house you buy.
Because of a recent thread, I'll recently gone over all of the numbers with my insurance and mortgage people. Between 70 and 80% "loss" I'm at high risk of being left with ditch the house, buy another used house with the settlement check and sell the lot for an infill. Over 80%, that's my only option--under 70%, the remodeling work can be $120-140/SF, and I still wind up "whole."
I've invested $328.14 in legal fees to get that hammered out to every parties' satisfaction, even though I still can't afford spending $300.
CapnMac lays the case out very well.Maybe you are a reasonable person. Maybe your GC is a reasonable person.But it is likely that he can not make it good out of his own pocket. His insurance will almost certainly be involved. The subs insurance will be involved (the GC's insurance will see to it). Your insurance is involved.All three of those insurance companies are looking out for whose interests??? Their own.If you don't want he most vicious attorney in town, fine. Just remember, that leaves him/her free to represent one of the other parties.I hope this works out well for you. Since you have posted that you are getting a lawyer, I know there is a chance it might work out well.
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Luke,
I read your post & several of the replies to my wife She is a lawyer for a large insurance company speializing in construction defect.
Because the contractor was preferred by the insurance company this is ultimately their responsibilty.Ultimately payment for this error will me made by his insurance company.
If you are no longer comfortable with the contractor there should be no issue requesting an alternative.However, the time to do this is before anymore work is done.
Litigation should not be necessary since the responsibilty/liability is clear and should be resolved by your carrier & the contractor.
However, that having been said, you should absolutely retain an attorney with experience handling property insurance claims( not personal injury) The amount of money you spend on this representation will be minimal reletive to the overall claim and you can insist that your carrier pony up additional funds to cover this expense. IT's critical that you have someone whose sole responsibilty is to represent your interests.
I wish you good luck and a speddy return to your home.
Luke, sorry your house got wiped out. Really, its scary and shocking. But I can tell you this: Ka-ching! Why worry? Unless it was truly special, you just got a new house on the insurance money! I waited ten years for my trees or my neighbor's to wipe out my house. No such luck. Had to pay to take the trees down and do the remodel too!
If you can shrug this off, get a lawyer, settle, and get a whole new house! I know it sounds bizarre, but this has a silver lining!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Another issue.Because of zoning changes you might not be allowed to build the house back on the same foundation, if the same foundation is usable.And they might not even allow a house of that size to be rebuild or maybe none at all.If those are a problem then sometimes a variance can be obtained. In someplaces it is a long and expensive proposition with no guarantee that you will get one.So that all needs to be figured into your damages..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Before reading this post: NOTHING I say here is directed at any particular person, or comment. No disrepect is intended.
We seem to have several threads running that all have the same thing in common: folks lacking the most basic education in the way things REALLY operate. Instead, I see folks -not just here, but in life, in general - spouting off with all sorts of clever logic, things that sound good at the time. Many is the time I have seen a person offer opposing theories, as the situation changed; amazingly enough, each change just happened to reflect what the person saw as his interest at the moment.
Would anyone watch a game, where one team got to move the goalposts around to suit? I think not.
Let's break this story down into it's elements:
1) When you have a house, you take out insurance, to help recover from a loss you suffer;
2) The house was damaged; this was your 'claim;'
3) The insurance company agreed, and repairs started;
4) During the repair, the place was damaged again;
5) This is a new 'claim;'
6) Now the question is, "Who fixes?"
This new claim will be decided by the same rules as the first one:
1) If someone can be identified as 'responsible,' they will be expected to fix what they broke;
2) You insurance company ... being expected to pay you ... can be relied upon to pursue whoever broke the house ... be it the GC, the Sub, their insurance companies, the individual, whoever ... all to get their money back from them;
3) In the meantime, none of that changes the fact that you have a NEW claim to put to the insurance company;
4) Since there are identifiable parties (GC, Sub, etc.), they need to be informed of your claim against them. Just because you have insurance does not relieve them of their liability;
5) Such notifications must often be done in exactly the right way, within strict time limits. Here is where YOUR lawyer earns his pay.
6) Whatever happens between your insurance company and these other parties has NOTHING to do with your claims against anyone.
Sure, this has all the makings of a paperwork nightmare. A lot of this can be avoided as long as you keep your eye on the ball, and not be distracted by side issues. Your position is: You've been harmed, and want things restored to what they were before. Period. This is not an opportunity to 'mine' the claim with spurious damage claims.
Now, in speaking with lawyers ... here's a 'rule of thumb' to keep in mind:
You'll be lucky, when all is done, to break even. Don't expect more.
The most you're ever likely to see as a 'judgment' is MAYBE triple the loss. That is, a $300,000 judgment for a $100,000 fix. Even then, you can be sure that you'll never see the $200,000 'extra.' Where that 'extra' money will go is outside the scope of this thread.
My point is this: Any lawyer who casually tosses around huge figures is using you for toilet paper. There is a reason so many lawyers have brown eyes. Keep looking.
Your county courthouse ought to have case records. There is no reason for a lawyer to fear your seeing some of these PUBLIC records. Ask him to name a few of his cases ... then go read them. You'll get some insights into his approach. Heck, the courthouse might even index them by counsel!
I've lost count of folks who told me one day how great their lawyer was, and how rotten he was a few months later. The only way to avoid this emotional roller coaster is to keep your eye on the ball: Know from the start what it is you want, and stick to it.
i'd save the money to the lawyer. i would calmly call the insurance co. and tell them they need to come out and access what there "perfered contractor" has done ,and let the two of them figure it out.
i take this stance from having a bodyshop and knowing that once it's in the shop of the preferred shop,it's all between th e shop and the ins. company.
good luck,i'm sure you'll like the new home they are going to build for you.larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
you are 100 % right but let me add to itwe are talking about an industies that wont pay 1000 of claims on the gulf coast due to wind or water damage. In my opinion, they dont care about the client, its all money, beside the insurance company going have a lawyer, the construction company going have a lawyer, will not the client
The thing is, insurance companies are notoriously fickle. I have heard countless stories of how they work hard to find reasons to not pay all of the damages.And I've heard stories of how they seemed to be looking for things to pay for. I've experienced this twice. I re-roofed a house on the insurance companies dime because of hail damage. The homeowner had the adjuster out about some other damage and the adjuster looked at the roof and said "That needs replaced" and authorized it.I never could figure out what he saw that qualified as hail damage.I had hail damage on my mini van once. All of it on one side. There was one lone ding on the opposite side which I was sure had been there for awhile, but the adjuster wouldn't listen to me and included it.
Maybe the lawyer is completely unnecessary, but you never know....
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in my dealings with ins. co. on autos,it's all about the adjuster. some act like each penny comes out of thier pocket and the next time he could care less.
perfect example ,i have a comm. building 4000sf flat roof. gets hailed off adjuster will not move off of 2200.00 for replacement.WHAT? so i patch around and save it,spent the 2200. year and a half later another hailstrom,i think great here we go again. adjuster climbs off roof,says he figures 13,500 will fix it.
same company ,different adjuster.
theres no doubt they want to save as much as possible,but when it's a total it becomes a little hard for them to squirm. just tell em to let you know when it's ready to move into,your going back to the rental they are paying for. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Guy's
I am already screwed we have nothing else to lose. I am speaking with an attorney in the mourning. I ask here because I figured you guys could be in similar shape on most days. I was looking for a contractors opinion of how this guy will react.
It is not my plan to let anyone screw me, lets be real most insurance companies have more lawyers and money to play with than the average Joe. If they want to screw me they will find a way.
In the end of any legal battle the guy that still has money wins! In this case it would probably be the lawyers.
Luke
I hve mentioned this before, but worth repeating.You have a very complicated situation and even if everyone bends over backwords to help you there are still a number of pitfalls.One, is the lot still buildable or the same house or same size of house.Does your insurance policy cover only market value, up to the face value of the policy or replacement cost (often up to 1.3 times the face value)?And do you have rider for code upgrades. A basic policy will only cover rebuilding to similar construction.But if codes require better construction the policy won't pay for those unless you hve the rider.So you HO policy has certian limits.But the contractor's liability might not have those same limits.And depending on the contractor and sub's resources then both him and the insurance company might pay with or without the insuracne company going after the contractor.And as mentioned the contractor might promise to pay and you agree and release the insurance company, but then at the end of constrcution find that the contractor does not have the resources..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I am speaking with an attorney in the mourning. <<
Freudian slip?
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I am speaking with an attorney in the mourningit could be right talking to lawyer " They killed my house, its dead, WAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
Edited 7/30/2007 1:07 pm by brownbagg
Have you contacted your HO insurance company yet regarding the new situation?
Or just looking to sue somebody?
If you haven't spoke with the insurance carrier yet about the new situation this whole thread is an example of how not to use the players already on your team.
You have not read much of this thread have you!
Forgive me if I missed it but where did you explain in this thread where you made contact with the Ins Co after the additional damage to the house occurred?
The reason I think this would've been better is: What if your GC & Subs wanted to be adzes? Yes, you got an atty but who pays for the atty during the process? W/out the Ins Co involvement you pay it out of a finite savings. I'd expect the Atty to want payments along the way. Ins Co has teams of attys that work for them (and if not they got deep pockets) and would do the work for you without $$$ out of your pocket. Several times through this thread it was suggested to get the ins co involved. You pay them, are paying them, they work for you. Let them fight for you. I take it they are providing temp housing for you that was figured on the fire damage repairs. The rebuild will take longer and require longer temp housing therefore more $$$$. Who's going to foot that bill?
I guess it's all up to how much drama you want in your life. Lot's of drama? Fight it yourself. Little drama? Have the Ins Co do it for you.
Yes, he has mentioned several time that he has notified them.And in fact he said that they are processing the NEW claim and will subrogate against the contractors.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92874.88.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for pointing it out Bill. I did miss it but my postion still stands, the Ins Co carrying the HO policy should've been the 1st ones to be contacted, not a high powered local atty.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92874.69
Has your position taken a load off now?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
In our legal system, your insurance company is your adversary, not your friend. They're an adversary because they have to pay money out for you.Deal curteously and repesctfully with them, but have a lawyer. The one time I had a big claim, I immediately got a lawyer, and then treated the IC like I was working for them, investigating and rechecking every bill and invoice. When it was time to negotiate the final, my lawyer thought we would never get the large amount I wanted. Got the check in two weeks.SamT
Sit up and pay attention in class John.This guy is doing everything possible to AVOID getting into suit mode.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, See my other post.
Ins Co is your sub, & you should expect certain amount of work from them. Is there any need to go in and do the job for them even though you're paying them and won't see any difference other than extra work on your part and potentially higher cost for your own personal atty? Ins Co is paid to provide replacement of the home why not let them do their job?
If I was trying to avoid a law suit I'd get as much horsepower on my side from the start. I don't have the financing to buy my good friend (very good local atty) for what could be a lengthy and expensive legal battle (even if it didn't make it to court) but the Ins Co should. Who has more HP? Me and my finite savings with a good atty or the Ins Co with a good atty group?
John
edit to add missing segments of sentences
Edited 7/31/2007 7:41 am ET by john7g
Sometimes - especially in convoluted cases like this, it is absolutely necessary to have your own lawyer pull the strings on the insurance company. They are known for trying to sidestep as much as they can. A legal beagle will know what the state will not allow them to get away with.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Let's face it - the insurance company is on the side of their shareholders, and they have teams of professionals on their side. The less money they pay out in claims, the happier the shareholders are.
You don't want to be a bystander, you want your own professional in your corner.
Insurance company and contractor are being great in this situation. I am working with them and MY Lawyer.
but why cant we get alone, why cant we work together, we cant we do this job together. why cant we be friends
Because we're Breaktimers.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
That a quote from a contractor of another post, right before their plunge the knife into your back.I dont trust insurance companies, I was swindle out of 120k from work man comp, and I see thousand get screw from katrina.
My friend,
You said hire a lawyer.....I did! They may give me a std or what ever else you said earlier, At this time the contractor is being a stand up guy. My insurance agent has documented the new claim. They are letting him pay the claim. If for some reason he can not pay the claim my company will rebuild my house and sue the contractor.
If the insurance and the contractor screw me .....and I have a lawyer Im still screwed. At this time I have realized that my family is safe and I still have a job. The rest will work its self out good or bad. I will get through it either way.
If the insurance and the contractor screw me .....and I have a lawyer Im still screwed. At this time I have realized that my family is safe and I still have a job. The rest will work its self out good or bad. I will get through it either way.
Good luck, it's only money.
Joe H
Trust but verify - which is exactly what you are doing.
And keeping a good attitude on top of a large amount of adversity.
You came here for some advice, got it, listened to it, acted on it.
I commend you.
I hope the best for you.
I hope this doesn't turn into a thread of what everyone thinks of insurance.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
It toke to long to get started but they have. So far they are doing a nice job. Next fight will be the wring. I had all 20amp circuits and they plan to run 25 amp.
Luke
"I had all 20amp circuits and they plan to run 25 amp."Do you mean 15 amp? On the other hand, you said you had a video, when do we get to see it? Or is it still tied up with insurance company?
Actually, there have been a lot of ups and a lot of downs. The contractor and I have only fought on days ending in y. The biggest complaint I have is all the time the house has set with no work being completed.
The contractor tried to be as cheap as he could on materials and labor. When I raised a question he would try to satisfy me. I still think he is a pretty good guy just to busy to keep up with all the work he has.
The house looks really good, I just can't get the guy to finish! He has seven days according to the insurance people.
Luke
I work with several GC's .... and you know, they're ALL "good guys." I've seen them, time and again, schmoozing the customer, while their crew goes about following the most inane instructions - from none other than the 'great guy.' The GC on one of my current jobs is typical. Why, anything can be done, it won't cost much, etc ..... amazingly enough, almost every job results in a dispute over that "not much." Or, in the course of the job, when the GC gets caught doing things wrong ... to do them right costs 'extra.' Be specific, you ask? On this current job, he cut out one of the main support pillars. The place is still standing - so far! Looks like he got away with it, THIS time. The furnace he's installed was salvaged from the dump, is mounted on its' side, and is missing the front cover - the part with all the part numbers and wiring diagrams on it. The refrigeration compressors were likewise stolen from a recycling center, and are missing all nameplate info, as well as using an obsolete refrigerant. He can't schedule, does things without plans or approvals, performs work out of sequence .... but, hey, he's a great guy! I sure hope this all works out well for you .... but I fear you'll see several months of come-backs after the job is 'finished.'
just curious, did you hire this guy?
dug
Looking for another thread I came across this one.Just wondering how things where going on.And how the finger pointing between the CG, insurance co, and the demo contractor is being resolved..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Time for an update.
What's happening?
Still on good terms with Ins Co, GC, Lawyer?
Joe H
The vast majority of times, theses things work out well. A tiny minority of times, they don't, and you wish you'd had your lawyer helping you along. A good lawyer, in times like this, will never be a negative, and could be a positive.
You're doing it the right way, and making sure you have your lawyer looking out for your interest just adds a layer of protection that only a fool wouldn't have. You're not looking for a fight, but just making sure you have someone watching out for you.
That's called being smart.
amazing what a track hoe guy will do if you slip him a twenty
p
Your house is still insured. Call your agent. If there hadn't been a fire, and a guy on a piece of heavy equipment came and tore down part of your house, your insurance would cover it. Your policy should still cover this "new" damage to your house. The only down side is they may think you owe a second deductible. You should easily be able to recover that from the Contractor or his insurance if necessary.
Your insurance company's lawyers will pursue the contractor, and his sub's insurance companies to recover their increased loss, which was caused by the contractors failure to properly control his sub.
But do hire your own lawyer. There is a whole can of worms that may have just been opened up. So long as it was repair work, you probably had the legal right to build back to setbacks, footprint to lot size restrictions, etc. that were in force at the time of original construction. The new requirements could require a change in house size, the footprint on the lot, even the utility feeds.
File another claim, with the new loss date - the day the bulldozer destroyed the house. Let the insurance company pay you for the new loss, then it's up to them to go after the contractor.
Greg
Todays Update,
The contractor is a good guy, as I thought. I have the demo on video. Talked with very rich lawyer today and he say that I have nothing to worry about! He will be handling the contract issues from this day forward, he has a copy of the video.
My wife chose a new floor plan with several upgrades and they are going to build it. The contractor has enough insurance to cover my home very easily. He has been nothing but professional. No one can completely control a sub. The sub is also well insured. This all was an unfortunate accident.
The adjuster informed me that a new claim will be issued and they will deal with the contractor. My job is to let my wife pick colors and move back in.
Luke
Best wishes for it all happening as smoothly as they're making it sound.
My job is to let my wife pick colors
Sounds like the worst part is about to start."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Re the code/zoning issues previously mentioned, it would be a good idea to follow up on this and make sure that there's been no zoning change that can bite you. In most cases you, as property owner, are legally responsible for permits, zoning compliance, etc, and you could end up adding the local zoning folks as yet another party to the mix.Better to find out now than halfway through the reconstruction.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
BTW, how old was this structure?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
At this time there are no zoning issues or building restrictions. The big thing so far is to drain and inspect the septic tank and change the permit from remodeling to new construction.
Here's to the worst being behind you. Good luck with the build.
You know that posting pictures will be required from time to time or we'll change the secret handshake that gets you into this place!<g>
buic
luke ,you need to start a new thread so others can refernce to it,title "how to get rid of all the smoke smell forever" one word: bulldozer!! good luck ,it sounds like there ought to be a little less worry on your shoulders.
p.s. what ever you paid for the video camera,i'd say was money well invested. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
<<My job is to let my wife pick colors and move back in.>>Here's to a heckuva house-warming soon with no ill feelings. It sounds like you've played this one very well with a bit of stick and a lot of carrot. Premature congratulations are in order! ;^)