How do you contractors work this into your contracts?
“Adding a dormer to your home is a complex process that requires skill and experience. It is not a job for average do-it-yourselfer. However, you can cut significant cost if your contractor allows you to do some of the work and you are willing to take on specific tasks.”
😉
Happened upon that statement while researching stuff.
Amazing the INFO “the experts” feed us DIYers
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WWPD
Replies
Are dormers really considered to be that complex? I had not thought of it that way, but I guess it takes a 'learn and see' experience to show exactly how complex it really is.
structural reinforcement, accurate cutting of roof, removing shingles for good tie-in, framing rafters and RO's, detailed window/rake flashings, roofing, siding, electrimical, vapor barriers, insulation, drywall, setting windows, painting, caulking. trimming......
Nah, EVERY homeowner, DIY'er can do all that!
No sweat.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
structural reinforcement, accurate cutting of roof, removing shingles for good tie-in, framing rafters and RO's, detailed window/rake flashings, roofing, siding, electrimical, vapor barriers, insulation, drywall, setting windows, painting, caulking. trimming......
Nah, EVERY homeowner, DIY'er can do all that!
EXACTLY!!! So other than sweeping and cleaning and painting (maybe) where exactly can they help you ???/ HA
Soooo much misinformation out there. It's no wonder the pro's get frustrated with customers.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWPD
We should pass law that says homeowners cannot work on their own house. This includes contractors, subs, GCs, and developers. Forces everyone to use someone else. :)
Maybe the law could be relaxed somewhat.
GC gets the lumber
Homeowner is the cutman
Sub assembles it.
All at a greatly reduced rate to save $$$
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WWPD
Well, I was kidding. But I'm not very good with the broom, either. Wait a second, I am not very good at most thing. :)
"We should pass law that says homeowners cannot work on their own house"
SSSSSHHHH. Some-one who can might hear you.
A tech for the telephone company was telling me he had a house built once. The contractor wouldn't let him install the phone and cable lines in his own house.He said the contractor had it set up someway legally that the house was his property until turned over to the homeowner. He wouldn't let the tech install because of liability.That might make for some interesting contract clauses- "Homeowner" refers to the "homeowner" until the contractor starts construction and becomes the "homeowner" until finished when he ceases to be the "homeowner" and ownership transfers to the "homeowner".
from design, to structure, to framing, to roofing, past wiring and insulation and to finish it can be very skills intensive, especially if you are living there while I'm doing it! I'm suprised at how easily you depreciate the skills of another's trade.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Clean up, haul trash off, sweep and you can paint it too. The help must be performed according to our schedule.
If you do these things, I will give you my hard cost / labor budget for these items, but not reduce my profit and overhead.
I don't!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"How do you contractors work this into your contracts?"
finding customers who can actually afford to pay in full for the project they really really "need" helps!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Interesting comments, guess i need to close up shop. I see owners doing and subbing out their finish better than most remodelers.
I see owners doing and subbing out their finish better than most remodelers.
I would say you should know, perhaps better than most of us, but your statement is unique to my experience. My experience includes at least 8 situations where we built the shell or "dry-in package" as we call it, for a whole home and the HO finished. The sumation comes from the HO himself (or herself), as I have told you before.
I do like your business program. I believe you when you tell me it works for you and your clients.
I am tempted and have thought about launching a shell home or additions program after viewing your website, but in my considerations the problem arises that I would have a hard time presenting it honestly to the client as a cost savings measure. Again, this is from HO input.
I don't see why. I ran a 50% markup company on every phase of work performed with full service remodeling. The customer in the middle to bottom side of upper income is fairly educated and therefore wants choices and those choices are profit and time killers. I never made much money on anything interior wise except cabinetry. All the rest of it was series of small jobs with tight scheduling and possible discrepencies . I also find subs working for owners for less or the same as builders and remodelers probably due to what they report as income. Usually when my phone rings , it is a no compete bid I am giving. Unfortunately I am turning down 10 jobs to every 1 I get, there is that much demand. I stopped doing any second floor additions or any addition that was just too weather risky. Since i don't advertise I am not sure where the true market is. I have focused on two neighborhoods that are mostly 2400 to 2800 sq. ft. half acre lots, brick houses, upper income type. I also do a lot for tradespeople. I really believe the market is in the starter home. Also feel like I am hedged somewhat against an economic downturn with this model. I knowwhat youre saying, i built alot of custom homes and additions and I did a whole lot of hand holding....those days are over.
Yes.
I am currently sending one of the best hardest working carpenter / multi-craft fellow thru some further school and training. When he finishes, we may try to set up a shell business, or at least do some marketing in this area.
Being that we also do custom homes and have subs / resources we could recommend them to our shell clients.
Al the best to you.
Here in Vancouver a homeowner would hardly get a bankloan for doing his own contracting. Banks don't give out money for jobs that do not conform. How will they enforce specifications? The banks want value for their loans. If the HO cuts corners the bank is out of luck. Of course if he (HO) can plunk down 800k cool bucks, that's fine
Second problem can arise with worker's compensation. Who is responsible if a homeowner gets injured on a job during construction.? The legal wrangling would be staggering and would take out any profit.
semar,
Good points, as are those from girlbulder. We have done some "dry-in packages" , but it is in get finished and out...no further responsibilities. Our clients make specials arrangements with their bank.
Again, while the attraction to do shell or dry-ins, I can tell you that we have not had any previous clients opting for this procedure of "finish it yourself" that thought they finished at some measurable advantage.
Do you think the internet will eventually eliminate capitolization of words, as we know them today?
one reason for not finishing it themselves is that they do not have the experience to do so. If they shy away from being their own contractor even up to framing lock up stage, chances are slim they will do it for the later stages.
That should not hinder you to appeal to GC to go that route. Problem with that is that it will make the GC's profit smaller.
My personal opinion is: the prefab exterior/interior wallsystem, standardized sizes will eventually take over. I saw this in the German homeindustry. The old system was to build block for block basement and upper walls, then came the framer to put on the wooden roofstructure, then the trades followed to finish the home.
Now they even prebuild the basementwalls. The majority of homes are put up in less than two months from excavation to move-in.
In Canada we had this system almost going when the Japanese market was hot.
Of course the true custom home would have some limitations with that
how would you know?
do all the remodelers that hire you to build a shell call back so you can walk thru?
That line ... "I see owners doing and subbing out their finish better than most remodelers." ... is probably grerat for marketing your services to DIY'ers ... but it's total bull sh!t.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
10% of my work is for contractors, the rest are homeowners. You're out of line son!Apparently your life is here and thats it, i noticed 11000 post in three years, now that is B.S.
Edited 2/25/2006 10:00 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 2/25/2006 10:04 pm ET by shellbuilder
"10% of my work is for contractors, the rest are homeowners. You're out of line son!"
and somehow that helps U decide that remodelers can't trim?
"Apparently your life is here and thats it, i noticed 11000 post in three years, now that is B.S."
Yeah ... that's me ... Mr Internet!
ahh ha ha ha ...
hey ... one more strike and yer out.
twice wrong so far ... go for it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sad, very sad. I trim about 90% of these jobs. In case you didn't know there are other trades to finish the job so nothing is directed at trim carpenters. So where you at now 11,667? Girlfriend or is this it?
Edited 2/25/2006 10:18 pm ET by shellbuilder
"Girlfriend or is this it?"
strike three and yer out!
Nice talking to ya ... if I ever need any bad shell advice I'll call.
but much unlike those bad remodelers U deal with ... I build my own.
bye.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"Girlfriend or is this it?"What's this with the 'girl' ####? I woulda thought that by the time a man passes puberty and has his first real girl, he would drop the playground habit of defaming his peers by calling them 'girlie'.Stop it. This is not an all male venue and I'd appreciate it if you would keep that in mind.
You are missing the pont sweetie. I see you needed another place besides JLC to have others worry about being sensitive to your gender. The best workers I have hired were female but they didn't spend as much time worrying about who they are on this planet as you are.
Don't attempt to demean me Shellie in an effort to obfuscate the meaning of my past post. Sensitive? No, just irritated at the constant assumption that A. Only men read these posts B. That women should have to constantly put up with men demeaning them every second. I don't give a flyin' frick about what the women who work for you say to you. More than likely since you are paying them, they are wise enough to keep their thoughts to themselves. And even if they are full fledged fighting, ball cutting dikes, I still don't care what they do or say.And I don't need your 'sensitivity' You don't like my comments then don't make your churlish anti girl remarks. Save them for your trip to the hunting lodge. Capisce?
Going into business building shells is a different ballgame than allowing the homeowner to participate in the build process.We actually have a homeowner who sent us a copy of plans with the question, "Will you hire us as laborers?"Who has the authority in such an instance? Is the homeowner willing to play laborer and keep their nose out of the build process or will they be apt to constantly oversee every peice of the job, interjecting and interfering when not needed?Will they follow safety rules? Will they stay out of the subs' way? Will they agree to not be around when not needed? Who is responsible should they injure themselves? What is to keep them from bugging the subs/crew every half a minute? Do they understand production? Or do they think a build project is like Trading Spaces complete with Ty Peddington dancing around in Land's End and Carrharts with a perky little mouthpeice running around asking stupid questions, "Watcha building Jeff? How's that roof coming along? Can I pull on this line?Ooopsy! Tripped on that cord, Mybad!"Lawdy.
"Apparently your life is here and thats it, i noticed 11000 post in three years, now that is B.S."
OK, now I see your logic. If a guy posts here a lot, his advice is worth less. If he seldom posts here, he has a "life", and his posts are more valuable. Wow, then I guess that the most valuable advice to be found is from guys who never post here! Uh, so what are YOU doing here?
BTW, what say you about 26,957 posts in 4 yrs??
Hee, hee"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
More posts means your worth less? I found this to be a problem in the opposite manner when I was one one home theater forum. I had posted >21K times in four years. In order to keep those individuals that thought I knew something when I didn't (my honest ignorance), I changed my forum handle every 10K posts. I have since stopped going to that forum, though.