I am hoping some BT’ers can help me figure out what went wrong!
I used Azek for the first time on my own house and followed all of the installation recommendations from Azek and some of the tips learned here at the university, but with the extreme cold temperatures on Monday, I had five cracks develop. These cracks are as large as 3/16’s and all occurred on long sections of trim (over 20 ft.)
The cracks occurred at different areas on the trim. Three were mid span and the board actually tore itself apart. I was inside when one crack occurred and it sounded like a small caliber discharge.
Has anyone else had this happen? Any thoughts on what to so about it?
For information, all of the trim was installed on solid substrate (either 2X or plywood) and we used SS or Galvanized finish nails and SS trim screws (GRK Phoenix #8 X 2 1/4″) that were drilled with a pilot hole prior to assembly.
Take a look and let me know what you guys think!
Replies
Looks like your frieze froze!!!
Sorry I couldn't resist that one!!
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
The bottom part of the split looks like a mitered joint...or am I seeing things
Yes the bottom part is actually part of a scarf joint that you are seeing. When it froze and broke it was about 5 degrees F outside with a wind chill near 20 below, but I'm not sure the Azek knew about the wind chill!
Anyway, I did send some photos to the AZEK engineers, so we'll see what they have to say. I hate to say it, but the way my luck has been on the whole project, It will be the "first" time this has ever happened! It would be fitting for my theme song..."If it weren't for bad luck.... you know the rest!
I'll keep you "posted" when I hear back from the AZEXPERTS!
Edited 12/22/2004 5:42 pm ET by Darin
And I'll keep you posted on what -5 will do (I'm praying it won't) to mitred corners on porch posts. These are on the widths of Koma........a similar substance. I know the homeowners will call if they see a hairline crack appear.
Oh man, I'm on my knees now.............Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Yikes! How cold did it get? It would be interesting to hear what the Azek engineers have to say about this.
It looks like there's plenty of shrinking in a 20-footer that gets real cold and because it was securly fastened, something had to give. That's why vinyl siding is hung from nails in slots.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
This stuff scares me. I have a job to install over 1000 square feet of the beaded soffit. The instructions for installation are contratdictory at best.
Let us know how this turns out....PLEASE!!!!
thanks... im sitting in my warm office looking out into the cold cleveland weather thinking about the 5 or 6 jobs i did with the stuff. oh well, i will hope for the best. it will be interesting to see what develops on this topic.
My first thought before reading thru the posts was..............looks more like Fypon. I'm looking inside the crack.
Read the posts. "partof a scarf joint"? Where's the rest, and if it's above the part that is obvious, why is there a screw so close to it.
What did you glue the joint with?
Did you purchase and install it yourself?
I don't mean to put you on the defense. Just asking a few questions.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
firebird,
I notice the yellowish tint, but I'm not sure if that is just from the photo. I can assure you it is AZEK. The crack tore the material to the right of the joint except for the lower 1 1/2 inches. Some of the cracks in the other four failed trimboards occurred near a scarf joint (within 1 - 2 inches), and did not migrate to the joint itself! The joints were all glued with Azek glue although some joints were glued with Gorilla glue. The screws were pre-drilled near all the joints to hold everything flush while the glue dried. If you look at the Azek instructions, they indicate that the fasteners can go "through" the scarf joint, or closely positioned on either side. I recall we did both depending on whether it was frieze, facia, rake and what it was fastened to (plywood packing for freize boards or 2X material for rakes and facia). I purchased and installed myself with two experienced trim carpenters, but this was our first time with Azek. I did a lot of research here a BT and talked to a number of installers, talked directly with Azek on a number of occasions and I believe we followed their installation recommendations without fail.
Don't apologive for asking questions, though, we're all here to learn and if this is a problem with Azek or my installation, it is important for everyone to know about it. In my case it is my own home and I will not be happy if I continue to have problems or have to go to great lengths to repair the breaks, but I can deal with it once I know what has gone wrong. For many of you this would mean work that you have to re-do which costs you twice (once for the repair and once for lost time you could be doing something more profitable)
This stuff has a lot of potential and I like the look. It is not particularly hard to work with and the maintenance free aspect is something that has great appeal. It does go against the 100 year rule though, and I hope we can understand what has gone wrong!
Edited 12/22/2004 8:27 pm ET by Darin
darin... i have no idea.. i will tell you this..
when we have long runs we use a scarf joint and i use a butt joint on my corners..
and i catch grief from my lead man.. he want to mitre and weld the corners..but i don't trust Azek nor the same stuff we use .... Koma
on long runs i want everything to slip.. if we 're putting it up on a 50 deg. day, i'll have 'em leave the scarf joint open about a 6d nail. if it gets colder.. it'll open some more... if it get's warmer it can slide and close without buckeling
the butt joint corner can open and close..
on small,tight, work we glue and miter.. but only if the material is small enough to move within it's tolerances..
there is no thermoplastic that i know of that can be constrained without asking for trouble..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I think you are right, about trying to constrain a thermoplastic material, I don't think anyone realizes the forces that expansion and contraction can generate. I happened to be in the garage when the piece failed (picture posted) and it sounded like the deer hunters were in the backyard! I had a sinking feeling when I went outside since I had noticed two other small cracks on the rake trim. Then I inspected all of the long runs and found a total of five cracks. Two are much worse than the one I posted, but they are on facia boards that will be covered by gutters later, so they will not be too noticeable. I did notice that they are all within 1 - 2 inches of a glued (welded) scarf joints, so tell your lead man to buy the coffee and donuts tomorrow!
The local Azek rep is supposed to call me to schedule a visit, so I'll let you know what he has to say.
I don't think there will be any problems with short runs or glued miter joints around posts, wraps, etc., but once the coefficient of expansion X length gets to be 1/16" or more, I think there could be problems. That probably means any length under 6 feet can most likely be constrained, after that you may have a point even though the manufacturer's think otherwise. Ironically in my case, the facia on my front porch is nearly 43 feet with two welded scarf joints on 5/4 X 8 material and no cracks so far! (I almost wish I had not typed that!) Wish me luck!
Darin:
I used Koma (same as azek) to wrap my deck posts and trim the band of my deck this summer. We just had single digit temps in NJ last week, and I ran out to see what happened-- everything is as tight as when I put it together.
I think your problem is installation. Azek/Koma moves as much or more as wood, so you must plan for it. I would not use screws, except to pin one end and allow the other end to move freely. Nails allow much more movement. When I wrapped my posts, I glued the mitered joints, but I nailed only on two faces of the post so as to allow for expansion and contraction on the other two faces. On the long runs (18 feet) of the band-trim, I allowed one end to move at will. See:
http://home4.netcarrier.com/~painter/images/deck-below.jpg
I think Azek/koma is good stuff, you just need to plan for the movement. Maybe now you can drill out some of your screws and patch up the holes. Replace with stainless nails which will allow more movement and don't over-nail.
J Painter
I have just started using this matl in small places, being conservative with new products, but will be following this thread. I second the idea of linking the Azec rep to this conversation. He/they has a lot of us to adress with his answers
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I thought I'd bump this thread again since there was a lot of interest and many are starting to see more and more of this cellular PVC trim products like Azek, Koma, and a new one I just heard about, I think it is called Versatrim or something like that.
I had a representative out last week to take photos of the fractured trim and the Azek engineers are supposed to be looking at the the evidence now. I hope they come back with some information soon.
I am staring to wonder if there might have been a problem with the product or if it was older material. The last work that we did was the front porch (about 43') and it has seen temperatures as low as -5F with no problems. It is interesting that this span is nearly twice as long as the other spans that have cracked and so far no sign of distress.
I'll keep everyone informed as this develops....
Darin
I was thinkin about this thread today actually,
so thanks for keeping us posted.
I used a generic Plastic Brickmold as window trim.(Menards) 300 of feet I'd bet. I even ripped some of it for a couple of tight locations. It hasn't let loose nor cracked but I'm waiting for it to peel like an onion.
The structure of that stuff is like any plastic formed in a thick crossection. it has a skin on the outside with foamy interior. I've had it installed for 3 years in it so far but the skin effect of the extrusion makes me wonder what repair treat I'll be doing in another ten.
Anyone paint this stuff? What happens? As it is mine is white and I like it that way but I wonder what UV will do to it over the years.
This was filler free it seemed. Azek has some sort of filler doesn't it?Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
We were about to trim out a porch, and were thinking seriously about using Azek -- until I read of your experience. So, like many others, I am anxious to hear what the Azek people have to say about your situation. Thanks for taking the time on this..............
I know everyone is anxiously awaiting the information from Azek. I will wait until next week to see what they have to say. I may even do as some of you have suggested and copy this thread and send it to some of the Azek representatives.
In the meantime, I appreciate all of your comments and support. This is especially helpful when we are getting exposed to and using these new products. The technology is moving so fast that this forum is a great way for all to collect their experiences so that we can learn together. Hopefully most manufacturer's are upstanding and support their products, but some of this is so new, only time will tell if the product quality is worthy of the claims.
Darin
Any updates from the Azek reps?
Funny you should ask. After a visit about a month ago from the local distributor, an Azek representative is coming to the jobsite tomorrow to inspect the cracks and let me know what happens next. I'll post an update later this week after I meet with the representative.
Ok, great! I've got a stack of Azek trimboards sitting there that i'm gonna be installing as Frieze boards next week. Now you've got me spooked!
It's had me moderately spooked too, so I can hardly wait...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My brother has got approx. $3,000 worth sittingin his garage, just waiting to be put up. But I forget if itsAzek or another brand, but it is solid p.v.c.
I thought the Azek rep was coming today, but it turns out it is actually next Monday, so I'll post a message as soon as I can after the visit. My intention is not to "spook" anyone, since I am still very impressed with the product, but I do need to know what went wrong in these couple places where it has cracked. I am convinced if you are not concerned about leaving an unglued joint on long spans (over 16') then I don't think you will have a problem. The material will contract about 3/16 every 16 feet. So worst case is you will have a slight opening in the very cold of winter, but it will be tight as can be during the summer. Mike Smith's method may be the way around this problem. I glued all on the long spans at the scarf joints according to the manufacturer's instructions and that is where the problem developed. It could be that the material had some defects, the glue was bad, or there is another problem yet to be determined. However, the longest spans that I have are on my front porch which is over 43' long and has two such joints and it looks as good as the day we installed it.
Installing anything involves a certain skill. Some materials require more skill than others. We all jjust need to understand the limitations for any material we use. I suspect that wood is slightly more forgiving near the edge of those limitations
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Very interested in this.I'm bidding a job that requires a lot of some sort of "maintenance free" exterior trim. Let us know what you find out.
Good post Darin.
You should copy and paste this thread for the rep to read.
I don't have any answers for you.
I would be extremely dissapointed if I were in your place.
I have only used Koma, once. I created a jamb extension casing unit as a whole for a tub/shower with a window in it.
It hasn't been there long so I can't remark other than the fact that I was amazed at it's workability, and what I thought would be it's permanence. Sure beat f/j primed.
To you and Mike; would butt joints be better, or perhaps a non-glued scarf??
Darin, don't forget to come back with the end results, and good luck.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
There is a caulking product specificly formulated for Azek and other PVC bassed trim. Perhaps instead of glueing the joints you leave the nessasary gap, put in backer rod, and then the caulking. Its not supper flexible but it does have some give and its formulated to stick to the PVC.
I can't offer any help, but thanks for sharing as I have some to put up
and appreciate the heads up.
Please keep us posted.
I have never heard of Azek what is it made of, what lengths, widths, what other applications is it used for? thanks.
Darin - You mentioned you used Azek glue and Gorilla glue. Is there a chance you glued the Azek to the substrate in the vicinity of the joints? Just a wild guess, but maybe that's constraining the material's need to move with temp fluctuations. Azek glue alone probably wouldn't adhere to the underlying structure.
Bill.
This board is mitered and welded at the corners, right? What appears to have happened is that the extreme cold acted to shorten the board. However, since it was glued and welded at both ends, it couldn't go anywhere. Thus, it finally snapped at a point where there was a fastener, which reduced cross-sectional area and provided a mechanical stress-raiser, making that location the weakest link in the chain, so to speak.
Very interesting failure.
Can you tell us more about when you installed this stuff? Was it just last week, or during the summer, etc.? What was the temperature at the time of installation?
If my assumptions are correct, perhaps the thing to do in the future is leave such double-constrained boards a bit long. That way, when they contract, there is some place to go. It doesn't exactly make for a beautiful installation, but other than providing some sort of covering sleeve to hide expansion/contraction gaps, I don't know what you could do.
Like all others here, I am very interested to see how this one turns out.
Find out from the Azec guys what the coeffiecient of thermal expansion/contraction is for this stuff. We can then compare it to that of wood for giggles.
Firebird,
I think that Mike Smith was saying exactly what you are suggesting....that is not to glue the scarf joints, that is why his lead man complains, because he is like the lead finish man that I worked with and wants everything to look perfect! The non-glued joint would allow the material to move in both directions and while not looking perfect, does have serious mechanical benefits!
Bill W.,
I guess it is possible that some gorilla snot snuck out the back when we weren't looking and attached itself to the substrate. The only way to tell for sure would be to remove a section and do a post mortem. I am hoping to come up with a fix, so I don't have to remove it since the soffits are mitered into the facia and there is crown and shingle moulding on the frieze and rake boards. But if I have to take it apart, I'll send a piece to the CSI lab and have them look it over!
Ragnar,
I was thinking exactly the same thing that you were thinking, because at first, it did not seem logical. The trim was installed in June and July, and the temperatures in NW New Jersey were not unbearable. I would guess most of the stuff went up at around 70-80F. We did not leave any room for additional expansion since it should have been just about fully expanded. Intuitively, I thought that the cold temperatures would have pulled the joints apart slightly and some did, like the butt joints at the peaks, and where the rake facia meets the horizontal returns. I was confused about why the stuff broke in the middle. Then I thought the same as you did. Since it is held at both ends with miter joints and a liberal application of fasteners, I think the stuff was trying to pull the ends in, and since they won't move, the chain broke at the weakest point. It just so happens that it is at or near a scarf joint in mid span where we probably used more fasteners and have the largest reduction of area of the Azek material. I also think that the heat generated by the pneumatic nails and screws causes a slight weakening of the material.
Now for the scariest part.... The coefficient of expansion for Koma (and I suspect Azek) is 3.2 X 10 -5 in/in-F, which means my 43' facia board will theoretically move 3/4" with a 50 degree temperature change. Comparatively, Doug Fir's COE is about .25 X10 -5 in/in-F (in the axial direction) which means it would move only about 1/16" with the same 50 degree temperature change. I think I might leave the Christmas lights on until March!
darin.... so a "fix" would be to cut out an 8' or 9' section centered around the split.. but cut it out with a scarf ( we use 45 deg )...
in cold weather like this you can replace it loose .. say an 8d common gap at each end... in the summer the gaps will close and can even ride up on each other if it gets really hot..
i'd use a long section so the scarfs will be far enough apart so they won't be as noticeable..
i really had to stick to my guns on this... our scarfs were fairly visable.. and the owner was extremely dubious... guess what ?
i told her that she and i would always see the joint.. but as long as she didn't look up at them, no one else would see them ..
bet they would sure see your splits , though !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the additional info. 3/4" of an inch!! That's some serious shrinkage. :)
Somewhere else on this thread, someone suggested using simple butt joints at the outside corners, and not applying glue. In the future, this "free" end sounds like a good idea to address the mechanical issues of contraction/expansion on long runs.
Or maybe, like you said, you could strategically place Christmas lights to provide some additional heat.
What gauge nails should be used to install azek? I'm concerned using 16 gauge SS with all the expansion and contraction. That's alot of movement on a daily basis and over time I question nails alone working. Countersinking a nail in 5/8 material that is going to move 3/4" seems to me to be a problem waiting to happen.
FWIW - their website says this:
Expansion & Contraction
Just providing some info., I would be interested in what the rep has to say. Thanks for raising the issue.