So here is tale for you all….
My wife and I just bought a fixer-upper at a very nice neighborhood. The house had been neglected over the years and needs a lot of remodeling. Anyway, I call up a Washington DC area remodeler to come out and give me an estimate on total remodel of our 4 bathrooms. I call and get an appointment for 12noon. Now I emphasize that I really would like the owner-estimator to show up on time since I work in downtown DC and would need to get back to work. no later than 1:30.
So the dude shows up (you guessed it) 45 minutes late. I’m like okay, fine he is here, I’m here…. I’ll just tell him to hurry it up and wrap it up as quickly as possible. I open the door and say hello (get a barley audible hello back). I proceed to tell him that since he is late we need to hurry it up. I say to him:
“Did you know you were supposed to be here at Noon? Since you’re ….”
Before I could finish, he turns on his hills, says “Well I’m gonna go now, I don’t need this” and walks back to his car and drives away!!!
Did I say something or is the business that good for you guys?
Replies
You haven't been here long, have you?
well he should have been on time or at least called to say he would be late. but if you were being overly rude and upset about it then that is why he walked. that is the reason some of us are self employed so we can choose who we deal with and who we dont but he should have been on time. you can set your watch by me and i dont like it if someone is late to my appointments if i am going to be late i always call ahead that is what cell phones are for.
dont make sarcastic remarks like "did you know you were to be here at noon" of course he knew but somthing held him up
I am just finishing up building a house with my 72 year old mother(she wanted to learn how to be a carpenter). It is a modified stock plan, with appx 1380 sq ft. The main area is all vaulted and peaks at 12 feet. The outside walls are 8 feet. It has a jack and jill bath for the master that runs into an exercise room/guest room, a guest suite, all barrier free, entire house, extra insulation. So far all guests same comment is, 'How did you get this big house inside the little house we saw from the outside?'
Good design, great materials, built ins, window seat can double as sleeping area, and volume spaces. Also, I am a big believer in pocket doors and french doors.
My mother has lived in houses during her life from 350 sq feet to 5500 sf. She said the other day that this is now her fav. I hope so because it will be a year or two before we beuild another.
Good luck and I hope you find that less is more........ dan
hhairi,
Uh oh, now you have been added to "The List" and have to pay double.
KK
Another day in paradise.
Don't foget to get the check in the mail.
I'm in Southern Calif. the Hispanics from Mexico, Central America and South America are will to do most of the construction around here. I hear Lots of them are heading your way to take up the slack over the East Coast.
A New Jersey acquaintance called a painter for just his living room. Called a half dozen and only one showed up, so he hired him. The painter laid down his one cloth and put his cans on it and started to paint. The owner was alarmed, and said "aren't you going to move the furniture or cover it?" The painter's response was to pack up and leave.
Yup, and they work real cheap too. I hear they're shipping your job to India.
Well, he was wrong for not being on time, and/or not calling to say he would be late. You should have let a few minutes pass before asking about the tardiness, but his apology and excuse should have been the first words out of his mouth.
Probably what set him off was that he saw your confrontational attitude in the first few minutes to be a harbinger of how you would act during the rest of the job.
Do it right, or do it twice.
sorry for bein late must have dead air cause i tried to call. and yup business is that good right now lol
Harbinger? As in, I predict that it did not augur well for the contractor to undertake the client, as he foresaw a precursor to disaster that was heralded by portentious signs of emminent doom. Or words to that effect.
Aren't thesaurus' fun?
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Elcid said it well!
I'd a likely been righ alongside the late contractor dude. I try to be punctual, most times, I'm early, and I'm always polite to a fault. But when a potential client shopws signs of being intolerant about schedule, I can assume that they will be intolerant about any other imperfections that might surface while I am on their job, like the tiny little fact that I can't controll the weather, or predict how much rot i will find in the house to be repaired.
If I have to shut the water off for a day while she's living there, I'll buy dinner out for the family but anyone too intolerant will be sure that it is the wrong restaurant and rub my face in it.
Shoot, I'll even make a little dust while working there, and even though I do what I need to to control it, I can see at the door that I will get blamed for dust that has been in the house fore a year and that I only move around.
If traffic slows my morning arrival to work, I can expect to be locked out for the day and nned to work elsewhere except that some of my necessary tools are locked in the hosue so I have to go home for the day.
I also know that this customer will spend a certain amt of time practicing boring holes in my back with her hot eyes while I am working, and that simple distraction will cause me to get nervous enough to make some kind of mistake. I just hate it when it's an expensive one! Maybe I'll plan to make all my mistakes before i leave the hosue in the morning so that I'll be all out of them by the time I get to her house that day. Yeah. I think that'll work.
But then leaving all those mistakes laying around my house might get me in hot water with my DW. Add that to the fact that I'll be more nervous than normal from this job and I might end up getting divorced!
All this runs thru my mind in a milli-instant as I hear her comments and I turn around to race the other contractor back to the truck.
Are you sure you didn't get those words from the Thesaurii?.
Excellence is its own reward!
BTW,
Thanks for the laugh! You're surely not for real! You're just one of us in disguise and bored on a friday night, right?.
Excellence is its own reward!
you guys are terrible! I love it!
If we are going to be any more than 10 minutes late we call. The first words out of the guys mouth should have been an apology. Followed by what can I do to make the time up in order to keep you on time. I am fanatical on timeliness. Its one of the things that my repeat customers talk about. But in a larger area he might have had traffic issues etc. None the less he should have apologized. But business is that good! DanT
45 min. late in DC. Give me a break even the most up to date street guide will get you lost with all the streets that start and stop, not to mention the traffic.
And you allowed a whole 1.5 hours to go over 4 bathroom remodels then lecture him on wasting your time. Bawahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Unless the house plumbing is presently located on the outside plainly visable your outta your mind.
Sorry but the smartest and most realistic one at this meeting left you standing at the door. Since you have so much time and experience, do all the drawings and specs yourself then fax them to prospective contractors for a price. Here's hoping you don't miss anything cause it'll cost you.
________________________________________________________
ROTSFLMAO. : rolling on the SHOP floor, etc. rg
Not only is it good, it is never so bad I will take a job I perceive to be a problem. Been there done that. Selling books, tee shirts & dvd's. Did you have a phone he could reach you on?
The interrest rate the last day I checked was 5.5 percent. Most of the building industry is booming because the loan ratios show it. Now there is also a record amount of refinacing going on also . When that is done people like to tack some on for the remodel. To answer the only question you asked , yes its a very good time. It rocks as a matter of fact.
On the other point , do you yell in the doctors office ? What about you car mechanic ?
The third and final point is that we can now at least pick who we want to work for and its going both ways for a change. He should have called , or offered some kind words , but I figgure you might have had a flag on your face also from your typing.
Tim Mooney
:-)
Well let me clear up some points for you gents...
1) My tone with this guy was NOT at all rude, despite the actual sentence used.
2) I called his office and explained the scope of work and estimate job. I was told it will take 45min to 1 hour max.
3) My two other estimates for this job have been in the 130-150k range. This not chump change (not to me anyway). I don't excpect the contractor to be perfect (Lord knows I'm not). But you better believe I want someone who is a professional in manner as well as in action. I'm not a tire kicker but I have the right to get an estimate. He is not doing me a personal favor. That IS part of his job.
4) I'm a computer geek by profession and home-improvment enthusiast of moderate skills. I know when to DIY it and when to call in professional. The way things are going either I have to 1) wait 9 months for a highly sought after contractor, or 2) put up with so called 'professionals' with an attitude, or 3) do it myself. One thing is for sure, #2 is not going to happen.
5) The remodeling industry is in many ways a relationship business. If you're a fantastic remodeler but treat your customers like #### you won't be around when times are tough. So business is good, but you're fool if you think things will be like this forever and therfore you can screw people over, commit to an appointment and not show up, or be late and rude when you do show up, and etc. This guys didn't just lost my business. I have a few friends who like me have bought fixer uppers and are in need of good contractors. He lost that potential avenue of leads as well.
6) Maybe I'm lucky I didn't hire him. If this is the attitude he brings to a potential customer no telling what he does when he cashes my check.
So business is good for this guy and he walks away? Well I say keep walking pal and don't let the door hit you on the #### your way out!
Feel better now?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Oh Yeah!
hhairi
Profressionals as you put it are different in all fields. As a doctor you may not realize what this guy has been throw not just menatally but "physically" all week. I think you're missing the point here.
Look at different trades differently....He may have been off base but you have to regear your attitude to different people is all
BE well
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
well, you didn't marry the first girl you dated , either..
keep looking buddy.. and chalk that one up to first date jittersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
MAybe he did marry the first girl he dated
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You said some things I agree with but I strongly disagree with this
but I have the right to get an estimate. He is not doing me a personal favor. That IS part of his job.
I curious as to how, where and by who you were granted this right. If I was to give you something of value (a professional estimate, and possible specifications and advice, for example) then from my point of view I am doing you a very personal favor if I do not charge you for it. Whether or not it is part of my job is my decision, not yours. This is not an entitlement program.
I have a few friends who like me have bought fixer uppers and are in need of good contractors. He lost that potential avenue of leads as well.
Based on the fact that I would have just met you, this is useless information. When someone tells me this up front, it makes me really nervous. Why? Because your disclosure of this information can only be in the hopes that it will benefit you somehow. Its kind of boastful too. In the course of my first meeting I like to listen enough to determine the social habits of a prospective client. Usually you can get a lot of information about whether they will be an asset to you referral wise.
I worked for a lot of people and for months at a time, over many hours of the day, and on weekends. I have learned that people who make this type of comment usually can't back it up. You might be on their job for four months and never see a visitor, or hear a phone conversation with a friend.
Additionally, the dollar value of the job generally wouldn't mean squat as to whether or not it is an attractive job to pursue. So labeling it "chump change" or not is irrelevant.
The important perspective to gain as a homeowner is that the initial meeting with a contractor is a two way interview. As Mike said, its a date. I used to think I wanted them all, but I might only want a very small percentage of them.
I think you are just a jilted lover, upset that someone wasted your valuable time. You'll get over it. Eventually you will get good at weeding out the flakes before you commit your time to them. Was there anything in you phone conversation with this contractor that may have tipped you off? I'm curious. Tom
>As Mike said, its a date.
I like the analogy! And I still have to learn that bit about not wanting them all. (Of course, I can't imagine calling the contractor and asking if he's busy Fri night!!!)
This would have been soooo easy to avoid it seems. Instead of pointing out the contractor's flaw, and casting this as a case of fault-finding instead of cooperation and thus putting everyone on edge, imagine if the HO had said, "I still need to be back to work by 1:30. Does that give you enough time to see everything you need to see?"
"I still need to be back to work by 1:30. Does that give you enough time to see everything you need to see?"
E-e-e-xactly! If he would have treated the contractor the same way he would treat a co-worker, maybe he would have got a free estimate.
Some get it, some don't.Tom
" I have the right to get an estimate. He is not doing me a personal favor. That is part of his job"
Tommy ,I have to laugh at this one as well. You see, one of the perks of owning your own small business ( as I bet YOU know) is that only I determine what my job is. I decide who I am willing to give a free estimate to.
SO---if I decide that I am never going to work on houses owned by people with red hair, or work on houses owned by electrical engineers,or work on houses painted anything other than white with green trim---I CAN.
I will go even further----I have an area that I personally have red lined. I won't work there. HAS nothing to do with race,religon,or anything other that good old money. Simply put----the people in that particular area are kinda snobs and I would rather not deal with 'em.
Gee, is it illegal to redline an area because it's TOO affluent?
Areas that are unattractive to me include,
Ghettos
Houses where I have to park my trailer more than ten feet away
Cul de sacs
More than 50 feet of stone driveway
More than two stories
Houses that don't have three prong outlets
Steep driveways
But I never turn down a rich snob if the price is right.
Tom
Tommy,
none of those things you listed bother me in the slightest. I do prefer to work within a 10 minute radius of home----and often work within a 10 block radius of home.
Now these particular snobs?---they ain't as rich as they want you to think. they have a neighboring sub-urb,where some real money resides, where I will happily work( even though it is well outside my preferred 10 minute radius)-----because the people I have met THERE have always acted well. There is another area in town at about the same economic level as my "snobs" that I also happily work----because they are often "old house enthusieists". So my aversion to the snobs?-----It's not really the money---and sometimes the money just ain't worth it.
BTW---I had a friend who was in primarily painting and wall papering. He told me once that once May arrived each year he wouldn't work in houses that didn't have air conditioning! He has since semi-retired after marrying a doctor( also a long time friend)
Some of those same things rubbed me raw but I chose not to respond because it is obvious from the tone of hharii that his/her life is all about "me, I, what I deserve and have a right to get"
A person like that is not worth arguing or discussing anything with. The original contractor estimator saw all that in a flash. That makes his time worth plenty..
Excellence is its own reward!
ditto. you rock Piffin. rg
Piff
Sooooo....you're becoming a radical now? Musta been the time you spent on "The Farm"..lol.....great answer bro
Be well
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Piff
By ‘I have a right to an estimate’ I don’t mean a god given right or anything like that…
Look, when you walk into a car dealership and the salesperson spends an hour with you walking around the lot, answering questions, etc. Does that entitle him to your business if the price is not right? Should the salesman get upset that you wasted his valuable time?
Giving free estimate for a job is part of the norm in your industry not an exception. If the contractor in question didn't want to then his office should not have offered it. So the idea that the homeowner should be grateful for having the contractor show up does not fly with me. I thank any contractor that takes the time to drop by and bid for my job but I don’t consider that an act of favor on their part.
A number of you mentioned that since I live in a certain area, I must a snob. Nonsense. I’m not rich. I put myself through college working as a painter (took me 8 years to finish). I know the value of hard work and how hard/honest the people in the trades work. As I said before, my tone with this dude was not at all disrespectful, despite the wording of my sentence.
No it is not ALL ABOUT ME. If the guy had taken the time to call and/or explain he was running a bit late I would have understood. However, I’m the customer and he wants to provide a service. Whatever happened to treating your customers with curtsey and understanding (that most of you on this site demand of homeowners)? BTW, I think the HO abbreviation speaks volumes of the type of mentality displayed by some on this site. Not saying its on purpose, but could be a Freudian slip. No?
One more thing, I'm the dude who put up a message a few months ago about re-facing my stairs. Most shut me down. You and a few others where kind enough with your good suggestions and input. The hardwood floors and the stair refacing are done and look great. Thanks for the input.
Peace
hhariri,
As I pointed out to you EARLIER-----
that contractor who left you waiting---without the courtesy of a phone call----may very well have called you REPEATEDLY without getting through.
Personally---I have been experiencing absolutely wretched cel phone service the last week or so---both incoming and outgoing. It's entirely possible your contractor may have been experiencing something similar---when almost everyone ya call---or everyone who calls you gets a "this number is turned off or out of the service area "message.
but you jumped his case before a very likely explanation ever had a chance to be raised.
imagine the CONTRACTORS view---if he calls you ,say 5 times, at the number YOU said you could be reached at---with no response------then when he arrives you jump HIS case ?
Now, if it makes you feel better ----you can dream that things will slow down and that "rude" contractor will finally get what he has coming to him.On the other hand----he probably has 50 former customers that think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread,all singing his praises-----for every one disgruntled NON_CUSTOMER like you. I bet he does just fine.
>BTW, I think the HO abbreviation speaks volumes of the type of mentality displayed by some on this site. Not saying its on purpose, but could be a Freudian slip. No?
Ummmm, no.
What's a better abbreviation for homeowner? And why see it as something negative--wouldn't that start with a W, anyway--and not a positive like Santa's Ho Ho Ho? Projecting a bit? Does DH mean dear husband or "duh"? This sort of snide comment is just the perfect way to make friends and influence people. I'll take you at your word that you were nice and polite when you told the guy he was late, but I'd question if in fact there is a nice and polite way to tell a stranger who knows he is late that he is in fact late.
Cloud...
I had the same thoughts.
Just when I'm starting to think this guy may have a point.....
he slips in that "attitude" that tells the whole story.
The contractor in the original story was probably just a good read on body langauge.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Ok, I'm trying here - really trying - but I'm still missing what has everyone so completely bent about this guy.
By my count he has responded to a non-stop thrashing with four posts trying to clarify his point of view. So far he hasn't called anyone a name, at least that I noticed, yet several of you have labeled him with all kinds of names and ascribed him all kinds of unflattering characteristics.
What specifically makes you think he is a wealthy, arrogant, snobbish, unreasonable twit that has earned this kind of abuse? He just sounds like a guy who can roll with the punches but will only take so much before he offers a shot or two back to me. And the fact is, the contractor did act like a complete jerk no matter what this HO did. Yea, it was kind of funny in a "gee I wish I had the nerve to do that" kind of way but he was an absolute jerk. I wager not one of you would have been as courteous to him as this guy was. I sure wouldn't have been.
I'd have to say, hajararri (or whatever his name is) is one of the few around here at the moment not displaying a lot more attitude than the situation warrants. Good grief, he's even passing out thank you's and compliments with his his rejoinder.
Time for a few cold ones and a breath of fresh air. I'll buy if you guys will just let that poor feller get off the floor and dust himself off a little. Geesh... what are you anyway - a bunch of grumpy old construction workers or something? :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Time for a few cold ones and a breath of fresh air. I'll buy
Well I ain't particapated, but I'll take a free cold one...
Geesh... what are you anyway - a bunch of grumpy old construction workers or something? :-)>
Opposed to what, a grumpy architect???
BTW Class started again today, ugh....
Anyway, There's not nearly enough information here to truly know what happened that morning, but I got to say if I showed up somewhere, and some greeted me, in any tone of voice, Did I know I was supposed to be there 30/45 min earlier. I probably wouldn't have taken it so well myself.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
> I wager not one of you would have been as courteous to him as this guy was. I sure wouldn't have been.
You'd lose the bet, K. I've had people late here by days, and when they get there, you focus on the task at hand, not on getting in a little remark or two to prove that you have one up on them. Those little remarks are killers, and you just gotta train yourself to not say them. Then you learn what the person is like, and incorporate their lateness, for example, into your planning. Or you decide that you don't want to work with them be/c of their habits, rather than them deciding to not work with you be/c of your snideness.
>And the fact is, the contractor did act like a complete jerk no matter what this HO did.
We have the homeowner's word on this (but you realize he's questioning your motives, too, for using "HO"), but he's gonna give his own behavior the best possible spin and the contractor's behavior the worst possible spin. I wonder if the contractor would say that the "you're late" comment was said in a benign way. I don't know. I'll give each the benefit of the doubt. But just as he couldn't resist the sarcastic comment about using the HO abbreviation, I can't imagine a nice way that someone could tell me I'm late when I already knew it.
I don't see people being harsh to him. I didn't say anything nasty, and neither did Jeff. We just aren't sure he's the innocent he passes himself off as.
I was over at FHO web site and everybody over there is saying the oposite as what I read here.
Nobody here was there, with the exception of hhariri, you cant expect a bunch of contractors to take the side of the HO.
Kevin you have some good points, but this same kind of discussion goes on around here every once in awile and its the same thing.
Its about as foolish as me trying to argue with Bob Walker about something stupid that Warren Buffett said.
Doug
Guess I'm not winning any points here but I'm in deep enough that I might as well let you guys know that I thought the "HO" comment was actually pretty funny. I guess it takes a fellow smart alec to appreciate this guy's humor.
I mean it wasn't as funny as the comments about the "HO" that objected to CAG's age recently but I'd give it a solid 8 on the 1-10 humor scale.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
HO that objected to my age?
Must o' missed that one.
and I'm as big of smartazz as anyone, but still wouldn't respond well to that comment, especially given the fact that I don't know this person from Adam. Sure if I'm late, and one of my friends says something like that I'm ok with it, but a stranger?
If it were me, I'd a probably offered up what ever my explanation was, unless I was having a particularly bad morning, in which case I probably would have done the same as the contractor did.
Either way, starting off the "relationship" in that manner isn't the best idea in my opinion... Sets the wrong tone for someone you're going to be spending a lot of time with in the near future.
One thing I noticed a few years ago, was my attitude needed an adjustment, or at least the way I presented myself, I might not think I'm being a d!ck, but the perception of the other person might say I am.
Not saying I've changed much, but it's something everyone should think about.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Can't believe you forgot that one. You commented that a lady home owner seemed "concerned" that you were so young when you showed up to replace her deck. I think it was Gunner that responded that the only reason she was was having the deck replaced in the first place was so she would have a young hotty to look at and that she was probably very dissapointed. I dang near popped a rib I was laughing so hard.
I'm gonna go ahead and drop this thread like a hot rock now cause I can see that I'm about the only one around here with a goofy grin on my face and I'm not all that anxious to have it wiped off by the lot of ya.
I STILL THINK THE CONTRACTOR WAS A JERK TOO... catch ya later! :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Oh whoops. That other business calculation I forgot to include (sorry)...
No free estimate=attractive deckbuilder, any age
I think that one is from my last class at business school (*thumbing through old textbook...hmmmm*)
>Guess I'm not winning any points here but I'm in deep enough that I might as well let you guys know that I thought the "HO" comment was actually pretty funny. I guess it takes a fellow smart alec to appreciate this guy's humor.
Well, there's no law that says we all have to see it the same way. With me, a story gets told, and I form a picture of the characters in it based on people I've met in my past. I've lived lots longer than you, so I have more characters to draw from! <G> If the HO/Freud thing was meant as humor, then he really schnookered me. It's happened before. Maybe I'm projecting an image of my neighbor, who can't let a situation pass without making some irritating crack. I have the same, "I don't need this" reaction as the contractor did.
Hi--I'm an HO too and actually never took HO to mean anything but Home Owner. Because, well, "Ho" would be spelled with a little "o". Two capital letters signal "acronym" to me so, well, I've never been offended. As long as my husband doesn't pronounce DH (Dear Husband) as "duh"...I'm okay I guess.
I guess I'm itchin to stick my nose in about one thing--and will probably regret it. I've found that not all people in business for themselves, or working for anybody else, do things the same way.
When I had my own business, I gave free estimates. Because I had a VERY high profit margin business relative to selling a product or service that required materials. As a consultant, I rarely had to buy materials or eat subcontracting fees and never had to buy liability insurance, wait in line for permits, or anything else. It was me and my car and my phone and a computer and some digital media equipment that was depreciated over time. I charged by the day...if someone wanted something extra and wanted me for another day, they paid for the day. If it was a fixed fee project, it was 9 out of 10 times a project with standard variables and very few surprises (as long as I could manage "scope creep"). So I could afford to give a free estimate and I usually could do this over the phone. No travel time, traffic or anything else involved.
You could not PAY me to be a project manager for retail homeowner projects. I think I would go beserk in a day. Because a craftsperson is expected to:
1) drive to the client site with no reimbursement of gas or travel time either way. (When you work for a company as a consultant, they generally reimburse you for one way OR if you are doing work on your cell phone while driving--not recommended for safety reasons--you can bill the time.)
2) bid on a project where it seems like 50% or MORE variables are unknown. Either you can't see into the walls before the project starts and you don't know what you are going to find, or there are details that haven't really been thought through for some reason or another by the homeowner, or the weather/suppliers/subcontractors/permitPeople are delayed/outToLunch/etc.
3) work with consumers who don't buy this type of work more than once generally and who need to be educated on the work/how work is planned/how buying process or relationship works/difference in materials/etc.
4) how the end result is measured is not standard at all. It is subjective. And home shows which make hard things look so easy and like they can be completed in a 30 minute time span aren't helping.
5) I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of.
So, either you are going to do a lot of free estimates and adjust your prices accordingly to cover your margins OR you are going to choose appraisals and customers carefully (even if that is based on a 10 minute conversation) OR you are going to charge for estimates to cover same margin.
Car salespeople have no overhead. No materials. And built-in profit margins, incentives and kick backs from manufacturers (unless they are awful negotiators...) They make their money showing you around for an hour. They wear out some shoe leather and that's it. They don't have to pay for liability insurance, special tools, subcontractors OR further training (or training at ALL!) If the weather is bad, they will whip out an umbrella or stick to the showroom. Now DELIVERING your car after you've ordered it, whole other story. And they are selling a COMMODITY. No surprises. And not their problem if the car doesn't work right...talk to the Service Department.
I'm not commenting on whether the contractor was right/wrong to walk out. I wasn't there. This is only to respond to the beliefs around free estimates. And even if you don't agree with me, that's cool. But there is a profit margin equation in all business (if that business wants to stay in business) and I think that free estimates in contracting--with all of the extra cost surprises a contractor would have to eat--are a nice extra or something someone may have to do in leaner times to get work when there may be a lot of competition in the 'hood. And we probably all get what we pay for, regardless of the type of business.
peace.
"Car salespeople have no overhead. No materials. And built-in profit margins, incentives and kick backs from manufacturers (unless they are awful negotiators...) They make their money showing you around for an hour. They wear out some shoe leather and that's it. They don't have to pay for liability insurance, special tools, subcontractors OR further training (or training at ALL!) "
That is really not a realist comparision. You are comparing an EMPLOYEE in one business to the OWNER in another business.
Compare the cost of the building, the property taxes, the salaries, the interest, the interest, and the interest that the dealership owner has to the contractors overhead.
Propbably the closes comparison would be to a realestate agent. They can do months of "free" work. And then only get paid at the every end IF every thing works out.
But in reality all of those business are so different that you can't look at one part of them say well one buiness does that, so the other buisness should also.
Actually within construction, the buisness models between someone like a sunroom distributor/installer, a design-built remodeler, and a basic trade like paint that you really trying to compare the practices of one to the other is risky.
Edited 8/22/2003 9:31:51 AM ET by Bill Hartmann
Bill,
The car salesman comparison was brought up in a earlier note. My note refers to that note. See note # 33853.82
I know it's not a good comparison. I was hoping that was my point. Having said that, I use these few examples because, I suspect, that people establish expectations of other industries based on their experience in their own. When we've talked about "free estimates" in this thread, we've referred to: conctractors, doctors, car salespeople, computer programmers (and now I've brought in my own experience) consultants."
You're right that it is risky. And that is why I wanted to make my points in reponse to the previous note. Thanks.
J
Edited 8/22/2003 10:04:51 AM ET by jmo
An interesting issue has surfaced again.
Free Estimates? Free! FREE? FREE! FREEEEEEEE???????Ditch
Could be that I'm wrong but I based what I said on your words here and your responces.
Is it possible that this estimator reads your words the same way that I do?
And if so, is it possible that you have absolutely no clue how othe5rs perceive you? In my limited experiences, that is one of the syumptoms of the narcissist. Consider this possibility only if you are interested in the opinions of other people in your life.
As for this statement, "Giving free estimate for a job is part of the norm in your industry not an exception" I don't know it to be true except in limited areas of the market after over thirty years of experience. Search threads here about estimates and free estimates to update yourself. It's probably half and half nationwide and mostly in limited ranges of work. Bathroom renovations is not likelyu one where free estimates is common, IMO.
So by making that statement, you again show yourself as one who knows more about this contracting business than the contractor in trying to educate me. Again, a sign of the self centered ego.
Let me just leave you with a bit of friendly advice that I hope is worth as much as any other I may have given you - The world does not revolve around you. You are only one of the spokes in the wheel, not the hub..
Excellence is its own reward!
Self centered? My posts are here for you to read (and read and read again). If that’s your take, well so be it.
It seems that most of you hold the homeowners in low regard anyway. Its no wonder so many homeowners can recall remodeling tales of horrors and the contractor from HELL.
Know what? I’ll print up this entire thread and will present it up front to any potential contractor I will hire. I want them to know exactly whom they are dealing with. If they don’t want the job. That’s more than okay. Better to weed out the ones with a chip on their shoulder early.
I'm willing to bet not one of you (and I mean not a single one of you) who has been defending that rude jerk can work up the nerve to print out this entire thread, identify yourself and your handle and present it to the next ‘HO’ you’re after. You’ll have the door slammed on your face before you could say, “Excellence is its own reward”.
And do you know why you won’t do it? Cause money talks and BS walks pal.
Well,, I hope that you will forgive me for coming a little late to the discussion, but I wanted to let the others finish their tirades first. It often appears to me, that the quicker I speak out, the worst the outcome will be. The real lesson here is that neither one of you got done what you were trying to accomplish. No new job for him, whether or not he needed it badly, you are still looking for the contractor to create better bathrooms. Did he act poorly? YES! Did you improve the situation? NO! Would I have done better? It doesn't matter, I was not there! Hopefully, you both learned something for your troubles, although I am hesitant to think that either of you have grown much from the time wasted, which is all it ended up being. I do small jobs, as a handy man, try to avoid estimates, and will certainly apologize if I am late. But we are all different, in many ways, and nobody has all the answers. So good luck, I hope your house turns out well, and if we can help with advice, at least some of us will try. Your job is to remember that just because you don't want to marry them, does not mean that they may not turn out an excellent project. Some shortcomings can be overloooked, but you get to choose which ones.
Dan
hhariri,
Your ever increasing arrogance is simply amazing.Your "jerk" contractor is looking more and more shrewd.
Still not the SLIGHTEST comprehension on your part that there may have been a good reason your "jerk" was late.
Maybe the meaning your holy 12:00-1:30 window was crystal clear to YOU----but maybe the "jerk" was under the impression that arriving anytime between 12:00-1:30 met the timetable.
and maybe,just maybe you gave him an inadequate address-----didn't specify properly which sub-urb? Gave your adress as 123 Walnut-----but forgot to specify Walnut Street,lane,avenue ,circle,parkway etc.---is that even a possibility?
THAT's why you got pounded here----your un-willingness to even consider any other possible view-----for even the few seconds it would have taken to get the guy inside your door.
BTW------the spirit of your bet? I would have to say----YOU LOSE.
I refer almost all of my prospective customers to my article that FHB was kind enough to publish-----and I direct many of them to this web site to gather info on their OTHER projects. I don't write anything here that I am ashamed of---and I don't hide behind a screen name. SHAZLETT is as close to Stephen Hazlett as this web site's current incarnation will let me use.I put my money where my mouth is---in the marketplace every day.
Maybe I gave the wrong address? Maybe I gave him the wrong house number? Maybe, maybe, maybe....
Listen pal, I gave him the corrrect address. I gave him corrrect #. I was told iby his office it would take 45 minutes. I made it very clear I need to get back to work. I called the day before the meeting to confirm the appointment. I was told he would be there by 12noon. I did what I was supposed to do. And you keep saying maybe this and maybe that. You seem very willing to let him off easy and blame me for everything. I don't think thats very fair.
I just hope one day you make an appointment with someone and they show up late, waste your time and be rude to you. And then have to hear about that MAYBE you gave them the wrong address. Maybe its your fault for not being understanding, maybe, maybe, maybe....
hhariri, I feel your pain man, but the bottom line here is: the world actually revolves around them. You aren't going to win this fight no matter how many times you write down what happened because they aren't reading it through a HO's eyes. You were knocked out before the bell even dinged with this crowd. Piffin is one of the most arrogant self centered know-it-all SOB's in this entire cyber world and once your dirt in his eyes your dirt forever with him and his followers. If you told the estimator to be there at noon, and you were 45 minutes late, would he say anything to you? Nope...he'd be gone already, bitching about you wasting his time! IMO, you did the right thing with this guy, maybe he'll be on time for the next...all he had to do was say, "sorry sir, I was late because blah, blah, blah..." and you'd be happy right?
You did screw up when you posted it here because some of these guys are like gang members that will back up their "brothers" no matter what the offence.
Good luck!
You’re probably right.
I still say not one of these guys would print this entire thread and show it to their next potential customer. No homeowner is going to let them through the front door with that attitude.
Ahhhh, the hypocrisy!
You're a kook. Print the dicussion up and hand it out?
For a guy who is in such a hurry, you've got a lot of time on your hands.
You were rude. He was rude. After you said whatever you said to him, he read the writing on the wall. The chances of landing that job just flew away.
Judging by the budget you gave us for the job, it would probably have taken a good 10 to 15 hours to prepare a thorough and accurate proposal for your job. Why would he waste his time? He knew he blew any chance to get the job as soon as he saw your reaction to his tardiness. Bids may be "free" to the customers in your area, but they cost contractors money. He simply went on to greener pastures. John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Well, now that this discussion has gone so far downhill that it's reached the gutter, it's a good time to add my 2 cents (I hate to have to travel) ;-)
(Great Hawkeye Pierce line in M*A*S*H: "I'd get my mind out of the gutter, but it's attached to my body.")
JMO, I thought you had a really nice analysis...in fact, I saved it. Thanks. Might show something like it to potential clients, explaining why I'm so expensive (ha! I wish). You're new to the board, I hope you and your sense of humour stick around. I also hope you'll start a thread talking about some of the lowlife business leaders you've met in your consulting travels.
Kevin, Svenny, CAP, CAG, and a few others (sorry, wasn't keeping track), certainly had some intelligent things to say.
Molten/Rusty, shouldn't you be at a Home Depot stealing things? But hey, I'm Canadian, so you can always retaliate with some lame-o Canuck bashing, if it'll make you feel better.
HHairiri (spelling? sorry), I thought the guys were a little rough on you. I would have called to advise of the delay, and the first words out of my mouth would have been an apology. If you rubbed me the wrong way I wouldn't walk out on you, but you would never have gotten a callback from me, let alone an estimate. I've looked at plenty of expensive jobs that I never bid on because the potential customer caused me to do a "gut-check". On the other hand, I've eaten a lot of great homemade food from a lot of fantastic clients. I think I'm doing something right. However, hang around on this board for even a short time and you'll hear some client horror stories that, if you were in the business, would keep you awake nights.
However, now you're losing it. Just a suggestion: no point in flinging mud, even if you think it's deserved. (Yeah, I know I took a shot at Molten, but he's a troll and an admitted thief. I'm surprised he's allowed on the board.)
Hey, are you still looking for a contractor? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and look at the job, if you don't mind me staying with you while I work on it. How's your cooking? ;-)
Oh, and I always sign my name on my posts, because I don't expect to ever be embarassed by them (yeah, pretty egotistical of me :-)
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
View Image
Come on man! PLEASE go read my posts. I didn't call people names. Plenty of you did that to me. 50 to 60 posts ago there were referancees made to my wife!!! I was called a snub. Self-centerd, etc. etc.
You all make these comments and then you get all mad when someone dishes back.
Believe me I'm over it. I won't loose any sleep about that contractor. Plenty of wish in this sea.
I do agree with one thing you wrote. Time to move one. To all who had made constructive comments thanks and to the rest of you:
What goes around, comes around!
I always show up on time. I really hate being late. I often tell the client that if I don't show up it means I'm dead. I call if I am going to be ONE minute late. If someone was that late for me I would be mad too especially if he didn't right away offer an apology. You are better off that he left. You don't need flakes like that. The other posters that took the side of the GC are just amatuers that sit around all day on their computer on their secretary spreads and dish out drivel. There ARE a bunch here that hide behind their anonymous handle so they can slander anyone with impunity. I hate those chicken s__t cowards too.
Business is good, but not an excuse to be rude and inconsiderate. Good luck with your project.
Mike Callahan
Lake TahoeStart out slow. Then ease up.
You've got a pretty chicken #### definition of ametuer if you think posting your name makes you more right about anything. You are another one with a chip on your shoulder who thinks that you look bigger by putting somneone else down instead of by giving out good information.
FYI, There are a lot of good reasons for not using a real name on the internet, based on advise from web site security pros. As for me - anyone here who is trustworthy IMO, already has my name and contact information. but they are not the trolls with chips on their shoulders..
Excellence is its own reward!
hey, dog... pointing out to clueless harri that he didn't get what he wanted is not the same thing as taking the side of the estimator who was late..
harri has amptly demonstrated that he would probably not be getting a proposal from me.. but you're welcome to him.. matter of fact .. or matter of opinion.. you sound like you two could probably spend the rest of your natural lives in litigation since both of you are so perfect..
his type is nothing but warning bells and whistles to me.. Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I heard those warning bells too. Still ANYONE would be pi$$ed if someone is that late without a call or apology. So far I only heard one side of the story. I still say the GC was a flake. Maybe Harri left out the apology part or something else that would sway me to sympathise with the GC but I didn't hear it. I might not like Harri too and walk away if the slightest thing set him off. I would have to meet him myself though and make up my own mind.
The scope of the project sounded like it needed more time than Harri's lunch break and he should have set up a time that would be more open ended.
I try to be perfect but most of the time I'm just perfect enough. For some reason most people don't remember much except that you were late. It won't matter how perfect your work is. There is no excuse for being late. Sorry. My dad had seven kids and was always on time. I carry on the torch. If you are late then you are a FLAKE. Start out slow. Then ease up.
dog... remember harri's post #1.. it wasn't the GC, it was an estimator / salesman... with 3 or 4 more calls to make before beer-thirty..
hari stepped on his sh*t , and the guy had enuff sense to know he had greener pastures elsewhere..
if it was the GC, perhaps it would have been handled differently... it wasn't , and harri got what he deserved... one of the risks of delegating sales and estimating Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dogwood- you may have hit the nail on the head with this post. We've only heard one side of the story. Maybe, the estimator did try to offer an apology for his tardiness and got jumped before he could. Maybe he knew he was late and was trying to get right to business. Maybe he did apologise and the apology wasn't heard because the client was already pissed and wasn't listening. Maybe, Maybe, Maybe......
Ever see the movie Rashomon? Four people describe an event they've witnessed and the four stories barely even resemble each other.
The original poster is a homeowner asking for a pro point of view - He got it. Anybody that's been in business for any time at all has run across a jerk or two and been a jerk a time or two. My read on this guy is that I'd rather not work for him if I've got the choice. I've walked away from jobs before that have gotten done by others and apparently there was no problem. I've worked for other so called "problem customers" and had no problems. I also once walked away from a job after barely getting started. Four years and four contractors later, the job's still not finished. Some people are their own worst enemy.
The original question was" are you guys really that busy?" Yes. Yes I am.
I think there has been some good points of view in this thread that made me think about this situation and how it applies to my business, and how I would react given a similar circumstance.
This is the reason we all keep coming.
So a final thought occurred to me.
I have been late on a couple of occasions in the many appointements I have gone out on. Generally, I give a window of time when I will be there of maybe a half hour. Then I make every effort to get there at the beginning of it. Obviously I make an effort to call if I will be late.
As others have stated, I can't count the number of times I have waited on customers. On a few occasions I waited maybe as much as 45 minutes and no one came, So I left.
Which is what hhairi should have done. Oh, but the window that he gave had not expired. So why was he such a di*k?
While this thread was an interesting exercise, it was a minor relationship problem that could have been handled better by a third grader, who would probably have had the self esteem to keep the whole sordid situation to himself rather than blabbing his lack of social skills all over the internet.
Tom
"keep the whole sordid situation to himself rather than blabbing his lack of social skills all over the internet."
What more is there to say?.
Excellence is its own reward!
really, if he really wants to know what the deal was with the contractor then why doesent he just call the guy and ask him point blank. instead of coming on here rattleing the cage and hopeing for some sympathy to fall out
Edited 8/23/2003 1:43:11 PM ET by TECONAIL
I read back over the original post, and now I'm wondering if he was suggesting the sales guy might have been late because he stopped for a drink. Here's from the original post: "I open the door and say hello (get a barley audible hello back)." If he got a barley response, the guy musta had a beer or three, no? <G>
###
Heard two stories in the last 18 hrs that show how it's never just one side (HO or Contractor) that goofs up.
1. My daughter's Godmother tells me that they wanted some landscaping pavers placed, plus other stuff. It's a ritzy area of NJ. She called 10 recommended by the paver company and got only 4 call backs. One was too busy till next year. She picked from the other three. He says it'll take two weeks. It takes six, and then only be/c she finally makes up an artificial deadline. Work is done and done well. She paid 1/3 up front, 1/3 in the middle, and the final payment will include the extras added during the job, which have yet to be itemized. He finished on a Fri, and calls her Sun night to say he's coming over for the payment. She says she's in the middle of a dinner party (true) and doesn't even have an invoice yet. He flips out on her till she hangs up. Later they work it out, but he didn't even know that he had not given her an invoice and yet was yelling at her on a Sun night for not paying!
2. Heard a heart-breaking story from a couple who wanted a dome and had a somewhat famous architect do their plans a couple of years ago. The fee was 10% of expected construction costs and paid up front. Then they used an engineer recommended by the archy and they paid him 12k up front and he skipped town and let his license lapse and produced no work. To top it off, the archy has designed a 5000 sf house with intricate detailing and knew their constr budget was 150k. He says that they can build the complete house for that $30/sf! Before hearing that, I estimated the house at 500-750k. Another builder guessed over a mil, but he's always higher. Yet the archy is trying to convince them it can be done for 150. That's criminal! They did acknowledge that he seems to have a lot more designs than completed houses..........wonder why. This was a nice couple, and they've been totally scammed. It broke my heart. (But one thing I've learned from here is that I can't save them all....a year ago I might have offered to salvage the project for token fee, but I resisted the urge....I have all you guys to thank for that!)
Slightly off the original subject, but that is getting worn out anyway, is there some sort of regulatory board that you can sick on to the Architecht? It seems as though when they miss price by that much, it could be considered fraud, well in my opinion anyway. I know you can't build the dome for free, but can you at least tell them how to recoup some of the spent fees? Just curious, seems like there should be a way to hold them at least partialy responsible.
Dan
Yeah, the original was getting beyond the point of being useful to anyone. I did eenie, meenie to see which of three HO v Contr threads to put these stories in.
I mentioned various ways to report them, and the couple didn't seem interested. They're real laid back--really nice people, but kinda innocent--which is what helped them to be taken advantage of. From what I've seen of the plans, someone should be reported for something, be/c I can't see how it isn't fraudulent. Not my place to do so, be/c I'm an uninvolved third party. And HO doesn't seem aggressive enough to do so. But it's killing me that they spent 25-30k for an intended 150k house and have useless pieces of paper with a terribly flawed design for 5 times their budget.
You might be as sensitive as I am. I was not talking about you. I have been here long enough to know where you are coming from. If you don't think showing up on time is "good information" then maybe you got some better advice. Let's hear it. Or perhaps you don't like some of the other stuff I have been slinging.
Usually you are on top of everything on this forum. I am not trying to be just another good ol boy su-king up to the ringleaders here. I am a loner type and don't care to belong to any group that would have me as a member. Maybe my comment about the secretary spread hit home. Start out slow. Then ease up.
Actually, I thought maybe you miss-spelled something with the sec-spread. What is that anyway? I don't have a secretary so I must be missing something here.
but what has me wondering about you is that you have gone to great effort to spread your announcement around this board that you think many here are beneath you and that your publishing your full information somehow makes you more credible. That's what I don't get about you. Seems to me like a charachter in the old western movies. The young buch whose daddy owns the big double Bar Z ranch outside of town swaggering in to the bar with an attitude, "I'm so and so - y'all best make way for me now that I'm here, you mangy no-name curs"
You spend more time on that announcement than making good advice like showing up on time and politely.
If I've got you figured wrong, sorry. I guess this thread with the trolling platform has brought out the worst in some of us, including myself..
Excellence is its own reward!
A secretary that happened to be mighty fine looking mentioned her weight and her job tending to make her fat from sitting all the time. She said, "I hope I'm not developing the secretary spread". I was attacking you for being all over this site and wondering if you really have a life outside. All that sitting and posting could promote the dreaded secretary spread. I can't imagine the life of some of the posters on some of the forums I visit. They are so prolific that it seems that they have no life outside the internet. It seems that you are the most prolific poster on this site. Still I have seen some photos posted of your work and I take it back. You at least find time for your work. My apologies.
My dogs, my life and my work beckon. Gotta go.
Mike Callahan, Kings Beach.Start out slow. Then ease up.
In music school, we called that "Piano Butt". rg
I get compliments from the ladies about my cute little butt to offset the comments about my cute little beer belly but no spread sideways.
You might noitice that a high percentage of forum participants livce in isolated areas where more variety of human contact is available online. I live on an island where some of the social contact is slightly "inbred" so to speak. My horizons are a little bit broader.
I also tend to be a little bit obsessive with projects. I am likely to devote 11-12 hours a day to one until it is finished and then take a few weeks at home.
I also do my own design work on a CAD program here at the PC so when I am designing and estimating, I have BT and other sites for research online too. My coffe break is here then, like the title says, it is Breaktime..
Excellence is its own reward!
Mike, why the animosity? What is really eating at you? Care to share?
Take a breather. It will get better.
Just remember... every time you try to raise yourself up by stepping on others you simply lower yourself... not only in the eyes of those around you... but subconciously, you lower your own opinion of yourself. Trust me... I know from hard experience what I am talking about.
Have a beautiful day.
Richard Miller
Dont really see the problem here. You are both wrong. He is late, with out a call or apology, and you start off with a condescending remark. You both win. You dont get tied up with a contractor that wouldnt please you anyway, and he doesnt have to deal with you either.
harri..... that's it.... you get a " bite me"...
why woud anyone want to print your rant and give it to a customer for their reading enjoyment...
if you're having fun with this minor tale of woe.. then more power to you, but if it really , really , really did get under your skin, then you need to get a life and an attitude adjustment..
as to molten... hah, hah, hah... the olde potte calling the kettle blackeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You have to get one of these hats
http://www.bite-golf.com/golf/styles/h1002.htm
Ya, I had to meet a ho yesterday, and was 15 minutes late on purpose, (well, I was shooting for 20). It seems he called the referer and whined that I didn't get right out to see him 2 days after I called him. Uh huh, wait two more days and 15 minutes, dingdong, lol.
????
Um, I'm not a "brother" nor do I feel like I am part of a vast conspiracy nor do I sense that anyone else here is either. I haven't sensed an us or them (beyond "them" as someone who can wield a hammer without hitting their thumb and "us" as someone who always has a sore thumb...me.)
I've read a lot of good debate on the boards about a variety of topics, regardless of who knows who. I've heard about both sides of this issue from many different posters.
I'm not quite sure where the bitterness is coming from that is motivating the leap onto a "conspiracy theory." If I thought the issue I posted about should have been argued the other way, I would have done so, regardless of who is posting. This isn't about what is personal...it is about what happens and the choices we make in these situations and how other choices might have gotten us what we wanted. That's what makes this informative and enlightening to me...a Home Owner. Or HO, if you prefer.
I wasn't talking about you.
"I'm not quite sure where the bitterness is coming from "
Molten once had a minor disagreement with me about something. It appears that my opinion of an activity he proposed may have hurt his feelings..
Excellence is its own reward!
Unwad your panties man.
Life is too short to ruin it with bitterness like that. You are only hurting yourself.
I would guess that Piffin simply felt sad for you for a moment and moved on. You on the otherhand are literally shortening your life (according to scientific studies) by being so bitter.
Have a beautiful day.
psss...WHW...that was like a month ago man, where you been? I'm well beyond that bitterness now so relax, everything was clearly explained after I posted my angry ramblings. It's over...I have "closure" now....
Make sure the door is secure and toss the key.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Hey!
sorry dude... it was new to me and I didn't look at the dates. been busy.
Hey guy, glad to see you are back. Update your email address here, ok? Or is it the same?
I'll spare the small talk for later...
so, wet.... did you get settled in NC just in time for Isabelle ?.... or are you off the storm track ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL
They don't call him wethead for nuthin'.
Excellence is its own reward!
Still in CO actually... long story but it is getting better every day!
Plan to move second week of October now. Thanks for asking.
get out before the snow flies ...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
oh, yeah.. anudder ting.. part of your homework before resettling..
read " Cold Mountain"... Charles FrazierMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Title rings a bell....
Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, glad to see you're back, you still in Colorado or in N.C. already?The Count-Down begins, 91 days left
So it looks to me like all's well that ends well--
-- the tardy and rude contractor chose to ungracefully exit the situation, and so never has to deal with the homeowner again, and,
-- the impatient and rude homeowner discovered that the contractor's sense of time (being on time) was very different than his, and that the contractor was not tolerant of criticism.
The contractor/estimator certainly could have--should have--defused the situation with an explanation if not an apology. That is, if the estimator even got the word from the person who set up the appointment tnat time was critical (I recall that the homeowner set up and verified the appointment with someone other than the guy who came to do the estimate).
The fact that the estimator/GC chose just to walk away tells me a lot about him--he probably has a "take it or leave it" kind of approach to dealing with situations. I don't care whether he tried to call, or was having a bad attitude day or not. A professional would have offered a civil response to a fairly direct criticsm/greeting of "you're late", even if he couldn't have helped it. And a smart contractor would have disengaged in a more gracious way, even if he instantly knew that this wasn't the client for him. I don't see the GC's behavior as "not taking any crap", but rather as a sign of immaturity. Probably felt good, though.
The homeowner certainly could have been more tolerant of the GC's/estimator's lateness, realizing that there are often circumstances that are beyond a person's control and despite good intentions, sometimes people are late. And in my opinion, the homeowner should have been prepared for less than to-the-minute punctuality. The homeowner could have asked for the first appointment of the day (usually on time), brought some work to do while waiting, or maybe just enjoyed the slack time while waiting. Or scheduled the visit for a time when time was less critical. I mean, after all, this is a remodel, right, not a stopped-up drain, or a furnace that's quit in dead of winter? So I see the homeowner's confrontation about the lateness as a sign of an unrealistic desire to control the situation.
What's interesting to consider is how hhariri's sense of time and lack of flexibility and perspective is going to serve him during the remodel when it does happen.
There are a LOT of things not under your control during a remodel, and a LOT of things that don't go according to schedule or plan. Being able to keep the goal in sight, and exhibiting flexibility, will make the difference between enjoying the process and result, and being constantly frustrated and bitter about it. This doesn't mean being a doormat; it means expecting realistic preformance. Remodeling is usually torture for people with control issues.
Best of luck with the remodel. I'm sure that there is a GC out there who will meet your expectations. They will probably charge more to work with a less flexible client. But, hey, time is money, eh?
Cliff
There we go! A clear and lucid analysis of the situation. I must say I agree with your grasp of this situation entirely. Nice job!
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
hhariri,
upset because somebody didn't arrive at an appointment on time? Ha,ha,ha,ha that's a good one.
It would be a very rare week indeed when a customer or prospective customer DOESN"T leave me hanging like that. Usually several times a week---to one degree or another.Happened yesterday as a matter of fact---on an appointment made a week ago.
But since the world revolves around you---it couldn't possibly happen to anybody else.
and the fact remains that you made a bet---and LOST. no maybe,maybe,maybe about it.
I won't hold my breath waiting for you to pay off.
BTW---it's pretty low rent to make a bet with your discretionary spending money against another guys livlihood----and yet you still lost.
but here's the kicker------I think there is a good chance none of this really happened to you----I think you are just a troll looking for anargument
Ummmm, not to upset you, but it has happened to most if not all of us. The HO calls and sets the appt, then for whatever resaon cannot make the appt and does not get in touch with us. We leave the jobsite we are on and go to the location and wait.......and wait. Then that evening we get a call to reschedule!
I cannot count how many times I have heard the LAME excuse "I Forgot, Can you come back tomorrow?" Of course that is always answered with the reply " I am booked solid for the next 2 months, how about then?"
It seems that most of you hold the homeowners in low regard anyway
Doubtfully, as they provide the jobs that create the income. You're missing the point, it's not home owners that are held in low regard, it's rude people.
Its no wonder so many homeowners can recall remodeling tales of horrors and the contractor from HELL.
Very true, lot's of hacks out there, the good ones have the luxury of being just as picky as the homeowner they will work with. Apparently your contractor had this luxury and chose to exercise it.
I’ll print up this entire thread and will present it up front to any potential contractor I will hire
Somehow I doubt they would care or even read it, if anything, it might make them a little suspicious, as to why exactly a potential client would be handing them some discussion from some internet site. Saying "See, here's my attitude, is it good enough for you???"
Better to weed out the ones with a chip on their shoulder early.
Go into one of those bathrooms you want re-done and look in the mirror. You are getting all bent of shape cause one guy walked away from you. Should he have walked away? No, probably not, but from the get go, you also had a chip with the way you phrased your question, in any tone of voice, it was rude. You continue to carry the chip by further arguing this point.
Let it go, so he walked, I'm sure the yellow pages in your area is filled with ad's for contractors, pick one and move on.
... print out this entire thread, identify yourself and your handle and present it to the next ‘HO’ you’re after. You’ll have the door slammed on your face before....
Again, there would be no point, yeah the door would slam shut, They'd be sitting there thinking why the he!l is this guy showing me this, all I want is to talk to him about my project, not about some pointless banter on a discussion board.
And get off the 'HO' kick, if you really think that means something deeper then you're truly juvenile, Not once have I ever seen anyone make reference to 'HO' having any deeper meaning then home owner. Grow up.
Cause money talks and BS walks pal.
Got that right, you're learning, You shot some BS at this guy and he walked.
The fact is, no matter how late he was, you were rude to him first, if you don't see it that way, well then sorry, did you give him a chance to explain himself?
Beyond that, you were told by the company, that it would take 45 minutes right? you also said he arrived 30 min late correct? so if he shows up at 12:30, and needs 45 min to take a look around, that still puts him out the door at 1:15 leaving an extra 15 min before you need to leave to get back to work.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
It costs us around $2000 - $4000 to prepare an estimate. Most of our jobs are in the $500k - $1.5k range. So we do NOT give estimates to anyone who asks, but I suppose they're free to our regular clientele.
I'm on your side with being ticked at the contractor though. I would expect an apology for being late right off. Sometimes I feel like I spend my life feeling gratitude, etc. to the people who are upstream of me in the money chain, and then doing the same thing to those downstream with who I spend my hard-earned $$ and with whom I expect that same thing I feel towards my upstream.
I won't bitch about Lowe's. I won't bitch about the *&^% HO who has her piece of plywood cut into 2' strips by the guy who can't help me find a specialty fastener, and is loading said mat'l into her car with a trunk open while not batting an eye for me loading 15 sheets of 4'x8' into my truck by myself. My point is *no* appreciation by the company with whom I spent over $20k last year, when I see them giving it to every petunia-buying woman in front of me in the contractor's line.
And I won't bitch about subcontractors. Like the one who has the gall to bill me $250 for DWV couplings because my pipe wasn't bell-ended, on the same invoice he got out of providing 800 tons of sand ($6/ton) and didn't offer a credit. Or the one who was surprised when I asked for a credit on 1000' of 8" ductile iron water main because the drawing labeled 1"=60' was really plotted at 1"=50', but when I sent a truck to pick up the extra pipe and save him a restock fee found out he had the forethought not to order the pipe.
I might become an engineer and just not deal with people well.
remodeler
Give me a break! - If you boys decided to upgrade your computer system and called a consultant who treated you like this HO was treated by this contractor you would have caught the fool halfway down the sidewalk and taken him back to the woodshed for a lesson in manners.
Suppose you left an important job, with a tight deadline, drove across town to meet a computer geek (hhariri's proffesion) who had assured you he would show up at a specific time and would keep you less than two hours. Now suppose he finally showed up, without so much as a courtesy call to let you know he was running late, about the time you were expecting to be leaving to get back to your job, how would you have answered that door?
It was the contractor's company that established the time constraints - not the home owner. All hhariri did was expect a contractor to keep his word and let him know it was a real problem for both of them that he hadn't.
Come on guys - hop off them high horses and walk a mile in hhariri's shoes? This contractor may be busy now but he is going to be looking for work one of these days and that attitude won't be getting him too far. I bet a few meals of beans and cornbread will soften him up real good though.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Kevin, what good can ever come of having the first words out of one's mouth be to point out the other person's flaws? That sets the tone for what's to follow. I don't think either party was diplomatic. If they had been, this coulda had a "happily ever after" ending. But proving their point was more important than building a working relationship. When I walk a mile in either person's shoes, all I get is fungus, be/c each took specific action to escalate the unpleasantness and neither took action to diffuse it. Neither of the parties should pat themselves on the back for their words or attitude.
All I'm saying is that just about everyone seems to be taking the contractor's side here while castigating this H.O. for opening the door with an attitude. Your last response was one of the first truly balanced things I've read in this whole thread and frankly, I agree with you. Both of them handled the situation poorly.
But, In all fairness, I've got one of them attitudes myself and I would have probably used a little of it in this instance. I bet that hour and a half simmer would have put me somewhere just below boil right about the time that door bell finally rang. If I had managed a more diplomatic welcome it almost certainly would have been through clenched teeth.
Sure, it's easy for all of us to believe we would have been a lot more diplomatic in this case, sitting here in front of our keyboard, miles away from the actual experience. Turn the tables though and I bet several of us would have treated the allegorical computer geek with even less diplomacy than this contractor got.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I read it the same way you did. Picturing myself wasting my time waiting 45 minutes (probably without any AC, and knowing that I would be working late that evening to make up for it, missing time with my family because some guy couldn't be bothered to call and postpone, as the time ticks by my thoughts getting angrier and angrier) for a guy who finally shows, I would have been pretty angry, a good attitude hard to dredge up. Could he have handled it better, certainly. Would I have? Probably not.
As for the comments others made about would you castigate a doctor who made you wait? Yes, I have, when no explanation or apology was offered. It doesn't matter what your profession, that is no excuse for poor behavior. When you are going to be significantly late, a call with an explanation is in order. If that call is impossible, an apology should be proferred first thing.
Well, I appreciate you trying to take and give a bright out look on this thing. Positive attitude is good, especially when based in reality.
But as for your assumption that I would have been rude after waiting is just and unfounded assumption. "how would you have answered that door?"
I have gotten slightly rude with subs or others who have missed dates three or four time running, but when one is simply late one time, my greeting is more like, "Howdy, it's really important to get this taken care of as soon as possible. How can I help make it go smooth now that you're here". I'm not making that up. It's based in reality of having done it four or five times this year..
Excellence is its own reward!
May I suggest that if the contractor came here complaining about the HO being upset because he was 45 minutes late for no reason at all that we would with great joy jump HIS case?
I think in a way you may be missing the point in most of the responses... I saw no one excuse the contractor... some pointed out he could have had a legitimate excuse... but most of the posts here seem to assume he also made a mistake.
I would have walked from this job in a heartbeat. And understood why the HO was upset. But if I screwed up and he communicates his self centered egotistical character that clearly and that early in the game, then I am out of there and quick. Of course I would be kicking myself for being late. And would probably call back to apologize. (But not to get the job! No way will I work for this kind of guy again! Ever. been there... done that!)
Not looking for a fight... just sharing my observations.
Was he coming to give a "free" estimate?
Appointments are one of the few things I am not late for. I will not purposely waste someone's time because I hate when it is done to me.
I can't tell you how many potential customers did not give me the courtesy of being on time.
Have a little empathy and understanding.
Tom
You got lucky!
You obviously picked the wrong crowd to whine to!
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
All that free advice and education and not a single thanks.
Some people.
LOL with a ROAR!
Let me know if you have trouble finding someone.
I do work from Richmond,VA to Baltimore,MD.
And I am NEVER late, or early.
" I am NEVER late, or early. "
and you never stretch the truth
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Hehehehehe................How Did You Know!!!!!
.........not much gets by you, does it?!?
Carter
wow...
a whole 45 min, you say?
That must explain that whole blackout thing .....
And after you were ready to give him a whole hour and a half!
You must be very important.
ever think he mighta been working up to an apology/explanation right before ya felt the need to give the play by play on the clock situation? Sometimes people like to talk inside the house......not on the front stoop as they're being given the ol'skunk eye.....
BTW .....why ask the question as in the case of your contractor ....Yes, appearantly business is that good. He pretty much told ya so.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
..........not on the front stoop as they're being given the ol'skunk eye.
Can I use that... 'ol` skunk eye' ? That made my day. Where`s the Kleenex...I gotta` pee. Oh, boy! :)
Ever think the CONTRACTOR did try to call? and couldn't get through?
I called a supplier yesterday from my home "office"----the person I wanted was out so I left my cel number, Knowing I would be on the move shortly. My cel was ON and in my pocket.
3 minutes later I recieve a call on my "office" line from the supplier----she said she tried the cel number and recieved a "this number is turned off or is out of the service area" I told her it was definitely on and that I hadn't moved 15 feet since I called her.
so maybe the dude tried REPEATEDLY to reach you and couldn't get through. Heck maybe he was late cause he stopped along the way to pull Baby Jessica outta a well----but you will never know cause ya jumped his shi4 on the doorstep.
the best thing about this job is being able to say NO to people ya instantly dis-like.
4 bathrooms huh? Hmmm. Late?
You ever say to your doctor that gives you a 1 o'clock apt and doesnt see you till 2 that he's late. Course you don't. Know why you don't? Cause you have way more respect for him then you do for us dirty sweaty builders anddddd you're being charged a zillion dollars by the doc for a five minute consultation.....
us? FREE ESTIMATES and then you don't use us and go onto the next FREE ESTIMATE till someone with your arrogance finds the cheapest price from a moonlighting sanitation worker.
Sorry bro, even after all the responses to your post you haven't come back to reply to one of us.....you're late dude!
Sure wish that contractor was here at BT so I could give him a cyber beer.
Be more understanding cause we bust our arses all day
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Aw, com'on, Bud, that wasn't neccessary.
SamT
your probably right samt sorry but just couldnt resist
Whoa... there guys ... Just noticed in the profle this poster is from Potomac MD.
For those of you unfamiliar with this area it's the only place in the world were septic tanks don't stink and lawyers are honest.
Remember back years ago a painters helper slaughtered a doctors family in Potomac and stacked them in the basement like cord wood.
Anyone wondering why? Maybe he was a little late that day.
__________________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
One good thing about this thread, it's been awhile since I've seen so many offshoots from a single post. There are at least three other related threads going on this general topic.
and
the originator is getting an education. All the experts tell us that education improves our odds of success. Maybe he/she will become successfull someday and contrqactors will be flocking in droves to do this work..
Excellence is its own reward!
Bro??
Where you is??Ditch
he's late
and you wanna talk rude. MAkes this thread and doesn't reply.
Probably has his head in one of his toilets...lol
be well Ditch
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You scared him Andy.
tee hee
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I've followed this thread with interest, as well as the offshoots. I will probably regret putting in my 2 cents, but here goes.
1. The original poster made it clear that when setting up the appointment that he had let the contractor know his time constraints, and that he would have to leave for work. Many people have castigated the homeowner for not allowing enough time for the appointment in the first place, but as the professional, the contractor is the one who should know how much time it would take, and if it wasn't adequate to let the homeowner know. The HO may never have hired a contractor in the past and therefore may have NO CLUE how much time to allow. I think that too often this group forgets that they have knowledge because of their activities that someone outside of this profession would have no way of knowing.
2. Several people have referred to waiting in their doctor's office. If I have a patient that waits more than 5 minutes to see me, the first words out of my mouth as I enter the exam room is an apology. Needless to say, I say a lot of apologies throughout the day, but I truly mean them. The nature of medicine, particularly in this day and age is that we have to see as many patients as possible, and we never know exactly how much time each visit will take. We rely on some taking less time to balance out the ones that take more. This is something I can't change, but I at least acknowledge verbally that the patient's time is valuable.
3. One reason I had to reply is that I just spent 4 hours on Thursday waiting for a Sear's repairman to fix my refrig. Their policy is that they can only give you a four hour window. After waiting the four hours, I called and was told that he would be late, and could I stay. Since I had patients scheduled I couldn't wait. They rescheduled the appt, but even though I had been made to wait for 4 hours, they could still only give me a 4 hour window for another day! (It's a warranty repair, so I can't. call another company). The technician who was rescheduling felt I was unreasonable for even suggesting that they should be able to narrow the time window under these conditions.
You are somewhat the exception. When my doctor is late, the nurse will say something on her way out the door "the doctor is running a little late today" and that's the end of it, regardless if the delay is 5 min or an hour.
The appliance repair business, especially the majors, is a real pain. And you're right about the 4 hour window. What a crock! If they miss the appt, why can't you be scheduled for the first visit the next morning? They usually start on time, so that would be a good time to make up the misses.
I got into a tiff with the local McCoys lumber yard last week over the same thing. I stopped by the store to order materials, and asked them when would be a ghood time for them to deliver. The jobsite is 30 miles away and I'm not there every day. They agreed on 11 am Thursday, so I showed at 10:45 to be sure I didn't inconvenience them. at 12:30 I called the store to check on delivery, and afetr severasl delays finally got one of the dispatchers. She said the time written on the paper (11-1) was the time the truck woudl leave the yard, not the time it wouuld arrive, and someone should have told me that! Well the someone who took the order was the Asst Mgr and he was out that day. She said it would be another 1-1/2 hrs before they arrived. And when they finally arrived, I asked where the 3x18x24 ft glulam was...oh, was that part of the order? I can't believe there were only 5 line items on the order, and they missed the largest item.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I thought twice before this post to you , but I will do it anyway.
I can handle the doctors office appointments because "I " can leave after talking to the girl through the window that chats with her friends and family in every office Ive been in all my life. Im cool to that . Shes not much of an obsticle .
In the hospital is another thing if the doctor never shows up. The way it just happeded it could run on for days and days. No other doctor will see you in the care of another. Period. A doctor may look in on you from the same clinic , but he will not release you for anything . This has happened twice .
I have this question ; Can you fire your doctor while in the hospital in hopes of getting actual doctors care from another doctor "in" the hospital?
Tim Mooney
Hey 'Bro
...come back....really......
Must have been a bad week for everybody.....your contractor too. I think most of the guys were yankin' your chain a little.
Anyway ....a lot of skilled trade guys will set up the first appointment as a looksy, see what you've got.....test the waters .......... check out the sitcheeashun, meeting.
If somebodies had a rough week...... and a rougher morning....... and is late... and he's hungry......but he eats eats steak at home cause he's so frickin busy.....
.....he's already said to himself on the drive over: "If this cat even mentions being late I'm fricken leavin".
He might be the right guy...call him back and ask if you guys can hook up again.
Ditch
I wish we could call several doctors to our homes and let them give us free estimates on the surgery we need. My orthopedist took the lowest bid for his roof, but seemed offended when I decided to get a second opinion on getting a vertebrae removed. I've still got it and not experiencing problems several years later. He's got a crappy roof and is still experiencing problems.
On the other hand my orthodonist doesn't call anyone else and is willing to barter. He goes in my "good customer" list.
I wish we could call several doctors to our homes and let them give us free estimates on the surgery we need.
You can't get them to come to your home, but you can certainly call around and get a doctor's price for a given surgery. If you do so, and someone won't tell you the price you should go elsewhere.
Kid doc
It all makes sense now, your a pediatrician.
Of all the docs that I have had encounters with pediatricians rank right up there at the top, I mean that in a good way.
My BIL was emergency room doc for 30 years and he said that you guys are lower on the pay scale than a lot of the others so there must be something else that draws you to the work you do. My kids are fortunate that they had the same pediatrician that their mother had.
Kinda off subject but thought worth mentioning
Doug
I still have to believe that when talking about doctors , it still gets right back to people and how they handle their business. I would like to know that my appointment will be an hour and a half late. That means to me that doc didnt make his appointment and Im free to leave . With a rescheduled appointment of course. Better yet his recpt should call ahead of time. I understand if he has had three walkins that had to see him with a high fever for example. Stuff happens and every one should understand that. Communication would be the answer and Im good to go as a happy customer.
Tim Mooney
Sorry you've had a bad experience with doctors. My group has an ironclad policy that anytime a patient is in the hospital he is seen by whoever in our group is covering the hospital service every day without fail. I let the parents (I'm Pediatrics) know about when I will be there, and I have waited for a parent to get there in order to talk to them. To me that is just good medicine, and patients should expect nothing less. From a strictly monetary standpoint, a doctor cannot charge for taking care of a patient in the hospital on a day in which he doesn't see the patient. The only exception would be a surgeon who is paid a flat fee for the surgery and all follow up care.
To answer your question, you can always fire a doctor. The only catch is that if you are a patient in a hospital, you have to have another doctor willing to assume care. All patients have to have an attending physician of record to be an inpatient. The alternative is to sign yourself out of the hospital AMA ( against medical advice), but often when you do that the insurance company will refuse to pay for the entire hospitalization. I think a better solution is to let your doctor know about your displeasure, and the reasons why. He may even help you find another doctor more to your liking. Regardless, remember that he works for you, that you are a consumer, and therefore are entitled to reasonable care.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. What you said is about what I had found out . Bottom line is another doctor doesnt want in on it. We are the same. Its a red flag to follow a firing and walk on a partcially completed job. Its more often than not to look at the veiw point of our peer contractor that has been fired. I waited till they came in both instances and wont return to them again. I think thats the drill people use with contractors more than not. Human nature.
Thanks again,
Tim Mooney
Kid Doc,
Just curious, you say that you are a pediatrician. No doubt you make good money, certainly more than me. Why would you, in your profession, even agree to wait up to 4 hrs. for a tech to fix an appliance under warrantee? That must have cost you more in your time than the fridge. (BTW, my brother is an MD too, so I know)
When my new freezer went out a few weeks ago, and the mrf. (GE) wanted to schedule an appointment, they said that they would call me at work ~25 min. before the tech showed. Fair enough, I only work 15 minutes away. In this day of instaneous e-mail and cell phones (not to mention land lines) there is no reason to keep ANYONE waiting much more than 30 minutes, be it doctor, carpenter or whoever.
Jon
My cable co is going the other way...they now say two business days before they'll make an appt, and then full day appt only....and the day can go till 8:30 pm. Turns out the bastards knew lightening took out a big section of cable a mile from my house and didn't need me to be home for anything. Of course, the lightening was on a Sat, so not fixed till Wed. Monopolies!
Why would you, in your profession, even agree to wait up to 4 hrs. for a tech to fix an appliance under warrantee?
Because I don't see an alternative. As I said, it was a Sears appliance and that is their policy. Yes, I make more money per hour while I am seeing patients than that, but this was my morning off from work, so I am not earning any money during that time. As a pediatrician I certainly make a decent living, but not enough that I can afford to just replace an appliance with a minor defect. And just like everyone else, someone has to be there for a technician to be able to have access for repairs to be made.
As far as the issue of them calling before coming, my office is 30 minutes from my home. When I have patients scheduled, there is no way I could justify leaving for over an hour to meet a technician, and make the patients wait. ( See previous posts about patients having to wait for the doctor).
Edited 8/17/2003 11:45:13 PM ET by kid.doc
Kid Doc
I guess I was the guy that brought up the doctor comparison. Probably because I have waited over an hour past the appt'd time way too many times with way too many doctors and never once did I get an, "I'm sorry for the wait". Never once! you're an exception, and I have to agree that the first thing I thought when you said that you're a pedi that you probably are more compassionate.
HAving to use an appt'd HMO (that I pay almost ten grand a year for by the way) the doctors there treat us like we're meat on a rack, probably because they don't earn what private practice docs get,yet ten granda year for my wife , kid and me is the biggest nut I pay outside of my mortgage and even that is cheaper. Kinda disgusting if you ask me.
I had polups (sp) removed from my nasal passage a month or so ago. Took all of less than a half hour. I got the bill (which my was covered by my HMO) and it was over $20,000. I suppose thats why I used doctors as an example.
You are very right about appliance repair companies, They're second worst when it comes to being late.......not to mention,they DO charge for estimates. One of the few in the repair trades that get away with that.
I had a dishwasher that needed fixing. I was on a job so my wife had to wait home for over 4 hours for him. The guy comes and pulls the dishwasher out and said that the electric lines underneath were eaten by mice and it couldnt be fixed to make it worth our while. My wife had to pay $75 for that.
I get home and have a thought. I go down the basement and check the circut breakers and sure enough a dedicated line was off. Yep, to the dishwasher.
I've had more than one crook in the appliance field try and screw me. They're by far the worst of em' all. Funny , now that I think about it......no appliance repair guys are here at Breaktime.
By the way...glad to have you aboard....keep posting.
Be well
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Never mind his tag but his real name is George.
you guys friends? Does he live up there in the woods too? Country doc?
a
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Not Doc....
This one....
I've had more than one crook in the appliance field try and screw me. They're by far the worst of em' all. Funny , now that I think about it......no appliance repair guys are here at Breaktime.
"HAving to use an appt'd HMO....the doctors there treat us like we're meat on a rack,"
Andy,
Ain't that the truth. I'm in a PPO (similar to an HMO). Can't tell you how often I turn to my brother 'cause it takes forever ot get an appointment out here. If you know a well connected MD, you can get excellent treatment in an instant.
When I needed to see a dermatologist, out here the wait (in my PPO network) was 2 months! I called my bro. A day later I got a personal call from one in his building asking when it would be convenient for me to come in and see him. Granted, I had to fly to NY, but at least I got speedy treatment.
MRI's.....Free (if you forgot, He's a radiologist), and positively no wait 24/7.
Jon
Having worked in the health care industry for awhile, I totally buy into what kid doc is saying. Even though kid docs might (and I'm stressing might) make more per hour than, say, a GC (?), the medical school loans, insurance caps, malpractice insurance premiums, cost of running a small practice, cost of recertification and on-going education on new methods in medicine, being on-call in the middle of the night and weekends, etc. etc. kind of eats into your profit margin more than you can ever imagine.
I think that rich doctor stereotype is biting the dust for many general practitioners and family doctors. Specialists still seem to get paid well, but the insurance companies are clamping down there too. The stereotype only existed for a few decades there, but I know my grandmother paid her family doctor with money AND some bartering in food and housecleaning when she could way back when.
Meanwhile, ministry? We've always been scraping along. It kind of goes with the territory unless you are a televangelist. :)
I respect Doctors and know that they don't all make the big bucks. It's similar to this profession of contracting. Some buiolders make it big and others barely make it.
You adressed some other similarities too;
loans - we carry big lines of credit at times to deal with cash flow
insurance - many builders are losing their liability insurance or seeing premiums go up from 6-600%
overhead cost - if you don't have any, you are not really in business.
on-going education - I guess there are still contractors out there doing things the way they did in the sixties, who have never been to a convetion or seminar, who don't keep subscriptions to FHB or JLC, and who don't have a single reference book or computer program to learn and use in business, but they are a dying breed.
yes, builders are professionals too..
Excellence is its own reward!
No doubt that builders are professionals! You forgot to add that many of the ones I know have more understanding of math, geometry and physics then some of the desk engineers I've met ;)
There's a diff between hands on practical engineering and numbers engineering.
Like with the doctors, there is a division between surgeons who are mechanics and plumbers, and the MDs who use as much art and intuition as they do chemical treatments..
Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry Piff, I like to tease desk engineers because I went to undergrad to be one (never practiced) and because my dad is one...as well as many friends. All smart folks. My dad was the one who pointed out to me early that many of our craftspeople friends were the ones to go to for a great explanation of the things we were learning in our texts. :)
What business are you in? What are the expectations of you? How do your customers react to you if you deviate from the plan? Would you like to be in this contractor's shoes and encounter you, i.e., do you think your comment about him being late was a reasonable think to say? How many minutes late does one need to be to get an opening comment about it--45? 30? 15? 5? And was the time alloted for the look-see and estimate set by him or by you?
I worked one place where the boss would talk down on you if you were 10 min late, but said nothing if you worked 4 hours extra. He wasn't at all fun.
hhariri,
Yes, when business is good folks forget their manners.
I haven't read all of the responses to your question, and won't.
You are absolutely correct, that guy was an a**hole or having a bad day, or both.
You may have been too quick to criticize his lateness and naive not block out an afternoon to discuss your project, but that does not excuse him from exercising basic, fundamental curtesy and starting with an apology for being late. Certainly there are tons of things that screw up making an appointment on time, and most homeowners cannot be expected to understand the preparation that needs to be done nor the vast array of variables that can change a job midstream. If he was truely worth your time, he would have at least attempted to salvage the relationship before stomping off, and explained that if you were out of time, it may be best to reschedule and suggested how much time you should be willing to spend with him. You may become a perfect client if he can educate you about the process and form a workable partnership with you. Good times won't last forever and you may need work done in the future when work is scarce.
There are way too many contractors out there who don't return calls, don't see any need to keep the clients informed about schedule changes and act as though their time is the only time that can't be wasted. It's rude, and that's being nice.
Don't loose faith, there really are professionals out there who will treat you with respect. They may be hard to find and schedule for those very reasons, but keep looking and keep asking around. Treat them with respect as well and don't expect free work. There are as many primadonna contractors as primadonna clients and both are a nightmare to work with. Good contractors are motivated to keep a good client, make sure that is what you are.
Edited 8/22/2003 5:29:45 PM ET by WFLATHER
Hi guys. I was invited by a frequent contributor to this forum to provide a free opinion/contribution of my own.
Sorry I'm a day late. There was a huge pile-up of surfers on the SouthWest Internet Highway here in Houston, and then the heavens opened and it rained virus's and spams all afternoon, and every visitor in front of me at the websites I was trying to negotiate must have been in the 'slowest browser in the world'competition.
Anyway, here I am now, and let's get down to it,........ and why are you staring at me like that with veins bulging in your neck, and shouting at me with spittle frothing from your mouth as if you're watering the front step?
Bye. I've had all the problems I want to handle today, thanks. I think I need a drink or seven, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha.. Slainte.
sgian.. r u stil here ?
thot the bush / ashcroft bunch ran yur type out days ago Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Still here, Mike. Packing up my stuff and closing things down. A bit of a change in schedule as I'll be leaving a couple of weeks or so later than originally planned. Then it's onto the big bird and home to dear old Blighty to start the new teaching job.
Looking forward to it, and I won't mind it being 30° or 40°F cooler every day. Let me just wipe the drops of sweat off my keyboard here before I post this, ha, ha. I'm sure you realised my previous post was tongue in cheek. Slainte.Website
I have been contracting for 25+ years. Being 45 minutes late without a call, (there are pay phones for people that don't remember), was uncalled for. No pun intended. Be lucky that he walked away. He wasn't man enough to take some brow beating when deserved. Obviously, he offered no explanation for being late and you like most people would have expected one from the get-go. The bad thing about most of the people that service the home construction business is that they are in general, poorly educated, and do not know how to conduct business with the white collar clients that they work for. That concept is what makes the few who are educated make excellent white collar dollars in the trades. They know how to treat people that work in a timely world, and there clients will pay a premium to work with those individuals. It is called Business 101! GW
Long time, Greg. Good to see you. How's the house?
The house is pretty much finished a year and a half later and a lot of arm twisting with Centex. They repainted the whole interior with primer and two coats of satin enamel. Zoned H & A in the upstairs living, bedroom and bath. Re-poured the driveway. Removed part of a hip roof to fix a sag from poor engineering. Added a dormer vent to the 5th garage roof that had no vent. Poured a 200 foot v-ditch to a dissipator for drainage. All of this at their expense. It seemed to help sending faxes to the chairman of the board of Centex, a Mr. Hersh. A friend had his fax number. I got immediate response from the local branch after I did that. The house is worth about 950K as far as resale goes, and I am in at 770K fully landscaped and a pool. 1/2 acre of Canary Island Palms growing(70 trees) and a 1/4 acre of producing Hass Avocados. The Canaries are the college fund for my 7 year old. Paid 8K to put them in, but they will harvest in ten years at 70K in todays dollars. Are you finished with the dome and surroundings? What are you doing with your time? Are you ready to startup another business? GW
Edited 9/18/2003 10:22:19 PM ET by Greg Warren
Edited 9/18/2003 10:23:03 PM ET by Greg Warren
Good to hear you're getting along! Nice and creative with the trees and such. Wish poke weed was a cash crop. I'm busy more than full time designing the domes for other people. Get to stay at home, play on the computer, and mess with houses all day. Can't imagine much better. And sometimes I even collect on the invoices! Making headway toward "conventionality" thanks to Taunton, and some other forms of media...I've become a total media pig! :) Nah, just having lots of fun and so far keeping clients happy.
Being 45 minutes late without a call, (there are pay phones for people that don't remember), was uncalled for.
Absolutely right. I make a point of being on time for client visits, with their number programmed into my cell phone just in case. Not only does it make good business sense, it's also simple politeness. It shows that you care about your clients' time as well as your own, and helps to start the relationship off right.
There are all sorts of businesses and trades that people enter because they are good at the actual job they are doing, be it building, cooking, driving, gardening whatever. Surprisingly often these people are NOT good at managing the customer side of their business, and make no effort to improve. Quite often these people have plenty of customers and feel justified in treating their potential customers in a way that would get them fired if they worked for a larger retail based company.
John
Edited 9/19/2003 3:38:42 AM ET by john
I'll disagree with the statement that there are pay phones. Has anybody tried to find one lately? Since cell phones have become so popular and phone booths are now the habitat of anyone BUT Superman, the phone company loses money on them. The only ones I've seen in ages have been in the lobby of hotels and in airports.
Excellence is its own reward!
Must be alot different there. Every gas station and 7-11 in town has a few of them here. I have grown very accustomed to them lately as my POS cell phone provider(Suncom,Nokia) keeps sending me refurbished phones to replace the top of the line phone I bought. I have 5 lines with them and have been with them for 5+ years and this is how they treat me.........
We still have em in Dallas, and since the dang paper wieght I think of as a cell phone acts up most of the time I know where they are. LOL....dang phone will only show messages, won't ring or let me call back. Got the third one since June on order, but with a new carrier this time!
Theresa-Honeydoos