This is an existential type question that I have been wrestling with. I am preparing an oral report on Greene and Greene, and these questions are at the root of what makes their work so important. Or is their work so important?
I know that craftsmanship is extremely important to me personally. Yet, it seems less so to the world around me. Since there seems to be so little demand for the type of craftsmanship that I seek in my own work, I wonder why it seems so important to me. What’s going on here?
For some reason, craftsmanship seems related to conscience. In other words, I feel that perpetrators of faulty craftsmanship should be ashamed of their work. But if they’re delivering what others want or are willing to accept, why does it seem wrong to me? When I’m not happy with the craftsmanship of my own work, why do I feel ashamed? – even ‘tho my clients might be perfectly happy with the product I deliver!
If I do a job where I produce a level of craftsmanship that pleases me, why do I feel satisfied, even ‘tho I may not have made any money on the job? Why is it difficult for me to cut corners, when others do it so glibly?
Since I know that craftsmanship is important to this group here, I’m askin’ ya – WHAT exactly is craftsmanship, in your opinion, and if its important to you, WHY? Why does it matter? Do others struggle with this craftsmanship/conscience issue?
————-
edited to add: this is not to be confused with perfectionism. I advocate a high level of craftsmanship, but do not feel comfortable with the concept of perfectionism, which seems like a neurosis to me. My father was a craftsman and a perfectionist, and he was so incredibly unpleasant to be around when he was working, I made a pact with myself never to take the pursuit of perfection to such an extreme that it became more important than the people around me.
————-
“I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.”
Raymond Chandler’s Philip Marlowe
Edited 5/7/2007 12:57 am by Huck
Replies
WHAT exactly is craftsmanship, in your opinion, and if its important to you, WHY? Why does it matter? Do others struggle with this craftsmanship/conscience issue?
Are you familiar with Gustav Stickley? He designed and built furniture, published a magazine, The Craftsman, and ran more than 200 floor plans for "Craftsman" houses in that magazine (I think the magazine ran from about 1904 to 1915). He is credited with coining the term "Craftsman".
Stickley's motto "Als ik kan" is translated "to the best of my ability". If you haven't read about him already, you'd probably find some of his essays of interest. Some (many) of them address the very question of pride in workmanship, etc.
To me, the entire subject of "craftsmanship" boils down to a person's values. As tradesmen, we all know it when we fail to perform up to our ability, even if the client is unaware of it. From my own perspective, I will not sell subpar work to a client. If (when) I make a mistake, I fix it. Trying to get away with or otherwise hide mistakes is, in my opinion, tantamount to fraud.
Unfortunately, there have always been plenty of people in the world who do not have a problem with fraud or theft. Those are the people who do not struggle with the "craftmanship/conscience issue". Honest people do.
Yes, I am familiar with Gustav Stickley. In fact, the writings and work of Stickley were a catalyst in the formation of Greene and Greene's 'ultimate bungalow' style. I have not read any of Stickley's essays, however, and will look into it. Thanks!"I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe
Huck,
I figured you'd heard of him, but I included some extra info about him for those who haven't.
Dover publishes a number of inexpensive reprints from Gustav Stickley. "Craftman Homes" contains a lot of text and a number of essays from him on his philosophy. I really like the Dover books because they are reprints -- you get the words right out of the horse's mouth, as opposed to getting an interpretation from a modern author.
here is some fodder for meditation, culled from the internet
Craftsmanship is a relationship between the maker and the process of creation. It is not simply a set of skills one acquires, like the ability to read or drive a car. More than anything, craftsmanship is a matter of attitude: why we choose to devote time to such a demanding endeavor, why we choose to make a certain object of a certain appearance, and how we go about it.
In this context, craftsmanship is first and foremost an expression of the human spirit. I choose to work as a craftsman because the process answers a need of my spirit; the object I make is the physical expression of the interaction between spirit and matter. How is this different than the work of the artist?
The artist is not concerned with the utility of the created object; the craftsman is. I care that a chair be comfortable, sturdy, and durable, that it look inviting to sit in, that its presence in a room be neither overbearing nor withdrawn. This care is implicit in every step of making the chair—in drawing up the plans, choosing the wood, maintaining my tools, milling the rough lumber to size, cutting the joinery, planing, scraping, sanding, and applying the finish.
Craftsmanship is both attitude and skills.
- introduction to Woodworking Basics by Peter Korn
----------------------------
We in Western society have largely become “observers” rather than “doers”... I believe that the decline in appreciation of Craftsmanship is at the root of this trend, and that this trend must be reversed for us to survive. I also believe that we all innately share a love and appreciation of fine craftsmanship, but most do not have a reference point or access to examples of it… the Internet…has drawn so many away from “making things’ to vicariously experiencing what others have chosen for us in lieu of us identifying and pursuing a unique personal journey.
- The Internet Craftsmanship Museum Presents: An Essay on Craftsmanship, by William L. (Bill) Gould
"I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe
"We in Western society have largely become “observers” rather than “doers”... I believe that the decline in appreciation of Craftsmanship is at the root of this trend"I don't question the statement's validity but I pose the question why do you think this is so?What's the bigger issue?
Yeah, I think there was a documentary about that a few months back.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Carpentry and woodworking, like many other things, can be crafts or they can be something less- trades, I guess, or just occupations.
You can feel satisfied at a job well done, whether or not it was profitable, because you are a craftsman- it's awkward to compare a craftsman carpenter to someone who is just doing it to pay the bills, but we often find ourselves alongside one another.
Seems to me that craftsmanship is a mindset that places high value on quality. The craftsman is usually in the best position to judge the quality of their own work. I don't think you can continue to be a craftsman if the quality of your work is not a matter of conscience.
Maybe that's just because it's difficult to sort out the human brain into categories, like conscience, pride, artistic sensibility, etc.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I think it's because of pride. A man with no pride has no conscience, and vice versa.
Notice, you didn't say that you felt guilty, you said you felt ashamed.
Guilt is your conscience nagging you for not doing what you shoulda.
Shame is what you feel when you have violated one of societies mores, and you have a strong moral about giving the best you can.
Guilt, or conscience can also be a strong motivator towrds craftmanship when the 'guilty' party doesn't give what he thinks the client deserves.
Of the two, I think pride is the more effective motivator, because shame is you beating up on yourself, but guilt is just your nagging conscience.
SamT
Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.
Craftsmanship is... Learned talent plus natural ability with creativity and a whole lot of 'I do give a damn.'
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Building as thou art paranoid never harmed anyone.
This is the question that ZAMM asked and never answered.
i think it would be more of issues of intregity and pride...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think this falls under "To thine own self be true." Pride in your work and doing the best you can are intrinsic values that you have. You would be cheating yourself not to do quality work. To hell with what others will put up with.
Ever read the short story "Quality" by Goldsworthy? It was even made into a movie with, if I remember correctly, Akira Kirasawa (or maybe he was the director and it was Toshiro Mifune--I get the director and the actor confused in my mind) starred and it was put into more modern times. Anyway, it addresses the issue of "Quality".
There's a scene in another movie, "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denesovich" I remember, where the prisoners in a Russian gulag are leaving after a days labor in Siberia on a make-work project where they are building some sort of civic center in a village where no one will ever live. Ivan (he was a brick layer) turns to look back at the job. Walls are not straight or plumb or level, joints are uneven and bricks are falling out, except where he worked and the bricks have been laid up perfectly.
Yes, it matters, even if it matters only to you. You are the master of your soul. It goes deep into the very fabric of who you are. You cannot shortchange yourself.
James Krenov has probably been the single biggest influence in my building life re: craftsmanship and The zen of Building...if you want to read a book that will truly inspire you try this link I'm posting...it may change your life to a degree. It should apply to all the apects of your life not just building...at least thats my opinion.
That being said...to ME craftsmanship is being able to use your craft as a roadmap to your life...it should be your own personaly theropist...the mistakes that need attention from the foundation up.
If you aren't willing to make those changes you see in your physical work to the spiritual work and visa versa in your own life you are not a craftsman and you are doing yourself and everyone around you an injustice from your work to your life...from your foundation up. Thats what crafstmanship is to me.I feel blessed to have coincidently stumbled on this book many many years ago...
Namaste
andy...
http://www.amazon.com/Cabinetmakers-Notebook-Woodworkers-Library-Fresno/dp/0941936597
Book Description
Cabinetmaking at the highest level is an art, a discipline, a philosophy—even a way of life—in addition to being a useful craft. In this book one of the greatest living cabinetmakers reflects on the deeper meanings of his craft and explains for less accomplished workers how the right attitudes toward materials, tools, and time can increase the joys of this complex activity. Craftspeople in every medium will be inspired by this account of getting started and developing habits that lessen the difficulties of a complex craft.
Product Description
Cabinetmaking at the highest level is an art, a discipline, a philosophy—even a way of life—in addition to being a useful craft. In this book one of the greatest living cabinetmakers reflects on the deeper meanings of his craft and explains for less accomplished workers how the right attitudes toward materials, tools, and time can increase the joys of this complex activity. Craftspeople in every medium will be inspired by this account of getting started and developing habits that lessen the difficulties of a complex craft.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit."
Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OK - I ordered the book! Also Nakashima's classic, which I had been thinking about getting for a few years.
I'm thinking of it as an inoculation against Haunism.
You WILL enjoy Krenov!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nakishima's book is big and heady but it's not a classic for nothing. You will enjoy.
Andy,Jim's writing changed my life as well and as a younger man put me on the path I'm following today.I was lucky enough to study at College of the Redwoods for a year (200-2001). You'll be at the heart of Krenovian territory if you end up in Sebastopol.Cool to hear his writing has been an influence on people I admire.Have you built any planes?-KitTechnique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
Jim's writing changed my life as well and as a younger man put me on the path I'm following today.<<<I wrote him a thank you letter not long ago and said in it that I wasn't looking for a reply...just wanted to say thanks...in it I spoke of Ram Dass and told Krenov that the two of them had the exact same message to me..just used different vehicles to deliver it,,,not sure he appreciated that comparrison but it was the truth. The first book I read that had a big influence on me about 30 something years ago was Ram Dass' "Grist For the Mill" and of all the similar books like it...when I opened Krenov's book when I first started in carpentry it did the same exact thing for me...two great comparrison books in my life.
Reminds me of your question to me
>>>Have you built any planes?<<<
Warning: This answer might make you laugh.So I was at Omega Institude not long ago spending a week with Ram Dass and friends..there were about 100 or so of us out by the lake listening to RD and coharts speaking about consciouness...I got up and apparently asked him a questioned that seemed to bother some people in the group for some reason but I know RD loved it!
I said that when I lived up in Millbrook with Leary in the late 60's he spoke about the same thing...consciouness. Cept his vehicle was different than RD's..his as you know was hullucenigens while RD's was meditation even though he did use psychotropic substances as well...just wasn't his main vehicle. Tim used to compare RD's way to his by explaining....oh yeh your question about building planes....he used to say that mind expansion was obtainable several ways and to him all of them were fine as long as you took the journey BUT...why walk from NY to California when you could take a plane!...lol
So I presented that to RD cuz I always wondered what he thought of that...He went on for a good hour about it...and basically agreed with Tim cept for RD he prefered the slower route...he basically said he was able to take more in that way. i always agreed with him about that.
So, yeh I've built planes but I prefer walking.....
Not the planes you were talking about??? LOL
Namaste'
avi
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Do others struggle with this craftsmanship/conscience issue?>>>
I suppose, but like a politician they soon give in to the reality that time and money is all that counts........
Craftsmanship has gone with the times.......carpenters are mechanics now......you buy everything made up in the mill and just put it on.
The only craftsmanship left is how well you cut your miters.
I used to show off (when I made furniture) my hand cut dovetails and all the other stuff I did to create a really nice desk or something.......but nobody really cared and few knew the difference.
It all boiled down to price........"Well, that's nice, but I can get the same thing at wallmart for a lot less".......how many time have I heard that one?...lots.......till I gave up and saved my craftsmanship for my self.
There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
Jaded?......and with some good reasons, I am sure.I contend that if you take craftsmanship far enough, it is no longer in competition with making money. I believe it is the reason I am making money. Housing starts and building permits for remodeling in my market have dropped by half the last two years in a row, but I am busier than ever (even though I am the most expensive carpenter in this county).Most guys here have been slow or even out of work, and I am working weekends and turning work away.One builder I trim for said the quality of my work may have helped him sell another house. If I helped the builder land another custom home, there are still people out there paying attention to details and looking for quality. So craftsmanship can help keep the wheels of commerce turning (in a niche market) and help make the builder and all the other subs more money.Have a passion for what you do and do it like your life depends on it...because it does.Cheers,Brian
Jaded?...>No, but I am retired :-)
There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
Words are important to me. There is a difference between having a "job" and a "profession". Similarly there is a difference between "working" and "practising your craft".
"Craftsmanship" doesn't imply a level of quality to me. It requires a descriptive word alongside it - "fine craftsmanship", "good craftsmanship", "poor craftsmanship". The same for the word "craftsman" (or maybe that should be "craftsperson").
A craft is something a person develops over time, not a certain level of skills or ability to produce a certain level of quality. It's more like a journey. Skills developed certainly are part of that journey, but the goal is not some specific point. The goal is simply to improve, to go deeper, to learn more.
Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Don't forget the wood butchers who couldn't care less.
Maybe that's why we call them careless.
I suppose, but like a politician they soon give in to the reality that time and money is all that counts........
JJ, glad all dont see things your way.
Have you ever been over to Knots and seen any of the work that Rob Mallard does? Heres is a link to a Seymour reproduction piece that he did. There are a few others over there that do some amazing stuff, and are doing it for a living.
33037.1
Rob has mentioned that he doesnt use a jointer, planer and other tools that you or I think a necessity. Most of his work is hand done.
Lee Grindinger used to frequent this place more often, still see him from time to time but mostly over at knots. His work is also mainly hand done, not many other ways to do that kind of work.
http://www.furniturecarver.com/
These are two guys that I've seen on FWW/FHB but I personally know a few others that are capable and do work of this nature. I dont see the shortcuts for money that you refer to, I'm thankful for that to.
This isnt a dig towards your methods but I'm glad that there are still guys out there doing this level of work, I dont think Ikea will be in everybodies homes any time to soon.
Doug
So is "PRIDE" a requirement of a craftsman?
it just goes hand in hand...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
J, glad all dont see things your way.>>>>>>>Just keeping it real......I hand built most of my furniture/chairs the few years I was in the business.....sometimes from the tree up.......used mostly hand cut mortise and tennon and hand cut dovetails etc.....have had a retail store and a booth in a market place. My sales seldom exceded my liabilities.BUT although I agree with you that a few guys can make a go of it and sell their stuff for the big money do you realize the size of the market these guys are in? Especially in the mid-west? My best pieces I sold all at once one day when a guy from NY came into my store....it happens.That high end market you are speaking about buys as much by name as 'works'....like an artist it's all in the name.....Like most, I've been cursed by the need for cash... money and craftsmanship seldom make good bed partners.Craftsmanship is like a Japanese tea ceremony. The end product is not as important as the path one takes to get there.Carpentry is a way to make a living and feed the kids.If the high end market was all that great you wouldn't have all these 'names' selling books and opening schools. That's their cash cow...being a master.
There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
jj
Carpentry is a way to make a living and feed the kids.
I agree - I'm still waiting for something better to come along! Any day now.
I dont disagree with you regarding the niche in the market place for the the very best, and thats a hard market to break into.
Obviously the guys that I posted work from have that reputation. Not all of us could build that same stuff and be able to sell it for what we would need to in order to make a profit - especially here in the midwest.
Doug
Edited 5/8/2007 9:30 am ET by DougU
Craftsmanship is music.
Huck,
I love this thread--your original post and all of the responses to it.
If craftsmanship is important to you but not so much to the world around you, just don't let the world around you bother you so much. My thoughts are that what people perceive to be craftsmanship is changing.
My wife loves to go to IKEA and marvel at how clever and stylish and innovative their stuff is. It irritates her when I refer to it as
"curb furniture." But LOTS of people think it's of the highest quality.
As to your Greene and Greene report, the Greene brothers may have been masters of design and understanding of craftsmanship, but the Hall brothers are the true craftsmen of the trade of furniture building and construction methods. They are the ones who executed the Greene plans--many times verbal, without drawings--to the highest degree of a true craftsman.
I would be interested in your response to this hypothetical: A trim carpenter does the best he possibly can on a project, and is proud of his work, yet it is not up to the foreman's standards of craftsmanship. The homeowner loves it. The foreman takes his money for the job and gets on to the next one.
Who is the real craftsman in this?
"Roger Staubach for President"
Edited 5/7/2007 5:46 pm by doorboy
"I would be interested in your response to this hypothetical: A trim carpenter does the best he possibly can on a project, and is proud of his work, yet it is not up to the foreman's standards of craftsmanship. The homeowner loves it. The foreman takes his money for the job and gets on to the next one.
Who is the real craftsman in this?"I'd make an argument that it is the foreman who is the craftsman just as much as the carpenter who is doing the best he can under the supervision of someone with more experience. As a leader he is like a football coach, doing the best he can with the employees and materials he has to work with. Not every project will live up to our standards and not every client will demand the very best we can do. We need to give our employees the freedom to learn and to stretch beyond the limits of their competency. We need to enable them to learn and to become better at their craft as we need to challenge ourselves to become better at our own. In the end excellence is a whole lot more fun than mediocrity.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I've got to say that when faced with the choice between the mass produced Ikea furniture and the often overworked craftsman stuff I see in Fine Woodworking, I often come down on the side of the "curb furniture".
Don't get me wrong, this is completely independent of any justifiable pride in the quality of craft that went into their construction. Its just that I find many woodworkers have retreated into a world of beautiful joints and finishes almost as an attempt to deny the realities of the modern world, and their work seems anachronistic. Apart from putting them in the corner and staring at them, I can't imagine how I would integrate them into the way I and the people around me live.
Huck,
Great question, and one that obviously many here have thought about and struggled with. Many feel it is a way of life, sort of.....or a way of looking at life, or living your life. I think, the bottom line is.... It's all about me.... . How do I perceive myself? How do others perceive me? We want others to know us thru action and deed not just what we say. We want to have the respect of people.And to feel better than some. It is all about me and me feeling good about me and that is a good thing. Bottom line.
Now about the craftsmanship thing, assuming you know about and believe in the Apprentice, Journeyman, Craftsman, Master Craftsman way of life you figure out it is all about learning. It is about learning more and more about less and less And in this process learning about ourselves. Oh and the skill to do what needs to be done,proficiently. You can't move on to the next step until you have completed this one. Not saying you can't be multi-tasking. Like getting badges in Boy Scouts.
Craftsmanship et all, is a huge thing, and hard to get our heads wrapped around. So in our trying to understand it we put limitations on it, as you did by saying perfectionism, is different. To me perfectionism would be a marginal issue. My personal issue was with art and design blurring the practical and funcuntiallity of something. In my youth, it came to a head at a summer craft/art fair. Some artist-guy was selling "Chairs" made out of particle board nailed together, brightly painted and highly decorated, he was sold out and taking orders for them. For some reason I became indignant and angry, How dare he call these chairs and what the fxxx are people doing buying them,......you can't even sit in them! I have come to terms with those feelings over the years. Craftsmanship in the broadest sense has no boundaries and that is kinda what we are talking about as, a way of life. But,,,,,,
In the Trades it is different, defined, refined. A Journeyman was given the tools by a Master to perform a task. When he could perform that task tired, drunk, bored,blind folded, to the Masters satisfaction he moved on to the next task until he could do all the tasks second nature. He had achieved a technical skill level and wanted to learn more.
The Master can't or won't show/teach him any more, so he cuts him loose and sends him on his way. The Journeyman has learned how to learn and hopefully about himself, but he was given tools and materials and instruction. He did not interact with clients,knew there was difference in materials , but not why or how, did not have all the tools or how to make them, and he had in the past only had to deal with a defined set of well known tasks.
The technical aspects are now the easy part of the craft, maybe even the boring part. The journey ahead of the man is to master his chosen craft. And so it begins again, you are an apprentice, but at a higher skill level and with more risks. Many fail,some chose to do one thing very well, some a couple things, a few all things. The excitement of learning should never stop,over coming failure is the reward of learning about yourself.
My book selection for you is "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance"
Dave
Your comment about multitasking like boy scouts hits a sour chord, (no not a note, the ###### chord), with me. I remember working on merit badges for weeks and some for months to get proficient and skilled enough to earn them. The surveying took over a month, carpentry was six weeks. Both of them had actual projects and skills you had to master and exhibit to the merit badge advisor.
Now they can have a meeting and crank out surveying, engineering, and drafting in a Saturday.
You're an eagle scout. So what.
I think it is demonstrative of a general move by our society to value the cover more than the content. Or, maybe it has been that way for ever.
goes back to "Time is money".“Ilsa, I’m no good at being noble, but it doesn’t take much to see that the problems of three little people don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world”.
You have that pride gene, THAT CAN BE REMOVED!!
Having several different backgrounds, surveying, CAD, and for the last 10 years, light remodeling, furniture, and cabinet making, "craftsmanship" may mean different things to an individual in the different phases of his life.
"Craftsmanship" in a land survey, means that the tract closed beyond minimum standards, all points were set, and the meets and bounds were prepared to the satisfaction of the customer, and the customer felt he got their "money's worth."
Lately, I've had the opportunity to see a lot of my past furniture and cab work and how it's held up over the years. It's done well, and people are satisfied and have been repeaters. Not high-end, but solid and practical.
IMHO, I don't think the person doing the work has the perspective to consider it "craftsmanship." That needs to be left to others.
It is simply the combination of the knowledge, skill, and willingness to complete a task correctly.
"correctly"?Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
yeah...correctly!
say you are a certified hardwood floor installer. you have demonstrated the skill and knowledge to practice your craft at a expert level, but you decide that you will save a few bucks by not following the nailing schedule and skimping on a coating or two of finish. you haven't performed the task correctly...that is poor craftsmanship
now say you do nail the floors with the correct schedule and apply the required finish coatings...that is good craftsmanship
it is making sure you do the things that are not seen that result in not only a good looking product but a long lasting.
here is a example i came across last week while I was helping a contractor strip my siding and homasote sheething. My house is 58 years old...keep in mind. When we got down to the studs we found framing around the windows that had never seen a drop of water. I live in PA so it should be known that this house has seen it fair share of heavy driven rain. there was no flashing...only deliberately detailed mill work that prevented water penetration. That is craftsmanship.
"now say you do nail the floors with the correct schedule and apply the required finish coatings...that is good craftsmanship"
That's where we disagree. That's like saying meeting code is good craftsmanship. You are celebrating that that installer did what he was required to do. That's not craftsmanship in my mind, that's simply following directions.
That word "correct"...just doesn't sit well with me. It implys there is ONE correct way to do any particular job. A craftsperson can get professional results with a variety of techniques, the work they produce is a reflection of their craft, an expression of their self. They might do it one way one day, and another the next. Each would meet the minimum requirements you layed out in your example, neither would be "correct". Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
James
well, when I saw it I was thinking that, that word had far too m any meanings and I've seen what that means to many different people. the word also to me...was far too general to cover the answer of craftsmanship because craftsmanship not only deserves a technical definition but a sort of spiritual one along with it being to me..it encompasses mind/body and soul....
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OOOOHHHHHHMMMMMMM!!!!!!;)I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
I am agreeing with you here.For instance, in the case of flooring, the craftsmanship would not be in the number of fasteners and of coats of finish, but in selecting grainmatching, length alignments, using the best fasteerners, and the best finish for that material and job regardless whether it is two coats or four coats,
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think I sorta know what you were thinking.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
What, brotherman? What do you think I was thinking?Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Don't have time to read the entire thread, so I'll just write this:
To some people, a meal is good ingredients prepared in a thoughtful way to bring out the best within those ingredients. The meal is then presented in a way to so the recipient will not only be satisfied by the aroma and the taste, but the visual as well.
To others, a meal is a box of Hamburger Helper. Sometimes it's even prepared in accordance with the directions on the box.
To some people, construction is a profession. To others, it's simply a job.
I have been thinking about this question for most of the day.
I have decided that there are two things that make a craftsman. The first is a certain level of skill. Without this skill, it is impossible to be a craftsman. The second requirement is an interest in producing the highest possible quality that one is capable of. This quality is manifested by good design and execution.
By these standards I am not a craftsman. I simply do not care enough about the finished product meet this standard. I have a skill level that produces work good enough to satisfy almost any customer but I know that I could do better work but am not willing to pay for this work myself if the customer is not willing. If I was doing the work for myself, it would be at a lower standard, not a higher one.
Does this mean that I have no conscience? I prefer to reserve this judgement for things of more import, such as how I treat other people. Am I patient with my children? Do I listen to my wife? Do I share myself with friends and neighbors? Do I treat my employees fairly? Do I give my customers more than they expected? These are areas where I frequently fall short and where I should feel shame.
I do know some true craftsmen. I admire their work but I don't have any interest in trying to duplicate it. What is right for them is not right for me. It is this difference that makes the world an interesting place.
craftmanship is all about money, I can build a bookcase for$1400 and it will look good. or I can make a $3000 bookcase for $1400 and lose my shirt. so craftmanship is money, how much craftmanship can you afford.“Ilsa, I’m no good at being noble, but it doesn’t take much to see that the problems of three little people don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world”.
I, for one, appreciate your honesty.....and you're the guy I would hire.
There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
I think there are two sides to what craftsmanship is. The one definition is what people here have been saying, and that is to do the job correctly, doing all the steps even though one could get away with cutting corners for the sake of money. Craftsmanship is not about money, I totally disagree with the one post that says this.
The other view of what craftsmanship is has to do with the person performing the task. They may do the job correctly, but then they may take it a step or two further, and innovate, or do small things to the project that don't necessarily need to be done to qualify the job as craftsman-done. They may see something within the finished product that could be improved upon by modifying it which leads to new ideas. This is craftsmanship most certainly
What makes Krenov, or Maloof or Tage Frid or some of the guys on this forum stand out as master craftsmen? Is it just 'doing the job right'? (as they already do), or is it something beyond?
Stickley built simple furniture for the common man, but it was done well, so well in fact that he did not try and hide and smooth out the joints like so many other furniture builders, rather he celebrated the through joinery in the tenons, accentuating the pegging sometimes with different woods and revealed ends that were shaped. To look at the detail of a Morris Chair or Stickley table and how it was built gives one a sense of something that is built well and made to last.
Same way in carpentry or any of the trades, even the mechanics although the room for art and design may be smaller there.
Innovation can be a form of craftsmanship.
I have a small Craftsman desk in my LR, from the era. Quatersawn oak with the tiger stripes and fumed finish. Still gets polished for company.
Stickley built simple furniture for the common man, but it was done well, so well in fact that he did not try and hide and smooth out the joints like so many other furniture builders, rather he celebrated the through joinery in the tenons...
Stickley wanted his designs to be "honest"; for that reason, he chose not to hide the joinery, but, as you said, to celebrate it. I think there's a lot of that same philosophy in Craftsman architecture; exposed rafter tails, functional roof brackets, useful built-ins, etc. Like the furntiture, the house's function is plain to see, and becomes part of the inherent beauty in the design.
My memory may be fuzzy here, but I don't think his furniture was ever priced such that the "common man" could afford it. It was somewhat ironic, but the "honesty" of his designs demanded a level of precision and hand detailing that added significantly to the overall cost.
I'm sure Stickley would roll in his grave to learn of modern "interpretations" of "Craftsman" furniture which include, for example, glued-on, fake through-tenons.
I think that Stickley DID price his furniture for the "common man."
Those old catalogs show very reasonably priced furniture that most people could afford. He even built a lot of pieces with keyed through tenons and exposed pegs so he could ship them "knocked down."
I think his genius was more in the lifestyle of craftsmanship rather than in the execution of the product. After all, he built very few of the pieces with his own hand. He dealt with labor issues like we all do today, and in the end the popularity of his designs faded and he lost his business and was largely forgotten until a revival of his style years later. In this regard he is no different from Rennie MacIntosh, John Rushkin, William Morris, and others of the Arts and Crafts movement."Roger Staubach for President"
Those old catalogs show very reasonably priced furniture that most people could afford.
Do you have a reproduction (or antique) catalog with pricing? What year is it from, and what are some of the prices?
Sorry for being so slow to reply, Ragnar, but I had to look up my source. Some examples from the 1910 Gustav Stickley catalog:
The classic Morris recliner, No. 332 with leather upholstery--$33.
No. 623 trestle dining table, $35.
Chairs for above table, leather cushions--$7 ea.
No. 814 sideboard, similar to Barbra Streisand's 250K sideboard--$68.I'm fully aware that these prices are about a hundred years old, but I think the economy was strong,not depressed, and these prices seemed to be aimed at the middle class of the time. I think the recent resurgence in interest of Stickley's furniture--in large part because of Ms. Streisand--has re-marketed the line to an almost elitist clientele. That might help explain why so many individuals would rather build them themselves than purchase them. That and the fact that there are so many reliable plans that Stickley himself and others have published over the years."Roger Staubach for President"
Ms Streisand has been pushing Stickley furniture? That's almost enough to turn me away from it (almost, but not quite) ;)
Thanks for the pricing, by the way. I agree with you that 1910 seems to have been a strong economic year. By coincidence, I happen to have a reprint of a 1910 Sears Home Builder's Catalog. Beautiful front doors were between $6 and $10, and interior doors were $2 to $6. Most window sash were less than $1. Sears would send you ALL the materials (including paint!) to build an entire two-story house for between $400 and $1400.
It's kind of pathetic sometimes how much things have inflated.
Anyway, the point is that even at $35, a dining room table may have been a bit on the spendy side back in 1910. I'll have to admit that comparing front doors to tables is apples and oranges. I guess the best comparison would be to see what "average" furniture ran back in 1910.
I have to go now, but maybe later on I'll be able to scan and post a few pictures.
Kind regards,
Ragnar
Edited 5/10/2007 10:00 pm ET by Ragnar17
I seem to recall that Gustav (sp?) Stickley had a brother who jumped onto the success of Gustav and sold pieces of poorer quality under the Stickley name and it became a problem because peole thought Gustav's quality had gone down. I think it even affects things today--people buy a Stickley, thinking it's high quality and find out later it's something made by the brother.
He had 4 brothers who were involved with the Stickley Brothers company. But I don't recall anything about an inferior product from them. L. and J.G. Stickley is the company that two of the brothers founded (apparently with Gustav's support and encouragement), and is still in existence today. It seems more that they were better businessmen than their brother, than anything else. And, I'm assuming from the statement below that if they were making furniture for Wright, they were doing it under contract to him, and not producing knock-offs. And I can't imagine old Mr. Wright accepting anything less than perfection.
"In 1902, John George left Stickley Brothers Furniture Company to open the Onondaga Shops with Leopold in Fayetteville, New York, incorporating four years later as L. & J.G. Stickley, Inc. They made furniture that resembled Gustav's. They also made furniture that was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Gustav now found himself in competition with his younger brothers. Leopold and John George were astute businessmen who rapidly expanded their business using designs borrowed from their brother. Gustav lacked his brothers business acumen. He encouraged builders and artisans to alter his plans to suit their needs, which put money in their pockets and not in his. He eventually declared bankruptcy.
L. & J.G. Stickley introduced their first furniture line at a 1905 trade show in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Their collection of "simple furniture built along mission lines" was very well received and helped set the standard in fine American woodwork for the entire furniture industry through the end of World War I.
In 1922 Leopold Stickley announced the introduction of the Cherry Valley Collection; a "line of period designs in popular finishes." These adaptations of traditional New England and Pennsylvania furnishings included trestle tables, corner cupboards, dressers and Windsor chairs fashioned from wild black cherry wood from the Adirondacks."
WHAT exactly is craftsmanship, in your opinion, and if its important to you, WHY? Why does it matter? Do others struggle with this craftsmanship/conscience issue?
I think we all believe in the importance of craftmanship. The problem is that everyone has there own idea of what craftmanship is and rarely do these ideas come close to being the same.
For myself it means "taking the time" to do a job right. Even if it means loosing money. You see, I don't view it as a loss. I find the customers appreciate it. I believe that if you leave even one thing incomplete or not finished as it should be that the H.O. will only remember what wasn't done right.
I believe that a job is an extension of myself. It says what kind of person I am. It's like having good manners or being courtious and repectful to others. These actions reflect on you as a person. ....as does your work.
It might sound a little corny but it's what I believe.
Dave
For myself it means "taking the time" to do a job right. Even if it means loosing money. You see, I don't view it as a loss. I find the customers appreciate it. I believe that if you leave even one thing incomplete or not finished as it should be that the H.O. will only remember what wasn't done right
Becareful, I expressed that very sentiment in another thread and was told how foolish I was!
BTW, I completely agree with you.
Doug
If it is the thread I amm thinking of, I don't recall anybody saying you were foolish. Many just had different opinions from yours is all.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe the word "foolish" itself wasnt used but the implication was certainly there!
I believe expectations have to be met and I'm not compromising mine. Maybe I'll just have to be content with the little money that I make.
Sorta what sums up my attitude - the other day my boss calls the guy that I partner in work with, it was a Friday, we dont normally work Fridays. He tells Dave that we can go home whenever we want, (we had already worked 8 hrs) Dave tells him, "Well Doug will do whatever he wants anyway but I'll tell him!"
That may not be a good thing, and I'm not even bragging about it, but thats who I am.
Doug
Interesting thread.
For me, craftsmanship in the building trade is a balance.
Some of the best advice I ever received was while helping a friend of mine trim a house, Piecework. The Homeowners BIL Tony was a retired carpenter in his 60's, bad back, bad legs, and hurting. Tony was building a desk flanked by a set of arched maple bookcases.
I had seen a lot of good work in my day but the detail and the tightness of this man's work was exquisite. I was trying extra hard to make a good impression. After the second day, Tony came up to me and said, "Your doing a nice job, but if you try and make everything perfect, you're not gonna make any GD money! Make it nice, and that's good."
Good thread. A craftsman and a businessman are two poles of the same magnet. It's important to maintain a balance, which is income, which lets us continue what we do. An obsession with one or the other leads to disarray.
Ideally, every job would have the finest materials and work, and commensurate pay for such work, but often I must build for what the client wants, which is many times utilitarian and mundane and functional only, but this in turn allows me to pursue other jobs that are challenging, and rewarding.
Shame is never part of the equation, only some self-disappointment if on some work, it's not what I quite envisioned. But ultimately the customer is happy, or unhappy,then I learn, and continue the elusive goal of perfection,which is self satisfaction expressed in the finished product.
Expert since 10 am.
One of the ways you define yourself is by what is important to you.
Some things that may be important to you and less so to the world at large are possibly your family, the environment, your religion, your friends, your country, your books, and your craftsmanship. The world's opinion should not weigh too strongly in these matters.