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Discussion Forum

Is it Shellac or Varnish?

Waters | Posted in General Discussion on December 16, 2006 02:14am

About a 3rd of the DFir woodwork in my own house has it’s original warm, dark gold clear finish.  The rest is painted… 1930 House.

A fellow who was over thought it was a shellac finish and claimed I could bring the old beat-up staircase back to life by rubbing it with denatured acohol.  I read this to be true by searching this site.

The alcohol doesn’t really move it around much, at least at first go witha clean rag, so I wonder.  Could be too old?  Need more elbow grease?  Scotchbrite?

Or is it varnish?

A heat gun (thankfully) will cause that orginal finish to bubble under all 6 layers of paint which then come off in sheets.  (respirator and ventilated)  Also, what would be suggested to remove the rest of the paint residue after the initial heating.  While it’s still hot you can swipe it with a rag or scotchbrite right down clean to the original finish, but that’s a lot of rags and scotchbrite!

Will the shellac bubble like that too or is it varnish?

Can I get some tips on positively identifying this finish and how to repair it or possibly blend it consistent with itself without stripping?

Thanks,

Pat

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  1. highfigh | Dec 16, 2006 02:24am | #1

    It wouldn't matter how old the finish is, if it's shellac with nothing over it, denatured would dissolve it. If you go beneath the top coat and try it, it will dissolve if it's shellac.

    "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
  2. nikkiwood | Dec 16, 2006 03:43am | #2

    Alcohol will dissolve pure shellac, but sometimes it doesn't do so instantly. I would suggest putting the alcohol in a spray bottle and try keeping the surface wet for about 30 seconds or more. If it looks like it is melting, try dipping a Scothbrite pad in the alcohol and rub it over the surface.

    Another possibility is that the finish is an alkyd (not polyurethane) varnish. If that's the case, one of the proprietary furniture refinishers (like Formby's) might dissolve it. During the time frame your house was built, a lot of the woodwork was finished with a "varnish stain" -- which as the name implies, was just an old-fashion oil varnish with a little stain mixed in for color.

    It is very unlikely it was lacquered, but if you have some lacquer thinner, I'd give that a try also.

    For the stuff that's painted, you're using the best method (heat). For clean-up, you might try liquid stripper in a spray bottle, followed with a putty knife to remove the bits of paint. Usually, it is necessary to use a sharp scraper (and sanding) to finish up.

    I've done a whole lot of stripping and refinishing, and every job seems to be a little different. The trick is to be patient and figure out the combination of tools and materials that will work on a given surface.

    ********************************************************
    "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

    John Wooden 1910-

    1. Waters | Dec 16, 2006 03:58am | #3

      Thanks! Exactly the sort of response i was looking for.

      Yes, that's what I was wondering myself, about the varnish.  There does appear to be a stain in the finish.   In spots where I removed hinges and catches you can see bare wood and hints of that first staining/finishing and there is certainly tint goin' on.

      I tried to match it, pretty successfully actually, with a mix of a couple common stains when i did some more trim work, but now we're really going to get at it with the heat guns and try to push through getting rid of a lot of paint and make everything a lot more cohesive.

      I'll go get some formby's and see what it does--and also try a longer, wetter aplication of the alcohol.

      Thanks,

      Pat

       

      1. nikkiwood | Dec 16, 2006 05:29am | #4

        I didn't want to get into it in my previous post, since there are a lot of complications. But if it is what I think it is the, the "varnish stain" can be removed pretty easily by just scraping it off, without using any chemicals at all. You need a very sharp scraper (I favor narrow ones that have a 1" blade), and you will need to practice your technique. It is possible to do a lot of damage in a hurry, if you don't handle the scraper just right. I also use such a scraper to clean up after heat-gunning a painted surface. The problem is, the scrapers I use were made by Warner, but are no longer being sold. I haven't been able to find any others that are as effective.Nonetheless, you might try buying one or two types, and give them a go on an inconspicuous area. If you can make them work, you'll have that old varnish off the surface way faster than using chemicals.********************************************************
        "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

        John Wooden 1910-

        1. kate | Dec 16, 2006 11:12pm | #9

          There are wonderful scrapers made by Sandvik in Scandinacia, with carbide blades - several different sizes.  A bit hard to find (mine are from an independent, high-end paint store) & expensive, but worth it.  They have orange handles...

          1. sharpblade | Dec 17, 2006 02:58am | #11

            I second the suggestion on the Sandvik carbide scrapers. They come in 3 sizes, triangle with three  3/4" edges, and 2 different double edgers, ~2 and ~3"available at HD. I also saw similar ones from Warner at Blowes

            The nice thing about them is when they're new & sharp, and with the proper technique and some muscle, you can scrape thick dry finish off flat surfaces into flakes.  Vacuum off.  Way faster and cleaner than heat or strippers. Better for the air quality too. Follow with sanding or as part of a combo with other techniques. Carbide stays sharp way longer than regular steel knives.  When dull, flip to other edge. When that's dull, put in new blade and keep working. Save older one for touch up on Si C using scary sharp technique.

            Considering that time is money, these tools are a good value.

            Edited 12/16/2006 6:59 pm ET by sharpblade

          2. nikkiwood | Dec 17, 2006 03:20am | #12

            I do know about those Sandvik scrapers, but I never had as much luck with them as the now defunct Warner scrapers. The latter have a half-moon shaped steel blade, which you can quickly bring to a razor sharp edge with a mill file. They do dull fairly quickly, but you can bring the edge back with a couple of swipes with the file.Stripping/refinishing is an art, and a personal art at that. I think you have to experiment to find some combination of tools, techniques, and materials that work for you. Everybody I know who has done it takes a little bit different approach, and that's the way it should be. About 10-15 years ago I did a lot of that kind of work, mainly because I was fast and the work was lucrative. But I got tired of it, and moved on. Besides, my sense is that the fashions are swinging back to paint again, since there seem to be growing numbers of people who think an old house full of stain and varnished woodwork is "dark and gloomy."********************************************************
            "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

            John Wooden 1910-

      2. splintergroupie | Dec 16, 2006 06:25am | #5

        I did a houseful of trim like yours, and found bubbling the varnish layer up with the heat gun, following with paint stripper, to be the fastest method. I ended up removing all the trim in order to work on it on sawhorses instead of in the room bec the stripper made me dizzy, even with a respirator. I preferred Bix "Tuff Job" for the best results; the 'citrus-safe' one i tried was almost useless.For tools, i like to stick to plastic. Plastic scrapers for the heat gun part, and a plastic bristle brush and water wash to take the paint stripper and residue off. I repaired and spray-painted the trim on the sawhorses - easy-peasey way to do it and made taking the trim out worthwhile.I doubt your trim was stained, but you are seeing underneath the hardware what the natural color of the wood was before it acquired a 'patina', i.e. oxidation and exposure to UV light that changed its color over time. You'll also likely find the painted wood isn't as dark as that left exposed to light, if it was painted some time ago.

        Edited 12/15/2006 10:29 pm ET by splintergroupie

  3. User avater
    BruceT999 | Dec 16, 2006 09:31am | #6

    A common technique at the time your house was built was to seal pine or fir with orange shellac, thereby giving it a rich golden color, and then to finish with a coat or two of varnish. Shellac under varnish keeps the varnish from soaking into the porous parts of the wood and losing its gloss.

    Shellac is a solution in ethanol and dries very quickly by evaporation. It can be re-dissolved by alcohol. Shelf life in the can is limited - after a while the stuff gets cloudy and won't dry hard, just sort of gooey.

    Varnish is an alkyd (oil), reduced with mineral spirits, that dries slowly by evaporation and then cures by oxidation. Once cured, it won't re-dissolve and must be removed by heat or strong chemical strippers.
    BruceT



    Edited 12/16/2006 11:43 am ET by BruceT999

  4. DEEVEE | Dec 16, 2006 07:30pm | #7

    Not a pro but I stripped lots of things in my 1916 house during its renovation - trim, stair treads, spindles, railings, raised/recessed panels on doors and walls, fluted columns on fireplace mantel, stone (not brick) fireplace, drawer fronts, doors, bookshelves......etc

    Thru trial and error I found the best chemical remover is Ace Hardware Extra Strength.  Need respirator and ventilation as you do with all chem strippers.  Found it fastest & most efficient.  Is a gel so will stay on vertical surfaces better.  Have sometimes layed plastic wrap on top to (1) keep it moister longer (2) keep it from slowly dripping down on vertical surfaces.

    Not a fan of sprayed on chemical strippers.  Sprayer usually gets gunked up and is more trouble than its worth. tough to control spread of overspray too.

    I use both metal and plastic putty knives - favor 1" wide but will use wider "half round" style as well for larger surfaces.  Also can buy, or get used from dentist, dental tools for finer details.  Also can buy sanding ropes/strings too, for things like narrow details on stair spindles.

    Had a room full of oak shellaced surfaces (with no stain or paint - just shellac) where it had aged so much is was dark dark brown and had no idea I had beautiful oak grain below. I started with chem stripping, but found sanding directly worked the best.  The shellac sanded right off into a fine dust (wear protection over nose/mouth) and got right down to bare wood.  With chem stripping, I find "color" still remains and has to be sanded down to bare wood anyway, so sanding directly saved a step, in this particular application.

    On stone fireplace, only product that worked was Peel Away.  (have to use proper type of product depending on application). Other chems just couldnt cut thru the 5 layers of paint being on the cold stone surface, I guess. (top coat was high gloss black oil paint - ugly!!)

    As I said, am not a pro, but have done a lot and the above is what I favor.  Just some ideas for you!

    1. nikkiwood | Dec 16, 2006 08:38pm | #8

      That product you mentioned, Peel Away, is one that anybody who is stripping painted surfaces should know about.http://www.dumondchemicals.com/html/products.htmI have used the Peel Away 7 for both wood and masonry surfaces. Expensive, but effective.********************************************************
      "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

      John Wooden 1910-

      1. DEEVEE | Dec 17, 2006 02:32am | #10

        Peel Away is a good product.  But one of the reasons I don't always use it is due to its somewhat messy clean up.  Yes, you peel off the paper and the junk underneath comes with it, or if not, just scrape it off. 

        But, to "rinse" the residue off only takes water, but you contstantly have to have clean water available because the residue dirties the water on the sponge and in the bucket immediately.  would be great if you could wash the stuff off with a hose.  but inside a home...no way.  I personally found that extremely frustrating. 

        It seems the residue takes so long to wipe off with many dipping of your sponge into fresh water each time.  I had two buckets - one for dipping and one for squeezing out the sponge.  but can't squeeze /ring enough out before it starts mucking up the fresh water.  I used on a stone fireplace 12 feet tall, 5 feet wide, with intriciate carvings.  Worked great on it; and I was able to push the peel away into all the little crevices and carvings.  But clean up was a pain.

        Just my experience with it.-

         

        1. nikkiwood | Dec 17, 2006 03:33am | #13

          Mess is certainly part of the deal with any of the chemical strippers.I liked the Peel Away 7, mostly because it was less toxic than any of the strippers with methylene cloride; and I never found any other "evironmentally friendly" strippers that would do the job -- like Citri-strip or the 3M stuff. You must have been using one of the other Peel Away products, since you don't want to use water with the PA 7. With the latter, after removing the paper, we would apply liquid sripper with a spray bottle, scrape the little bits of paint that remained, followed by spraying again and scrubbing the surface with scotch brite style pads, and sometimes brass brushes.
          ********************************************************
          "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

          John Wooden 1910-

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