I cant see any change in sight with the economy getting cheaper and I definately cant see any forsight of fuel being cheaper any time in the near future.
Mama has a SUV
Ive got a work truck and as big run around truck. Plus a wrangler tent top.
Im wondering if I shouldnt make a change for a driving truck or station wagon that gets 40 to 50 mpg. Anything really that exceptional mpg. I saw a 50cc scooter that the guy said got 76 mpg. Im wondering if I can balance a table saw on it . <G>
Seriously Ive been thinkin about super MPG on somthing . Go to walmart , eat, lumber yard , hardware store when the haulinbg needs are minimum. Look at houses .
The way I figgure it I can pay for it in clear savings .
Tim
Replies
Our local HVAC shop is gearing up a small fleet of Honda Elements for their guys. They have aftermarket roof racks with Little Giants on them and the rear seats have been taken out. He's still fooling with shelving and storage scenarios to get the inside the way he wants them.
Owner says he can cover 90-95% of his service calls/estimating/running around jobs rather than using a bigger van. Approx 25 mpg vs. low-mid teens...won't take long at $3/gallon to start paying for themselves. And they look good too!
-Norm
My split is much greater than that . My tool truck gets 10.
Its time to let her go.
Tim
Norm: What vehicle do you use in Vermont?
I'm considering replacing my F-150 FWD with a 2WD Ranger. Haven't ruled out a mini-van, but an open bed is convenient for hauling small loads of sand for masonry work.
I'm thinking 12-foot, or even 16-foot lumber could be carried on some sort of rack system. And a modular storage system for tools, etc., could be lifted off the bed (maybe use an overhead hoist in the carriage house) when I'm doing masonry work.
I'm also thinking a small truck could replace both the F-150 and my 2000 Dodge Neon (190K miles).
But is a small truck the worst of all worlds ... not good enough MPG for errands, and not enough carrying capacity for real work?
Allen
I drive a Dodge 2500 (yeah, it's got a hemi). I tow either my tool trailer or dump trailer (with or without tractor on it) 3-4 days a week. I occasionally pull 10,000lbs or more on the dumper so a smaller truck won't work for that. With trailer I get maybe 9-10mpg, w/dump trailer 7-9mpg, without any trailer it skyrockets up to 13-14mpg if I keep my foot out of the gas pedal.
I've shifted my business to do more handyman-type work rather than renovations/remodeling. A couple of days a week I'm now able to load up just the pickup and leave the trailer at home but it seems as though I always forget that one tool bag that has what I need.
There's a couple of guys locally that work out of Toyota Tacoma's with an extra tall cap. Looks kind of crazy because they each have 4-5 ladders stacked on top...I can't imagine with all the stuff they cart around that their mileage (or power) is that good.
I'd like to find a better solution too but the pickup is just so handy when you need it. I'm thinking of adding a 2nd vehicle in the future - gotta justify the purchase expense first.
-Norm
Norm, thanks for that reply.
To save gas, whenever possible I drive my Dodge Neon to worksites. The problem is, like you, I always seem to leave something that I need in the other vehicle. Plus the constant shuffling of tools from the car to the truck, back to the car (and in/out of the workshop) is a huge waste of time.
Allen
I think the smart companies (like Toyota) are going to see the market for fuel efficient work vehicles, like we are seeing in the Sprinter, but better. I'm thinking of a diesel powered van that gets 28-30 mpg. Maybe have 2 drive modes; one for pulling a load and one for economy.
You're right; you can't keep moving your stuff from car to truck and back. You can't afford the time.
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
>>I think the smart companies (like Toyota) are going to see the market for fuel efficient work vehicles, like we are seeing in the Sprinter, but better. I'm thinking of a diesel powered van that gets 28-30 mpg. Maybe have 2 drive modes; one for pulling a load and one for economy.
I hope you're right. I'll be the first customer. Anyone want to buy an '03 F150 with only 20K miles on it?
I like my "02 F150, but I only drive about 4-5,000 miles a year. I get about 18 on the highway driving 65, but most of my miles are more costly.What do you get with yours?+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Mine's the 6 cylinder manual, but I have side boxes and a rack on it, probably somewhere around 750 lbs. including tools in the boxes, and it catches some wind. I know when I leave the dump after a drop that the total weight of vehicle and driver is 5400. Most of my driving is 35-45 MPH two lane hilly, windy stuff. I bet I'm getting about 14 MPG but have never clocked it.
Same. I don't check it with the sort of driving I usually do. Rather not know.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
To save gas, whenever possible I drive my Dodge Neon to worksites. The problem is, like you, I always seem to leave something that I need in the other vehicle. Plus the constant shuffling of tools from the car to the truck, back to the car (and in/out of the workshop) is a huge waste of time.
That is very correct.
Ive tried grabbing a few tools to do a job. Ive went to pick up rent in the jeep and said WTF am I doing with out my tool truck as they will say btw this needs fixed.
Tim
I'm getting about 19.6 with my Dodge diesel in the city. I managed to eek it up to 21.9 mpg when I was doing a series of serious highway drives by setting the speed control to 65 mph.
blue
What rearend ratio do you have?
I have a 2002 2500 diesel HO motor with 6 speed and 410 rearend and the best I can get is 15 but with a heavy load it is more like 13mpg.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Re: trailer. That's another option. A popular one, it seems, amongst Breaktimers. I just don't want yet another "vehicle" to keep licensed and inspected, etc.
Allen
Get a motorcycle for looking at houses. You could get a 400cc bike that would top 50 mpg, I think.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
while it''s true that you can get a motorcycle that gets better fuel mileage. It's not that simple.. Weather for example.. how many days of the year would weather (rain, snow, extreme cold) prevent you from using it?
Load is another item.. even the smallest car can carry a much larger load than a motorcycle..
Safety is the third issue.. Traffic doesn't see motorcycles, traffic density is getting worse and worse.. Too many SUV's driven by soccer moms who are more concerned about junior in the back seat than watching out for motorcycles. (to say nothing about teenage girls on cell phones..
You could make two of those three arguments about mini cars and SUV's. Life's always a compromise.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
The compromise of a motorcycle is one that doesn't make economic sense in most parts of the country..
Winter on a mototorcycle is something I hope I never have to do again. Depending on where you live that may eliminate 50% of the year right off the bat.. add rain days and you are left with maybe 25% of the year when you can save fuel.. So you save three times the fuel over 25% of the year It would take twenty years for the savings to pay for the cost of the motorcycle.. Now add the risk costs and the inconvienance of a motorcycle and it's easy to see why they are toys rather than transportation..
I would never say that the choice to use a motorcycle as a primary mode of transportation is for everyone, but it certainly has it's merits.Mooney said "Go to walmart, eat, lumber yard, hardware store when the haulinbg needs are minimum. Look at houses." I would bet that he could easily do 3-4 or those tasks just fine on a motorcycle. You can buy saddle bags and tank bags, or carry a backpack to handle small items.I have made some large purchases on a bike and always managed to get them home. A little creativity is in order.Let's look at the economics. I could buy a great condition bike for commuting needs for $1,200. Insurance for a guy Tim's age may be as low as $50 for 12 month liability coverage. A real 50 mpg is easily obtained with a small displacement bike. Even if he could only ride the bike once a week I believe it has a good chance of paying for itself.I'll admit that I enjoy riding motorcycles so I would be willing to endure a little more inconvenience than others would. Still, I think the motorcycle can be a viable means of single person transporation.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
I used to ride a great deal.. Wind in your face, the feeling of oneness with your machine,, freedom not available in a car etc..
I also had my best friend rammed so hard by a pickup that his head flew off (helmet still on) I've fallen in rush hour traffic because of unexpected ice on the road and used my legs to prevent me from being run over by the car behind me. (On my back sliding I raised my legs and pushed against the bumper).
I've had the usual skin rashes and bruises from sand or gravel spilt in a turn.
I 've driven in driving rain because I had to get there and was on my motorcycle with no other way.. I've driven the high plateau outside of Mexico City with the heat well over 120 and I sweltered in a leather jacket and helmet.. (in Mexico city I was glad for that same helmet and leather jacket when a cab and I disagreed on who had the right of way)
Motorcycles are wonderful toys, occasionally they can be practical but as a reliable transportation means they lack too much..
Motorcycles are wonderful toys, occasionally they can be practical but as a reliable transportation means they lack too much..
There area are a lot of riders out there who would disagree with you.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
People are free to disagree.. That doesn't make them right.. For example if someone who really enjoys their motorcycle is a strong advocate for them they have made a choice to minimize the value of safety and maximise other values.. They have also choosen to dismiss it's load carring capacity in favor of some other attribute and they either live in a place where weather is a minor factor or are willing to compromise in other ways to enjoy their hobby..
I don't think that motorcycles are bad. I like motorcycles.. But as transportation there are too often compromises made which an impartial judge would find objectionable.
Ok, so you're saying that choosing a motorcycle requires some compromises to be made. Isn't that what I've been saying?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
The compromise of a motorcycle is one that doesn't make economic sense in most parts of the country..
Winter on a mototorcycle is something I hope I never have to do again. Depending on where you live that may eliminate 50% of the year right off the bat.. add rain days and you are left with maybe 25% of the year when you can save fuel.. So you save three times the fuel over 25% of the year It would take twenty years for the savings to pay for the cost of the motorcycle.. Now add the risk costs and the inconvienance of a motorcycle and it's easy to see why they are toys rather than transportation..
Youre wrong Frenchy. Of course you would say its dependent on where you live .
A 50cc scooter is 1000 bucks new . I figgure they would load nicely in a tool trailer. Ive seen several a year old owned by senors for sale from 500 to 750. Im trying to remember but I think they get over a 100 mpg. and a 250 gets 76mpg.
You are in cold climate but we fish and ride bikes 12 months a year . Some of our best fishing is in Febuary .
It doesnt take long to pay for 1000 but then you would have one to enjoy so Im not sure it needs paid for . Walmart , parts store , little lumber yard and hardware store errands . H^ll a sunday paper , coffee shop , cig run , etc . But then how bougt all those summer nights you just want to take the bike?
Tim
So I think it's settled. You're getting a bike, right?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I have to do somthing about the jeep .
Already looks like Sanford and Son around here.
I have a couple of renters that went down on their bike just like Dan did. They were telling me about it and how bikes dont like gravel. Im gettin too old for that shid but yea probably. If I can steal one some where. <G>
Tim
" Safety is the third issue.. Traffic doesn't see motorcycles, traffic density is getting worse and worse.. Too many SUV's driven by soccer moms who are more concerned about junior in the back seat than watching out for motorcycles. (to say nothing about teenage girls on cell phones.."I saw a couple cases of this yesterday. One wasn't a soccer mom.1. A women in the left turn lane stops when she comes up on a yellow light. By the time she stopped it was red. Guy in DirecTV installer truck behind her speeds into the oncoming traffic lanes to get through the intersection. Oh yeah, it was raining and the intersection has about as little vision to the cross street as you can get. Nice.2. One hour later. Same street different intersection. Raining harder at this point. One car caught in the middle of an intersection without a turn arrow went to make her turn after oncoming traffic stopped for a red light. All of the traffic that is except for a woman (with a backseat full of kids and her cell phone) in a Cadillac Escalade decided that she didn't have a minute to sit at a red light. So now we have the first car trying to make it's turn, traffic from the other two sides of the intersection trying to make their turns during the short turn arrows that light has and the soccer mom.I'm convinced that if I had a motorcycle I'd get killed in a week just because of all the idiot drivers in my area.
No offense, Jon, but this could have a down side. In my former life (job) the trucking contactor advertised for a commercial truck driver. An applicant rode up on a bicycle. He was not an athlete....! The upside is we laughed our XXX'x off for days. On the other hand you have to give the guy credit for the effort and ambition to get there to even apply.
If you are doing an investigative scouting mission, this is not a bad plan, but I'm not sure the motorcycle or a bike would inspire confidence in a prospective client if they were aware. If you are just innocently checking the situation as a driveby, it would likely by okay. As a consumer, anybody on a bike, motorized or otherwise, would make me say NO big time. If after your driveby, that I didn't notice, and your folks showed up in real vehicles that could handle the job materials, I wouldn't know the difference. A cheap sneaky check out is a good start to see if you want a job you can see, but don't show up to bid/estimate on one. Not good. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with you, but Mr. Mooney is, by self-proclamation, not interested at all in the retail market.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
76290.57 in reply to 76290.56
I agree with you, but Mr. Mooney is, by self-proclamation, not interested at all in the retail market.
LOL , I never am.
Tim
I bought an '06 Toyota Tacoma at the end of April. The reason was the 20+ MPG, but I haven't been using it for work much. I've been working at multiple jobsites for the past month or so, and the Toyota doesn't have a cap on the bed yet.
I saw a Honda Element the other day all decked out as a work vehicle. I'm kicking myself for not buying one.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
What is a honda element ?
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=ElementIn the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
Thats a prety good deal right there .
Although Im not needing a tool truck I want somthing that has some hauling capacity.
I think they are high though.
Kia makes one for about 11 grand , 10 yr 100,000 warranty. NO air , no power.
Tim
Tim - Take a look at a Scion xb. Starts at 15 grand, gets 34 mpg .
Box shaped small wagon. Might fill the bill for you... Buic
http://www.scion.com/
Edited 7/19/2006 9:31 pm ET by BUIC
Edited 7/19/2006 9:33 pm ET by BUIC
don't know if anyone mentioned it but the New Chevy HHr http://www.chevrolet.com/hhr/ gets 30 mpg and appears to have a fair amount of room for tools and stuff.
Realisticly a fullsize late model truck should get at least 13 mpg or so. Ive had Ford, Dodge and Chevy and they all got right around that loaded with tools. I havent seen anything that can haul a moderate amount of tools and supplies that will get more than 20 mpg in real world conditions unless you go to diesel. I think even 20 is stretching it but Ill go with that. I drive about 20000 bmiles a year. At 3 a gallon thats about 4600 dollars. If i went with something at 20mpg thats 3000 dollars a year. So I can save about 1600 a year if I get a truck that probably wont haul what I need. Not worth it to me right now. If they come up with something that will get 30 mpg or better and will still haul my tools I will start thinking more seriously about it.
I think 20 is the high end. My ford diesel gets 18 or 19, with not much weight in the back. I hear dodges are a bit higher. I think the problem is, how do you make a truck get 30 mpg with a thousand pounds or so, and yet still be able to tow 8,000 lbs (the 5th wheels and the big horse trailers)?
Plus, epa regulations make it not cost effective to sell mid-sized diesel trucks (less than 8,000 gvw) in america. 30 mpg could be done, technologically.zak
"so it goes"
I have a Ford Focus Wagon with a trailer hitch. If I need to go to the job site I hitch up the trailer. If I need to go quote a job or haul tools it usually fits in the back. I get about 500km (300 M) per tank which costs about $35 cdn to fill. 1/4 less than what the pickup cost (at $100 avg to fill up). Just a thought...
"The reason women fart less than men is that they never stop talking long enough to build up any pressure."
Or try a VW jetta wagon TDI (turbo diesle) with a hitch and small trailer when required. It's no pickup, but mine gets 50-55 mpg, and in a few more years my hope is that I'll be running it on recycled french fry grease (until the price of that goes up!)
Plus, heated seats are now standard in VW's, and once you've tried them, you'll wonder how you did without them. Unless you live somewhere warm, in which case the air conditioner only makes mileage drop by a few mpg.
True, wagons are great. I went for a pickup because I end up buying a lot of materials in small increments (remodeling), so I don't really want to go pick up 60 2x4x10s in a wagon.
Also, I make biodiesel, so fuel costs are mostly time. Time is money, I understand, but I kind of like making biodiesel once a week or so. It's no trouble to keep up with my usage, since I fill up about once a month (usually around 25 gallons).
A friend of mine has 3 vw TDIs. They're nice cars. The most useful is a vanagon (originally gas) with a new TDI engine shoehorned in. Gets about 30-35 mpg, no trouble fitting plywood or 12' lumber inside.zak
"so it goes"
VW makes some unique utility machines. I use a 2002 VW Eurovan as my work rig. Gets about 5 mpg better than any other 3/4 ton van. I can haul 30 4x8 sheets of drywall, 12' lumber, tow 4,400 lbs., and get 19 mpg...it really is a 3/4 ton rated, 201 hp van.Check it out:
Edited 7/19/2006 10:03 pm ET by basswood
f350 diesel... best i can get is 15mpg.... it's older non turbo 7.3 international... but it's all mechanical so i can fit it... 165k on it now.... so to be cool i got a lexus LX suv... best i get with it is 12.5mpg.... but i really like it...... then i posted on here when i picked up a subaru forester.. ugly as sin... #1 car for gay women (read that on the net) but it drives well and hauls a ton A/C is so cold i have to keep it on low... and it get'n about 25mpg... i need to take the time and put a hitch on it and i'd take it when i go to the lake and be able to launce the jetskis and my bass tracker... and i could tow my little 5x8 trailer if i needed...
my wife needs a new car now... We are just about past the kids trash'n em 2yo & 8yo... i use to get sick when i'd see her 740il interior covered in cokes & candy... but it comes with kids & dogs... i've just let em destroy it... but have really put off anything new & nice for her... but it's time... the WHAT to buy is the huge question... she really deserves something as nice as i can get her... she does the kids ball games deal so haul'n at least 6 is required... and she only drives about 12k a year so i'm nor sure how huge an issue MPG is... if you count it like an airplane and call it "seat miles per gallon"... I hunt the interent everynite and don't have a clue... all she cares about is that it's white and tan interior... and i like to buy something 2-3years old with 20k miles or so... even my BMW mechanic says... buy a lexus.....
p
My wife drives a forester and I remind her every chance I get that it is the choice of lezbeans... I bought the biggest sprinter van and it gets 2X the gas mileage of my old E-250. I'm waiting on the roof rack, but was able to get a 32' ladder inside it... First vehicle with AC that I've had in a long time.
Edited 7/20/2006 9:29 pm ET by hmj
More details on the Sprinter, PLEASE!!!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I got frustrated with the milage I get on the Safari, so I put my late parent's ford tempo on the road. 2.3 litre, 4 door sedan, good milage, respectable (tooling up to spec out a job on the Honda with leathers is a little toooooo radical for people already concerned about getting ripped off by contractors).Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
I just got one myself. 140" wheelbase, high roof cargo and some decent options. Had an alarm, cargo partition, shelving and a roof rack put on it.
Ran 1/2 tank through it (300 miles) and that was good for 20.4 mpg in mixed driving- that should get better as the engine breaks in- it is rated for 29 mpg empty. I am hoping for around 25.
Thanks!
Have you driven it under high wind conditions yet?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Yes. No problems with winds- it is a Mercedes, you know :)
I had a regular cargo van pass me on the left just ahead of a semi on the right, I was doing 65 MPH- that was a little weird.
It seems to be a bit narrower than a domestic van and the tires seem a bit narrower, so it tracks well on the road.
You definitely notice a strong head wind- but my other van was the same.
It maneuvers quite well at parking lot speeds- heads and tails above any other pickup or van I have driven. It is about the same size as an extended cab pickup with an 8' bed- but it drives in a parking lot like my VW Jetta.
It is speed limited to something like 86 MPH.
If you haven't driven one, go try it out. It is better than you expect.
Once you get it home, it is bigger than it looks at the store...
Thanks. They keep looking better and better.-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I think 20 is the high end. My ford diesel gets 18 or 19, with not much weight in the back. I hear dodges are a bit higher. I think the problem is, how do you make a truck get 30 mpg with a thousand pounds or so, and yet still be able to tow 8,000 lbs (the 5th wheels and the big horse trailers)?
Cause a class A truck pulls 80,000 lbs @ around 7mpg.
Your calculations seem to have worked out about the same as mine did.
When it's time to replace the extant V-8 Behemoth Hauler, I may look into a diesel - perhaps a Sprinter. Until then, I'll keep the behemoth tuned-up and run it until the wheels fall off.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Tim,
I've got an 06 Silverado with a V-6 and an auto. With a light load and watching my foot I can get about 17-19 MPG. It's ok with a load if you remember to lock out the Overdrive.
One of the guys at work just picked up an 06 Jetta TDI as someone else here mentioned. So far he's getting around 40MPG in the city.
You might want to look at some used/ off lease Ford Rangers or Toyota Tacomas with 4 cyl's. They should turn back 28 MPG on a regular basis.
Couple guys I know who are pretty active bought Honda Elements. Not bad when empty but they were disappointed at how sharp the MPG dipped with a load.
One last thought. Minivans are dirt cheap used. My Windstar got around 22MPG fully loaded with kids and bikes and stuff. When I wanted to trade it in at 5 years old and 100K miles it was worth $2500. It still ran well and was in good shape. They just built a gazillion of them.
Thats twice as good as I got .
I bet that old 4wd is worth that too.
Tim
Those small pickups are generally rated to get about 21-23 mpg, unless they were built back in the 80s. Couple of friends have Tacomas and never get 25.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Those small pickups are generally rated to get about 21-23 mpg, unless they were built back in the 80s. Couple of friends have Tacomas and never get 25.
Well, I have an '03 Nissan Frontier and I have gotten 26.73 MPG since I purchased it about 25k ago.
Maybe your friend have a lead foot.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The govt fuel economy site: fueleconomy.gov2003 Nissan Frontier 2WD Nissan Frontier 2WD
4 cyl, 2.4 L, Man(5), Regular 22 25 Nissan Frontier 2WD
4 cyl, 2.4 L, Auto(4), Regular 20 23 I wonder about the govt ratings. I also wonder how much driving style/habits have to do with it. Quite a bit, it seems. Elevation above sea level and driving in hills/mountains or on the flats also make a difference.I'm glad to hear that you do so well with the Frontier. I've had three Nissans and have had very good service from all three. The only one that really got good mileage was the '86 2wd Nissan pickup that I bought new. When it was new I got 34mpg on the highway with AC running. It's mileage went down as it got older, but I kept it 18 years and put 175k on it with minimal problems. I still have my 91 Pathfinder. It's great out in the mountains, but it's never gotten over about 16mpg for me.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
That's pretty cool that I'm doing better than the ratings for highway driving. I am a pretty consevative driver, though.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The Old EPA ratings were based on a test that would in no way pass the reasonable man test.
Lots and lots of MPG claims come from tests of base models with no extra weight or equipment, driven like your grandmother drives on perfectly flat ground with as few stop and go's as possible.
As an example, My last Ford. the MPG figures were for a base V-6 with an Auto.
Add in the Heavy payload package and a 3.55 rear axle and what's on the sticker no longer applies.
If I am light on the pedal and set the cruise at no more than 65 on the highway I can get 22 MPG out of my Silverado. But I don't cause that's not how I drive.
I recently read in one of the magazines that some Hybrid owners are happy as can be and some disappointed to the point of wanting to get rid of the car they paid way too much for and owe way to much on to ever be able to sell.
The biggest difference was driving style. The happy drivers made getting better MPG a game. They drove slower, started off slower and just generally did everything they could to stretch that gallon of gas.
The unhappy drivers just bought Hybrids, drove them like they drove their other cars and expected to get 60 MPG and it doesn't work that way.
I've often wondered about the true dynamics of hybrid ownership & performance.As you mention, some look at it like a challenge and nurse their car along. Of course if they applied this same type of driving behavior to a normal vehicle they would see similar improvements in MPG.I've also heard that the hybrids are low on power. I don't know about all of them, but I have a good friend who has a Civic hybrid and it certainly doesn't have much in the pep department.It seems to me like there is a good chance that someone will spend an extra $5k on a hybrid and then, in order to be reassure themselves that they made a good buying decision, drive it like a granny and overlook the lack of power.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Owning a hybrid has changed the way I drive, whether I'm driving the Prius or our Honda CRV. It's teaching me to slow down and breath. I can't tell you how many time somebody has gone whizzing past me only for me to catch up with them a few lights later.Still, on a recent road trip I set the cruise control at 72 and 77 (7mph over the limit) and I went about 520 miles on about 9.5 gallons of 87 octane gas. I calculated it at 55mpg. Funny thing is that the "average fuel economy" for the tank as reported on the console was just 45mpg. There's a lot of talk on the Prius chats about discrepancies between electronically reported and arithmetically calculated fuel economies, and it can error in either direction.I have no regrets about buy the Prius, but I'm realistic. It's basically a $16K car with a $5K add on. Ideally we'd all be spending a lot more time on our bikes, shoes and the city bus. We could nearly solve the obesity epidemic and dependency of foreign oil with bikes alone. But this isn't realistic. Our entire economy is dependent on rapid, individual transportation. If you are a builder, well then you need a truck and you need to go to where your clients are.We really like our Prius. It's perfect for our family -- two average-framed adults (I'm 6'4" but only 180), and two kids ages 5 and 3. In a pinch we can put one of the boosters in the hatch-back and squeeze a third kid or a grandmother in the middle of the back. We recently put 3 kids in the back and took enough stuff to the cabin (less food) for 4 days. The hatch-back is surprisingly spacious.Some would say that we've sacrificed "power" or "comfort" for fuel economy. But it really depends on what makes you feel powerful and comfortable. I personally don't believe that my self-interest is always my best-interest. A sacrifice is only a sacrifice if you feel entitled to comfort in the first place. I'm not saying I don't want to be comfortable. I'm just not convinced that we're all entitled to it. I've been reading the Little House in the Prairie series to my 5 year old. Those folks didn't expect to be comfortable. They expected to work hard.Got to go. We're going to an "Art Car" parade today.
Good post. We're paying $3.50+ per gallon here, which could make that $5K add-on amortize fairly quickly. I'm waiting to see if the next model year includes a hybrid with some sort of cargo space so I can throw the 80-lb. dog in there. He won't ride unless his 36" diameter bed is in the car.
How much gas money does your 80 lb. passenger provide?
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
No gas money, but sometimes gas itself, so much that it's necessary to fumble for the electric window controls and open all of them at once.
We're paying $3.50+ per gallon here, which could make that $5K add-on amortize fairly quickly.
These days a Prius would set you back around $27K in my area. When you consider that a Toyota Echo will get 40MPG driven in the same manner and costs about $13K, the Pruis is hard to Justify.
But if you really want to feel special, a grown up sized VW Jetta Diesel can be had for about $23K and will return 40MPG reliably. And, the VW will do it in grown up comfort and with out all the gee-wiz stuff that is sure to need more upkeep.
Anyone who drives a Hybrid is certainly doing more for the environment and the economy than me and my full sized pickup. But from a financial standpoint alone? Hybrids are a losing bet.
Robert,
while The VW might return 40mpg according to consumers reports it lacks the same reliablity as a Toyota..
considering the cost of maintinance I wonder if the money you'd save at the pump might be spent at the service bay..
I know what Consumer reports says.
Based on my own experience with both........................ I'll take German (Yup, even German assembled in Mexico) over Japanese any time ( Yup, even Japanese assembled in the U.S.)
I make no bones about being a Ford guy even though I did just buy a Chevy truck.
But............................
VW Jetta..............................260K miles with only minor repair
VW Corrado........................140K miles with almost no repair or upkeep. Didn't even need to replace the Supercharger like some reports said.
Honda Civic............................Total junk by 90K miles and undriveable by 110K
Toyota tercel...........................90K miles and dead.
1968 M-B 250........................Still on original engine and trans. 300K miles.
Oh, and my Monster in laws VW golf assembled in Mexico. 10 years old. One battery. One belt. Thats it.
On top of that, factor in the cost of Toyota service. Which is typically twice the cost of VW or American around here. Parts too.
I was almost talked into buying a Toyota truck this last time. Then I rode with a guy from work across town in his and I remembered why I always avoided them. At 80K miles it felt like it was going to fall apart beneath us.
We paid $21.5K for our Prius. The $27K model has a lot of upgrades.If I had my way, we would have bought a Jetta TDI, but I wasn't the decider ;-)I didn't mean to judge the guy who speeds past me as a fuel waster. I mean to judge his impatience as counter productive. That being said, you're right. It's not place to judge him. Until he runs down one of my kids, it's not none of my business. I just try to remind myself to breath. Do unto others....
Yeah,
round here you would be hard pressed to find even a stripped hyundai accent let alone a stripped pruis. On top of that, I've noticed that in some places they are driven by th Frugal or Environmentally conscious. In other areas? By the self important yuppies trying to be "Green" because it's in. I'm betting no one I've seen driving one around here even concerns themselves with what the car costs or what gas costs.
As for patience? I used to think it came with age. But since I've been going to the City for work I see all kinds of allegedly grown men tailgating and weaving in and out of traffic. Maybe if we concentrated more on enforcing safe driving and less on speed we would be better off.
http://www.mrsharkey.com/rabbit.htm
this guys whole page/website is worth the read... all electric it appears is the cheapest per mile...
i spent way too much time read'n this guys site...
p
asinning,
Before you judge the guy who speeds past you as a fuel waster you should know that consumer reports did an article several years ago regarding driving the new fuel injected cars to obtain the best fuel mileage.. Surprisingly, brisk acceration is the best way to get good mileage!
You see if you slowly accerate you remain in lower gears longer and lower gears get worse mileage. Since Fuel injection doesn't have the accerator pump of old carburated engines you aren't pumping a bunch of unburned fuel into the engine in an attempt to get it to accerate..
Thus the guy who floors it at the lite is only trying to get good fuel economy strange as it seems. (all bets are off if he exceeds the speed limit as well)
but I'm realistic. It's basically a $16K car with a $5K add on
Round these parts it's a $16K car with $11K added on.
I think there is more to the hybrids than that.It was explained to me roughly as follows: Due to the nature of how the energy is "re-used" after it is "caught" during braking and other decelerating, not only going easy on the throttle, but also braking (i.e. city driving), saves gas. If you drive easy and are driving in stop and go situations it will take less gas than driving at highway speeds where many miles are driven without anything that charges the batteries. Basically, when you drive a hybrid on the highway, after the first few miles it's just a gasoline car. If you drive mostly in city stop and go traffic you might get 60 mpg.The ranchers that we buy beef from bought one since they drive about 70 miles one way for "city" activities. They were dissapointed. Their old Corolla got 34 mpg on the highway and the new Prius gets about 42 (for them). I'm not convinced that the price for a Prius is worth it.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
jon... my dad used to turn off the engine going downhill..
try that today Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The fuel injectors are turned off in both my Jetta TDI and Sprinter if you are coasting in gear above idle RPM.
nowadays, when you turn off the key, the steering locks .... saves gas ... butMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I guess the steering lock thing could be a problem.....
Or, just buy a Dodge Magnum with a Hemi like I did- it looks cool, gets you to your destination quickly, rides and handles like a sports car, and gets around 20 MPG on a good day.
Bob
Kid at work just got a big servicemens group life insurance Traumatic injury payment. If your injury prevents you from doing certain things for yourself for more than one month, you get a settlement.
Spent the whole thing on an 06 SRT-8 Magnum. Nice car but I'm not sure I could have coughed up 40 big ones for it.
Spent the whole thing on an 06 SRT-8 Magnum. Nice car but I'm not sure I could have coughed up 40 big ones for it.
You've obviously never gotten your foot into the pedal in that SRT-8 then...lol. If they had been available when I bought my RT, I probably would have spent the extra for the SRT-8- the company is paying for the car anyway, so why not, right? ;)
Of course, I would think if this guy was truly "traumatically injured", there may have been better uses for the money- but that's another issue entirely.
Bob
Of course, I would think if this guy was truly "traumatically injured", there may have been better uses for the money- but that's another issue entirely.
Lost 80% of his right thigh to an IED. 11 months later still pushing little chunks of metal to the surface. Huge scars and no feeling. Movement is fine but no feeling.
Spent 4 months unable to move from his bed. Thats why the payment.
You've obviously never gotten your foot into the pedal in that SRT-8 then...lol
I drove one and did get to stomp on. at $40k there are too many clean used Corvettes and 911's to be had for me to buy one. Of course, the next time I'm getting a 40K car is right around when some of these kids leave home and promise never to return.
Edited 7/19/2006 11:18 pm ET by robert
I bought a 2005 Chevy Colorado extended cab (6'-1" bed) with the Z71 off road package and 4 wheel drive in December 2004. It came with the Vortec 3500 Inline 5 cylinder engine, automatic transmission and the trailer tow package (4,000 lb rating). Modifications are: WeatherTech bugshield and window deflectors, GM rubber bed mat, Hi-Lift Slide-N-Lock Tie downs, and an Extang Full-tilt removeable soft tonneau cover.
Most of milage is highway, but there is a fair amount of around town driving thrown in. I keep as much unneeded stuff out of it as possible but there is usually at least 100 pounds of something in the back seat or bed and I average between 19.5 and 20.5 mpg on a tank of gas. The tonneau does seem to increase gas mileage a little. The best mileage I got was about 23 last summer on the highway (doing 70 in light traffic) from Northwest Indiana to Grand Haven, MI with two mountain bikes hanging off the back. You can watch the gas gauge drop the second you use 4 high.
I've heard of people with the standard Z85 suspension and two wheel drive getting close to 28-29 like was mentioned earlier about Rangers and Tacomas.
When I bought the truck, I was in a position where my car had just died and I didn't want to keep renting something when two weeks rent equalled a monthly payment. I knew I wanted a truck but didn't need the towing or payload capacity of a full size. So far, the Colorado has done everything that I've thrown at it.
As you know I am not a mileage vehical guy however.......the last vehical research project you did took over a 100 posts and you didn't buy anything. Just keep what you have and think of all the money you will save and buy gas with lol. DanT
I didnt buy any thing because the truck I wanted was like yours and 10 miles per gallon at a 30 grand sticker. I think fuel will get only higher .
Im debating on using the truck you saw for a tool truck and pull a trailer like Ive been doing . I collected 4500 hail damage and didnt fix it so it looks like it will get the boxes and racks. It gets 17 up from 10 on the older truck.
So what Im talking about now is cheap transportation for run around . I was gonna mention it again that IM not looking for a tool truck. Ive got a wrangler jeep but its a pain in cold and hot . A little pick up that got 40 to 50 to cruise properties would be cool. Im thinkin bout gettin really cheap. <G>
Tim
I heard that plans are afoot to market the SMART car in the U.S. It would seem ideal for running around doing basic commuting and chores that don't require hauling capacity - and safer than a motorcycle or scooter.
My concern is the return on investment, i.e., the time required for the gas savings to pay for the cost of the vehicle.
I thought about buying a small bike for running around, which would allow me to drive the V-8 Behemoth Hauler fewer miles each year, prolonging its life and reducing gallons per year.
However, when I ran the numbers, the only way it would be cost effective is if I were to replace the behemoth entirely, which would summarily eliminate my ability to haul; the payback-period to add a bike to the family worked out to about 7 years, if I recall correctly.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
About the only thing that gets close to 50 MPG and has some room is a VW Jetta TDI wagon. If you buy used, maintenance is critical. They are also in demand, so don't expect a deal- I could probably sell my 05 for just about what I paid for it.
I pulled out the back seat bottoms and there is plenty of room back there with the seat backs folded down.
There are others- Ford Festiva, Suzuki Sprint, Honda Civic... etc.
I had a 00 Ford Ranger with a 4 cyl, 5 speed manual, short bed stripper (radio and AC)- best I got was 23 on the highway, 19 consistently in mixed driving. The 03 Chevy Astro 2WD I had got 15/16 consistently in mixed driving (I hear the older non-Vortec engines actually get better mileage).
bicycle.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
From what MS said about leaving the trailer of tools on site .
And from what deisel said about everyone haviving access to the tools.
I figgured it up.
Put an insurance policy on the tools and trailer
Load the big truck with service tools and leave it on the job as its insured anyway.
I could ride a scooter to work if I wanted to and load it in the trailer if I moved.
Put the jeep in the garage for me to drive .
Thats the cheapest. I could look for houses all day for a few bucks .
Tim
You check out the Ford Focus wagon, Tim. 40mpg! Reasonable priced, too. Good review from Consumer Reports.
I've been thinking about something like this, too. (Probably 100,000,000 other folks, too!)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
I will right now thanks .
Tim
You made a mistake at least according to this :
2006 Ford Focus Wagon
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MSRP Price Range
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<!---->$16,735 - $17,495<!---->
Invoice Price Range
<!---->$15,564 - $16,256<!---->
MSN Ratings
ExpertNot Rated
User9.8
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Overall Test Score75 Read Snapshot
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Overview
Prices
Features & Specs
Photos
Reviews
Safety
Reliability
Overview
Introduction
The Focus Wagon is Ford’s compact wagon, also available in three other bodystyles: 3-door hatchback, 4-door sedan, and 5-door hatchback (See Focus). The Focus was introduced in 1998 in Europe and for the 2000 model year in the U.S.
New for 2006
All 2006 Ford Focus trim levels offer a standard AM/FM/CD/MP3 audio system. Six-disc audio systems now include steering wheel controls and new exterior colors choices include Dark Toreador Red Clearcoat Metallic, Pueblo Gold Clearcoat Metallic and Screaming Yellow Clearcoat.
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All versions of the Focus tested very well. It's agile, spacious, and fun to drive. It is also available in wagon and hatchback models. Overall crash protection is good. We recommend only the Focus with side air bags.
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Category ComparisonWhat's this?
This section shows how the Ford Focus Wagon stacks up against other vehicles in its category.
Select a trim (sorted by price):
Category for comparison:Wagons
Basic Results: (vs. wagons)
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Retail Price (MSRP): $16,735 (average: $28,259)
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Fuel Economy (City): 26 mpg. (average: 20.99 mpg.)
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Cargo Volume: 35.6 cu. ft. (average: 26.57 cu. ft.)
Standout Results: (vs. wagons)
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Powertrain Warranty: 60 months/100,000 miles (average: 51 months/53,415 miles)
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Total Cost of Ownership: $30,475 (average: $39,245)
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Front Legroom: 40.7 in. (average: 41.93 in.)
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Horsepower: 130 hp. (average: 209.63 hp.)
Somthing liks a mini van will get 26 wont it ? Or will it ?
Tim
I've been pricing used cars on cars.com and I go by the bugmint site for fuel economy. It's easy to use, but now I wonder how accurate it is. It was an owner I called on a used Focus that said 40 mpg, I guess it always depends on how you drive it. As an example, the site I checked said 35 mpg for an 05 Focus wagon with standard tranny.http://www.fueleconomy.gov/I've noticed that the fuel economy site lists the standard transmissions as the best fuel economy, but trying to find a Civic, Corolla, Focus, etc. that's not got an automatic is pretty tough.As to the minivan, DW drives a 99 Toyota Sienna. I bought it for $7500, it's been totally reliable and comfortable, and she gets about 21-22 mpg with it. We drove it out of state once and got only 23. We like it a lot.I've only ever bought three new vehicles in my life and I seriously doubt that I will ever buy another new one. IMO, cars are so much better in general than they used to be that a ten year old Toyota is likely to give better service than that new Galaxy 500 did back in the 60s.Please start another thread after you make your decision and drive the new rig for a bit. It's always good to hear how something works out.Best of luck!+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
And in Europe you would have just as much trouble or more finding an automatic. My daughter just moved back to the states. They sold one of their cars (VW mini-van, also sold as a Ford), and are keeping the other one so her husband will have it to use when he goes back 3 or 4 times a year for business. The VW was a TD and using the mpg, was about 40.
It was more along the size of the Mazda minivan.
john
We have a Prius. We get anywhere from 40 to 60 mpg depending on the temperature and the type of driving.
Anyway, about 6 months ago my wife ran into another Prius driver at Home Depot, a building contractor! He had rigged his Prius up with a hitch and a trailer. He was using it to haul building materials! He said "to hell with the warranty, I'm sick of putting money in the hands of big oil!"
For what it's worth.
Tim, this is gonna sound a little ridiculous but I've got a 95 honda civic hatchback that gets 35-40 mpg doing backroads driving. I don't think honda makes civic hatches anymore. Frankly, most of Honda's sedans get pretty bad mileage now. But their new Fit does get good mileage and is a hatchback.
I've been able to get most things into a hatchback. It don't go far with a heavy load in it, but a small benchtop saw like the bosch and some tools would fit nicely. Creatively you can get an 8 or 10' piece of lumber or pipe inside. You won't get a sheet of plywood or drywall in their though. Depends what you are haulin.
If you are mostly just driving around looking for houses you might look at a Fit or a toyota Yaris.
Tradesmen in the UK must drive some sort of small car/van (because of gas prices) that they can get their crap into - may take some looking to see if there's an american version.
"Tradesmen in the UK must drive some sort of small car/van (because of gas prices) that they can get their crap into - may take some looking to see if there's an american version."
Don't I wish there were an American version, at their prices!!!
My daughter's neighbor had a Kangoo (made by Renault). It was a diesel and they were all over the landscape. For example, the Mercedes version of the Sprinter could be had for in the neighborhood of 12-14K. According to the mason who did their concrete work. It was stripped, more like a pickup bed, no a/c and a standard. The Kangoo was 9 somethng. These are Euro dollars which at the time took about 1.25$ to buy one.
john
I look way too cool in my v-10 f-250 to try something more economical
mark
believe me , I can understand that .