Hello All,
I’ve read thru a ton of posts on the subject and its all very interesting. With the new house that has all galv piping I am going to be changing that out soon. I’ve decided to go with PEX. Most thoughts on this say buy whatever is local No one locally carries it that I can find so I will most likely be buying it online. ….I’m SOL on that count.
From former posts I see that people are using Wirsbo, Zurn, Veiga, Watts, Kitec 2, Vanguard and probalby a ton more.
I would love to hear peoples opinions on which system they think is the most widely used/available?
I would also love to hear opinions on whether or not PEX is going to supplant copper as the defacto standard for water supply piping. From previous posts its been in use in Europe for 40+ years with no problems. Does anyone have an idea if its the exact same product here?
To my way of thinking with copper prices being insane and the apparent ease of installing with pex how can it not supplant copper? Or is it going to be the next AL wiring fiasco?
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
My plumber, who I trust, used plastic when I asked him to reroute a line to an outside sillcock when I had a porch put on last year. He didn't ask, just did it. Seems to be a norm. When the mineralized galvanized pipes to my upstairs turn the shower anemic, I think that pex would be easier to snake than copper.
A few weeks ago, I ran across some plumbers at work on a house, here in North Central Texas. The house had PEX plumbing, but after seeing the brass manifold with all the tubing sections attached I first thought the owners were putting in floor radiant heat.
One of the plumbers said that for the past year, with copper prices and theft at an all time high, PEX was the only thing they were working with on new housing and copper pipes being killed and rerouted on problem leaks in older slab homes.
I'm somewhat concerned about the use of this softer material being attacked by house pests like mice, rats, and squirrels....any comments on this?
Bill
i think i was the second factory certified installer of wirsbo in this area... and i'm not even a plumber :) i don't see going back to copper... see no reason to... around here they are have'n a lot of problems with copper getting pin hole leaks... from? some say chemicals in the water some say it's not grounded ect... but they are pay'n 60k for a study to tell them why...
p
You can't find PEX locally? Go over to 28th and San Pablo and find Rubenstein Supply... they gotta have it. If that doesn't work, head a little farther north to either Cal Steam or Hydronic Specialties Corp. and buy it there. I know that PEX for potable water was not legal until somewhat recently so it was mostly used for heating, but AFAIK it is now getting installed for water around the Bay Area.
Hi David,
Well I usually go to Ashby Plumbing which is convienently located next to Asby Lumber where I get most of my wood and last time I was there they didn't have anything. Of course the big box stores are not carrying it around here.
Ha, Rubenstein is a block from my current house...and they carry the Vanguard system only...don't think I have heard as much about them as Wisbro.
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Try Ferguson. That's who I've been ordering my Wirsbo through on the Right Coast. Looks like there's an express counter in Alameda. Even if they don't stock it, they ought to be able to have it sent there for you to pick up.
1. Ferguson
15 Koch Road, Unit M
Corte Madera, CA 94925
phone: (415) 924-3200
fax: (415) 924-2201
Products: P
3. Ferguson
3095 3rd Street
San Francisco, CA 94107-3505
phone: (415) 401-1840
fax: (415) 648-4439
Products: P
4. Ferguson
2307 Blanding Avenue, Suite G
Alameda, CA 94501
phone: (510) 521-4750
fax: (510) 521-4753
Edited 4/26/2007 10:05 pm ET by FatRoman
i may be told off but here goes, I have already seen 2 or 3 or 4 kinds of plastic pipe come and go, The plumbers swear by plastic, why they made the same money doing plastic as copper with 20 percent of the cost, not sure about the pex but all other plastic had to be kept from sunlight, i did copper 25 years ago its still great even though i heard the plumbers party line that it will go bad, yes copper costs more now , i would put the best in my walls before i covered them up , pex may very well be the way to go but i heard that about all the other plastic pipes too. but maybe the plumbers cant even do copper anymore
There is UV resistant Pex for exposed applications.
Rodent damage is the only thing that bothers me.
I definately understand where you are coming from. That's why I asked if the PEX systems in use here are the same that have been used in Europe for the past 40 years with no problems? (so I'm told here on the list) if that's the case then using them here seems like a no brainer...maybe...
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
If the rats return you may have a problem with them chewing the soft PEX.
since when is PEX soft? You ever have a piece bounce and snap you in the nose?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In the future, instead of parents telling their kids to go cut a switch, they'll tell them to go cut a piece of PEX.http://grantlogan.net/
In the future, instead of parents telling their kids to go cut a switch, they'll tell them to go cut a piece of PEX.
Ha like parents spank their kids anymore...I'm just barely old enough to understand what you are talking about here...Can you picture your average yuppie mcmansion dweller meteing out real punishment to their spoiled kids?
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
>>>>>>>>Ha like parents spank their kids anymore.Mine didn't really physically punish me either. Just enough that I knew they could. But the psychological torture of having to go "cut a switch" or "go in the bathroom and wait for me to come spank you" was pretty darn effective. It's worked well on both of my kids. I've spanked them each once, so they knew I would do it. Then I never had to again.http://grantlogan.net/
Pex manufacturers are coming out with Roof panels!!!!I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
Bring it on.http://grantlogan.net/
Think that I am going to go out on a limb and draw two conclusions from all the answers that I've gotten.
It would seem that the general consensus here is that PEX is going to supplant copper as the standard for residential waterline plumbing and that there is not one system-product that stands above the rest. I really wish that there was as I don't want to be the early adopter with the betamax of plumbing systems...
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hi Daniel,Thanks for opening this can of worms -- I'm actually working the same question right now for my house.I asked my plumber what he would put in his house if he were re-doing the plumbing and he said unequivocally PEX. No two ways about it for him, it was the clear choice, hands down.After I drew up a replacement plan and materials list, I went about pricing copper vs. PEX. PEX won out with being a third or a fourth cheaper than copper. Copper has dropped in price since I did that, but the lead still goes to PEX. AND that included buying the specialty PEX tools.I think the fact that there are lot of fittings & pipe supplies is a *good* thing. As Mike pointed out, they are more or less interchangeable so long as you follow some reasonable rules that he also pointed out. Standardization is great in this case and leads to a) less expensive product and b) ability to find fittings 10 years later.I like the idea of using copper stub outs as that gets around any concern of exposing the PEX to UV light.I really don't think PEX is going to become the BETA of the plumbing world by any means.One advantage of home runs not already mentioned is that it's a *lot* easier to do repairs on the house without disturbing the rest of the residents. My old house had a home run system and that allowed me to shut down whichever fixture needed work / replacement while the rest of the house went about its business. Glen
If the rats return you may have a problem with them chewing the soft PEX.
Yea that's true. The PEX will be within the walls and we will hopefully get the rat access points all sealed up by then...we haven't caught a rat in a trap in a couple of weeks, guess we scared them off?
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
In the Chinese calender last year was the year of the rat, so you got about 12 years before they return.
Pex and rats...
Since this is Fine Homebuilding, aren't we building houses that are rat and mouse proof?
Pex tools are pricey...
$200 and I had all the tools I needed - the time savings on one job are enough to offset the cost.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
If I get to the point of building a fine home for myself it would be pex.
There are those who still feel the need to be able to tell there friends that there new house has all copper plumbing.
A critter proof house is a fine goal to aspire to, but it only happen occasionaly.
What kind of crimping tool do you use? I was in Fergusons here in Radford Va. last wek and the counter guy showed me a smaller crimper that is half the size of what I have and use now, he said that it is for the "new" stainless rings, plus the cost was about 18.00 smackaroos compared to the 100.00 I paid for the biggun.
I use Wirsbo with the expansion tool and pex rings. It was the first pex available at the local supply house. The son-in-law neigbor has a set of crimping tools I can borrow if I need to work on the type with crimp rings.
It already has replaced copper 85% of the jobs here - and not because of the price of copper. It saves so much labor and the home run manifold design makes for a better system.
Ten years ago, I had to practicly drag my plumber kicking and screaming into the 21st century by making him use it. Now he won't recommend copper anymore, except as repair and replacement on minor stuff
Wirsbo
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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"It saves so much labor and the home run manifold design makes for a better system."
We recently had a plumber replace a convoluted mix of copper, galvanized and pvc with PEX. He used a manifold to route home runs to the first-floor bathroom fixtures, the kitchen sink and the washing machine.
The washing machine is the furthest from the hot water tank, and in hindsight I think a single line with a T-fitting to the kitchen would have been better. The front-loading washer uses very little water, so even by the end of a "hot" wash cycle, the hot-water line is still delivering cold (or barely warm) water.
If the kitchen sink (which is nearby) had been branched off, we could pre-charge the hot-water line before using the washer.
Since there are no separate valves at the manifold, I see no advantage to the "home runs" to the laundry room, except maybe flow rate if we're washing dishes and clothes at the same time.
But it sure cost a lot more in materials -- it doubled the amount of PEX needed, and only saved two T fittings.
Oh, it also saved the plumber a trip down into the crawl space. He had me pull the PEX lines through and feed them up through the floor. And I had to clip them to the joists -- a pain in the arse because of heat ducts and wiring in the way. It would have been much easier to deal with only two PEX lines instead of four.
Anyway, eventually we'll be adding a laundry utility sink, with T's off the washing machine lines. That'll pretty much solve the problem I've been whining about.
Then I'll just worry about the mice in the crawlspace chewing through the PEX.
Allen
I don't know if vermin's teeth are an issue or not. Copper can taste pretty good to me and I haven't heard of them chewing it. They do chew the coatings on electrical wire, but that contains lead which is sweet.A big advantage of the home run system is maintaining flow. You don't get a loss in the shower when somebody flushes the tiolet
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just did a small job for a guy who is a rep for Viega, and he told me about a promo that they will be having in the next few months for a Viega crimping kit.It'll come with the 3/4 crimper, 1/2 crimper, tubing cutter and case for $99.00. Normal retail is closer to $450-500.These are the large meaty levrage crimpers. Apparently, they will only be selling 2007 of the kits within the special promo pricing.If you haven't already committed to a certain brand setup - might be a great way to get into Pex without the high cost of the special tools.You'll have to use their stainless sleeves, but their sleeves can be used with anyone's pex tubing and anyone's fittings.They've also got a cool aluminum sleeved version of the pex tubing that you can bend and it'll keep the shape - they have a special tube shaver that shaves off the aluminum at the end so that it can be crimped like standard pex.JT
Wow that's smart of them. If PEX is going mainstream and they get their tools into the hands of a lot of plumbers initially they could get a pretty big chunk of the market.
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hi Allen,
Do you think that the lack of valves at the manifold has something to do with your unhappiness at the situation? From what I've read the best set-up is a manifolded-homerun system with valves so you can control how much water goes where.
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Yes, you're correct about the valves, though I'm more concerned with a simple "on" or "off," rather than finely manipulating volume or flow rate. Seems to me one of the advantages of "homerunning" would be the capability of turning off each "applicance" right at the manifold.
Still, that wouldn't solve the hot-water-to-washing-machine problem. In my situation, the distance is so great that the wash cycle is done before hot water gets to the machine.
If the nearby kitchen sink had been T'ed off the same pex line, then I could open the sink faucet until hot water had filled the line.
That was my main point, in addition to the fact that it cost a lot more to run dedicated PEX lines to each fixture, and it was difficult finding enough "real estate" in the crawlspace to anchor all those lines.
All-in-all, though, I'm a fan of PEX after seeing how much quicker it installs. Well, I'm a fan until the rodents chew into it. Maybe my imagination, but I thought I heard something chewing in the crawl space moments ago!
Allen
I'm probably just needlessly spending your $$, but you CAN put "T"'s in PEX. You don't HAVE to do home runs.
And a recirculation setup would solve your hot water situation to the utility room. jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
John, the plumber suggested the homeruns. In hindsight, I would have preferred T-ing off a single hot-water line to the kitchen and laundry. Especially since he didn't install separate valves for each "home run."
Yeah, I've read about the recirculating hot water systems. Too complex for my brain.
When I have a T installed for a laundry sink, I'll be able to "pre-charge" the hot water line to the washing machine. Problem solved.
Thanks.
Allen
It already has replaced copper 85% of the jobs here - and not because of the price of copper. It saves so much labor and the home run manifold design makes for a better system.
That's pretty much my feelings exactly, but of course I am not a pro so my feelings don't really count.
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Wirsbo
Wirsbo (Uponor) isn't DIY friendly (the company, not the PEX).
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
"Go with what's local" works -- sorta. I can get lots of PEX tubing locally. What's scarce is the fittings. So I e-order a lot of that. If you're going to be buying on line, I like Wirsbo. Unless you're doing a hotel or something, the manual expander is fine, fast and fits in tight spaces. Works like a charm and you have a bit of fudge factor built in since you can spin the fittings for a while after installing them. And, even if you do go with PEX, you'll still need (or at least want) a bit of copper. Personally, I stub out with copper -- I hate the look of plastic stub-outs and valves, so maybe it's just a personal preference thing. You'll also need copper near the HW heater. So, don't throw out the torch just yet. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
You'll also need copper near the HW heater.
Is that because of the heat, or fire issues, or what?
"You'll also need copper near the HW heater.Is that because of the heat, or fire issues, or what?"
Heat. PEX requires 18" (IIRC) metal connectors to a HW heater. PEX gets soft is it's too warm.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Plastic pipe softens with heat. The rule on my on-demand water heater was 3' of copper before transitioning to PEX, but it was convenient for me to use 2' of copper, then PEX, so that's what i did with no softening problems at all with the Aquastar on the highest setting.
I had questions about using PEX...
Would you buy the crimping tool that is designed to crimp 2 or 3 different sizes or buy a crimper that is for one size? I believe I saw one of the multi jaw crimpers at Lowe's for about $100...
Would you use 1/2" PEX as a way to run air hose through the attic for several drops for the workshop? The compressor's max air pressure is 125lbs.
Thanks,
Bill
I called Wirsbro and checked on this also because I wanted to run an air line to basement from garage. I was told that the trace amount oil that is in the air line from the compressor will eventually degrade the pex so it is not recommended for a permanent install.What I did do though was buy a roll (500 ft.) of the polyethylene tubing used for air tools ($80) , 3/8" o.d. and snaked it through my existing conduit that leads from the garage to house for the cable and phone line. Then I just ran it through the basement stapling it to the joists. I have to finish where I plan on having the outlets, where I plan to put a ball valve and filter.I know for such a long run of 3/8" tubing (over 100 ft.) there is concern for a pressure drop but if there is noticeable one, I will install my old compressor tank in the basement as a "fill tank" (i'll probably do this anyway to keep the garage compressor from running too much).Anyway I figure this poly tubing was the cheapest way to go for now and although technically (I think) the oil may degrade this as well, it is cheap enough to cut out and put in some new. Maybe someday I'll put in aluminum tubing made for this.Good luck.
Alan
Alan,
Thanks for the reply and insight. I hadn't thought of compressor lube oil as being a problem! When I do my compressed air lines, I'm running a Sears' vertical "oil less" direct drive compressor which might solve the reaction between the two. It will be off in a material storage room as I'm sure you know how noisy that kind of compressor can be.... I've found some 3/4" copper tubing at a garage sale, so to help keep moisture down in the tank, I'll put it just outside the air tank and spiral it up four or five feet to let the moisture drain back into the tank. I know when someone comes in a see it, they'll swear I'm running an old Moonshine still...
Also, a few years back, from when General Dynamics sold to Lockheed/Martin, for $50 I bought a brand new huge air filter. It was labeled from their "FLIR" development program. It's about 2ft. long, 4" diameter blue barrel and anodized gold blocks on the end and has a huge replaceable filter element. Any impurities and moisture should have quite a battle making it passed all that copper and government spec. filtering...LOL.
Bill
Well just to beat this dead horse further I called around to a couple of the bigger pro plumbing supply stores in my area. They both carry Vanguard tubing and fittings. For what its worth I asked them if they have been selling a lot of them. Both places said that they have noticed that its picked up a lot.
Just for fun I asked them if they carried tankless water heaters and how they were selling. Both places carried a selection of gas units and both places said that sales of the tankless units have increased significantly.
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Copper keeps going up. Home depot or Lowes carry ZURN fittings and tubing. Good luck. By the way your'e a scientist and you can't figure this out? Guess we know the world order as it relates to builders and the science world.
Copper keeps going up. Home depot or Lowes carry ZURN fittings and tubing. Good luck. By the way your'e a scientist and you can't figure this out? Guess we know the world order as it relates to builders and the science world.
I'm not really asking anyone to figure anything out for me I just wanted to take a poll and see what the pro's on here felt about PEX becoming the standard for residential.
From the replies I've gotten it seems like it is going to go mainstream in the U.S. though it does not appear to be popular yet here in CA.
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I've been using poly pipe since PB pipe in the mid-80's. A lot of the bad rep poly gets is from bad installation, non-straight crimping or too-tight bends. Even the PB pipe i put in when i was a rank beginner, now outlawed in the US, is still perfoming flawlessly 22 years later, compared to a lot of frozen/split copper pipe my neighbors have replaced.
Where i am now, all the houses on well water have to have a water softener or the copper stains all the fixtures green. I used PEX - no troubles. And i've had mice, but i thoughtfully provided them a couple sacks of grass seed to chew on instead.
One of the things i found personally is that i prefer working with 20' sticks of PEX compared to rolls of tubing. I just don't like fighting the curl in it, esp when i'm working alone threading it through a slew of joists.
"And i've had mice, but i thoughtfully provided them a couple sacks of grass seed to chew on instead."You're such a sweet hearted thang. My mive were reading that, looked over their shoulders at the cats and started packing their bags. They wanted to know your phone # so they can call for a ride when the bus gets into town
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOL, what a mess that was! Four bags of pasture seed stacked on top of each other, which kept getting shorter and shorter from the mice-mining operation they had going after my old cat, aka Lethal Weapon, went blind.I adopted four more cats, feral rescues from a barn that burned down last year. Your sea-level mice would need altitude training in order to get away now!
"Most thoughts on this say buy whatever is local No one locally carries it that I can find "
Madscientist,
Chances are you won't find it locally, because the California Plumbing code doesn't allow it here. There are only two ways to get around this that I know of, one is using the alternate materials section in the code and the other is the soil or geologic conditions waiver. Both require the approval of the local AHJ. The large tract builders have been using these exemptions to get around using copper for several years now.
Another thing you might want to consider is that in the next code adoption cycle, the material that finally won out, was CPVC, not PEX. So it will be a number of years in my opinion before you start seeing PEX stocked at your local Home Depot or Lowes.
Panic Mechanic is correct I believe. Five years ago I asked the building Dept. about pex for domestic and they had no idea what I was talking about.
Supposedly another way to get around the code is to have it approved as a test or experimental system in your area.
I would definitely talk to the city before going any further
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
The DNA for PEX started in 1933 in an explosion at the ICI labs in <!----><!----><!---->England<!----><!---->. Silly people were trying to compress ethylene gas under extremely high pressures...when the dust settled, 7 grams of wax like substance sat there begging for someone to play with it...well over 300 million feet of the stuff gets installed in America each year. Read the rest of the fascinating history in an upcoming issue of HPAC Canada.<!----><!----><!---->
After all I've read about experiences and the possible pest problem, I have a freezing question.
Will the "Cross-link" material survive freezing or will it split like copper and metal pipes?
Bill
One of it's strengths is that it will survive repeated freezing.
Unless it is buried in concrete.
Thanks, Rich.
Bill
One question that hasn't been raised is whether fittings from one manufacturer will work with the pex tubing made by somebody else?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You can mix & match fittings with tubing from another mfgr., but you can't mix fasteners & connecting methods. E.g., you can't use Wirsbo expander & PEX rings with a fitting designed for metal rings.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
not true.it CAN, as in it MIGHT... but, it is not freeze proof. It is "freeze resistant", but pex can and will burst under the right conditions.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Agreed, but I'll put my money on pex over copper.
But it is pretty amazing seeing broken concrete due to frozen pex.
And it takes less than 15 minutes for water to freeze when the slab is at -20.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Any kind of plastic (supply or DWV) is against code in San Francisco; although I believe it may be OK in single-story structures. This is supposedly due to toxicity when burned, but I think the Plumber's Union might have helped to prevent it's adoption.For now, at least, copper is alive and thriving in SF.Bill
I was thinking this morning of the PEX VS. copper issue and I realized that it really does not matter what the independant house builder/ remodeler uses. What will decide this issue is if the BIG home builders switch over. If someone like a Lennar switches to PEX that would make people sit up and take notice.
That said I don't suppose if any of you know if any of the big house builders are using PEX over copper?
thanks,
Daniel Neuman
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
That is one of its great strengths and why out plumbers are favoring it. We have a lot of big homes that get shut down come winter and lines drained, but old homes that have settled some don't always drain right.PEX has a lot more room to swell before bursting if some water gets left behind. Add to that, the elbows and joints in copper are where the failure happens first. PEX has none of that hidden in the walls.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!