Two story frame house, contractor took out 12′ of load bearing wall running down the center of the house on the first floor, replaced it with 2 – 2×12’s with 1/2″ plywood sandwiched between them. Above this beam the second floor is 12′ to one outside wall and 10′ to the other. Then there is another center wall with the attic floor above that. Attic floor is 2×6’s, unfinished. Is this beam sufficient to carry this load? I hope this is enough information.
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Feel a little bouncy does it?
I'd have used 2 LVLs that size or three 2x12 but I don't think you will see a disaster, just a bit of sagging over time.
The unknown variable is that you do not say whether the roof also loads down to this or just the upper ceiling, and if the attic floor joists are for floor storage or only holding the ceiling.
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It sounds like he has a non-bearing partition above the new beam, and attic joists above that. The beam sounds seriously undersized to me, but I work for people who spec a lot of glulam, LVL, and parallam stuff, very rarely sawn lumber beams.
Here's my current nightmare..
three full 2x10's rotted away at the corners.
I had an Eng. come out..he specced a 12"W40..I am spanning 24' MOL. I cant FIT a 12'+1.5" plate in the existing beam space. So he allowd an 8"W40 with a 2" build up plate.
This job is a killer..see the terra cotta corner? YIKES!
View Image
I have all the parapet off as of now, jacking up the cement cieling inside, and tryingto get the old beam out..lots of temp walls inside, and cussing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Yoikes is right!
Are you removing the two center columns? If they are structural, then no need for that much beam since it becomes three short spans.
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The centers are getting R&R'ed and they are not , nor will be structural. There is no footer uner them, just the corners. HO didn't want to tear up the fancy tile floor and brick in order to get a footer in under them.
The new corners are rebar-ed and filled cores. That pic was a ways back the other corner is up now, and I am lightenng the structure by getting up the old decking ( rotted from leaking built up roof and gravel, and failed perimeter gutter) and parapet wall framing ( all chestnut and cypress). EVERY THING gets heat gun stripped and repaired, reprimed and painted. Copper flat seam roof/deck.
Been there since 1915, probly leaking since the '60's or so, the beam ends and fas side beam, totally missing. A miracle it stayed up this long.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
there is no roof load transfering to this beam.
The attic is planked and empty now, but is about 10' tall in the middle. Certainly a lot of storage capacity, maybe even finished space in the future.
If it is good lumber and good posts and the posts have been positioned to take the load down to a solid foundation, then my gut says your probably OK.
I think LVLs wouda been a better choice, mostly for the no shrinkage benifit.
It does transfer down to a good foundation on one side and the basement center beam and post in the basement.
I would guess no.
edit: What is the species of the header material? Doug Fir, Hem fir, spruce or pine?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/29/2008 7:47 pm by Jim_Allen
I don't know the species of wood. The deal is this is a good friend's house. My friend knows zero about construction. They hired a contractor to do all this work and I was invited over just to see the work in progress. I didn't want to start spouting off about how the beam that his contractor put in may not be sufficient, since I don't really know what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to decide if it is bad enough that I should give my un-asked for opinion or just let sleeping dogs lie because it's not a big problem.
I'd let the sleeping dog lie. If the beam suddenly decides to fail it will just sag condiderably...probably. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It will sag over time, not suddenly nor catastrphicly
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Unless it's dryrotted.I have seen them snap in half like a tootpick on a dock. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
OK, but this is newly done work. If the guy used rotten lumber he is really a piece of work!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
True. I agree.I was on the dock when the lumber exploded and dropped six of us into the water. I was shocked and somewhat embarrassed because I had built the dock out of used treated 2x6's that were laying around the house when I bought it. I altered my design on the rest of the dockage LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I bet if an Eng is consulted, steel is the recomendation and proper bearing points.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
I'm not a big fan of steel/wood hybrid structural supports.
Wood shrinks, steel don't.
Just my .02The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
I agree David... seen a lot of humped floors because of the steel/wood marriage and poorly set flush framing.
On the original topic... I wouldn't say the beam is grossly undersized, but I would say it's pushing things a bit. A pair of 11 7/8" or even 14" LVL's probably would have been a smarter choice.View Image
I agree David... seen a lot of humped floors because of the steel/wood marriage and poorly set flush framing.
Yea, usually right at the top of the stairs <g>.
I freaking LOVE engineered lumber!
So why do I despise trusses?The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Yeah I'm not a truss guy either... just not my thing. Cutting roofs is probably my favorite part of framing.View Image
It's certainly the most challenging. I've seen your posts; you musta had a great teacher.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Self taught David..... books, the internet, and the gang here were my teachers.View Image
Then let me re-phrase. You're a helluva student.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
"I'm not a truss guy either... Cutting roofs is probably my favorite part of framing."
You know, I used to like you...
(-:
I had to give up sunbathing on the beach - People from Greenpeace kept coming by and trying to push me back in the water.
Me either, but I hadda CMA, the OP ( or his relation) can do anything..I HAD to get an Eng., My liabilty stops at 1 million.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
I'll take that bet.12 foot can easily be spanned with wood products. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's a safe bet for me, he won't invite an engineer to see it. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
I did a very similar job a few years back. We spanned 12' with 4 2x12's (boy was that fun setting). Following the load path to the foundation we used 2 2x6's on either side.
You dont even get near minimal requirements with what you describe.
Worrying about the size of the beam is secondary, as now there is a point load being carried by something it probably wasn't designed to do. Putting a second story load... easily 6+ tons in the center of a first floor load to the basement will result in other beams that were properly sized to be now overloaded and fail.
Putting a point load between floor joists, only being carried by 3/4" plywood sub floor is gauranteed to be a disaster.
Edited 4/29/2008 9:15 pm ET by sledgehammer
I think you got some pretty good answers above, but just to supply a little data here is a actual girder span table.
If you look at the left for "Roof, Ceiling, and One Center-Bearing Floor" and then find 2-2x12s and follow the row over to the right the largest number you see is around 9'. The columns are kinda messed up, but if you know the type of lumber used you can find the exact max span. Of course this table is for a relatively light live load (20 PSF) (I guess that is light??? we haven't seen snow here in 2 years here...) and obviously it is from a code that is not Chicago's...
Edited 4/30/2008 8:38 am ET by Matt
I get "Unable to load file" when I click on that link...
A President's hardest task is not to do what is right but to know what is right [Lyndon B. Johnson]
???? works OK for me...
I get "unable to load file" also.
Are you on a Mac? :-)
Can anyone else read it?
Again - works OK for me...
Edited 5/1/2008 7:37 pm ET by Matt
No, it don't work here..
But I didn't click on it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Hu????
Trying to conserve on index finger movements?
Just jumping on the "it don't work wagon" with the rest.
I'm old fashioned and have a book, "Simplified Engineering for Architects and Builders" has the same tables.
My steel is coming Wed. for the place I posted a pic of. Now trying to figgure out how to get it in the old beams place.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Let me try this...
I tried to C/P that..got booted..oh well.
Thats why some can't get it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
C/P ?
edit:
C/P = Oh... copy and paste??? Why would you want to do that? Are you trying to copy the link? Just left click on it to open the document. Or, you could right click on it and choose "open in new window". Now I understand why above said that you couldn't open it but I didn't click on it. (or something similar) This is all very strange to me. I tried clicking on both links from my laptop and it worked fine there too. What browser are you using? What operating system are you using?
BTW - when you say "got booted" what does that mean? You got an error message? The window blew off your screen? Your computer rebooted? Wife made you sleep with the dog? Boss doesn't like you anymore?... :-) The bouncer made you leave during the middle of the bachelor party? BTW - I got booted from my own bachelor party...
Edited 5/3/2008 7:43 am ET by Matt
WINXP - PRO IE6
I think it was such a large file it just kinda stalled the download in flight for me.
And everything else was me just messing with your head (G).
Sorry, Rez told me to do it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
So - did you get it to open or what?
I figured you were on dialup, but it's been so long since I had dialup - maybe years, I guess can't imagine the pain.... Do you consider 130k a very large file? That is the same op sys and browser I use. What - do you have an older modem? Either way I bet there are some techno-geeks here who could help modem users have things run more copacetic. Maybe start a thread in the forum help thread? Downloads in background, etc...
Just to give you a view of the other side I consider 4 or 5,000k a large file... takes at least a minute or 2 to load... I don't see how you guys cope. I tend to forget what I was doing in something takes more than maybe 30 seconds... :-) I don't think I'm alone... There have been studies done on this kind of thing... probably lots of them... Maybe that why some guys don't use spell check?
I'm on satelite, and a wireless router that is topped out at 56.o Mbps, my sat is faster but the router is the weak link.
And I have no friggin clue what a Mbps is..LOL
If I lose Sat due to weather ( of which is likely right now) I CAN go back to Dial up w/AOL hell and I think it is something like 19 Kbps or whatever is slower than molassassesasss in the freezer ( watch that get censored).
Sorry If I got ya excited, I REALLY was just messing with ya, and it went sour..I got the , what were we talking about? just fine..
Now, get yer butt up here and help me get this roof/portico.porch do dad jacked up so I can get that old beam out and plunk in a 20 odd foot hunk o steel..
seriously, I DO need some jacking advice, it all has a stucco on lath cieling with a radius transition to the wall crown mould..oh, wait..you don't do remodelling, restoratins..yer a new build kinda guy..right?
Trying to get a long time buddy to pipe in here, he'll be Speedsquare or something as a handle, he's down there in NC, Franklin to be exact..he's having issues being as he's on a MAC w/Safari..I can't help him from here.anyway, he's a vetern builder maybe looking for work..how far are you away again?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Got it, thanks. Very helpful chart. As near as I can guess, my beam is almost 2x the acceptable span for what it is carrying.
no mac, I'm running windows xp. Can you tell me how to do a google search for it? Maybe i can get to it that way.
I dont know about your market, but in PA we use the IRC code.
In the IRC code book there is a table for center headers and beams in several depths of homes and depends upon what you are supporting.
I was looking at the span tables yesterday and remember seeing that you would need 4@ 2x12 to meet minimum code for a 24' deep center bearing house where you are supporting 2 floors (attic and 2nd floor I would use as a standard)
If you can get a hold of an IRC book, you can have the puddin proof on what is acceptable by a standardized code. To deviate, I go to an engineer.
Hi there from NC everyone. This is my first post, I am new here. Here's my two cents worth: If I understand this correctly, Rich, the new girder (beam) is supporting the second story floor joists and there is a framed wall directly above this girder that supports the second story 2X6 ceiling joists (attic floor). If this is the case, then the new girder would seem to be undersized or at best marginal, and to qualify as marginal it would depend on how it was constructed. If the 1/2" plywood strip had a liberal application of an appropriate adhesive on both sides and if the 2X12s were top quality (for exp. knot free yellow pine) and if all was fastened with a tight double X nail pattern using full three and a half inch nails then it may be trouble free. Of course this will depend mostly on the actual second story floor load bearing on the girder. Proper techniques in constructing a girder unitizes it and increases its strength.
YO! Ya made it!
Welcome aboard.
Someone or I will get ya a link to the Tavern Access thread that is floating around here somewhere...gotta run right now, supper and the derby is starting in a minute.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
click THIS and say "Let me in PLEASE"
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=88325.418
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?
Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.