Hello all,
I have an interesting question regarding electrical methodology.
My sister just bought her first house. I has a modern, up to date, 100A GE breaker panel/load center in it. The original 100A main breaker appears to have had conductors attached to it at one point, since the screws are all buggered and there is anti-corrosive compound on them. The feed conductors, however, are actually coming into a 2-pole ganged 100A breaker, not the main breaker.
Not sure why, maybe a cheap work around for replacing a bad main, but the real question is, does this method meet code? Is it legal?
BTW, the home is in CT. if that matters.
thanks,
Jeff
Replies
If it's not legal it would be because the breaker and/or panel aren't "listed" for this configuration. Other than that (and the usual danger of assorted fine print in the NEC), it seems like it should meet code.
I think that 100amps is too small, sorry, but you will have to get an electrican to check out the system.
Why do you think 100A is too small? Statement was made that that's the rating of the panel.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>>I think that 100amps is too small
Depends on the size of the house and the loads - e.g. electric heat or carbon fuel? Etc.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I'll reply to you and DanH and anyone else that replied to my post. In the old days you were lucky to have a 60amp service, in the 60's they started to upgrade to 100amp services due to the higher load on the system. We are now in 2007, the load or [Potential] load can quickly outrun your system. Since I recomended a pro. to address the questions about his system I hoped that he would get it upgraded if he called a pro. Guess I didn't clarify my point, sorry.
Tiny nit: based on my experience, they started installing 100 A systes in the 50's.And yes, we use a lot more amperage than we used to, but there are still plenty of older/smaller homes where 100A is sufficient, IMO.In my area, the heaviest electric load in many homes is a central A/C - typically 1 1/2 - 2 tons in those older, smaller homes (say, around 1,500 sq ft).Heat, hot water, cooking and clothes drying is with nat gasSuch a home can easily do with 100 amps.Consider the example of a house with 1,800 square feet of finished living space and space adaptable for future use: two small-appliance circuits (3,000 watts), a laundry circuit (1,500 watts), a dishwasher (1,500 watts), a garbage disposal (600 watts), and a central air conditioner (5,000 watts). [Nat gas for furnace, stove, water heater, dryer]Such a house only needs about 48 Amps
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
The original main breaker is not used, It's just sitting there?
The mains are now feeding a regular 2 pole circuit breaker, IOW, a CB in a slot that would normally feed a load circuit?
IMHO, that's not legal.
SamT
Like I said, not clear why it isn't legal, unless there's fine print in the "listing" for the breaker and/or panel. For the most part (ignoring special motor units, etc), a breaker is a breaker, and it doesn't care whether the juice is coming or going. And if the panel is rated to accept a 100 breaker, the bus connections are sufficient.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
" breaker is a breaker, and it doesn't care whether the juice is coming or going. "But the code does.It require that backfeed breakers have hold down device on them.I have seen a couple of 100 amp panels without any main breaker.You can use them as subs or intall a 100 amp breaker with a hold down and us that as the main.The reason for the hold down is that if a breaker used as a main comes loose when removing the cover the "fingers" that clip on the bus are hot..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yeah, I can see that point.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>>It require that backfeed breakers have hold down device on them.Whazza "hold down device?"
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
Check out the 2005 NEC, Article408.36F. " {F} Back-Fed Devices. Plug -in-type overcurrent protection devices or plug-in type main lug assemblies that are backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel."These are available from the panel and breaker manufacturer. I can remember one brand that the "additional fastener" consisted of a screw threaded between the the poles of the two pole breaker into the back of the metal panel "can"Chuck
> Whazza "hold down device?"Those are the handcuffs she uses before she spanks you.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The Cutler Hammer that I am familar with (don't remember if it is CH or BR series) has a screw with large washer on it.Also the 100 amp breaker is larger than the standard branch circuit ones and thus you have any breaker on the other side of the bus at that position..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank you... I used to apprentice for a res electrician, but as I've not done that for a few years, I wasn't sure of the details. All of the information/opinions/expertise is greatly appreciated from the many fine minds on this forum. I'm of the opinion that this small Cape is well suited with 100A. Actually glad to see that it's a breaker panel rather than a fuse panel, which is what I was used to seeing when I was working in older homes. I'm also inclined to think that someone recycled a panel. It's quite possible that the screws were so buggered, that the installer didn't even bother with them and went right to the back-fed method. I'll certainly check for a securing strap/retention device. Thanks BH!and again, thank you all for the info.
Jeff
> I have seen a couple of 100 amp panels without any main breaker.
That kind of panel is quite common out here. We have one, so does our daughters' house. Maybe 1980's onward, older places tend to have dedicated mains.
-- J.S.
Based on the description, there is nothing overtly "wrong"
But one can wonder why it was done this way.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
"Based on the description, there is nothing overtly 'wrong'"If you found this in the box of a house you were inspecting, what would your comment be??
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The main concern I would have is the condition of the "abandoned" main breaker.I see 1/2 dozen boxes a year "back fed" (I don't know if electricians use that term - heard it at an ASHI seminar)and so far as I know, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.When I see "non-conventional" techniques, I tend to look a bit closer at the details, but that one detail by itself just gets mentioned in the description portion of the report.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
Yeah, it's legal; my breaker panel has no main and is wired up exactly that way. Whether it's a good idea or not is a different matter.
What I would do is replace the unused 100 amp main breakers with new and hook up the mains to the new lines. If I needed the circuits, I would replace the existing 100 amp breakers with whatever I needed there. If I didn't need the circuits, I would cut the breakers off and leave them in the panel.
It sounds like the past owners didn't want to pay the materials and labor for a new breaker box.
To replace the "Main Breaker" costs almost as much as a new panel sold with a main breaker, so they just left in place to plug up the hole in the breaker box's faceplate that would have been left if they removed it...
What they did is buy a standard 100 amp breaker and used it to connect to the existing buss bars. It takes up 2 spaces on the breaker slots, but it does qualify if you mark and label it as your "Main".
If the breaker box was full, I'll bet you'll find those "Skinny" thin breakers that allow more circuits when space is at a preminum. You might check to see if the total amps marked on the breakers exceed the old breaker box's rating. If it does, I'd be concerned.
Bill
On many, if not most, residential panels the total of the individual breakers is more than the panel is rated for. That is nomral on OK.Need to run a load calculation to see if the service and panel is big enough.Also need to check and see if the panel is rated for that number of tandems..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.