I was looking at Boss Hog’s spec house in the gallery. In response to a comment he said, “Most every one nearby has the cheapest of everything – vinyl windows, hollow core doors, painted trim, etc.”
I’ve noticed that natural wood trim such as window casings, base and especially crown molding seem to be a statement of quality in the midwest and east. Natural wood trim is not often seen in California (except in spectacular old Craftsmen houses) and I would definitely say that no one I know considers it a sign of quality. My brother moved from LA to the Philadelphia area. As they fixed up the house one of the first things they did was paint the natural wood trim. The neighbors were horrified.
This is not an attack on Boss Hog or his house, merely a comment on what appears to be a regional difference.
Replies
Interesting point.
Don't know if it's regional or personal. I always figured paint would cover up just about anything, while stained wood trim shows defects more easily. Painting perfectly good wood just seems to be un-american or something.
I'm anxious to hear what everyone else here has to say about it.......
This is the time of year when there are a lot of commencement speeche in the air. And there's a lot of air in the commencement speeches
Here in LA, natural wood anywhere on the outside of a building is usually a sign of termites. ;-)
Older residential builidngs, say up to the mid 1950's thru 1960's very approximately, usually have wood windows and doors, and usually they're painted. Window sills really are a natural place for termites to land and bore in. If they don't have wood windows, early buildings will have steel casements. As you move forward from that time frame, you find first more aluminum frame windows, and later more plastic. The vast majority are stucco over wood frame. Brick pretty much went away after the 1933 earthquake.
-- J.S.
Boss: Amen and Amen.
Of course may be just a regional thing, (I grew up just up the road from you- Springfield in 40's/50's). Childhood education was that anybody who paints any wood other than outdoor siding is a pervert who can't do worthwhile carpentry. <G>
It could have something to do with the perception of paint grade trim work vs. stain grade...etc. The theory being that even a modestly skilled trim carpenter can do the level of work required to be caulked and painted.....where as it takes more skill and therefore money to do trim work that can stand alone without the aid of caulk and paint to hide some mistakes and imperfections.
Like I said this is a perception, although one with some level of truth behind it.
That's my $0.02
SJ
My OPINION (we all know what that means) on someone coming in to "fix up a house" and painting over natural wood (assuming it's been stained and finished) is...
That person or persons is poorly educated in either interior design or what the value is of what they're painting over. (Please excuse my Midwest use of sentences ending in a preposition.)
Such a person or persons are not "fixing up" a house, they are reducing it's value. No wonder the neighbors were shocked. They are degrading the neighborhood.
There are times and places for painted trim. Such times and places call for different material. When the wife calls for such action (believe me, I've been there), it's time to call in a talented interior designer that can effectively communicate with her.
Interesting, around here about the only place you'll see stained exterior trim is on recreation homes (cottages, challets, etc.) and maybe a handful of "arty" homes around the city. It has exactly the reverse connotation than your scenario..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Upon reviewing the original post, I'm sure he's referring to interior trim.
However, your point regarding such exterior trim has merit.
I'm not a carpenter. I do trim work on my own house but I like wood working and the general look of natural wood finely installed. I wish I had the skills. Maybe with time.
It is not uncommon for houses over $1,000,000. to have the cheapest possible grade of mouldings installed with all the precision that an ax can provide. Listening to a recent trim crew I hear phrases of a certain type. Joints that would get me kicked out of junior high school wood shop are decried as taking too long and slowing down the job. These were the 3 most often overheard:
"Son your not building a piano." "Caulk will cover that." "Can't see it from my house."
Seems many just get it to within 3/16" and caulk the gap. Revolting. When you do find an old timer making tight joins they are often in trashy wood and are painted over even when good wood is used. I think that wood is naturally beautiful and even some of the finger joined molding, when sanded and stained, looks far better than painted wood.
Speaking as a DITer and as a "gurl"...
Can't I just prefer painted trim because I happen to find it visually pleasing? I understand that it is the far cheaper choice compared to beautifully done hardwood trim, but I don't like it because it's cheaper. When I did the molding in my dining room myself last year, I used paint grade and painted it white because that was the effect I wanted. And secondarily, because I don't have the money or skills to do hardwood and stain myself. And there aren't any disgusting errors covered with caulk either. I love beautifully worked wood, in furniture and artwork, cabinetry, and in trim in some architectural styles. But in my current Cape Cod house, I like my white trim. I didn't choose it to cover something else.
After ten years of life in Ohio, I still haven't adjusted to the regional taste for oak trim everywhere. I just prefer other hardwoods to oak. I learned later how much the "Amish" look had to do with what people chose for their interiors. As far as exterior trim, I'll listen and learn.
I always find it interesting to learn, from this forum, how something that I thought was just an aesthetic choice, frequently has a lot more to do with other factors, technical, economic, historical, etc. Fascinating.You can choose to be part of the solution, or part of the problem. Or like me, you can be an overachiever, and do both.
I hope it wasn't me that pee'd you off, Theo, with my comment about the wife.
But these other posters and what they say about the methods of installation pretty much sums thing up for me. When I see a house with stained interior wood (even pine - ugh), I know that real skill was involved in its installation. I know the trims had to cope those inside miters. I can see how much effort the painter had to go through in order to match the stain colors and fill the nail holes. And when I look close at that fine oak moulding and see that it is quartersawn furniture grade that took someone hours of his (or her) life sorting through the bins at the warehouse just to fine the perfect sticks, my knees get weak.
When I see painted trim, I don't feel those emotions. Not to mention the warmth the stained wood also offers.
But as I said earlier, sometimes there are times and places for painted trim. Since the kitchen remodel required painted cabinetry (the Queen's orders), the trim also had to be painted for the best appearances. Even in that case, it was still oak. Although heavily sealed, then primed to fill the pores. You see, oak doesn't dent when one knocks up against it.
However, I may try something different soon. I'm moving to Denver and the house there has natural cherry cabinetry. The hardwood floors appear to be a mix of oak and cherry. The trim and interior doors are natural poly'ed pine. I'm thinking of pulling the pine trim and replacing with some custom cherry. If I can get 6 panel cherry doors to match. Anyone got experience with such creatures?
Another amen.
Visited an Atlanta new $2 mil house of a former sports in-law a few years ago and was appaled at the workmanship - painted over router burrs in plain evidence on nearly every hinge cutout, etc.
These people must have had no 'upbringin' ???
> ...when sanded and stained, looks far better ....
I've never cared for the dull stained look on interior trim. Give me shellac or varnish.
-- J.S.
Theodora.
I agree that paint is an aesthetic choice. But unpainted moldings need not be expensive or even hardwoods. Many of the "paint grade" and other common softwood moldings look fine if finished and installed properly. I would not condemn you for painting molding, it is your house, but even then sloppy workmanship can seriously mar the job. Quality workmanship shows even through paint.
John Sprung.
Shellac and wax is my favorite interior finish.
Oh, no matter, I wasn't reacting to the comments about wives, I lurk all the time and I get a kick out of the wife remarks. They usually all have an undertone of real humor and affection that I enjoy.
I'm just finding it very valuable to learn some of the thinking behind the ultimate choices that are made, and getting insight into what working professionals "see" that is different from what I see. That's really what intriqued me about this thread. My dining room is pink, and it's a small room, and to my eyes, to have the trim in a "wood" color instead of white would make it more "busy" visually. And yes, the antique cherry silver cabinet in the room just glows against the pink, as do the mahoghany and pine pieces. The teak doesn't hold up to pink walls too well, but as you can tell the dining room is a mixed bag furniture-wise. I'll spend some time imagining cherry crown up there.
In a different house in a different part of the country, I would think differently.
Now how about an opinion on this. Is it better to have painted trim or no trim at all?You can choose to be part of the solution, or part of the problem. Or like me, you can be an overachiever, and do both.
In the South, stained or varnished trim & woodgrain showing hollow core doors are seen in the cheapest of homes, particurarly the track houses of the 60's. All the better homes have painted trim and lots of it. Guess we like the "Wedding Cake" look.
I think it is a regional thing.Print Your Own Scrapbook Supplies http://www.ScrapbookScrapbook.com Mosaics for Architecture & Fun http://www.Mosaic-Tile-Design Italian Style Small Vacation Concrete Home http://www.ScrapbookScrapbook.com/DAC-ART
Oh please, I beg of you...use trim!!! I implore you..even if its 2 1/4" finger joint clamshell casing..pleeeeeease use trim!
IMHOJ. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I guess it all depends on the look you are trying to achieve and personal preference.
But I agree, painting over nice wood is a no-no for me. The design should accomodate the wood if it is of good quality.
When starting from scratch and deciding to go with paint grade trim to paint it to achieve a certain look, I think the quality factor has nothing to do with the fact that the wood is paint grade. It could be the best quality paint grade wood and installation.
On the other hand, I've seen people stain poorly installed finger jointed pine trim! Now that's definititely low quality.
F.M.
yeah, stained finger jointed pine trim. Could never figure that out. Especially around aluminum windows. Single pane sliders in a heating climate. Massive wall of window glass with a thin potbellied woodburner in a large two story room with the black chimney pipe going straight up through the roof in the center of the room.
I've noticed that natural wood trim such as window casings, base and especially crown molding seem to be a statement of quality in the midwest and east
I work for a specialty woodworking shop where we do architectural trim work in some very exclusive homes, (here in the midwest) and in the last 2 years we have done more painted wood work than natural . To suggest that the workmanship is inferior because it is painted is an assumption that I would assume comes from someone who doesn't know or do any woodworking themselves. Because we make off the cuff remarks about "close enough for this barn" or "caulk and paint will make it what it aint" does not mean that there isn't any quality in the product that we put out. I would guess that every construction site has an old tradesman that has a whole toolbox full of these sayings. There isn't a carpenter on our site that is over mid forties and I would stack our work up against most anybodies, maybe in your area you have to find a 75 year old carpenter to do a job right but that is not the case here.
I prefer painted woodwork over natural myself because I like that the paint doesn't distract from the profile of the wood, it actually highlights it. I am planing on building a house for my family this year and it will have painted wood work with the exception of the kitchen and the den, I have a weakness for cherry and tiger maple.
To classify painted wood work as a sign of poor workmanship or that it is to hide distressed woodwork shows your narrowminded opinion of woodwork as a whole. Painted or natural, it really doesn't matter, it is what the homeowner wants that matters.
Also if you think that the only way that you can get the work done right is if the carpenter is 104 years old also shows that you must not know what's going on out there, I've seen some pretty spectacular work done in the last few years and it was done by carpenters in there 30's and 40's.
Just as its anybodies opinion about painted verses natural, its only my opinion that some of you are not in touch with what's going on out there.
Doug
I replaced most of the trim in an older church a couple of years back. I have the old trim stickered up as it is clear quarter sawn fir with ! two or three coats of pink and dark brown paint. Some people... guess they didn't know God doesn't allow people who do those sort of things to go to heaven.
I feel like I should stick my foot in here...I think it is a regional thing, or maybe in this day and age with no one staying in one place very long a regional-person thing. In my short experience paint or clear don't the quality make. in fact a poor clear job probably looks better than a poor paint job.
maybe that's the argument for clear.
GO
I recently transferred a curved staircase to my home from an old victorian that was being torn down for a parking lot. (oh gawd I hate that) People dare call me a carpenter because I show up with tools they don't have and do a basic passing job. The percision of the trim knowing the hand tools those guys worked with makes me salute. A curved plaster wall had large 3 piece baseboard. Upon removal one could see the hand kerfing on the backside to make the curve. I pictured a workman with his hand saw making the repetious cuts. I kept the piece because it couldn't be thrown away. An interesting point that under the multiple layers of white paint were poplar boards. Apparently no thought of being anything but painted. Corners still coped tight. I look at their work and shudder. Now those guys can carry the title carpenter.
I do the same quality work for painted and clear, pretty much....no 3/16 gaps, puhleeze. Personally....I prefer the look of painted trim; definitely outside, usuallly inside. Save the clear wood for cabinets and features. It's like Windsor chairs; they were expressly designed to be painted, and they look better that way....grain distracts from the intent. A crappy job shows through the paint anyway, in some cases more than if the finish was clear. Definitley, in wood finishing, a good paint finish is considered more demanding than clear.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
That's such a good analogy Adrian. As several others have stated, while stain grade may imply a level of quality, it's not a decorating statement that suits every home or taste.
As for your, and others', words about paint-grade quality: have you ever noticed how many people will stop and admire well-done painted trim ? This is particularly true if a bolder profile has been used and it's nicely painted.
As for the bad rap that younger trimmers are getting, I think that's a function of money: if you can get paid the same, or more for doing "okay" than "nice", then most guys with mortgages and young families will deliver "okay". .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Phil,
I think the quality of todays work has more to do with what people are willing to accept rather than the attention to detail we are capable of.
Case in point, my wifes cousins home. He makes some big bucks with a big firm, so he decides to buy himself a million dollar home. The house is located in a nice area on a good size peice of land. However, if the builder were to try and convince me it cost him more than 100K to build he`d never be able to do it. He`s got vinyl siding, formica cabinets and countertops, hollow core doors and the list goes on.
My point is that most people just don`t demand nor expect much for their money any longer when it comes to their homes. If the realtor tells them its a million dollar home, than it must be. J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Which was also my point Jaybir, the young guys will go for the path of least resistance, and in today's market, that's volume. As to property values, around here it's the location of the lot more than anything else: move my little house about 5 miles west and 5 miles south and it would appreciate at least $500K..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I dont think you guys would like it round here.
ALL new house trim is MDF. The very occaisional one will use finger jointed pine, ( it all gets painted, usually the same colour as the walls............)
The odd rare one will use Rimu, a beautiful native timber.
Standard stuff is hollow doors ( I cant rember the last new solid door I fitted ), aluminium windows ( BLECH! ) , most doors are 'slimline' so no trim. cheesy kitchens, small bedrooms, etc etc. awful.
Old houses from 50 years ago are a pleasure to work on. Lots of solid well made doors, wide trim in attractive wood, floors made of wood, not particle board......
I saw an outfit recently that does relocatable houses. they make them in the yard and then truck them out totally finished. They were starting to build them using 1 3/4 inch particle board. The whole damn thing, floors, walls, ceiling. It was just boxes inside boxes. Everything was white.
Sometimes i wonder why I became a carpenter.
Wood Hoon
AJ- Did you say one and three quarters inch particle board or 3/4 inch particle board?
I used to be convinced that painting wood trim was at best an awful shame. My wife still feels this way. Lately though I have come to realize that what is more important is that the design details of a room make a coherent whole and relate properly to each other. In the majority of cases it seems that painted trim is the best way to achieve this look.
Anybody see that TLC show "Trading Spaces"? Most participants in that show spend most of their time worrying that their wood or brickwork would be painted (and it most often was). The thing that really got me is that most times, their stuff looked way better painted as part of an overall design for the room. I guess for the average Joe Homeowner with no exposure to design "wood=classy" serves as an easy rule of thumb for them. Having lived in the central regions as well as the west coast, I have no problem with the theory that midwesterners have less design savvy and therefore are more blindly in favour of wood trim in all circumstances. (GDR)
I get the feeling that for those on this forum, the issue is not a lack of design experience leading to a preference for natural wood, but rather an appreciation of the craftsmanship behind unpainted wood trim. This seems to be entirely different from Joe Homeowner's reasoning, even if they reach the same conclusion.Close enough for government work
Here in Georgia, it is hard to find carpenters with the skills to install stain grade wood trim. I would say that at least 90% of the new houses built on St. Simons and Sea Island will have generic paint grade Base, Chair Rail and Crown.
We are currently remodeling a house that had the most hideous looking clear coated crown and base I have ever seen. It was poplar that was installed with no regard to grain or color matching. We were able to convince the new owner that it would look much nicer painted. She has allowed us to have the base and crown painted, however we are going to use Mahogany, Maple, and Cherry for the casing in the house. She loves nice wood and wants to see it, not have it covered in paint.
Attached is a picture of the Brazillian Cherry ceiling and crown molding in the family room.TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
Roger
What the hell are you talking about, midwesterners have know design savvy, I have worked in 6 houses in the last 2 1/2 years that are in the 2 to 5 million dollar range and square foot from 6000 to 18,000 and these homes would rank right up there with any homes you might see on some of those fancy home shows, and I damn sure don't mean trading places. Over half of them are painted woodwork or in a large part painted. Our quality is no less for painted as is for natural. Coped joints fit tight, just as they would for natural, the quality is there. The price for painted is higher than for natural because of the prep and the time to do is longer than for natural, if cheep was what they were after than they would put down your typical colonial base and case and all the other standard cheep stuff.
I know most people think we are hicks here in the midwest but this is a small world now and we get some of those fancy magazine, and TV shows that you big shots get on the cost.
Quit trying to rationalize why some areas chose paint over natural and leave it at " its a matter of choice".
Dougto
Must be a regional thing. Pick up a copy of Southern Living and you will see very few high end homes with stained trim. Around here people stain trim because it's faster and easier. Sand it, stain it, coat it, cut it, nail it up, putty the holes... you're done.
On my house, I'm using stain grade trim. Much of the pine for the stools and jambs I had to run through a drum sander to get it smooth enough to even use. I then rough cut it to length, sand it, fill any imperfections, sand again, and then prime. Then sand and coat with oil base. Then cut to final length, nail it up, fill and caulk, sand again, then mask and put on the final coat. Only problem I have is my joints are so tight I can't get much spackle in them. I learned to rip the jambs just a little narrow so there'd be enough of a crack where it meets the window to get a bead of caulk that would actually seal the joint.
Stained trim is used to, but unless it's oak -- done right -- it just looks cheap. No one here uses cherry, walnut, etc. for trim. I like oak trim, in some houses.
Maybe it's just the type of house you're putting it in.
Rusty
What do you mean, maybe its the type of house your putting it in? I have responded to this thread a couple of times and have made the argument that painted trim is of the same quality as natural woodwork, at least in the high end homes that I've been lucky enough to work in for the past few years. We did a house that has been complete for about a year now and we used 20,000 bd. ft. of walnut, 10,000 bd. ft. of oak, 15,000 bd. ft. popular, and another 10,000 bd. ft. of maple. Probably the finest home I have ever seen or been in. We are doing a penthouse that has predominantly painted woodwork, but also approximately 7000 board feet of cherry has been used thus far. The quality that we put into the cherry cabinetry is the same quality that we put into the painted woodwork.
You say that around where you live that stain grade trim is used because it is quicker and is easier, theres know question that that's true but in million dollar plus home they are not necessarily looking for quicker and easier, they are looking for quality and sometimes they are willing to wait for it to be done right.
Doug
Several here have mentioned in this thread that stain grade trimwork is faster than paint grade. Please splain, cause I must be doing something wrong.
PAINT GRADE;
(1) Install {I do strive for perfection during installation, but if its getting caulked I wont recut peice more than once.} (2) Caulk and putty (3) Prime (4) Lightly sand (5) Apply first coat (6) Apply finish coat. {When using latex paints, it is often possible to get more than one coat applied per day.
STAIN GRADE;
(1) Install {I will accept nothing less than perfection if it means recutting a peice ten times} (2) Lightly sand (3) Apply stain (4) Apply first coat polyurethane (5) Lightly sand (6) Apply second coat poly (7) lightly sand (8) Putty fastener holes with color match (9) Apply final coat poly (10) Lightly sand {I rarely use water based urethane so time between coats is adds up}
I dont see how its possible for paint grade trim to require more time.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jaybird
I'll splain
First of all if I'm installing paint grade trim it goes in the same as if it was stain grade, caulking is done but not to hide my inability to make a proper cut or fit, only to hide the fine line in the joint so when the paint is applied it shows as one unit. The work that we do is not usually painted with water base paint, usually lacure(sic) or oil paint, and always sprayed.
The thing that maybe regional is the demand for paint or natural, which sometimes has a lot to do with cost, but here in the midwest if you want paint it will cost more, and that's across the board, from your 120,000.00$ starter home to the 3 to 4 million dollar high end home. In this area the only person that is doing a cheap job on painted woodwork is the diy'er, no contractors. I don't know of to many builders who paint or for that matter finish woodwork themselves, its usually subbed out, I'm sure there are some but they are far and few between.
Admittedly the population of the area that I'm in (50 mile radius) is probably less than 300,000, to some of you out there that's just the one side of town, and that may have something to do with it, subcontractors do do most of the work so if its a painter he/she is probably doing a better job than you(no offense, never seen your work) because they do just that, they didn't build it all they did was paint all day long, bound to be better.
Doug
Doug,
Thanx for the splanation...but I still dont see how painting = more labor, especially if you`re spraying.
I also didnt mean to say the caulking was done to make up for lack of ability, but if a coped joint isnt airtight I see no reason to futz with a joint thats going to get caulked anyhow.
As for the finishing (painting or staining) I sub that out as well. If I were to do it myself no one would be able to afford my hourly rate.(I`m slooooooooooooow) However no painting contractor Ive ever worked with charges less for staining. Perhaps that too is a regional thing?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
As a Midwestern builder, although rural, my experience has been:
Yes we do alot of stained trim, probably due to the availability of nice hardwoods. Also, country living leads to rustic designing, thus wood.
We also do alot of paint grade. Depends on the interior design concept, such as a formal colonial style.
I do see paint grade more often in higher end homes. One theory I have is that it requires a little more maintainance, therefore it is avoided by lower end homeowners , due to perceived cost.
As for the installation in either case, if it does'nt " fit like it grew there", don't nail it! Caulk?
Personally, my home is all stain grade, various woods, extremely rustic, but that's just our style. Laid back casual, very informal. Heck, my wife is still trying to get me to clean my boots off, before coming in from the horse corral. But , I never see the dogs (4) clean theirs, so why should I:)
Brudoggie
Every time I type this out it looks wrong somehow, so the long way it is. ( sorry )
A full inch plus another 3/4. In my lingo it is approx 40mm. damn heavy stuff.
The whole house turns up flat packed on a truck and is stood up a room at a time. The door and window holes are cut out with a chainsaw as they go. I got a load of 'offcuts' to take home. Some are huge. I am going to have some serious benches soon...........
Wood Hoon
wood hoon- I find this intriguing. one and three quarter inches thick of particle board. Is this the same particle board I'm thinking of that swells when it gets wet or is this a different product? What do they do, lap the 3/4inch over the seams of the one inch stuff?
The offcuts I got, some had been outside getting wet for a little while. As far as I can tell, no swelling. But, they have a white coating on them, sort of a paint. ( at least thats what it looks like. ) The joints are just plastered over, then painted. The inch and three quarters.........all one bit to arrive at that thickness. That is, SOLID inch and 3/4. Thats why its so heavy.
The outside of the building has 3x2" battens, fibreglass insulation in between, then normal siding over that. Usually some sort of hardies product.
The electrician has fun working with such a thin wall, so almost no power points are anywhere other than an outside wall. Likewise for plumbing. The 'houses' are so small this doesnt present any problems anyway.
Wood Hoon
I've never seen 1 3/4 inch particle board in my young life:) let alone in the walls of a structure. An inch in one-half of fiberglass insulation tells me these are being built down south or west in a low heating climate if your in the U.S. but 40mm tells me you're ...down under or where? What is the average size of these homes and are they all located in a housing developement? Ya, time to build a kickin' heavy workbench.
Edited 6/14/2002 4:07:37 AM ET by rez
Edited 6/14/2002 4:14:45 AM ET by rez
I am in New Zealand. The climate varies quite a bit from one end to the other, ( sub tropical to sub antartic.......well, nearly. <G> )
For the most part the climate is pretty good compared with Northern hemisphere countries. The growing season is pretty long.
2 inch thick fibreglass batts are standard insulation throughout the country. Lotsa folks are installing heat pumps for new houses, woodburners are popular. ( I wouldnt trade my woodburner for any kind of money )
The 'houses' are advertised as relocatable ones, so most folks who buy them want one as an office that can move when they do, as a 'granny flat' for an aging relative next to their own home, as a first home for those on a budget, etc .
The size of them usually is small, really small.
My RAS table is going to be mucho solid. heehee
Wood Hoon
Edited 6/14/2002 4:20:35 AM ET by AJINNZ
oh, so relocatable would mean the walls can be dropped and flatbedded out of there or the buildings are so small they can just be lifted up whole and trucked out with ease? Ya, a woodburner is hard to beat. When its ice and snow nothing compares to standing next to ####hot woodstove. Heat pumps are a joke. A friend had one and had in on all the time and still walked around with a blanket all winter. Useless things.
The whole structure is carted off on a truck in one piece. This is a pretty commonplace thing here. Smaller houses like these are pretty easy, big ones get chainsawed into manageable bits that are reassembled on site.
A few years ago a BIG hotel was moved in Wellington. A multi story concrete thing. They made a special little low profile railway for it, sawed through all the support piers and sooo slowly moved it to the other side of the street. very impressive.
Yup, woodburners rule. :) Installed our wetback 2 days ago, and plumbed in the outdoor bath. My wife is deliriously happy.
Wood Hoon
Man, I'd like to see one of those houses. But bet it's a lot stronger than the stud wall with plywood sheathing at the corners for racking and celotex fiberboard covering the rest of the walls I see being built here. A little more jazz with vinyl siding, roll fiberglass insulation with drywall and paint and voila, 21rst century american heritage to pass on to your grandchildren. Kinda like disposable diapers- they live in 'em a while and then throw 'em away.
Haahaa. Thats what these are, throw away houses. They are popular as a first house, but resale is awful cos they look like what they are, cheap. No soul, no character, just a sterile box that is a place to sleep in. ICK!
You are right though, the first thing I thought ( apart from 'damn thats ugly!' ) was that it would be incredibly strong. Thre whole structure is one massive sheet brace.
Wood Hoon
"Everything you know is wrong." - The Firesign Theater
"There is no accounting for taste." - Anonymous
It's always a regional thing. This is my opinion, based on living and working the 1) The San Francisco area 2) The Boulder, CO area, and 3) The Portland, Maine, area.
- Necessity forces a lot of decisions around housing.
S.F. needs earthquake-proofing, Maine needs humidity control.
- Availability used to force a lot of the decisions about what materials to use.
Maine had lots of stone and lots of wood, no clay or sun for adobe.
- Traditions resulting from the above are carried on without anyone neccessarily knowing the reasoning.
The S.F. I grew up in was battleship gray, a tradition. The tradition began with surplus U.S. Navy bottom paint.
-The homeowner's budget (in both money and time) has always forced a lot of the decisions about what to spend the money/time on, in a house.
Lack of spending on seismic steel =more interior trim.
- The ostentatious rich have always used, and I suppose, will always use, the most exotic materials they can afford.
Malachite counter tops are soft & poisonous. Why would a homeowner want them? For some, because you can't afford them.
- Personally, I prefer un-painted, 'natural finish' wood in a house. When it eventually gets banged up enough that it pains me to look at it, I fill in the dings with putty, sand it smooth, and paint it. I do not like stained wood, especially, for some reason, pine.
"There is no accounting for taste."
-I thought, that after 12 years living in a place where trim is wood and walls are plaster, I'd gag when going home to visit my folks. Not so. Their house is "busy" to my eye, all sorts of different wood species: Black-stained fir beams, pine ceiling, redwood walls, cherry door... I loved it. To me, it's a gem, an absolute beauty. I've decided that a lot of what we like as adults is a result of what we grow up with.
"There is no accounting for taste."
- My family, mostly artists, will argue for hours about wether that color is blue, green, turquoise, aqua... I've decided that what it gets down to for me is...
"I like it/don't like it."
- If my client wants it, 'cause they'll like it, and I know I could never live with it myself, I build with good joints, good painting technique, etc. I become the best technician I can be, and draw my satisfaction from that. I recently overheard a 20-something barista telling her friend that her dream is to do her first house (it'll be a split-level ranch doncha' know) with avocado-sunburst appliances, orange & brown shag carpet, and one of those wagon-wheel chandeliers in the dining room. "It'll be soooo cool."
"There is no accounting for taste."
Enjoy folks, it takes all kinds. Be the best builder you can be, Gerard
Interesting post, Gerald. Probably the best one on the subject so far.
I got an answering machine for my phone. Now when I'm not home and somebody calls me up, they hear a recording of a busy signal.
IMHO a lot of this has to do with money and style. When the continent was young good wood was cheap and easy to get. Some old homes have boards as roof sheathing, a typical place to put uglier woods, that are beautiful 5/4, blemishless, a full 18" wide and 30' long. The same board today would cost a small fortune and would be, should be, reserved for a prominent spot and be lovingly fitted and finished.
Times change. In that day and age people painted their trim because any hick could have clear wood but only the wealthy, or those wanting to appear wealthy, could afford the imported paint. Later when simple paint became common. Exotic and saturated colors became the style as the pigments were still an imported extravagance.
In areas with lots of oak oak was cheap so to maintain appearances people import cherry or any other species that has to be shipped a few thousand mile and cost a fortune. When good wood becomes expensive enough people folks will install it unpainted to advertise their ability to afford it.
With each turn a new fashion statement was needed to be the talk of the town. As transportation systems became more robust even common folks, ever following their "betters", could afford the style of the day. This of course meant that the style had to change to something the common people can't afford.
God forbid that the rich and the rabble should have houses decorated the same way. You might not be able to tell them apart and the social structure would shake. In a plutocratic society one needs to know who to dismiss and who to brown nose. All these democratic ideals. Everyone getting a vote? Individual rights? Don't these people know that the country is run by those who own it? I better build me a mansion big and expensive enough to remind these peasants who is really in charge.
I associate real wood grain with a respect for nature. A gentle salute to the tree likely far older than myself and as each piece proclaims, individuality. Even cheap pine trim when clear finished will tell you about that. A tight joint neatly done will tell you about adapting to the individuality of each piece or wood and honest craftsmanship well done more out of respect for the material than money. I take solace in my architecture reflecting my politics and world view
4
I think that you have over thought this whole thing just a little bit to much(ok, maybe way to much). Has it ever dawned on you, or for that matter, anybody else who thinks the same way, that some people and I'm glad to say that I know quit a few of them, just plain don't care what is trendy or what Martha Stewart does, they do what they like and the hell with what's in style. You equate someone's likes or dislikes based solely on trend and economic factors. I know that I like painted wood, installed as good as anybody installs natural wood, because craftsmanship does count and it cant be hidden behind paint any easier than varnish. I don't care if the whole world stopped painting there woodwork, I still like painted woodwork, plain and simple, no psycho babble about what other people think or want.
I am currently working in a place that the home owner has a combination of painted woodwork and cherry. The cherry is stained so dark that I'm not sure that the average person would even know that it is cherry, It certainly would not be my choice to stain this dark but he likes it, doesn't care weather or not anybody else does, He definitely doesn't care what the trend is regarding cherry woodwork, he likes it and that's all that matters. I don't think he is alone out there. I believe that there are a lot of people out there that feel the same in regard to there personal taste.
Your comments have some validity but I don't think that it is that simple.
Doug
I recently overheard a 20-something barista telling her friend that her dream is to do her first house (it'll be a split-level ranch doncha' know) with avocado-sunburst appliances, orange & brown shag carpet, and one of those wagon-wheel chandeliers in the dining room. "It'll be soooo cool."
Gerard, my mother grew up in Redlands CA. It is about 60 miles east of LA. From about 1880 to about 1920 it became a warm weather haven for rich eastern families. There are hundreds of fabulous Craftsman bungalows to Craftsman mansions. She always thought the Craftsman style to be hideous: dark, depressing and gloomy. She can't figure out why her kids love Craftsman homes...It must be a generational thing...
AK373,
Touche! I concede your point. However, I do so without rescinding mine.
Here is a thought: Poverty forces effiency, wealth buys choice.
I think we have discovered that there is more than one factor at work in the choice of styles. I would still say that, if you go back far enough in time, region (available materials & weather), have more impact than generations. I'll guess that generational differences in taste can be satisfied only if there is enough technological change & excess money to support those differences in taste. (Example: Ranch-style houses are actually quite popular here in Maine, where they simply would not have made sense 200 years ago. A ranch has a low volume-surface ratio that loses heat which would have risen to warm upstairs rooms in a two-story house. Generalized wealth in this country allowed us to buy fossil fuels at a price that allowed comfortable living in ranch-style houses. Technological change has given us insulation and furnaces that will still allow people to live in ranch-style houses, even with a rise in fuel prices.)
About the generational thing
Just something I think I've observed, others, please weigh in with your observations: Tastes seem to skip a generation. my father really looked up to my great-grandpartents, to the point where his energy and the focus of his life has been to purchase and live in a house in the woods. Works for him. I grew up in the midst of that back-to-the-land movement in the early 70's and have no desire to live in the places or in the ways he does. My ideal house looks a lot closer to my grand-parents', in both style and setting. I think at least some of the generational thing can be explained by a teenage-separation-from-parents thing. Perhaps we associate our parents with their surroundings, and when we separate from them, we unconsciously separate from their choice of surroundings. Hmm.
Gerard
I've seen particle board about that size used for "workmate" type folding benches, tops for Sears RAS saws, benchtop tool tables, that sort of stuff..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I would agree that there were some old carpenters that did some amazing things with hand tools. There's a house here in town that has some incredible arches done in wood. The house was built around 1890, so it had to be done with hand tools, I assume. I don't think I could even do it with power tools.
I was gone all weekend so I didn't have a chance to read any of this until this morning. For the most part I have to say that the replies bear out my observation that in the midwest and east there are many people (most of whom are not carpenters and have no concept of coping and mitering) who feel that natural wood trim is a statement of class in a home, and that fewer people in the west have that perception. Perhaps that is because there were fewer hardwoods available in the west before trucks and good highways made shipping inexpensive. Perhaps it is because of the Spanish/mediterranean influence of stucco and plaster building methods. Perhaps we are just more highly evolved...(that is a joke, repeat, that is a joke)
Going from regional observations and generalization to personal preference, I hate natural wood trim in homes. When I walk into a house with hardwood baseboards, window casing and crown molding I feel like I'm looking at a picture where someone has outlined everything with a thick dark line, like in a children's coloring book. In other words, it draws my eye and my attention to outlines instead of to the room as a whole.
I work as a trim carpenter and do a lot of bright (clear finished) work mixed with paint grade. I charge about 3 times more for bright work. Putty and paint can make a carpenter what he ain't. In my experience this is quite the truth. I love wood, and not like a kiss kiss thing, I really love wood, but, when we built our present house, we had all the trim painted. Matter of fact the whole interior is painted white, very subtle and very comfortable. No statements, it's a Carolina farmhouse, plenty of details, but nothing that jumps out, except for the dog...I've always been a fan of subtle, seems like if it's lowkeyed and people notice it, it's really goood work. Regional, I don't think so, unless that means keeping up with the Joneses, I'm thinking it's personal, but FWIW most interior stuff around here(central NC) is painted...
ya,
be a fan of subtleThe bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
doode, you are the master of subtle...ya waited four years to reply<G>don't be rushin' a good thing, eh? "I am the master of low expectations." Georgie Boy, aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003
I'm gonna buy me a truck, and then I'll buy up all that "Garbage" painted trim I can find on one side of the country and drive across america to sell at a premium someplace else. There I'll do everyone a favour by buying up all that awful unpainted trim and truck it back the other way where I can sell it at a premium and finance another trip...
JAG
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And When I must Leave the Great River, Oh Bury Me Close to its wave,And Let My Canoe and My Paddle, Be the only Mark over my Grave
Zone 5b Brantford Ontario, Canada
I'm familiar with currency arbitrage, but this is the first time I've encountered molding argitrage. Or is that moulding? :)
Painted or stained? Definately regional, but also historical. Colonial houses, Federal, Georgian, up through Civil War era all trim was painted. Of course the wood was primarily clear old growth pine and poplar since it was all hand planed and it is tough to plane knotty wood. The joinery was impressive, but I have also seen plenty of 1/8" gaps if you know where to look. Stained wood first started appearing in Victorian homes in the late 1800's and early 1900's with the advent of power tools that turned out hardwood millwork in mass quantities. I have seen grain painted trim in old houses, usually remodels dating from the late 1800's, probably to modernize the old homes to imitate the modern millwork going in at that time. Craftsman style homes also tended to have stained wood, but the style was also carried through in cheaper homes using paint grade wood species. You see this echoed in "Eastlake" style furniture. The carpenters doing the work knew how to do the joinery, but remember back then that those trades were pretty exclusive. DIYers were probably poor or farmers who couldn't afford or find the skilled craftsman when they needed them. In my mind the style of house should dictate whether the trim is stained or painted. There is no reason why it should ever be poor grade of wood or shoddy workmanship, not paint nor stain can really hide that. I don't particularly like stained clamshell molding, but it looks fine on 60's or 70's style ranchers and when done right, it looks fine. In my experience here in the northeast, classy homes in pre-1850's styles have painted trim, anything that echoes victorian tastes is stain-grade stuff.