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Last season, my daughter and I agonized over how much her friends were paying for pavers and landscaping.
She’s comtemplating jumping into the business with her husband. I am considering financing the start up and lending my admittedly weak business expertise.
My question: Is there anyone in here currently in the paver business? Ar the profits as high as they seem to be?
blue
Replies
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Not in the business, but after seeing prices for landscaping and pavers, I understand the allure. Even better that it's your daughter who will have an experienced building pro behind her, and keep the building trade in the family. Good luck.
*blue_eyed_devil -I often find myself thinking the grass is greener....I am always amazed at how much it cost to get things done. I often find myself thinking the subs are the ones making out the best. They probably think the same thing about carpenters. And everyone thinks the general contractor is getting rich off the job (and their work). We're all probably mistaken. And occasionally we're all right.Hmm....Landscaping does have its appealing qualities..Best of luck to you.
*Blue, I am a landscaper specializing in the construction end: decks, retaining walls, and a whole lot of pavers. I do new plantings but no maintenance. (I mowed a lot of lawns as a kid & now find it a chore to get my own done!)Everything is expensive these days. I don't know what they get for pavers where you are, but I can assure you I am not getting rich doing this. By the way, I have over 15 years experience, 9 in my own business. The more my business grows, the less I make. I have spent a good part of the winter going over the numbers and learning more about mark-up, etc. Had 3 guys plus me last year. With comp. rates around 10% and all the other payroll and insurance costs, the overhead is huge. Truck and backhoe payments, etc.It is hard to compete purely on price. It seems like everybody with a pickup truck and a buggy (wheelbarrow) is a paving stone contractor these days. I get most of my work from referrals now, and I have a reputation for creative designs & high quality work, so the answer is to start charging more! Also branching out into the increasingly popular water garden field this year. Hope to have some fun and make some $$$ with that. Is the grass greener? It rarely is, but I do love the work!
*Bearmom, we've crunchedt he numbers and see a markup of at least 100%. Possibly 150%.Our direct costs are about $10 per square foot, and pavers are selling, installed at about $25 per foot, depending on design-more for intricacies.Is that the numbers that you are experiencing?blue
*Blue, where are you? I am packing my tools as I write! Installed I get $8-10/sq.ft., even less on big projects. Even at those prices, I lose some work to low bidders. If I was getting $25 I wouldn't be able to type this, I'd be out ordering a new truck!
*Hehehehehe, bearmom!The metro detroit area is booming, teaming with yuppies that have to keep up with the Jones's. We visited a small bldrs show in the flint area last week. There were two small time landscaping firms that had displays. One charged 10 per foot, for LEfarge products-basic design, four inch slagstone base, the other up to 12 per foot.That confirms our "costs" and gives us a good idea that it will be very profitable. I know for sure that the people that we know have paid $20 and more. One friend couldn't get any contractor to return his call. And he had called a lot of contractors! he took the first guy that showed up and was tickled pink about his project, despite the enormous pricetag.And yes, they all do drive nice new stake dump trucks with nice new bobcats, and trailers!We'll be very interested to see what the price structure is at the huge Detroit Home and Flower show coming up this month.Forging onward,blue
*Anybody else out there want to share their experiences in this field??Blue, on to production issues: 4-6" base for patios and walkways; 10-12" for driveways. Built up in lifts and tamped like crazy! I prefer crushed limestone, but will use screened bank-run in a pinch. You have to use what is available. Gravel pits are different based on local ground conditions.A transit (builders level) to set grades helps make sure the water is dealt with. Laser variety optional. At least 1/8" per ft. pitch. Screeding both the last lift of base and the sand layer gives you a nice flat (but not level!) surface. Cuts must be done with a diamond blade for professional results. At $20 or more per sq.ft., it better be a professional looking job! I use hand held Stihls w/ 12" blades. Some prefer wet saws.A design appropriate for the site, and attention to details (like gradework & fussy cuts) are very important. Feel free to ask about anything else.Jealously, Bear
*Blue...Some figures from our last house...The pavers cost the guy $3.50 persqft and were from Canada. He charged around 12.50/sqft including materials...4inches of stone dust leveled several times and tamped for over two or more days...more leveling and screeding, lots of transitting...lots of taped fingers...lots of laying, knees, up and down work...The stone went down very fast...All the time was in the prep...The lead guy worked his butt off...Looked very tired every day...no trouble sleeping I bet....Good money for hard work is what I saw!near the stream,ajps...fencing...now that's a trade with little ladder work and holes so small you don't fall in to your death...and the mark up if you get your speed up is crazy good...And the new vinyl stuff is great in every way!!b The NY Tennis and Fence Company...
*My experience with pavers is a little different. All the packing and tamping happens with the sub-substrate. The last layer is not sand, but a coarse edged birds-eye gravel. That is then layed about 2 inches thick, and screeded to the desired pitch. We used steel pipes in the gravel set to grade with a transit, as screed guides. This layer should be figured so that the pavers stand up about 3/8 higher than you want. Lay your pavers. Cut'em good. Then brush silica sand into the cracks with a push broom until full. Now go rent an asphalt tamper. Attach a peice of plywood to the plate to avoid scraching your pavers, and vibrate the hell out of the whole thing. Work in a grid to make sure everything gets shook evenly. The silica will disappear, and the pavers witll lock in so tight that you can drive a semi across them. Keep sweeping in silica until full, then leave it on the surface for about 2 weeks. One final sweep and happy clients is what you got.Scott
*Scott, plywood on the tamper is overly cautious. You can tamp directly on the pavers with a plate compactor, even with clay pavers (not regular brick). You may get a few chipped bricks doing this, but those were weak anyway. Replacing them after tamping prevents a call-back later.I use what is called concrete sand or "grit" around here for the final 1". Fine gravel works, too. Fine mason sand is too fluffy.Same technique with pipes & transit to establish pitch. And we thought we invented that! Forget grade stakes, just shoot the screed pipes. 1/2" galvanized water line in 10' lengths. Good advice on the 3/8" to allow for final tamping.
*Hey Bearmon,Learned that way in Europe.Where is the source for good quality, wide variety pavers? I used a grey concrete paver, that had been tumbled to round off the edges. The pavers looked like some exotic kind of granit. Real soft and subdued.The only pavers I have seen as of yet, are these ones with the false grout lines, or standard six-sided home-depot specials. Where's the good stuff?Scott
*At the "Good Store", Just about any place that squirts out cement block and/or bricks is making them now. I don't think any one hauls them very far any more. I reccomend tumbling them yourself, good use for old cement mixer.If you give out your general location you might get a reccomenation. But the yellow pages and wholesale listings would be a start. The more you buy, the cheaper they get. Negotiate by the semi-loads. It will be half the price or twice as many for the buck.
*Scott, I use Unilock pavers, originally from the Toronto area, but now available in Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Buffalo, & Rochester. Re: tumbled pavers; I've always been careful to not install chipped bricks (use them for cuts), and now they beat 'em up on purpose! Does give a different look that many like. Lots more $$$, though. I suspect that the cost is not so much in the tumbling as in the labor of re-stacking. Regular pavers are stacked mechanically right out of the molds.
*Old is new. It seems like what we were doing in europe was either making something so modern that it could have fallen out of the Enterprise, or as if it had been there the last thousand years. And The old stuff is mostly more $$$. Most likely because people forget how to do the old stuff.
*Update on the paver biz idea.The kid(s) decided to focus on landscaping after researching the business(s). Pavers will still be profitable, if done as a sidebar, and at the proper price. (20-25 per sq). Many landscapers don't want to be bothered with the pavers because they are only getting around 12 per sq. I wouldn't want to be bothered either.It appears that plopping plants is the ticket. Good margins, and doesn't require thousands of hours of apprenticing.Who knows, maybe I'll be raking mulch for them soon.blue
*So blue, I take it the $20+/sq.ft. is a more of an exception, rather than the norm?
*That's what it would appear Bearmon, except we don't know anyone that paid as little as 12$ per ft. We only know of people that have paid 20+. But every contractor that we have talked with ball park everything in the 12+/- range.On the other hand, we felt good that others were happy with 12 per foot, and feel that our estimates regarding labor were accurate. We still think that there is a market at 20$+ but that we will have to "sell" it, rather than give it away at our costs. I've been in business long enough to know that the cheapest isn't alway the best value. Planning on selling value,blue
*BlueHere's something a friend pointed out. Maybe it's useful to you?I have the slick brochure, video and cost sheets.Imprinted Concrete
*Ralph, I suppose you also like vinyl siding better than real wood?
*Bearmon, are you really interested in my thoughts about vinyl or wood, perhaps as a siding material, or are you just sliding in an oblique disparagement of the reference for imprinted concrete that I addressed to BLUE?Since this is the Business section perhaps you could share with us your thoughts, pro or con, about the process, how it works, how it looks, the cost, the effort or level of expertise needed and best of all the return on the investment.Is it a process that works, for the customer and/or the craftsman? Is it a sleazy process, a ripoff, a flash in the pan idea, prone to failure or callback? Is the maintenance factor too high? Does it create competition for your paver products that you would want to quash? Are pavers the be all end all product for functonal, decorative or aesthetic applications or is there room for another idea? Perhaps you could articulate your thoughts as you have done admirably in this thread about the paver business.And when you're done and your throat's parched I'll buy you a cold one in the Tavern.
*Ralph, what I meant was that, to me, stamped concrete tries to be something it is not, like vinyl pretends to be like clapboard siding. It looks good from a distance, but standing on it, it is obviously concrete that has been imprinted.It may well hold up in the south, but in the northern climate I live and work in, it is prone to do what any slab can do: crack, spall, settle, frost heave, etc. There is a very long driveway near me leading to an expensive home that has several cracks visible from the road as you drive by. Sort of shatters the illusion. BTW, it was put in only about two or three years ago.It is very difficult to repair, and very hard to match color on existing stamped concrete if replacement of a section is required. Pavers can be torn out and replaced with no visible change, if done competently. It can be added to in the future, by blending some of the old with the new in the transition area. If the base work is done properly, there is very little settling. If pitched for drainage right, it won't heave in the winter. It is not going to crack, because it already is in a bunch of little pieces! I don't do that work, but my understanding is that colored, stamped concrete goes for a lot more than regular concrete, but a little less than pavers. It is, as always, up to the customer to make a choice. While I do not consider it to be a threat to my business, I have had potential customers mention they were considering stamped 'crete. They usually end up doing pavers, but I have lost a couple of bids to the stuff. Regardless, I stay plenty busy.
*I've seen other imprinted concrete patios. done right, the patios are very nice. Bearmon pointed out the most compelling reason for pavers here in the northern climates, cracking. All concrete cracks, and here in the north, water works it's way into the cracks and freezes, popping the crack apart. Repairs are not viusally pleasing, so the paver industry can do a little bragging about "easy" repairs that keep the patio looking like new for a much longer time than poured concrete.sure it's more epensive, but that fact appeals to the huge number of yuppies here in southeast michigan. Thankfully I live next door to the world's second richest county, and there are lots of yuppies, and yuppie wannabees that will spend the extra for quality products.Now, onto the plopping and planting. I've picked up a new 9 ton Hudson trailer and will be searching for a bobcat, skidsteer, or something like that. I'm posting a help question in the tools section for info on machines.blue
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Last season, my daughter and I agonized over how much her friends were paying for pavers and landscaping.
She's comtemplating jumping into the business with her husband. I am considering financing the start up and lending my admittedly weak business expertise.
My question: Is there anyone in here currently in the paver business? Ar the profits as high as they seem to be?
blue