Its getting hotter and the AC man says
F-U! That’s right, he don’t care if its hot outside and he ain’t gonna super-size me with a 4-ton unit I asked for and was willing to pay for. Today’s forecast (currently +90% humidity)
F-U! That’s right, he don’t care if its hot outside and he ain’t gonna super-size me with a 4-ton unit I asked for and was willing to pay for. Today’s forecast (currently +90% humidity)
There are a number of ways to achieve a level foundation and mudsill.
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Replies
I forgot what size mine is, but its not enough for this weather. 100+ in Ohio. I said to the HVAC guy I want to keep cool on the hottest days last fall, he says mine is large enough. I think it's 2 1/2 tons on a cape cod house. But I still have the 18,000 btu wall unit, so that will frost up the windows (at a high utility cost). That unit comes out when I reside the house though.
Super sizing may cause short cycling durring your regular design degree days, resulting in premature compressor failure. Short cycling will also mean poor dehumdifcation because the unit won't run long enough. The T-stat will be satisfied on air temperature, but you will still fell"muggy" because the RH is still to high.
The guy is thinking of both your best interest. He wants you cool and comfortable, and he doesn't want you calling him about sh*ty equipment that burned out durring the first season of operation.
Dave
Good answer Dave. Most people don't understand how refrigeration works (though they believe they do) and think they are being mis informed.
Like with everything else in the world we have access to so much info, good and bad, we can't differentiate between the two.
roger
Consumer ignorance is not always a good thing, but I am sure that HVAC and several other trades would like to keep that ignoarnce in place. The last thing HVAC contractors want is a bunch of licensed DIYers doing their own HVAC work. :)
Also, you, like Dave, give no consideration to the track-home install being borderline in needs and requirements, let alone non-traditional needs by a homeowners. If you are scared to take their money and give them what they want under normal business operations, then have the home owner sign away a liability waiver. I have pen in hand. :)
All of those issues (while all very important) aside, most contractors would be liable for creating a mold factory, even at the insistence of the customer. The lawyers would rightfully make the case, that the professional knew better, or at least should have. Additionally, the manufacturers of equipment, at least all the major ones (one of which is my employer), would strongly discourage contractors from installing their products in poorly thoughtout installations, or as they would term it, "non'standard" applications. The manufacturer would ultimately be responsible for replacing the failed compressor that probably wouldn't make it through the 5 year warranty period.
Edited 8/10/2007 2:42 pm by Tim
Didn't even think about the mold factor and liabilty issue.
Always glad to see you participate in these disscussions. I learn something every time you post.
Dave
Tim, what liability would a contractor have for undersizing a system that leads to heat stroke? The lawyer in me wants to know. Heat stroke vs mold production. Can an additional effort be made to proactively remove humidity (moisture) from the air when the air handler isn't cycling? Last time I checked many retailers were selling these. I would be surprised that a non-coil/compressor run stage to 'move air and remove humidity' system wasn't already available to address this issue.
Oh, it DOES exist and I have had someone try to sell me this. So, even if the coil/compressor was running on short-cycles, the air blower and dehumidifier system would run longer cycles for the purpose of removing moisture from the air.
Why don't you do your own calculations. I think that you can do then on a room by room basis. and also adjust for heat loads.http://www.hvaccalc.com/main.asp
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, I am planning on doing that! In fact, I spent the morning taking measurements.
"what liability would a contractor have for undersizing a system that leads to heat stroke?"
I would imagine proof of such a cause/effect would be impossible. If someone were in such poor health that 85 or 90 degrees would "cause" a heat stroke, there are obviously mitigating circumstances. Are you saying your AC can't maintain cool ednough conditions to prevent a heat stroke? Quite an exagerration, me thinks.
The cause/effect relationship between oversized HVAC cooling systems and poor dehumification, and therefore the creation of fungi loving conditions in a living space, are however, very well known and well documented.
The liability for loss of life, would in my non-lawyer opinion, be the same, should loss of life occur as a direct result of gross negligence on the part of the installer
OTOH, I also find it hard to believe that you couldn't find some hack to hook you up for an extra ton or so. If I were near you, I'd take your money, after you signed the release form, of course. The absence of this discussion would be worth it alone.
"Can an additional effort be made to proactively remove humidity (moisture) from the air when the air handler isn't cycling..."? There are three (practical) ways to remove moisture from, or dry air: 1)one is to cool it below its dewpoint; 2) is to pass the air through a disiccant; and 3) dilute the moist air with a dry(er) air source. There are units that are "bypass" types of dehumidifers, which are like the standard stand-alone types that are ducted across the air hadler/furnace. With constant fan operation, it will dehumidify constantly, until it is satisfied.
Tim, I am not asking someone to oversize me, but rather super size what I believe is an under-sized 2nd floor system. Remember, I've got a 3-ton for the 1st floor, and 2-ton for the 2nd floor. Two of the three contractors felt that the original HVAC contractors got it backwards (they felt the 3-ton unit should have been for the 2nd floor). I am only looking to address this backwards condition.
BTW, the first HVAC contractor I had over didn't evaluate the systems as I asked. Heck, he admitted as he was leaving my home (I was at work, the wife called me) that he didn't even have a working detector on hand to check for refrigerent leaks--yet he "added a couple of pounds of freon".
I suppose I could ignore what the second and third HVAC contractor concluded about the 2 & 3-ton installation being backwards, but what if they are right? The 1st floor cools without effort, and 2nd floor can't cool while running non-stop for 10-days straight. And my asking to super-size the 2-ton unit with something larger is ... wrong? Is it more wrong than a backward install?
"The guy is thinking of both your best interest. He wants you cool and comfortable, and he doesn't want you calling him about sh*ty equipment that burned out durring the first season of operation."
So, the alternative is a combination of premature burnout from running 24x7 for 2-3 months and my having a heat stroke? If he was think about me being cool and not calling him all the time then what I have is not right. I am calling him and multiple other HVAC contractors repeatedly--including el 'moron with the broken refrigerant leak detector.
If the interior temps are not falling below 80ºF at Midnight then I am not keeping cool, I am not comfortable, and I am constantly calling people. How is this the right choice? :) I understand about short-cycling and the early-wear and lack of proper dehunidifying concerns, but how are these better than what I've described?
I am a Yankee, I like it cooler than most 'southerners' I live amongst. I have traditional Summer time heat sources, and non-traditional heat sources that are NOT being taken into consideration. I've got dang near 1-kW worth of heat-producing electronics in the mini home theater, and another 1.5-kW worth of heat producing computer electronics in another room. AM I suppose to believe these were taken into consideration when the track house was built?
If the interior temp isn't falling below 80 at midnight then your existing system is broken or worn out. Try setting up a water spray on the condenser coil, as fine/light as you can arrange.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Ok, took another adventure this morning and in the attic where the refrigerent lines come into a 'box' the tag--which is fairly well hidden by the mastic--reads: 'BVR24 24-A****' 24,000 BTU R-22, 350PSI. Similarly, the basement unit read 'BV124 30-1CN22VER3W' 36,000 BTU R-22, 350PSI.
BTW, there IS something going on up there in the attic. On the left-side of where the refrigerent line comes into this evaporator coil box there is staining, a little condensation, and a portion of the box's wall facing me is cold to the touch while the rest (side walls, etc.) is not.
Now let me go see if I can determine the condensor units outside and trace the 1st floor coil to which unit outside. brb
OK, it does sound like the units are properly connected.The cold/staining you observed on the upstairs unit could be normal (normally the large gas line coming out of the evaporator will be fairly cold, and a little condensation is apt to form on it) or could indicate a problem of some sort in the evaporator (bad expansion valve, blocked airflow, etc). Hard to say from your description.Note that in a properly functioning system, when the system has achieved steady state, the gas line will be cooler, but shouldn't be frosty cold -- may frost when the compressor first starts, but should just be cool to the touch after 5 minutes or so. (You can compare to the downstair lines to see what's "normal".)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Also, if this is the typical down-south install with the air handler in the attic, go up there (very early morning is best, heat wise) and make sure there aren't any major air leaks. Take a roll of foil tape with you to tape up the leaks you find.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
(And turn off lights and electronics you aren't using.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"And turn off lights and electronics you aren't using."
But this is my atypical, non-traditional lifestyle I was getting at. The wife and I are avid HDTV and movie junkies and we use to use our temporary minimute home theater a lot (especially in the cooler months). Its equipped with lots of audio and a three-eyed monster analog (CRT) projector. All of this produces a lot of heat, heat that needs handling.
Additionally, I have my home office and computer room with multiple computers, and other electricity-eating, heat-producing sources that make up my lifestyle. All I am seaking it to not fit a fat guy into an ultra-compact because of all the skinny folks around me like tiny cars. :)
Is there another diary of this cause I'm missing some of your info about the house and from the 30 messages I don't see a couple of the most important considerations.
Steer me to it and I'll read through. A mention of your duct work photo? Leak at filter?
What kind of temperature testing has been done? AC air out temp air in?
I believe in all the details but I was taught to stop the bleeding and clear the airways first.
And you can should get whatever you want if your asking and paying for it,with some minor caveat's you know. Like you don't get a new president with that cool air.
The first HVAC contractor stated the delta was 21ºF. So, if I do not run the system for a day the inside temp will go above 95ºF. But even with it running constantly it has not dropped below 75-76º in a couple of weeks.
I have not been told outside of FHB any reason for not granting me my request. While I acknowledged the potential hazzards, I want to supersize what I believe to be my undersized system. Yet, this seems to be asking for the impossible. And worse, is that nothing contained within the house (peope, electronics, appliances, pet's, etc.) is considered in the heat-load determination.
I would have a commercially trained duct work guy come in and see where you need upgrades.
Then i would look at buying a portable ac unit that I saw at Sam's Club and use it in the rooms that are not cool enough for you.
My 5 ton Carrier gas pack bit the bullit this summer and we have tried to go all summer without AC but the last 2 weeks have been over 99 degrees everyday so we finally sprung for a 5 ton Ruud.
The 13 year old carrier unit has some serious design flaws and way to complicated electronics this was the third compressor to burn up and I have replaced the burners twice and several circuit boards.Fortunately all the previous work was under a home warranty which I let lapse when refinancing the house.
My ac guy is a good friend and he let me use his account to get the Ruud unit at wholesale price(2400$).I delivered and disconnected the old one and he is helping install the new one for free.
He likes the Ruud because its simple and parts are readily available and cheaper.
We are waiting on the connecting duct work to be made up on monday in the commercial shop.Of course it so suppose to hit 102 today and even higher tomorrow.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I looked at the profile and saw the google map ? is that you house and street? Now there's the problem. You forgot to plant the grass. kidding.
The 21 degree is great so that's looking good.
Now to figure out short term to get some relief and then long term to solve the problem.
No doubt you best calculate is working fine and it's saying I'm sweating my arzz off here.
In the short run you have to do what can be done with the overloaded system.
In the long run that's what your gonna address.
So how can you remove a large portion of the load ? It has to be moving the air/load and changing it. If you exhaust it at the upper most ? Power roof vent or top window fan out.
And then look at what it is your replacing it with? temp. Cause it sounds like you have a great heat generator.
What's the temp say at the upper bedroom and at the same time downstairs 1 or 2 floors down. Looking to see the stratification. Does it have basement finished? and that temp if it does.
And if it's one of the new houses shown you should have pretty Good insulation and window package? Yes?
"What's the temp say at the upper bedroom and at the same time downstairs 1 or 2 floors down. Looking to see the stratification. Does it have basement finished? and that temp if it does."
I used Miraflex in the basement and for an unconditioned space it stays around 75ºF while not drywalled yet. The PC room with the PC I am using to write this right now is 78ºF, 73ºF outside and in the attic, and these are the lowest temps. When I went to bed (ahem, sofa) last night, it was 83ºF at 10PM on the 2nd floor, but 75ºF on the 1sr floor.
House received its COO in 2000. The Google satellite photo is out of date. On several occasions I noted the supply and return air temp and it had a 10ºF delta. So, for the plenum to have a 21ºF delta I suspect its losing the rest on its trip from the plenum to the register, and then some additional on the way back to the plenum.
IIRC, the variation between rooms on the 2nd floor is about 6º.
Couple of things . As You are going along Your becoming more and more expert on the fine points of hvac.
I thought there was another thread that had alot of the details of you layout of the house?
Point me at it, I did try a couple of searches but no luck. Just so you don't have to keep clicking in the same info.
The heat load that is being generated, and the loss in the 2 ton system = what the prob is, so in the short run as a test if possible to pull that air out of the 2nd floor to reduce the load.
But with a temp 73 man that's crazy. And you say you get a 10 diff but the tech gets a 21?
And is that 21 on the 2 ton system? separate from the 1st floor system.
Where is the return air on the upstairs? I kind of remember? the thread of some details but can't find it. I did reread to see if it was in this one but? I don't see it.
I'm in SLC,UT and on my place if I don't let it run thru the day and let the set back start at 6 pm set to 75 it takes about 3 hours run. This is with the day temps to 100+. But I have a whole house fan which was our pre AC system. All I have to do is kick it on for about 10 minutes and evac the heat built up in the attic and stratified upstairs and with in an Hour I'm to temp. And this is Probably one of the worst houses by layout to make work. No upstairs return air and only the stairway to facilitate flow.
How many cu' on the second floor(actually 3rd floor with basement)
And by the evening temps your giving that attic is holding heat way to long. What is it's venting con fig?
Sun sets in the West, and the rear wall of the home faces the SW. Along the rear wall (~53') is the width of the formal dining room, the breadth of the kitchen & breakfast rooms, and the length of the family room. All this on the 1st floor, L to R.
The second floor along the rear wall is the master bath suite (bath & closet) and another bedroom (cat room). This only accounts for only 34' because the remainder is consumed by the two-story family room (18').
Also along the rear wall is a daylight, or walkout, basement running the fullt width, and is a footprint of the 1st floor in area.
Family room is open to the second floor. I imagine the family room's heat load is being migrated to the second floor. The foyer, which is along the front wall is also two-stories and I think the same migration of heat load may be occuring. Thoughts?
In addition to the foyer on the 1st floor is the formal living room, foyer, study, and garage. On the 2nd floor its the Master bedroom, another bedroom, and J&J bath and the last bedroom (both above the garage).
All rooms on the 2nd floor have their supply register at the window, and their return at the interior door. Additional supplies are in the master closet, master water closet, and an interior full bath. Hallways, foyer, etc. have nothing. The 2nd floor halls open to the foyer and family rooms below.
Front of home is brick, sides and back are white hardiplank. Shingle roofing of light-mid gray. Basement has owner-installed Miraflex, and is better in cooler temps than second floor even without any cooling. :)
The 1st floor has a basement located 3-ton unit, and the 2nd floor has an attic located 2-ton unit. The 1st floor has about 1326 SqFt, and the 2nd floor 1229 SqFt. Last HVAC contractor used a "safe rulle of thumb of 500SqFt per ton" but said nothing about migrating heat loads.
Foyer and 1st floor hall, breakfast and kitchen have 3/4" hardwood flooring, and carpet everywhere else except baths (tile). Windows are all double-pane (not low-e) double-hung or sealed. No real shading, but basement get's a fraction due to deck, and a fraction of living room and foyer due to two-story porch.
The 21ºF delta was at the plenum. The 10º delta with between the supply and return registers of all rooms. Currently, the high at my home was 93ºF, the attic 96º at the floor and 128ºF at the ridge, and this 2nd floor room (at this PC I just turned on) is 83ºF.
If the AC is dropping the outside air from 93ºF to 83ºF then its as if I have no insulation. Oh, you want volumes, too? I have those figures! The 1st floor is 15,360 CuFt. The 2nd floor is 11,066 CuFt. Baement is about 14,900 CuFt. The attic venting is 5-6 flat pancake openings. No fans.
Want glass surface area (SqFt), too? I measured that as well.
Wow you got some good info there.
I Am surprised at the attic temps, not as bad as i thought.
And I am also surprised by the number of 2nd floor returns which seems good to me.
I am not ? seeing the answer I want. So we are talking about the 2 ton unit and is that the one that got the 21 delta?
even with loss to 10 if I'm drawing 83 degree I should be getting mid 70s.
Now not to say there aren't flaws that are contributing but from the band aid starter some thing isn't computing? We don't have to get to fancy to look at the raw temps to try and determine what is going on. How can we be drawing 83 should be out with ?73 and not be getting movement to where it needs to go? Attic floor 96. "outside air from 93ºF to 83ºF "
Now the reality of what you say is you are dealing with the air in your house and the outside is creating the load, then the ability of your house to deal with the load. At some point your gonna want to change the numbers in the attic but you should be getting cooler by the numbers.
What's the insulation? you said blown fiberglass? How deep and does it have pretty good density or is it really wispy(over processed)?
Also what is the blower cfm on the 2 ton and does it feel like it's putting out good volume? Or is it fairly faint?/wimpy.
It's starting to say the volume of the 2 ton is not what it should be but give me a little more info on the air handler cause I'm seeing to little air which could bring up the 21 diff to produce what appears to be correct but with proper fan speed could be much lower. And what's the filter system on it?
Not saying bigger might be better but I think you should be getting enough out of what you have with some tweaking.
I did put good expensive? insulated blinds on large front bank of windows and 2 large sky lights. Which helps the speed of the build up but if I don't have them closed I can boost by about 10-15 minutes of the whole house fan and it clears all the super heat out. Then AC goes on down. 74 and that's as far as I can stand it. And I can get that if I let it run. It will do that cycling 50/50 on the hour and keep it there ,3 ton. You've got way more Sq' but I will more then out power you with defects.
Presently, it is ~70ºF outside and in my attic. I just turned on one PC (this one) and in this 2nd floor computer room it is 79ºF. Of course, this is a NE facing room, and the coolest room is SE and 4ºF lower. Thermostat is set to 73ºF, but it will never reach that temp at the termostat. Impossible.
"even with loss to 10 if I'm drawing 83 degree I should be getting mid 70s." I think you are forgetting that heat is still being added while the HVAC is attempting to remove it. For instance, if the room temp is 83º then its 87ºF when it reaches the plenum because its being heated on the way back.
Remember, its was 93ºF outside, and if I shut off the AC the temp will climb fast. Of course, the distribution of condition air within a room could be a problem as well. It wouldn't surprise me that a ceiling fan could mix the warm and cool air better.
The insulation in the attic is 12-14" of pink loose Corning fiberglass. I have no idea what the blower CFM rating is, nor how to find that out. The 3rd HVAC contractor suggested the need for an additional return, believing that warm air not being re/moved in the foyer and halls was a big problem.
All windows on front/rear of home with the exception of the study (front, NE) have window treatment designed to block sunlight from entering the room.
Oops, I was wrong. It is presently 68ºF outside and 79ºF in this 2nd floor PC room with one PC on for an hour. I think some window fans would work better right now than the POS AC.
I Have just about enough info just a couple more and and I'm hoping where I'm heading is correct.
Let's kind of set aside the guy that came out and added? R and just for trying to figure this out say that the system is still working but poorly.
Has the system pretty much been running badly from 2000 or has it been marginal and is sliding downhill from there over the years.
Where is the 3 ton system returns? and when all the following of the numbers/temps is it running constant or has it cycled off?
Then the last of some #s When you take these we need them all at the same time.
closest(to plenum) return air temp,closest delivery temp, attic floor temp, outside air temp.
And I guess you don't have the ability to get the in out temp at the plenum? or if you do get them also.
And the filter? system? This is very important. What does it look like and were they just changed?
I Am going to basically throw out the 21 D if it was by the guy that added the charge cause I'll use the rule that he used to do it.But we may just not be sure of ? everything he knew or didn't know and do.
The air handler Brand and model # and I can find it's specs.
The distribution registers upstairs are in the ceiling and wash the windows Yes?
Also originally I was using the 21d in saying that return air 83 +10degree loss to system and ?70 something delivery.
The idea is it would be nice to see if we can find some thing simple that could help it to limp thru this last blast of heat.
Up thread somebody(renosteinke <!----><!----> ) laid out the fault of willynilly adding and that it will require a evac,pressure test and recharge. That is definitely going to be one of the first things in the final cure but for now were trying to see if it's just a bugger in the tubes(joke).
I've got/am getting a list of about 10 for the final cures but I still think what you have should be working. Attic flex insulated? 8" supplies and returns? and are they up (suspended or at and in the insulation?
Get me that info and I'll tell you what I think. I was hoping it was only one Item but it's 3 one of which we are setting aside (the 1st tech). Didn't you post way back some duct/plenum pictures?
Edited 8/15/2007 3:01 pm by ClaysWorld
"Has the system pretty much been running badly from 2000 or has it been marginal and is sliding downhill from there over the years."
Bought house in December 2000. Slept, showered, and hanky-panky only on 2nd floor until 2003 warm season when I moved computing activities from basement to 2nd floor, and in 2004 moved HDTV/movie activies from 1st to 2nd floor. In 2004 an HVAC relocated some refrigerent lines in basement, 2005 "added some freon" to the 2nd floor system, replaced the kickoff cap for 1st floor in 2005, in 2006 the marginal 2nd floor conditions became insufficient, and now are totally incapable even after "adding a couple of pounds of freon" this season.
The 1st floor 3-ton returns are located in the formal living room (near the adjacent foyer) the hallway beside the kitchen-breakfast door to the garage, and in the family room (on a partition wall with the garage). These are large aggregate returns instead of per-room style returns (like what the 2nd floor has).
When I get home this evenings, I'll take temp readins of all rooms, but I have been lectured about using the Fluke 62 Mini that I have been using because some say it only takes surface temp readings and not air readings. I interpret all this that is the walls, ceiling, and floor are XºF then by golly the air [without cooling] will be XºF, too. Otherwise, I'll have to let someone else instruct me how to measure air temps on a per room basis.
"closest(to plenum) return air temp,closest delivery temp, attic floor temp, outside air temp"
You want these from inside the rooms with that have the closet supply & return to the plenum? I can do that, too, when I get home and measure the attic floor and outside temps. It would be cool (no pun intended) if someone made a temp-base unit that could handle 20-30 remote sensors and aggregate them for wireless data connectivity to a PC.
The filters are at the end of the returns at the blower housing. They are changed every two months. Tried every three months, but too much dust being transported. This was marked as evidence of whole-house leakage and duct leakage by HVAC contractor #2 this season.
The 21ºD was the only thing mentioned. The HVAC #1 tech never engaged that the 83ºF temp upstairs was based on the system operating normally, but rather because of low refrigerent. His promise that it would cool better was never proven to be the case. The very next day resulted in no better performance--just more dashed hope. :)
All attic flex duct is suspended until the strike the roof rafters, and then travel down the rafters to the supply registers at the exterior wall openings (windows/doors). All are reported to be 8" in diameter.
I have a bunch of picturs that I posted. Not sure of the thread.
Not would but IS and Is = expensive$
"It would be cool (no pun intended) if someone made a temp-base unit that could handle 20-30 remote sensors and aggregate them for wireless data connectivity to a PC."
The adding freon is a giveaway. And the fact that you have been dealing with filter issues leads me to see these 2 issues as the front end of answers.
With all the time spent already it's time to seal all supply lines thru to distribution/air handler (inspect evaporator for contamination and vac spotless)
and Evac system and repair leak,then recharge using rocket science not wing and a prayer. And insure you get a data sheet on the critical input dated and signed. Paper is so much better then heat when we want cold.
The changed "In 2004 an HVAC relocated some refrigerant lines in basement" are part of the 3 ton system? correct ? So that is not affecting the problem child.(hopefully)
Tell me what you think? about that course of action?
Once that's done then on to tunning up the house issues.
I think that one thing that needs to be done is to check the specs on the two A coils. If indeed the upper and lower condenser units got swapped during install, likely they're mismatched to their A coils.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Ya that would be a good one. It'd also be a pisser after all the grief and something like that.
But it'd also be nice to get such a simple answer.
But having a 3 ton A coil on a 2 ton compressor would likely explain a lot, including the wacky pressure readings that make folks want to keep adding freon.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I didn't interpret this that way, Dan. I took what I was told to mean that they installed a complete 3-ton system into the basement--meaning that the coils and condenser were matched, but just put in the wrong place (basement vs attic).
I'd think the most likely point of mixup would be when connecting the units. (Note: I'm assuming the two condenser units are more or less adjacent to each other.) It would be easy to get the pipes crossed when connecting them.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Agreed, it would be a Murphey's Law kind of thing to accidentally get the refrigerent lines backwards. Ok, I just confirmed that the two condensor units outside are Lennox (but the evaporator coils are Trane!?!) 10 ACB36-11P and 10ACB24-9P.
I then traced the 1st floor evaporator refrigerent lines to the 10 ACB36-11P unit. I take this to mean that the '36' in 10 ACB36-11P is for handline 3-tones, but I could be dead wrong. In hot air, so to speak. :)
But how does one do this? Evidentally three HVAC contractors were not interested enough to make that kind of hard determination. Maybe I should try three more HVAC contractors?
"The changed "In 2004 an HVAC relocated some refrigerant lines in basement" are part of the 3 ton system? correct ? So that is not affecting the problem child.(hopefully)"
The lines for both units were changed. Ok, so someone FINALLY told me that the 1st floor heat loads for two-story rooms is migrated to the 2nd floor's total heat load. That would mean I have a 3-ton 1st floor unit to cover 800-850 SqFt and a 2-ton 2nd floor unit to cool 1600 SqFt.
HVAC #2 offered to fix what they believed to be a monster leakage problem in both the home's exterior shell (blower door test), and within the AC/heating distribution system (supply & return registers). The offered to fix this problem for $4K, but the quote was void of any detail--no way to hold them accountable.
I went back and asked them to please provide detail on all work to be done to fix the leakages and 1.5 weeks later they came back with the same quote. I asked a 2nd time, and the second time got the same original detailess quote again. That is when my trust in both their honor system and their energy-auditing methodology began to fade.
The 3rd HVAC contractor came back with a quote of $5K to install a 13 SEER 3-ton cooling unit, 90kBTu furnace and seal ducts and add 1xsupply/return for additional airflow. Only $5K. And this is what he determined to be a properly sized unit and not one 'that I'm asking for'.
So, the duct sealing and additional supply/return and to Add 1-ton of cooling is $5K. How about someone just come in and add a 1-ton AC (only) unit into the attic and install the 2xsupply/return and have it target the two rooms of interest (Home theater and computer rooms)?
Edited 8/18/2007 7:08 am ET by Nuke
Getting back to a couple of questions/ answers.
When things are ruining normally(badly) has the 3 ton unit come up to it set temp and stooped running while the up/2ton unit runs and runs?
I think so many factors are adding up to ? no answers. Lets keep it as simple as possible.
#1Can we look at 2 ton leakage? bad/ok/good. Must end at good. ( this is added) The leakage I'm refering to is air leakage of the system.
#2 2ton system status -properly evaced/leak fixed and charged. That is the starting point for that system.(added) this leakage is the R-22 leakage.
In the end if the system is running properly and it won't cure the cooling then on to bigger is better and stuff.
You can not get past the first two before you go to any others.
In a column of house we have(I'm guessing hight from basement to roof ridge)31' with a temp spread of 75 at basement to ridge 130. Does this sound about correct.
SLC,Ut this summer is in 2nd place for the # of days at or above 100= 17 so far. And I am tickled pink with my 16 seer vspd 3 ton ac and vspd furnace. Elec bill just came in for July Aug and its 120$ I Am sooooooo happy with that.
Edited 8/18/2007 10:52 am by ClaysWorld
"When things are ruining normally(badly) has the 3 ton unit come up to it set temp and stooped running while the up/2ton unit runs and runs?"
Yes, all the time. I rarely have a case in which the 1st floor 3-ton unit is incapable of cooling to the target temp, but there have been rare occasions. For instance, if I turn on the ceiling fan in the 2-story family room the warm air is pushed to the floor and the cool air forced up. Keep that up all day on a hot day and it begins to struggle around 4-6PM.
"#1Can we look at 2 ton leakage? bad/ok/good. Must end at good. ( this is added) The leakage I'm referring to is air leakage of the system."
I have yet to get the specific details of the leakage identified. Verbal is one thing, someone pointing a finger and verbalizing (identifying to me) is another. Getting something in writing is impossible with 3xHVAC contractors thus far. How should I go about determining myself?
"#2 2ton system status -properly evaced/leak fixed and charged. That is the starting point for that system.(added) this leakage is the R-22 leakage."
Show me a capable HVAC person willing to show up with his capabilities and I'll let them determine that. HVAC #1 showed up to add refrigerant without the ability to check for a refrigerant leak. #2 HVAC showed up for an energy audit, which was independent as to whether or not the AC units were working properly, but his job may not have made him qualified to do so.
The #3 HVAC simply did not do anything other than measure the floor's length and width, round the product of the figures, become puzzled at the shear size, recommend adding a return duct, and seal the supply/return registers and plenum openings.
Out of three different heating and cooling companies, not a one of them were willing, qualified, or equipped to check for e refrigerant leak. This is Georgia, everything is done by the nose. :)
I guess I can begin calling other HVAC companies on Monday. I'll specifically request that the person show up with a means to determine refrigerant leakage at the evaporator coils, along the exposed refrigerant lines, and at the condenser unit outside.
I am willing to remove and replace the lose-fill fiberglass insulation in the attic with spray-on expanding-foam insulation as I understand the benefits of it sealing ceiling joist cavities and preventing air-flow through construction openings (in addition to its thermal performance). Its a luxury in GA, and rates are usually twice that of the North.
As for other parts of heat infiltration such as the family room's roofline, SW-facing exterior wall with its 21 windows and 2 doors (with windows in them) simply is an
Also by now you know that they just can't stick on an additional ton of performance.
"So, the duct sealing and additional supply/return and to Add 1-ton of cooling is $5K. How about someone just come in and add a 1-ton AC (only) unit into the attic and install the 2xsupply/return and have it target the two rooms of interest (Home theater and computer rooms)?"
That's the basis of System.
And on the heat side? what kind of comfort were you getting in winter on the coldest of cold?
Cause if you upgrade other then cabinet sizing I' don't think your going to be needing 90,000 on the second system.
Are they gas or electric?
"And on the heat side? what kind of comfort were you getting in winter on the coldest of cold?"
Swiss cheese home. I had a little too much airflow in the Winter at the token fireplace, which I have since sealed. Any attempt to heat the first floor results in heating of the second floor. Rarely need to run the second floor gas furnace.
I tell people I am hot, and they want to upgrade my gas furnace. Nuts.
At 2:30PM Eastern time today (8/18/07) I did a lot of temperature measurements. And the national Weather Service reporting my zipcode temp to be 95ºF.
=========Basement=======
Sub-DINING faces SW & SE. Interior/exterior wall temps are 80º/113º.
Sub-LIVING faces SE & NE. Interior wall temps are 81º and 74º. Earthen exterior.
Sub-KITCHEN faces SW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 75º/111º. Partial deck shading.
Sub-BREAKFAST faces SW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 76º/103º. Partial deck shading.
Sub-FAMILY faces SW & NW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 73º/114º and 72º/101º
Sub-STUDY & Sub-FOYER not measured. All exterior surfaces earthen.
=========1st Floor=======
FOYER faces NE. Interior/exterior wall temps are 80º/94º. Supply is disconnected.
LIVING ROOM faces SE & NE. Interior/exterior wall temps are 77º/104º (SW) &77º/95º (NE), supply is 56ºF (nice), return is 71ºF.
DINING ROOM faces SW & SE. Interior/exterior wall temps are 77º/108º (SW) & 77º/104º. Supply is 61ºF (nice)
KITCHEN faces SW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 74º/108º, supply is 56ºF (nice)
BREAKFAST faces SW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 76º/114º, supply is 57ºF (nice), return 73ºF.
FAMILY room faces SW & NW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 76º/114º (SW), 76º/108º (NW). Supply is 57ºF (nice), and its return is 71ºF. This is my fave room for cooling.
=========2nd Floor=======
PC ROOM faces NE. Interior wall temp 80ºF, 100-105ºF exterior wall temp, supply air temp is 81ºF, and 80ºF at the return. At this time of day the ambient room's air temp is actually cooling the air flowing from the supply to the return. <shaking head>
HT ROOM facesNW. Interior wall temp is 79ºF, exterior wall temp is 100ºF, supply temp is 87ºF, and return air temp is 80ºF.
CAT ROOM faces SW. Interior/exterior wall temps are 80º/108ºF, and supply/return 87º/89º.
MASTER BATH faces SW. Wall temps same as Cat room. 83ºF supply (no return).
Edited 8/18/2007 3:22 pm ET by Nuke
I couldn't remember my password and I am forced to now use the wife's PC on the 1st floor. Why? Because the 2nd floor AC unit is apparently no longer working.
When I was taking those temp readings at 2:3PM EST today, I noticed that the heat given off by the 3-ton condensor unit was present, but no heat was given off by the 2-ton unit which had been running all day. I thought it was my imagination.
Well, its 86ºF outside, all of the house's exterior surface temps are ~85ºF, and coincidentally all of the 2nd floor interior temps are also 85ºF with no air, to the touch being felt coming out of the supply registers. The unit (blower) making its normal hum in the attic, but heat isn't being removed.
If no heat is being blown away at the condensor, then no heat is being removed from the returns at their convergent location (plenum, evaporator coil). Essentially, the 2nd floor system has been running for hours with the end results being the inside 2nd floor temps the same as the outside temp.
Since the 2nd floor condensor unit is running, and its blower is huming along, I'm thinking something in terms of refrigerant or evaporator coils. Can a condensor unit's fan run without the compressor actually compressing? I will not be calling anyone on emergency, but rather will have someone show up on Monday.
Likely the overpressure cutout on the unit has tripped (from all that extra freon). Check for a rubber "goof plug" on the unit somewhere and press it in to reset the cutout.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
It's still quite possible that there is a leak in the freon system. Even after adding a couple of pounds a couple of times, he still had a good 21* Delta T across the evaporator.SamT
Nick,Register at these two forums and see if they can reccomend someone in your area who can check for, find, and fix any freon leaks, AND, who can properly fill your system.http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1http://www.hvacmechanic.com/forums/forums.htmI don't know the rules in your locality, but DIY AC systems maintenance is not that hard. So check out this forum.http://www.diychatroom.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17SamT
Edited 8/18/2007 11:14 pm by SamT
Attic Temps ?????????? I don't see any from the exhustive listing.
Temps on the 3 ton look nice.
Strange, I thought I posted them. I know I posted them somewhere. Since I do not have access to my personal computers I am pulling this from memory--so they may be off a degree ot two. IIRC, they were 106/128/140ºF in the attic. That would be attic ladder (representing the lowest point in the attic), near the top of the plenum, and at the ridge.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=93345.89
Unless I'm not seeing it.
Lets say pc room is return air at 80 and out is 80. That doesn't sound so good, but if you look up to the attic and say the system is leaking some of the 140 in to the supply side it looks pretty good to me.
Why would I say 140 which is at the ridge? Cause there is no sign of supply for the turtle vents which is causing a draw down of the higher air temp to the supply side of the air handler or reverse flow. Don't pick it apart on tech details just ment as a general condition of what is happening.
Now this shot is a place I was looking for to use one of these(see below gable picture)
View Image
View Image
But none of that will do any good if the system is not as posted before.
#1Can we look at 2 ton leakage? bad/ok/good. Must end at good. ( this is added) The leakage I'm refering to is air leakage of the system.
#2 2ton system status -properly evaced/leak fixed and charged. That is the starting point for that system.(added) this leakage is the R-22 leakage.
The #1+#2 from http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=93345.85
My house is basically three boxes attached side-by-side with the smaller box containing the garage elevation--and in which you posted the picture of. Here is an attic view of the other two boxes with identical elevations. I've circled the ridge vents.
Today's anticipated temp outside will be 102ºF. Last night it was 81ºF on the 2nd floor, but air was blowing out the vents at a slightly lower temp.
I've left messages for another three HVAC contractors asking them to call me back when they can (no emergencies), but tis the season to actually turn away business. If anything, I'll move forward with acquiring one of those portable units and see if I can 'boost' the overall 2nd floor performance.
I am more concerned with driving the 2nd floor undersized system into distruction since we know it continues to leak refrigerant. Good thing work is keeping me busy during the ady as its keeping my mind off this POS home when not at home.
And speaking of the weather, those lawns are burning. They already went through the yellow due to drought, and now have turned brown. Spot fires are starting to show up again.
Edited 8/22/2007 5:48 am ET by Nuke
How many vents do you have there? Doesn't look like nearly enough ventillation.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I saw the vents from scanning the original post and I believe he also said there were 6 total but where I look at is show me what is suppling those vents ? Soffit vents or? It looks like they don't have a supply to create the flow. Or a flow and the corresponding temps are confirming a lack of flow/exchange.
(Added) http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=28392956-32FF-4FF2-B0FB-3911C80E4ED9&frames=no and many other shots of the attic don't show reasonable supply venting of the roof vents.
Edited 8/22/2007 11:16 am by ClaysWorld
Yeah, at best the venting seems marginal. No signs of chutes for the soffit vents, and the rooftop vents seem to be few and far between. Probably the only thing keeping the attic cool is the cold air escaping from the AC ductwork.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Well, the wife got back into town on Monday, but went straight to work--until Midnight. She repeated the same thing last night. In fact, we talked on the telephone about 2PM, and not beforehand to warn her to shut the upstairs unit off if it seems to drop in cooling, stops blowing, makes strange noise, etc.
So, when she called my workplace from her workplace she informed me she kept hearing a strange heavy runbling noise from both outside near the dining room (just outside if the condensor units), and in the attic. Seems the unit iced over again, but this time might have also caused the compressor in the condensor to go along with it.
She shut the system off, took a shower in 83ºF bathroom, and went to work. I just got home an its now 90-91ºF upstairs, 100º outside ambient, and 111/126/138ºF in the attic (floor, top of plenum, at ridge).
Tomorrow, I am expecting another HVAC contractor for which I am taking the day off. They asked for morning or afternoon appointment and I naturally wished to play Hell's Advocate and said afternoon. Misery loves company--in Hell. :) What was it that Hank Hill said, "feel the heat, not the meat."
BTW, there are soffet vents, and above the front of the garage is a cubby hole where I found styrofoam forms that are meant to allow air to travel from soffet to ridge. I am not sure they are not blocked, though, in the attic. Wouldn't surprise me.
You should have one of those styrofoam chutes every second or third joist, and a soffit vent (or continuous soffit venting) below it. The rooftop vents should be about 4-5 feet apart for the full length of the roof.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I main length of roofline is about 32' and there are five of those small turtle ridge vents. There are soffet vents about every 4-5' feet or so. There are soffet vents on the section that has a ceiling on rafter, too. I just took some pictures, but the wife's computer doesn't have the means to post-process.
No, I am not going upstairs.
How come I didn't see soffit vent chutes in any of your previous pictures?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I cannot answer that. BTW, its 6:23AM and 13º warmer on my 2nd floor (86ºF) than outside (73ºF).
I thought I had read something in the past about a whole-house fan that essentially acted like a large centralized vent fan, which drew outdoor air in and indoor air into the attic.
And on a side note ... if my two systems were indeed installed backwards and the two-ton unit should have been installed for the 1st floor, then how come I have not had problems with short-cycling, moisture building, mold, or premature wear on that 3-ton unit, and how is it I can enjoy the heck out of it and not achieve the same over-size conditoon on my 2nd floor?
I thought I had read something in the past about a whole-house fan that essentially acted like a large centralized vent fan, which drew outdoor air in and indoor air into the attic.
Almost any home center sells these.
And on a side note ... if my two systems were indeed installed backwards and the two-ton unit should have been installed for the 1st floor, then how come I have not had problems with short-cycling, moisture building, mold, or premature wear on that 3-ton unit, and how is it I can enjoy the heck out of it and not achieve the same over-size conditoon on my 2nd floor?
Put your first floor ducting in the attic, then see what changes happen.
It would be interesting to post pictures of the basement ductwork.
Mold can happen, but the moisture content has to be pretty high. It is more common for mold issues due to leaky condensate drains than just airside issues in the typical residential setting.
Almost 6PM and the 2nd floor will go no higher than 83ºF today even though its 95ºF outside (103ºF HI). #4 couldn't make it today and I got lucky and caught someone from HVAC #1 prowling my neighborhood. No, I didn't rip his head off, but I recognized him from 2-3 years ago.
He provided a free service call. He had some gadget with him, but couldn't find the leak. Not at the condensors outside, along the exposed portions of the line in the basement, or in the attic, but believes there is a leak. He charged the system again, which is providing minimal relief (good for a montrh?).
Before he left, I threw out the question of super sizing a customer and was surprised at his answer. Not only would they do it for a customer AND warranty the equipment, but they would require me to sign off on a no-alteration condition. What this meant was even if I came back as it being too cold they would ignore me.
But, they do it and he has done it to his own home. He broke out their installed price tables, which to my confirmation showed a whopping $450 price difference between a 3 and 4 ton system. The difference between 40kBTU and 100kBTU furnace was pennies. His caveat was that they would need to upgrade refrigerant lines because what I have is insufficient for even a 3-3.5 ton system.
With this in mind, I have sent another email back to HVAC #3 asking him to take my money, but meet my request. Hist quote included sealing ducts. Both of these would be to also add a pair of additional ducts. Oh, brother can you spare a dime?
OMG, its thundering outside!!!!!!
Well..? How goes it?
Getting through it. With the day's highs more amicable (88-90º instead of 96-100º), a recharged system, and little to no use of the 2nd floor its been manageable.
I just got a new system installed in a project yesterday. I don't see what the issue is getting your #2 replaced now. Things are slowing back down with the temps down. Maybe pursue it again? Or gonna live in with no 2nd floor?
I the last week I had two no shows. Well, one no show and one no return call after he returned my first call and left a voice message. HVAC sales people seem to be like doctors and desntist (and bankers), and its at their convenience only.
Curious, what exactly did you have done, the cooling capacity, etc., and the price (if yuo do not mind my asking)?
Edited 9/10/2007 5:45 am ET by Nuke
Finishing a downstairs that was poorly covered by the upstaris unit. Called on Fri Am to schedule. Used him before and kind of know each other. He was at the project before 12:00 to eval. Install started Saturday @ 10:30. Out by 1:30. Installed 1.5 ton Ruud w/10yr warranty, airhandler, ran ducts; few minor odds & ends will get done today. Cost $3900.
What kind of prices they giving you?
IIRC, the quotes ranged from $3800 for a 2-ton replacement unit to $6K for a 4-ton.
Let's just say that there are no HVAC contractors going hungry, and I am certain they are eating very well considering what the components are going for online. I would not doubt there is at least a $2K gross profit in the lowest quote, and more in the highest.
Even the 'little guyy' contractors are becoming big business. One contractor I go buy on a back road while on the way to Costco went from one truck two years ago to at least six trucks at the start of this year--all of it out of his home.
And now they are making it easier for you to afford everyone's high prices by offering you financing. I can't wait for the feds to remove the hazzardous rating from refrigerants, and along with it the licensing requirements that are keeping DIYers and the big boxes from circumventing folks on this old technology.
I'm glad they aren't going hungry. That sucks when you can't afford insurance or food for the kids. It's expensive to run a business, and crawling around in 130 degree attics sucks too.
My bill incidentally was around 5K for a 1 1/2 ton ac unit, and a high eff american standard furnace. Some new electric and ductwork in a 40's cape house (bungalow). Converted from a gravity furnace with no AC.
Just for perspective my 5ton gas pack failed this summer and I replaced it about 3 weeks ago with a Rheem.
Cost me 2400$ for the unit I picked it up from my H&A guys supplier and he helped me set it in.
Paid an extra 200$ for his duct guy to comeout and make me a a return and supply connectors, material and labor.Well worth the money as the transitions were skewed and watching him do in 2 hrs what I did not have the right tools or feel for was well worth it.
Now the reason I got this at cost is I land the H & A guy about 5 or more jobs a year and he knows I will come and help him if he needs my skills or trailer.
ANDYSZ2
PS I have enjoyed this thread and have gained some useful insight.WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I have no problem with HVAC folks making money. As I've said, owning a knife does not make one a surgeon .... nor can you achieve expertise by reading a book. There's a reason it's called a SKILLED trade. When a price is 'too good to be true,' I figure the guy either had poor judgment ... or is cutting corners. In either case, I don't want him near my house. Tho OP seems to have some real problems .... the kind for which there is no quick fix. It is very possible that the original SYSTEM was poorly designed. he will need more than a 'shake and bake' seminar trained 'technician' to sort things out. Ever notice that no one ever brags about having the cheapest lawyer, cheapest surgeon, drive the cheapest car, or live in the poorest neighborhood? I really fail to understand the pride some folks take in finding the 'cheapest guy' for other purposes.
Nor do I, when I can feel comfortable about the person earning the money. Unfortunately, no one locally is interested in doing the right thing, but rather making the quick sale.
And that being said, I still find that the technology is surprisingly high considering the length it has been around.
Mark, crawling around the attic at 130ºF? You are talking about everyone else's home and not mine. Out of six different companies, only one would come out after 9AM, because they wanted it cool, and even then its 16-18 foot high attic space (no crawling around). Your hardship scenario doesn't apply to me or my case.
And I am about to pay for my own insurance-and have decided kids are out of my ability to afford. :) How can I justify affording a new AC AND kids?
The point is, if you are paying a company to do the work, they are paying all their own insurance, social security taxes, workers comp, salaries, vehicle payments and maintenance, showroom/shop space, etc. It's expensive to run. Too bad you haven't found one you can use.
I bet they still don't do the install by the book at those prices :)
That's my point. They are all charging relatively the same amount, and yet I am suppose to believe they are ALL delivering the same high-quality service? That there is no such thing as a bad installer or service provider?
That is what sucks about the HVAC industry.
The customer, shopping based on price, believes that Contractors A, B and C all follow the same guidelines and will install the systems properly... but that isn't the case in reality.
Customers generally have the belief that there isn't much involved in designing, servicing or installing HVAC systems, so why is the work so expensive?
Then there are those people such as builders that look to maximize their profits and only seek HVAC work at the lowest price, hoping the system will function for that first year.
There are a whole bunch of people in the "I'm not gonna be here for long, so I don't want to spend any money" group.
Unfortunately, there is a wide range of conditions in which an HVAC system will heat or cool in general, but there is a very narrow range where that system will function properly and as efficiently as possible. Most customers do not know the difference at first, but they know the difference when something is fixed right.
The industry will not get better as it is marketed as an "easy money" career by those "tech schools" where you get a "degree" in 6 months.
Hope it works better this time around.....
"The 21ºF delta was at the plenum. The 10º delta with between the supply and return registers of all rooms"Fix that first.IIRC, 12000 BTUs = 1 ton of AC. In that case, you're losing a ton (11820.6 btu) of AC capacity in your ducts at 1000CFM air flow and 11* loss.See attachment. Adjust numbers in light yellow cells to suit.SamT
This is great how come it takes you 2 min to get it and it takes this idiot(me) 2 days to get it out.
The last bit I am trying to get is the filter status.
If at some point there were no filters ,say at startup 7 years ago perhaps that evaporator got contaminated and that would explain If it's the case of good D but poor volume causing large temp drop over distance in hot environment(attic).
Yes before that is duct leak, but that I hope is ruled out. If not that a big part of it as you say so accurately.
And then on the list if any way possible to get the 3 ton into the 2 ton return air.
If the coils are contaminated enough to restrict airflow then they'll ice up in any realistic operating environment and the airflow will go to zilch pretty quickly. If you're getting reasonable airflow and a steady drip from the condensate line you can assume that this hasn't happened.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
And then on to last but not least at 400cfm per ton we eliminate duct loss/filter blockage/evap flow and ?
Matching motor speed to air handler. Say 3 speed miswired to low.
Just hoping to get to an easy cure but it doesn't look good.
My 60" hoses aren't reaching to Georgia.
Nuke,I think you are approaching this wrong. Here's what I would do.Get duct mastic and fiberglass tape and seal every duct connection.Get sheetrock and foam to make airtight enclosures for the damn can lites. Foam all attic penetrations also.Blow 8" of cells in attic.Double insulate all ducts in attic.Close up the open bay window.Change to CF lites.Plant some shade trees.Install solar storm windows.Check and fix all weatherstripping.Insulate water heater.Clean ac coils, inside and outside.KK
Central NC - 106 last Friday
Inside - thermostat 74 --- auctual - 75 mid day --- feels like 70 compared to similiar standard construction homes - almost 0 radiated heat getting to the flesh....far greater comfort
4600 sq ft. daylight well windowed, 2 door insulated basement (only 40% is underground), main and upper floors....... 1 - 2 ton unit running the main floor and basement, 1 - 1.5 ton running the upper floor.......yes a total of 3.5 ton for 4600 sq ft and the units only ran nonstop from 3:00 until 4:45 then went back to their typical cycling.
Super sealed house....gently push the downstairs door against the casing but not closed....go upstairs and fairly quickly open a door and the one downstairs latches from the pressure change.
Metal Roof, radiant bearier paint over the osb topped by 1/2 polyiso thermal break, cheap fiberglass in the walls, 6 1/2 cases of caulk, glued and taped all joints, low-e windows glazing....base double pane units.
Nothing super fancy here except extreme attention to detailed weather sealing and lots of heat reflective materials bottom up.
My total utilities last month were under $200 and will be under $240 this month as compaired to a friends house in the same neighborhood......3100 sq ft. 3 - 3 ton units and utilities in excess of $600 last month and never an afternoon under 82 inside.
I repeat......Radiant Bearier, Thermal Break and air tight........
Pedro loves ice cycles on his mane........
This is the best answer so far! Insulate, insulate, insulate!! Make the house fit the unit!
I actually considered trying to find someone to come to my home, vacuum out all of that blown fiberglass insulation, and use something like Icynene (sp) or Corbond spray-on foam insulation to both insylation and seal openings in the joist cavities.
Of the three HVAC contractors I've spoken to this season, none of them know of anyone that can remove existing insulation and or apply new insylation. While I think I can find someone to put the spray-on expnding foam insulation, I need to find someone capable of removing what is there.
It can be done with a yard blower with the vacuum feature. Biggest problem is catching the "out put". There was a message about someone who had made his own giant bags, worked well from what we could see. Bigger units are not the answer, reducing heat transfer is the first thing to do. Covers you for heating and cooling running costs.
I'm not saying you should turn the stuff all the time. But when you're sweltering it should be a no-brainer to reduce the load on the AC any way you can.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"I'm not saying you should turn the stuff all the time. But when you're sweltering it should be a no-brainer to reduce the load on the AC any way you can."
I have! I have not used the mini home theater, and its completely unplugged. Only one PC upstairs is used in the present condition, and its shut off after checking email/forums, etc. I am no longer sleeping in a bedroom, but rather moved myself downstairs. How much more can I do?
Seriously, buy a window unit.
No! You can't be serious! Why not just solve the problem?
> How much more can I do?Cool off. My guess is that the AC guys around you are up to their eyebrows with work. When they talk to you they realize you're a piece of work and will be a royal PITA to do a job for. Why should they work for you when other folks will actually be grateful for their help?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"My guess is that the AC guys around you are up to their eyebrows with work. When they talk to you they realize you're a piece of work and will be a royal PITA to do a job for. Why should they work for you when other folks will actually be grateful for their help."
Who said I wouldn't be grateful? And how am I being a PITA? I offer a blank check and its refused. Boy, I'd like that kind of pain on my job. :)
You and your wife put out about 400-450 BTU/hr each. Get out of the house and stay out. That should make a huge difference.
Dave is right, AC guy is also right assuming he has done the sizing calcs correctly.
If you are still bound and determined to spend some money and get a little cooler until the current heat wave is over - buy a window unit and shove it in the bedroom window or whatever room you think is too hot with the door closed.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Only the last (of three) HVAC companies that came over actually measured anything, and that was so 'rough' in measurement as to be a concern of its own. BTW, I spent the morning with measuring tape in hand (along with pen and pad) and measured every room in 3-dimensions. I can calculate square and cubic footage down to the inch. Now I need to go get that heat-load program and key it into it.
he ain't gonna super-size me
He's probably booked solid with repair calls as is, most of which will be no a/c at all. That's not likely going to leave much schedule time to just add on to working equipment. That, and it's never just as easy as more compressor. You need more coil, too. Probably need a bigger airhandler, then better/different-sized ducts . . .
Likely a tough time to have a "snowball" effect <g>.
A bit like asking a CPA in April if they can come audit your balanced books.
"he ain't gonna super-size me
He's probably booked solid with repair calls as is, most of which will be no a/c at all. That's not likely going to leave much schedule time to just add on to working equipment. That, and it's never just as easy as more compressor. You need more coil, too. Probably need a bigger airhandler, then better/different-sized ducts . . . "
And I am asking for a new 2nd floor complete install. That means new evap coils, new compressor, new handler (plenum), and new/additional ductwork.
The standards for residential air conditioning are all based on an 80* indoor temperature. Once you go below that, all of the SEER ratings become meaningless.
Sizing a unit to cool on the hottest day of the year will result in a unit that is grossly oversized for the rest of the season. That results in high utility bills and excess moisture because the unit won't run long enough to remove the moisture.
Going from a 2.5T unit to a 4T unit would require major duct changes, and your existing air handler would need to move the additional air.
I just did some repairs on an attic system, changing two fittings and installing a media filter assembly with a gasketed door. The two supply registers went from 120 CFM before changes each to 165 CFM each after changes and the single return went from 127 CFM to 199 CFM. I removed typical low bid hack residential work (what the builder will pay for) and replaced it with what should have been done (to fix the customer complaint). Proper duct design matters.
As I have said before, if your duct install is garbage, and if there are air leaks *especially* in the return in an attic system, your HVAC system will *not* work right.
You ... Actually know your Subject Matter .. !!!!Thanks .. !!!
I just did some repairs on an attic system, changing two fittings and installing a media filter assembly with a gasketed door. The two supply registers went from 120 CFM before changes each to 165 CFM each after changes and the single return went from 127 CFM to 199 CFM. I removed typical low bid hack residential work (what the builder will pay for) and replaced it with what should have been done (to fix the customer complaint). Proper duct design matters.
How do you find someone that can do this? Seems like I'm surrounded by low-bid hacks and when you tell them you want a system done right they double thier bid and try to give you the exact same b.s. system.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
How do you find someone that can do this? Seems like I'm surrounded by low-bid hacks and when you tell them you want a system done right they double thier bid and try to give you the exact same b.s. system.
I don't really have an answer here. I can shed some light on the hows and whys of your problem, though.
More often than not, most people in the market for HVAC work are looking for the lowest price.
Contractors know that potential customers are price shopping at best, or worst, looking for information from a "pro" so their "buddy" can do it for cheaper. Therefore, the contractor doesn't want to give out any information that can be used by the competition verbally or on the bid sheet. The industry practice of "free estimates" means the contractor isn't going to spend any more time than necessary on that bid sheet.
That leaves the customer to make a decision on limited (or no) real information- just a price. The customer believes that the "professional" contractors are all bidding the job "done right", but we all know that isn't true because there aren't any meaningful job specifications to formulate a bid.
Heck, there really aren't any enforceable standards for the industry as a whole. That's why California has efficiency testing requirements on system replacements. The government knows the companies are hacking it in because the builders don't pay enough to do it right, so the homeowner gets the shaft. The government also knows that a properly installed system is as efficient as it can be, saving the customer money and lowering electrical demands, and the only way to achieve those goals is through legislation because, given a choice, most builders and customers won't pay the premium to do it right the first time.
The cheap mentality was the driving force behind the 13 SEER requirements. Air conditioning consumes the most electricity in the USA, but no one would pay the extra money for the more efficient unit until the higher standard was mandated by the federal government. More efficient AC units means less demand for electricity.
Then there is the whole issue of actually installing the HVAC equipment (especially air conditioners) properly and to manufacturers' specification.
Adding insult to injury, the techs actually in the field are usually under the gun because the boss limits the number of hours for specific tasks- like 4 hours to change out an air conditioner (2 per day on a changeout crew)- but charges the customer enough money to do the job right.
The residential market is brutal because there are so many people out there doing the work and the builders are dictating the prices in new construction.
One of the biggest drawbacks in the HVAC industry is the most hacked in POS system will still heat or cool, just not very well or very efficiently. Only when it "doesn't work" is there a problem. Customers shopping for price don't care, and the technical aspects that make an installation work well will overwhelm all but the engineering types.
Unfortunately, your best way to find someone that can *really* do HVAC right is to ask around- especially if you can find a friend that has similar issues, but had them fixed. Then check other references from that company.
The other way is to educate yourself about what it takes to do HVAC right, and ask the right questions when you solicit bids. An informed customer will scare away the hack outfits.
"How do you find someone that can do this? Seems like I'm surrounded by low-bid hacks and when you tell them you want a system done right they double thier bid and try to give you the exact same b.s. system."
IMG, I thought I was the only one willing to recognize this condition. :)
How do you find someone that can do this? Talk to your most well established local energy star certifier (DOE energy star website to locate) these guys know who the good building science HVAC installers are and they have no legal reason not to share their recommendations as the Building Inspectors do. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
You might try asking these guys:http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/I make the assumption that guys who post at sites like that (and here) take pride in their work.
"The standards for residential air conditioning are all based on an 80* indoor temperature. Once you go below that, all of the SEER ratings become meaningless."
This consumer doesn't really care about SEER ratings. This consumer is spending hundreds of dollars every month with 83-85ºF indoor temps with a questionably-sized unit. While I DO appreciate everyone's response here (seriously, I do), I am amazed that no one considers a case in which the bare minimum might have been installed in cookie-cutter homes to minimize costs on the contractor's part.
When was the last time a contractor for a track-builder tried not to minimize their costs and cheaping out on materials and capacity?
...I am amazed that no one considers a case in which the bare minimum might have been installed in cookie-cutter homes to minimize costs on the contractor's part...
I *have* mentioned this before.
In residential construction, all mechanical systems are built to the absolute minimum because that is what the tract home builder is willing to pay for. I don't think I am going out on a limb when I state that homebuyers *normally* don't give a rats a$$ about the HVAC system when they look at the models or used homes for sale... unless the system doesn't click on at the thermostat.
If they did, the garbage that passes for HVAC systems in residential construction would cease.
But, that isn't the case because the homebuyers can't get past the paint colors, stainless appliances, granite countertops, crown moulding and landscaping... everything above the drywall that can be easily fixed or updated, not the important stuff below it.
Subcontractors on a tract home project are *not* in the drivers seat because the builder dictates the bids. The subs must do the job within that budget in order to make a profit. Yes, that means installing the cheapest materials possible and cutting every corner. A tract home subcontractor *can't* do any different and turn a profit.
The big builders know *exactly* how long it takes to frame, rough plumbing,electrical, HVAC, roof it, trim it... and they know what the materials cost.
On bigger jobs, the builders will ask for a re-bid a few months in because the subs should have the models down pat, and should be able to do it for even less due to gains in efficiency. The retail home price, however, does not come down to match.
If the subs want to do the job, they do whatever it takes- there is always someone else out there that will try to do it for less. That will not change until every sub out there wakes up and realizes he is being screwed over while the builder rakes it in.
I have seen the pictures of your duct system. That mess needs to be fixed. I bet you have at least 10% of the total blower capacity leaking past the gap where the filter slides in, and the air conditioner *is not*, no matter how big it is, designed to cool 120*+ attic air. All those flex runs tied up high are exposed to temperatures at least 15* hotter than if the same run was laid on top of the ceiling (stick your head up there and check it for yourself).
I would be surprised if, based on a load calculation, that you need anything larger than a 2.5 ton unit for your second floor.
That 10% leakage past the filter probably translates to a 20%+ loss in total btu capacity. Poor quality ductwork can easily eat up 30% of the available airflow before duct leakage is accounted for. An improperly charged air conditioner can't deliver the btu's it is supposed to (either under or over charged- same difference).
Unless a load calculation shows otherwise, a bigger unit will *not* fix your problems. It may mask them, but it won't fix them.
It is probably no just for track builders. In 79 I built a custom home.It is on a hillside. 2 story. First floor is SOG. the front and 1/2 of each side is at grade level. The back is under ground about 4ft.The first floor is LR, DR, Kitchen with 2 doors and lots of windows.I probably tried a dozen different HVAC contractors until I got one that would say anything but "BTW, we will stick a couple of vents in the ceiling for the 'basement'"..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"That 10% leakage past the filter probably translates to a 20%+ loss in total btu capacity. Poor quality ductwork can easily eat up 30% of the available airflow before duct leakage is accounted for. An improperly charged air conditioner can't deliver the btu's it is supposed to (either under or over charged- same difference)."
When the auditing HVAC company made their conclusion, I was doubting their word. But, in this day and age why would anyone be willing to enter into a business arrangement for $4K, not be provide a single aspect of evidence that they did anything, and then move forward with the business transaction. They could not describe anything in lamen's terms or detail in complex terminology. Its was a mystery.
"I would be surprised if, based on a load calculation, that you need anything larger than a 2.5 ton unit for your second floor."
Maybe so, but none of the skilled HVAC labor was willing to spend the time to conduct a load-calculation to determine what the units should be sized at. The auditing HVAC company thought it was a mystery that the 3/2 units were installed as they were because he felt it should have been 2/3. But, $450 doesn't buy a load calculation--just a blower door test for leakages and register throughput exam.
I'm with you... all the lawyer mold stuff is crap... find me residental case law where a system was oversized and quote it or STFU... i just don't believe it... most of the mold issues are crap also... if that was the case they'd all hot water use and anything that produces steam......
I want what i'm willing to pay for... if i want 5 tons in 1000sf... thats my choice
i grew up in a house that felt like a meat locker... my dads not happy unless you can see your breath when it's 100degrees outside... and we never had a mold issue and he never complained about pay'n for it...
hvac is for your comfort... if you ain't comfortable... it ain't work'n to your satisfaction...period
jmho
p
I went to the dentist yesterday and was chatting with the same hygenist I've used for the past seven years. She has a two-story house on daylight basement with no shading. She 'likes it 72ºF' on her second floor and her AC can provide that--even last week.
Nice, I asked if she would be willing to swap houses. Sure, her house isn't oversized--just special. :)
Count your blessings: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=needles%2C+ca
Maybe that's where all the good HVACs have gone to.
So how much is that gonna cost me? Well let's see, we charge by the hour and by the degree.
Sure ... and who will you call when the unit has problems? The guy who put it in .... calls that you expect to be 'under warranty.'
There's a reason it's called a SKILLED trade. The sizing of HVAC equipment is something that requires training, experience, and judgment. That's what you're paying for.
Bigger isn't always better. There are a host of very real technical reasons that mean a unit that is too large will not operate well. There can also be code issues with some equipment.
Getting hotter? Gee, well, that's never happened in August before :D The AC guy sits around all winter, hoping he can make the rent, waiting for the phone to ring. Come summer, suddenly everyone needs their stuff fixed / installed / maintained RIGHT NOW. Are you really surprised that he lacks 'sensitivity?'
FWIW, I have NEVER lived in a place with air conditioning. The best I could manage was a small portable swamp cooler. From the dry oven-like heat of the Sahara .... to the swampy mugginess of the Mississippi valley ... no AC. Forgive me if I do not 'feel your pain'.
"There's a reason it's called a SKILLED trade. The sizing of HVAC equipment is something that requires training, experience, and judgment. That's what you're paying for." But not competancy, ethics, integrity. :)
Sorry, I find it disturbing that a man cannot pay for a living environment that can provide him with sub-80ºF temps at Midnight--defend that condition all you would like. If I am not allowed to have cooler than 80ºF at Midnight then its because the so-called skilled labor says I cannot.
Once again, if your AC can't lower the temps below 80 by midnight then it's most likely simply broken (assuming that outside temps are dropping below 90 at night).
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"Once again, if your AC can't lower the temps below 80 by midnight then it's most likely simply broken (assuming that outside temps are dropping below 90 at night)."
Too hot in the room to bother going onto the second floor except to shower. This morning it is 73ºF outside and the PC room is 78ºF. I went to bed last night at 10PM (slept on downstairs sofa again) and it was 83ºF in this PC room. I had left everything off on that floor yesterday--made no difference and today is expected to be hotter.
Nuke,
As the fellows have said, there is a balance between comfort and $$$$.
One thing I'd add is about the Trane central system I bought in the summer of 2000. The bid included a "10 year parts and labor" clause and a 5" wide air filter box on the return air.
3 years later an unrepairable leak in the indoor coil was found; so it was replaced. With the oversize air filter, the coil looked brand new and no hit of clogging lint or fuzz. The replacement coil and labor would have cost $1,200. Then in June of 2007, the indoor variable speed motor, control module, and master control board, all were replaced. Another note from the Trane Warranty saying it would have cost another $1,200.
Three years to go and all still covered, so I feel good about the future. Considering the price increases for parts and labor, it apppears it's worth thinking about if you add your new system.
Bill
Whether it's a sizing problem, or a duct problem, or whatever ... it looks like it won't be a '5 minute fix.' Which means you're not likely to get someone to come until October. You'll just have to sweat this one out.
Sure, with the additional details you have since supplied, it does look like there's a real problem that needs to be found, and fixed.
I know nothing about your house .... but I have seen some pretty fancy homes go up recently, that have such screwey truss plans, I can't see how anyone could get a decent duct run. Pinched ducts, sharp turns, etc.
Then there are control issues .... like having an entire house controlled by one thermostat.
It's also very possible that the original system is so poorly executed that nobody want to touch it, knowing full well that you will expect miracles from them. Maybe a complete redesign and replacement is necessary.
"Whether it's a sizing problem, or a duct problem, or whatever ... it looks like it won't be a '5 minute fix.' Which means you're not likely to get someone to come until October. You'll just have to sweat this one out."
I think you may be right. On one hand, the first HVAC company that came out to evaluate my problem (including detecting leaks in the refrigerant line) didn't have a leak detector--yet he goes about town "adding a couple of pounds of freon" and charging for it. But then I have to wonder how others are getting into the same situation and getting service (coworker just had his 2nd floor coils replaced).
BTW, I've compromised on the last contractor visit. I offered to pay for them to rip out the complete existing 2nd floor system and replace it with whatever they thought was necessary. This includes the ductwork. Takers? :)
Taking your tale at face value ... I have no cause to doubt ... the approach of the second guy, as you describe it, is shocking. One does NOT simply 'add freon.' When the HVAC guy comes out, the first thing he ought to do is see if the unit is removing heat. That is, the system is running, and a simple wave of the hand over the exhaust fan ought to tell him - in the crudest way possible - that the unit is removing heat (by exhausting hot air). Likewise, a simple look at / touch of the refrigerant lines will say something .... one needs to be a lot cooler than the other. The next step is checking if cold air is coming out the ductwork. This ought to give some idea as to whether air is actually being moved. If, say, the insulation contractor crushed a duct when he crawled over it ... well, the lower air flow ought to be noticeable. Only when duct problems and control problems are eliminated do you look at the unit itself. First item: are the condenser fins clean? Or, do they have an oak trees' worth of leaves sucked on to them? Is there good airflow over the unit. You'd be amazed at the folks who pile stuff atop the condenser ... then wonder why the A/C isn't working well. Checking the unit's ratings comes next. Is the unit rated for the electricity it's getting? Is the unit of a reasonable size? (Just a SWAG will do here). Finally, when everything else is ruled out, do we look at the refrigerant.
Forget about a 'leak detector.' That only comes out when you KNOW you have a leak. Even then, there are better approaches.
Rather, you MEASURE. Measure the 'superheat.' There are several ways to do this. Superheat is a measure of how much heat the unit is removing, and can be measured in several different ways. That's what those fancy gauges are used for. The unit is marked with the information the HVAC guy needs for this measurement. This is where the 'add freon' guy is discredited. Why? Because too much freon is as bad as too little, and will take away from the unit's performance. If the superheat is low, then freon may be added / removed to get the value where it belongs. More often, the freon will be completely removed, and a vacuum test will be performed. This is where the system is checked for leaks. Then, if all is well, freon will be added until the unit is operating as well as is possible. How does the tech know to say 'when?' Again, superheat. He's measuring it continually as he fills the unit. Off the top, I'd say keep looking. Sounds like you've encountered a few incompetents. I'd caution against telling the guy the solution ... rather, let him make the diagnosis. Do you have any large hotels or near you? If so, maybe you can get one of their "operators" or "stationary engineers" to make some side money, looking at your system. Ditto, your community college is likely to have HVAC classes .... track down the staff. While none of these folks will fix your system, you might be able to get a professional opinion.
The condenser fans are clean, not blocked, and weeds kept at bay.
"Just a SWAG will do here" What does this mean? I would hope that any of the three out of five warm seasons that I had HVAC contractors over that they would have noticed something, especially since they are adding freon each time.
"Ditto, your community college is likely to have HVAC classes " I know several people on my vanpool and at my workplace that are looking to do just this.
Nuke, you've had plenty of time to watch this thread develop. Several posters have suggested you try professional HVAC forums, such as http://www.HVAC Talk.com What have you learned from them?
From my perspective, is appears the no tradesman is able to satisfy you ... and your problem keeps changing it's description. The house can't be cool enough - yet tha attic is plenty cool to work in?
Part of me is thinking that you do not desire a solution ... but would rather continue to stir up a discussion.
What did the pros suggest in their forums? Have you followed any of their advice? Just how much air is flowing, how cool is it coming out the registers, and what is the superheat? Was it professionally designed - or are you asking a miracle to be performed on a DIY mess?
Without that data, one cannot diagnose or fix the problem.