I have the ability to learn and do everything myself. Currently, I am building up bicycles, and now I am going to lace up my own wheels.
Question: Do any of you find this ability to do stuff a curse? I find that I burn all my time up because I can and do learn stuff and the end result is usually good. I am beginning to think its better to cough up and pay other folks to do stuff for me. But when I do that, I usually suffer: Flooded basement from a crummy washer install. Car repairs that require two or three trips back. Proper job, all the wrong parts. All the right parts, bad job. On and on.
So. Curse or gift?
Replies
Gift.
You get have more tools to fix.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
No idea.
So, are you sticking with a standard three cross?
What about the dishing?
Front or rear wheel?
Me, I love making a good wheel.
I am going to follow Sheldon Brown's article. I am going to do both front and rear, use Deore hubs 36 hole rims, Sun CR18's and double butted spokes. My friend has a truing stand, dish gauge, etc. I build for touring and weigh 200 so I need stout quality.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Sounds like a nice set up. I'd stick with the steel nipples and avoid the alloy
head aches. I don't know the article, do you have a link?
I bet he meant this onehttp://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.htmlNow if I could just learn some carbon layup tech, I'd think about building some super lightweight wheels. Or I could just fork over a huge chunk of cash and let Cees Beers do it for me.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
That's it. What a wonderful wealth of knowledge he put down for folks.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Thanks! That is an excellent sight.
If you are building for touring, you might even go up to 4 cross. Be sure you get stainless steel spokes, to avoid rust. I just had to have an old pair relaced because of all the rust.I don't lace my own wheels. I had a truing stand and dishing gauge, but I gave it away. I totally suck at it.
What does the 4 cross add?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
More crosses=longer spoke. Longer spokes yield more flex and comfort, particularly when hauling loads. They are also less likely to break. I don't know if you load panniers or not, but that might be a consideration.Really though, I'm not sure it makes that much difference. If you belong to a bicycle club, you might toss the idea around and see what other's experience says.
I am 200 pounds and had loaded panniers front and rear. Loosened a few spokes. Almost considered 40 hole rims, but it would be overkill.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
As to jack of all trades--when I started out I (partially) ignored the (good) advice of several other professional tradespeople to specialize, as it is wayyy more efficient and profitable to know your trade in and out, have all your tools and materials ready to go on a job and in the truck, and simplify your existence.
Now I do several different things pretty well, and a couple things very well, from framing to finish carpentry to sheetrock. I also know quite a bit about plumbing and electrical. I'm glad for this too, because these days, the more I know how to do and stay 'tooled up' for, the more income I can produce.
As to bicycle wheels, I worked in bicycle shops all through college, and later worked for Co-Motion Cycles, a manufacturer, as a parts/tech/buyer/sales guy. I built literally thousands of wheels for them during my employement there and after. I'll first say that these days there are proprietary, meaning 'system' type wheels, made by many manufacturers that perform far far better than a handbuilt 32 or 36h wheel for many applications, but for touring a good handbuilt wheelset like you're building is still where it's at.
You should find the book by Jobst Brandt called "the bicycle wheel." It's the best. I don't know what Brown's method is for lacing wheels, but you should stay away from anybody's method where you put all the spokes in the hub first. This is very inneficient, physically hard to do and understand, and easy to make mistakes with. In the Brandt method, you are putting 4 'sets' of spokes in, one set at a time. Any wheel, any pattern, and number of holes, all start the same and are completed the same.
Double butted SS spokes are good for your application--they make the wheel, a little lighter, more elastic and able to take up shock and impacts. Don't use alloy nipples however, for a touring wheelset. They are far more fragile than brass. Also, an alloy nipple in a rim with no 'eyelet' at the spoke hole is a no no as it scores the head of the nipple as you spin it in the rim, making a nice place for the head to break off. Be sure when you calculate spoke length you end up with the spoke end out to the end of the nipple too for a strong wheel.
Happy building.
Pat
Good post. Thanks for the advice and for the book title.
Yes sir!
Bicycles are one area I can certainly claim expertise--was basically my former life.
Pat
It's a curse.
Whole bunch of things could be done by some one else way faster than I can, but I know when they're done I'm gonna be pissed at the job they did.
Joe H
"It's a curse.
Whole bunch of things could be done by some one else way faster than I can, but I know when they're done I'm gonna be pissed at the job they did."
Amen,
There are some times I wish I did not even know what a screwdriver was :)
Effer, let me know how the wheels turn out. I have been tossing back and forth about doing a set myself or just turning over the Visa card to Colorado Cycles :)
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
I saw the wheels at Colorado. and Performance bike has some nice ones too. But they are all just not quite what I want.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Gift when you're young and have no money; curse when you get [older][more grown up][decrepit][slow as a snail tied to a tree] and can't stop.
Don't ask me how I know this.
Depends on how you approach your life.
Pursuit of a goal or engagement in the process?
Just realizing that some goals won't happen if you are painting the house or replaceing the O2 sensor on the car. Danghttp://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
There's nothing like first hand experience to teach you the true value of having some jobs done by someone else.
I see you have done waste line plumbing too!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I see you have done waste line plumbing too!
Oh yeah--in my younger, dumber days I once cleaned out a clogged 4" line barehanded. Makes me gag a little just thinking about it now.
Lets put it this way. Things were slow so I called Manpower. They had a customer who needed a welder for 2 weeks. After two weeks they needed some mechanical work done. Then they wanted me to assemble some PVC fittings in a research prototype. Another guy did electrical work. They wanted him to help me out. He refused--and got fired. Better to be a generalist and put food on the table than do one thing and starve. Tyr.
cursed gift
it's when everything you try works out passably well and is reasonably enjoyable but not well enough to make a living or fun enough to be a hobby
j
I think it depends on if we think of ourselves or the others in our lives. It's a curse when doing it yourself takes away time that probably should be spent on the people in our lives. As for me, I just can't help myself; I just can't have someone else do it if I can. Besides, it is a great pleasure in my life and a cause of satisfaction to see yourself through something you haven't done before and come out with a positive result. Of, course, I've been through three wives now. But there is almost nowhere I'd rather be than out in my crowded shop messing around with something new.
I've been blessed by a strong interest in anything mechanical, ever since I got my first bicycle as a kid. Being short of education and financial ambitions has made it necessary to learn how to do almost every kind of mechanical rebuild myself.
Getting to the inside of anything is rewarding. It also leads to adventures that are way more interesting than the typical country club lifestyle. Nothing against wealth and opulent living but I prefer it in small doses.
I worked my way into aviation, rebuilding my first airplane from a wreck while living in a small cabin I'd also built. That led to a rewarding association with other pilots who build their own airframes, usually from kits. I worked with one excellent builder and pilot who became U.S. and World Aerobatic Champion, flying an airplane he'd built himself, from scratch.
So, in my experience, being a DIYer has no limits.
Wheel building is one of the more frustrating skills I've ever tried. I helped a local bike shop owner, remodeling his new store front in exchange for a custom bike. He let me build it up myself, including the wheels. My first rear wheel took me almost two days to get close. I later rebuilt it, adding those little brass washers at the hub end of each spoke. The second time around was a lot easier but still a PIA.
BTW, I used Ultegra hubs. They're not a lot more expensive than Deore and they have the reputation of being top quality, just not super lightweight. IMO, if you're going to spend a day or more, building a wheel, it makes sense to buy better quality hubs.
BTW, I like Deore too. I have a factory bike with all Deore components, including hubs, and I have no complaints.
Velocity makes good rims at fair prices. All of the wheels I've built, a half dozen now, have been with their rims.
Edited 3/25/2009 3:04 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I agree about the effort involved warranting the best
components you can get. The article mentioned "Phil Wood". An excellence
hub fore sure. "Chris King" would be my first choice. Yeah expensive but
hand made wheels tend to last a very long time.
Yep, Sheldon Brown ought to be called 'Encyclopedia Brown' for all the info in that site. I suspect he was a bit of an odd fellow, but you can't help but admire the passion he put into his efforts.Chris King makes a really nice hubset. Got a pair that I love to ride. Even though all my gear is Shimano, I have a couple of Campy wheelsets that have been beaten to death. I'll put up with the shifting difference to ride them, as I like them that much.And to address the original question, I do all my own mechanic work. Pretty much have to break the bikes down to travel to an international race so you get plenty of practice. And I decided long ago that I trusted myself more than someone else to take care of this. The shop mechanic isn't going to help when I've got an issue on a training ride, and if I'm racing 112 miles I want to be darn sure it was me doing the final tuneup.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
2 sided sword, you can do it , then you start buying more tools to do it better, I have 2 complete sets of mecanics tools, a welder, torch, plumbing , electrical, HVAC and just shop full of woodworking & carpentry tools ( I am a journeyman carpenter & contractor) bit of flooring, painting , drywall ect.
Farmer, built pole type buildings, Welder, Farm equipment repair & set up, Construction , Rebuild couple tractor diesel engines, snowmobile mechanic, water treatment plant operator, Hardware store clerk, ect, ect.
If it was easy, everyone could do it!
I don't like any outsider working in my house but I'll temper that by saying as i get older i realize that some things are better left to others. there are things i just don't want to do anymore like work on autos and furnaces. I still have a strong sense of pride in doing it myself but i don't have the time to do everything.FatRoman, not to hijack this thread but where can i find some resources on finding out what size bike would be right for me,64 yo, 6' and 210lbs, what brands and models. there are so many choices out there I'm overwhelmed.
Hey, the thread started on bikes, so I don't think we are at risk of hijacking it.Let's start here...What kind of riding are you looking to do? Off-road? Road racing? Around town to get coffee? Riding mostly on bike paths? Planning to ride from Florida to Maine and take your camping gear with you?How far are you planning an average ride to be? 5 miles? 50 miles?I'm 5'12" too and usually ride a 58cm frame for road/triathlon bikes. Weight's not going to have too much to do with your selection, BUT if you are 210 spend your time riding to drop weight instead of spending money on lightweight components. 210 is probably pushing the limit on a lot of the small carbon parts out there. That said you'd be fine with a carbon frame if you went that way.Brands sort of depend on what kind of riding you want to do, too. As long as you don't buy it from Walmart you'll probably wind up with something that will suit your needs. Every bike manufacturer makes some good stuff, and some make some less than stellar stuff, too. Figure out the type of riding and distance you are interested in and we'll go from there.The best advice I can offer on that front is to find a local bike shop and ride as many different bikes as you can until you find one that's comfortable to you. Don't listen to anything before you listen to your own body, because it's going to be sitting on that bike for mile after mile.I've got a seat that's nothing more than a piece of carbon with a thin layer of leather on top. No padding whatsoever. Just about anyone I ride with thinks I stole it from Torquemada. I happen to find it the most comfortable seat I've yet ridden. So just remember that it's your perspective that counts.Best,Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
Good advice from the Corpulent Roman. I would highly suggest you browse the Rivendell bike site and Velo Orange. These guys believe in lugged steel frames of larger and more comfortable geometry. I would not buy a Rivendell, just due to cost. But I agree totally with their philosophy.
Most shops will want to sell you something far too lightweight out of space age materials for huge cost. Its just not how most folks ride. Most people are not racing. The racing geometry has too short a wheelbase and too high a gearing for most people. Many of the frames are aluminum, which is not too comfy compared to steel.
I do think cross-bikes have their virtues for those who do a mix of riding and want to ride upright, no drop bars. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
where can i find some resources on finding out what size bike would be right for me,64 yo, 6' and 210lbs, what brands and models. there are so many choices out there I'm overwhelmed.
I'm 66 and have been riding recumbent bikes almost exclusively for the last six-seven years. They are exceedingly comfortable for any length ride. The more advanced designs are also very fast.
Lots of helpful information at http://www.bentrideronline.com
I couldn't imagine not tweaking my bike just so. Such a personal precision machine has to be tailored
to it's rider.
Phil Wood makes better hubs.
Phil Wood makes better hubs.
Sure...if you have the money to spend. There are several manufacturers around who make better quality hubs than Shimano's Ultegra, all at premium prices.
I'll join you in the Ultegra camp. It's what I ride on the road. Well made. That's a lot more then grams shaved and torsional
flex. Shimano seams to get no credit for clean, straight forward,
reliable products. I can't think of a more user friendly hub to repack.
Shimano seams to get no credit for clean, straight forward, reliable products.
I believe that they don't get proper kudos for reliability because they make so many low end components for the throw-away market. I can understand why they do it, something to keep cash flow up, but why do they put their name on that junk?
I can't think of a more user friendly hub to repack.
Do you recall the recommended mileage for repacking or is more like an annual major tune-up thing? I suppose I should download the shop manual from their web-site, just to be sure I use the preferred grease, etc.
Phil Wood grease is the way to go. Not sure of recommended mileage. I go by riding
conditions. Wet muddy road grime is the real problem. I'd like to say I repack twice a year (once after spring and another
in the late fall) but the truth is I only do it once. June, as soon
as things dry up.
Good question. I'm a bit like you--seems like in many cases I can do a better job (or at least take more care to do it "right") than the "experts" I hire. But, like you, I don't have time to do everything. Just recently I had a water heater put in and left the installer on his own (I know that many don't like to be watched, although I've recently started asking and have been pleasantly surprised at how many don't mind and we end up chatting and I learn a lot) and then I look after he's gone and the thing is obviously not sitting level--guess it doesn't matter (it's only off a little), but it still bothers me.
Anyway, I have learned to allow some things to be done by others. After allowing wife to use "Turbotax" and then getting a slew of nasty, threatening letters from the IRS and having had to then pay an accountant bookoo bucks to fix it, I have gone back to having a CPA do our tax return. I also generally go to the doctor for health things--although after the podiatrist told me yesterday he didn't really know, it was up to me what to do next about my torn tendons and he himself was wondering what to do about his own tendonitis in his Achilles tendon, I ended up doing lots of research on line and decided not to do one of the things he was pushing--inject cortisone into the tendon sheath. Its sort of like what Reagan said, "Trust, but verify," or, "Trust the dealer, but always cut the deck."
that's a really interesting point Danno
about the water heater--------
personally, I have zero idea if it has to be absolutely level or not
downside to DIY------ you may waste incredible amounts of time obbsessing over things--- that just don't matter?
stephen
I install carpet/floorcoverings from time to time when a local store here needs one done quick. My stock answer when someone wants to hang around and watch is "here is my price. If you want to watch, its double. If you want to help, help me pick up my tools, you can't afford it." Sometimes I'm kidding, other times I wish I weren't.
The first time I ever used an accountant was a year fresh out of school and had 4 forms! He did great. Next time I had to use a different guy for one form. He hosed it up! Oh well,.... He made good on it. But again it ate up time. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
etherhuffer,
I think mike maines has the best response-- but I would add calculating in lost opportunity cost---- the school play you might miss, the kids baseball game, the kids track meet or even the book you might have read.
also- beware what I call "brother in law syndrome"--- we ALL have these guys in our lives--- heck Breaktime is primarily populated by these guys, LOL-- guys who can do anything!-- but in practice , I note that most guys aren't as good at as many things as they THINK they are-------
Best wishes,
stephen
To me where the rubber meets the road is if it enriches your life.
I'll replace my own starter in the van instead of hiring someone when I probably could of made enough money doing something else to pay somebody. Its a bad habit from not having money at times. The key is to find a good mechanic you can trust.
On the other hand, I don't take time to do those projects which you really don't get paid, but you get absorbed in and forget about the world for awhile or get involved with community service.
But if I tried to lace a wheel, there would be a mangled mess of spokes in the trash can as I went to the bike shop.
I spent several decades without a lot of bucks. My folks had little bucks but lots of thrift, so the family learning did help. We used peach crates for dining room chairs when I was a kid! The dinner table was from wood scraps left over from the folk's house construction. But we are never in debt and never live beyond our means. Keeps ya focused.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I have to do it myself. "I hate paying someone who does a worst job than me" In the Big City the Yellow Page guys have enough customers for a lifetime of ripoffs, reputation does not matter. 80% of the time, repair solutions require just a minor part replacement, but 80% of the time, they give thousand of dollars repair solutions.
Breaktime and the Internet gives me a greater advantage on how to fix or repair things. All the Jack of All trades reading this know very skilled Guys who will NOT do Internet, so we have another "Curse" in our hat over them.
Two truths in life
TIME=MONEY
and
Anyone who says you can't buy happiness just hasn't found the happiness store.
when your young, don't have much money, and plenty of time?
Then the ability to spend your time and save what little money you have? Is a Gift.
But as you have more money?
I would gladly trade a little of my own money for time.
Since I've worked as a carpenter, owned my own business, and built or rebuilt motorcycles and cars ........I can pretty much master any task.
And letting go is hard.
Paid a guy to install my new Dishwasher.
Just couldn't swallow the cost of the new Diverter for my bathroom, so out came the tools.
But as you think about it more......you realize that you can spend money, to preserve your time for the things YOU want to do.
Lacing wheels sounds like something you enjoy.........so have at it........and get someone to do the things you don't like to do.
I would never pay anyone to rebuild my '76 Elsinore with the Webco head anf FMF pipe.....................but can't for the life of me tell you the last time I changed my own oil in the car.
I don't post much but do a lot of "lurking". Thanks to many of you for your excellent advice.
I would add to your "Time = Money" , "Penny Wise Pound Foolish".
As a fellow DYI'er, I need to know the limits to my abilities and know when to bring in the experts. The problem I find though, is the considerable time that I might need to invest in, separating the true experts from those warm bodies who bill me as if they are experts.
And then, there are those jobs that I just don't like doing, those jobs that require special tools to do efficiently or those jobs that require that special touch that comes with years of experience or specialize knowledge. I think most of us can add insulation to an attic. Not something that I like doing. I can and have done basic plumbing but I don't particularly like working on the waste lines. I have become better at repairing holes in drywall. But it would take considerable time for me to become proficient in drywalling a room. Not something that I really want to do. There are many people who can do a higher quality job in considerably less time.
it is a curse...
I wish I could trust others to help me more often.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Pop probably laced up or trued over 1000 bicycles wheels in retirement, could do it in his sleep. He picked up bikes at SA and Goodwill, repaired, and then gave them away or donated back. Never ever bought a new bike, let alone anything pricey.
Have only done a few bike wheels myself, dont find any fun in it. Took a used bike to UK a couple of times to ride the canals, then left the bike there, too much trouble to bring back thru customs. Also bought a used bike in Scotland once, needed to true up the wheels on the bike. Airport security at ORD actually took a spoke wrench away from me on return trip - how the heck could you hurt anybody with a spoke wrench??
Have never had anything but an old used bike in my life, $5 at a garage sale is about my limit, but did once pay $20 for a $1K bike that had a pedal thread in crank stripped (machined out an insert (too stripped for helicoil), press fit and bonded that into crank, son still has that bike)
As far as DIY on other aspects, esp car repair or home jobs, can always get something fixed myself in less manhours that it would take to find someone competent never mind the cost, get the car to a shop, then go pick it up, etc.. That includes swapping out engines or auto tranny repair.
It is a gift if you use it correctly. One thing I've found is that if you move it can be a huge setback.
What I mean is that if you have a gift it is the people around you that will benefit from it.
Those relationships are what is important.
You have to build those relationships on trust. They will trust you because of the integrity of your work (you).
I've heard good things about Mike Garcia at odds and endos. He will build a custom wheel with what you do in mind. And not for to much money. I've heard they are good wheels that last a long time. He prefers to talk to people on the phone about what they want.
http://www.oddsandendos.com/main.sc;jsessionid=69B455691D966553FBABC5B82BC16468.qscstrfrnt01
Edited 3/26/2009 12:14 pm ET by popawheelie
Edited 3/26/2009 12:17 pm ET by popawheelie
Wow, lots of folks here who do there own stuff! And lots of cyclists too. I figure I have little to lose doing 2 sets of wheels. If I don't get the tension just so, I can always buck up and have a shop help me. I just like the challenge of learning some new dark art!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
If I don't get the tension just so, I can always buck up and have a shop help me.
From my few wheel builds, you can anticipate that yours will need going over by a pro, after you've gotten them close. There's no shame in that and you'll probably get some good advice about how to improve, on your next set.
My boss at the first shop I worked at had me strip
down an old Huffy front wheel and rebuild it. There's nothing like a disposable patient to learn on. The one mistake that can have you pulling your hair out is
out of round. Thread all the spokes evenly. Sounds simple, but does take
special care and once it's buggered up you'll be cussin .
Edited 3/27/2009 7:42 am ET by Henley
Out of round........uff da. I think that is why the wheelbuilding guides suggest the first time you do this, run all the nipples down to the same point on the threads first, loosely, then go by turns or 1/4 turns. I also now see why you need lube on the threads, so they don't twist as you tighten. But, then they should be locked down a little when set right. Uff da.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I have built a fair number of wheels. I have also had ZERO issues with the wheels I have built (other than actually trashing them).Get into the habit of overturning your nipples a bit, and then backing off to relieve any wind up.Most people now build with butted spokes.Stress-relieving is one of the keys to good wheelbuilding.I have built wheels over the last 14 years or so. Never had a tension meter. I have never used Spoke Prep, Loctite, or any kind of thread locker. I do use some grease on the threads. When I started I got help from experienced wheel builders to get a feel for proper tension. In my own estimation, there is no exact 'correct' spoke tension. In fact, there is a (small)range that will work just fine. Again, stress-relief is key.Three-cross is the way to go. There are lots of variations possible in lacing, but the time tested old reliable is three-cross. Jobst Brandt puts forth his argument for it in his book.Yup. Four sets of spokes, laced one set at a time. Simple, straight forward, you can see and understand just what you are doing. Sheldon Brown rocks! Long live Sheldon Brown, may he rest in peace!
Edited 3/27/2009 11:39 am by kenhill3
I think it depends on the situation whether it be a curse or a blessing.
I too have wondered what it would be like to be mechanically ignorant. I suppose I would be more like the clients I currently have. I would enjoy wearing suits and ties and sitting in office cubicles typing numbers into computers and reading TPS reports.
I really have no clue what people do in offices...but I commonly feel like they would rather be me. I own every tool in the world, I'm outside all day, I'm tinkering, i'm free.
But I am cursed by my own blessing....I don't make enough money to afford myself.
I want a Subzero fridge and Viking stove in my kitchen. I want to drive a Mercedes. I want to go on vacation in the Bahamas. But I cannot because I am cursed.
Yet, I always gain solace by imagining a post-apocalyptic world where those with mechanical strength become survivors and those little weenies without knowledge of tools become eaten by survivors.
DC
mixed blessing....
you know enough about "stuff" that you know when the "PRO" is FOS ie full of xyz...
I hate when i do pay someone that is a professional... and they do the work far worse than i would ever do ...
I will accept sub par work from myself in situations when i know where "good enough" really is ok...
as I've posted before when you have done so much with so little for so long... you can now do anything with nothing....
many times in my life to have what i wanted or just to get by I had no choice but to learn how to rebuild a transmission... or an engine... or even an elevator...
if you can read... have any common sense at all and just a little mechanical ability... then i'm pretty sure you can fix anything mechanical that can be fixed... is it a curse to be able to do this? maybe... but as junkhound has pointed out much better than i ever could.... few people understand what things really cost them... ie... what you have to earn to pay someone else to fix or build anything for you... it's not the $500 they charge you... but the $750-1000 dollars you have to earn to be able to pay them... if you were in sales and on commission you might have to sell 20k or more worth of goods to pay someone $500 to fix something you could have fixed in 3 hours.... boils down to... do you want to work at your job 3 days to pay someone else for 3 hours labor?
your choice... just be glad you have the option
P