We are a custom builder/ remodeler and handle projects such as new custom homes, custom additions/ whole house remodels, interior renovation work, etc. We are in the process of changing the way we estimate our work, moving away from the yellow pad method and towards computer based estimating. I am new to the intricacies of estimating and am trying to facilitate the changes in our company but need some help. I understand from researching several different estimating/management operating systems, reading up info here and on the JLC Forums, and reading through various trade publications that one of the most important aspects of accurate estimating is knowing your own Job Costs (ie: How long it takes to perform specific tasks) I realize that no matter how many programs you have or spreadsheets you develop to assist you in estimating, if you don’t know your costs, essentially, you are just guessing.
So my question is: What have people found to be the best method to accumulate, organize, and track job costs?
The company I work for has been in business for @ 15 years and we do beautiful work, but we have never tracked job costs. The partners I work for have come up through the trades and can build anything, but the business end of things is a work in progress. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks alot!
Replies
You can buy an estimating program from several sources like Means and Craftsman, and they are available on cd. I believe that you can customize the data base, so in your case you could load your own historical cost data.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It is a process! A good accounting program is the start. All costs need to be entered in a way that directly relates to how you estimate.
You need to compare apples with apples. Your book keeper will be a very important piece of the puzzle. Can that person break out an invoice to seperate out foundation bolts from other bolts? Do you estimate in that much detail? If you ballpark estimate than that is how you should account for items.
The system needs to be usable as well. If you are not going to be able to use the info then it is worthless.
For example, the company I work for use to track in a different category for each vehicle every tire they bought. The info never got used. Worthless!
Jill
I believe that you can customize the data base, so in your case you could load your own historical cost data.
I think that's the problem- it sound like in 15 years, they've never tracked their productivity or job costs. Scary, huh?
Bob
Thanks guys, I appreciate it. It is scary Bob, and I think to me right now that is the daunting part of the equation. But I can see by viewing posts here and reading trade journals and publications that there is more than enough help out there to help me get on with this. The toughest part right now is diving in and getting started and trying to get everybody here on the same page. I have been looking through Jerry Hayes' spreadsheets to assist in this effort as well as your sample estimating spreadsheet.
Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thanks!
Jerald's program is great.For the next few jobs you should d the yellow pad method AND a spreadsheet method where you fill in the boxes. Then compare. Be sure to do them independantly at first. This way you will have a true comparison without each inflencing the other. You will soon find trends.Oh yes, also compare these tally's with Final Billing tallys from the jobs you have completed in the recent past. You may find that you are always screwing yoursef on a particular item in the scope of work and are making up for it with Change Orders..This process should be reviewed each year in order to keep up with material cost increases and the supply demand (guns and butter) ratio.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
hey, how are you doing ?
we use the predecesor to Buildwworks, GCWorks
we've used it for about 10 years now..
if i were going to buy another one, BuildWorks is the one i'd buy
absolutely changed the way we do business
http://www.synapsesoftware.com/difference.htmlMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am not going to tell you the name of a program for estimating. You can use Excel to create some very sophiticated estimating programs. This will help systematize(is that a word?) the process. But there is no estimating software that can tell you what YOUR companies costs are. Nobody knows how efficient your crews are at certain processes but you. You can plug in a cost per manhour and the material costs, but the holy grail of estimating is the man hours per process. The off the shelf estimating books such as Means or Craftsman may get you in the ballpark but you need to understand how they arrived at the number and then figure out how that relates to your company. You need to convince your employers that you need to start collecting that information in a way that is usable to the estimator but do it in such a way as to not have the field guys spend alot of time doing paperwork. One way might be to have them use CSI or NAHB cost code catagories as a way to track time. It would also be helpfull to have someone ie. foreman or lead taking job notes to record job conditions unique to that job. It is a shame they have been at it for 15 years and all of that history is just water under the bridge. I used to work for a cabinet shop with about 50 employees. I started out as an apprentice became a journyman and ended up in the estimateing office. My company had also been in business for over 15 years and had never collected data that gave me the information I needed to estimate correctly. My coworkers and I did alot of research into estimating and came up with a great system that was not too complex for the shop guys yet would give us the data we needed. But we could never get the boss to buy in. I left in frustration and started my own company. I now have a small amount of sympathy for his headaches but not alot. Oh ya, go to the Journal Of Light Construction forum. They have a section on estimating that will give you alot of pointers. Good luck and remember, is this an art or a science, or a lot of both.
I actually have a similar query, only difference is, I’ve been doing this about 15 week. I’m responding because I’ve been dealing with these same issues for the past few weeks. Fortunately there is no shortage of work, the only problem is I feel like I’m spending to much time pushing buttons and not enough time banging nails. I spent most of my spare time last week trying to create spreadsheet templates that would help me track cost, and in turn help me estimate faster and more accurately. Only problem is I would end up having to enter data in multiple spreadsheets and trying to link data to make comparisons was becoming a nightmare. It came to the point that I employed the help of a computer expert to make sure I set up all my formulas correctly and that the program I was creating would work the way I wanted it to. After an hour of trying to work it out, he convinced me to just purchase a copy of Quick books Premier Contractors Edition. As a professional computer consultant he ensured me that this program would work much better than something I could create, he shared with me that he had tried doing similar things with Excel and found it to be a waste of time, and he spends all day on a computer! And I see his point. In this business time is money and I don’t know any builder that likes wasted steps ( other wise none of us would be on this site looking for better ways to build), so why not use a program that already has all the bugs worked out. I always say, "I can’t be the first person trying to figure this out". Anyhow, I’m curios to hear how you’ve come up with a solution to you question.
Steve
p.s. Whats the JLC forum?
p.s. Whats the JLC forum?http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/index.php
thumbsmasher & builderhayes....
do you guys have an "enter" key on your keyboard ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
do you guys have an "enter" key on your keyboard ?
I do, In fact I have a lot of keys on my keyboard. Where you going with this?
"I do, In fact I have a lot of keys on my keyboard. Where you going with this?"That the appropriate use of the right keys in the right order makes for transfering useful information that can be easily read.Notusingtherightkeysintherightordermakesitshardtoread.JLCforumsaretheforumsontheJournaloflightconstructionwebsite.
Edited 3/17/2006 3:32 pm by BillHartmann
It seems Mike is needling you to breakup you text in paragraphs to make it more readable online. Hey I like your screename (I wonder why?). It has a nice lyric ring to it especially on this glorious St. Patricks Day.
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MikeSmith - "thumbsmasher & builderhayes....
do you guys have an "enter" key on your keyboard ?"
Mike that brings up a question I've been meaning to ask you. Do you have a "shift" key on yours?
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sorry .... early influence of ee cummingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Like ee cummings many software programs I think are over rated.No matter what you use, you have to take the time to enter data, have reports from the jobsite, organize your paperwork viola! Now you are running a company as opposed to just banging nails.For me, running the company means much more than banging nails and if I spend too much time in the field, then nothing else gets done. But as a female, if I spend too much time in the office, then it is assumed I can't do anything in the field. I guess I might reach the point where I won't give a damn what people think.I haven't bought any software other than Quickbooks and I have set up a template in Excel that I use. I had to learn Timberline when I went to school for building and that seemed like a great program, although i've heard it is expensive to maintain, much less its initial purchase cost. Of course it took a whole semester to learn just its basic functions.And it still breaks down to requiring that a human enter data that they have accumulated on the field and from receipts and time cards. Whether with a Mercedes or a Chevy Nova, you still will get down the road. How much faster and how much style and comfort is another thing.
BuildWorks ( GC Works for me)
has all of those templates built in.. and it's organized on the 25 caegory CSI
it has quick estimtes, detailed estimates, subcontractor forms , etc..
it links to QuickBooks Pro and it uses Excel as it's base..
the Proposal forms alone are worth the price to me
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the info, i'll look it up.
Funny thing is on my Windows machine (yes I do have one Windows computer, it's a Dell) the left side Shift key sticks so I don't really need the Cap Lock key when using it.
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