A small bit about me.
I do commercial/industrial plumbing jobs, high rises, large condo projects, hospitals, schools, & restaurants mostly.
I have made a good name for myself doing these jobs—– so I get this call from an up & coming plumbing contractor.
He’s buying me a steak dinner at a pretty nice restaurant & so far over the phone is offering me about 120K per year with bonuses that could take me over 200K.
Sounds great but & it’s a big but.
He doesn’t do any of these type of jobs, he also doesn’t deal with generals to my knowledge. He deals with home owners from what I have heard.
He’s also NON-union & I’m union so if I take the job as an employee there goes my union career.
OK I’m just ranting a bit I guess—— I’m meeting with him next week I should keep an open mind.
“can you cross your legs were short a nail” Pontius Pilate
Edited 8/5/2006 10:27 pm ET by plumbbill
Replies
Can't you get a withdrawl in good standing card from your local?
Tipi fest 06. Let's roll.
Well my union hates this paticular contractor.
I had a guy leave my jobsite & go work for this guy & the union brought him up on charges & kicked him out of the local."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
are you an employee
or a business owner ?
carpenter in transition
I am an employee for a very large mechanical contractor.
Job title is general foreman / superintendent."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
'Up and coming'... that's the part that scares me. Who knows if he can really ride with the big boys? If you were saying 'well-established residential plumbing contractor', then OK, I can see banking on it. I don't know how it works, if you can leave the union and then come back, or not, or if you lose your seniority... but I would be very hesitant to give up a proven thing for some guy who says 'yah, I'll pay ya' $120K easy and it could hit $200K'. That's huge money for a tradesman, even an underwater nuclear reactor welder getting deep pay for swimming way up into a cooling intake.
Plus, you wanna think about what's a better ride if the 'economy' goes south for a while... hospitals, or uber-yuppie starter castles? I might be looking to sign on to a couple of years worth of high-rises and Boeing jobs right now.
Yeah ya hit the nail on the head with several points Dave.
Up & comer------ I'm sure ya might have heard there ads " don't be freakin call .........."
From what I've heard they do re-pipes & service----- not really my forte----- I know how , but this point of my career I don't want to be in a puddy wagon fixin crap.
Yeah it's a butt load of money------ I'm not sure where he can dig up that kind of cash from service---- but who knows.
He did bring up that he heard I have experience in project management, but---------
Yeah about the construction goin on right now + up to 6 yrs down the road too.
Plans for 38 tower cranes between Seattle & Bellevue to be up by next summer.
Now if we can get the concrete drivers back to work we might actually be able to get some big jobs going.
I can come back to the union, but I have to put up with the ridicule & have my tail between my legs."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
Here's another part -
I might be able to re-open my business have it signitory with the union & have the guy pay my business instead of me.
Kinda shady----- but perfectly legal."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
Here's another part -
I might be able to re-open my business have it signitory with the union & have the guy pay my business instead of me.
Kinda shady----- but perfectly legal.
A subcontractor isn't that shady. :-)
I can't speak for any plumber, but from the conversations I've had with a few of the better guys who work almost entirely on residential service calls, they make serious cash on the smaller projects. They wouldn't consider new construction or even larger remodels since the margins are so much lower. On many of their calls the profit after covering direct expenses is something like $200/hr per plumber. Scheduling is critical to stay productive all day, but they rarely work a full 8 hrs by choice.
If that's the kind of outfit you're looking into you'd have to love replacing faucets and hot water heaters. :-)
my gut tells me that you aren't going to be riding any "puddy wagon".
or touching any tools for that matter.
it sounds more like this guy wants you to run a new arm of his business.
as far as you starting your own union gig and subbing from this guy ? that would have to be a first. have you checked on what he is paying his plumbers vs. what your total union package is ? if there is a big gap, i doubt he would be comfortable with this scenario.
is there a union "B" rate for residential work in Seattle ?
the only reason i could see your union disliking this guy is that the union has a strong presence in residential work in your area.
where we are, union plumbers rarely touch residential work. and their organizers aren't making much of an effort to change this.
70 miles south in Philadelphia, it's a little different story.
carpenter in transition
I don't know nothing about plumbing, but I do know a little about business.
A) Make him prove that he can pay you what he says over at least one year.
B) Make sure he is making money on you if he pays you that much (include any benefits). If he can't make money on you, then you won't stay around.
And you might want to find out more details as to why the union hates him.
And you might want to find out more details as to why the union hates him.
If he is vocal non-union, then the union is going to hate him. If he is under-bidding union shops, then the union shops aren't going to be happy.
jt8
""The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." --Dave Barry
Those too, but my union hates any compitition.
They say they try to protect the industry as well as the worker but mainly it's a bunch of BS.
I'm pretty well respected with the rank & file members, but the union management can't stand me.
I'm pretty vocal about doing it right the first time & if you're lazy I will shid can ya.
Also I'm no socialist & have pretty conservative views.
They mainly tolerate me cause I have a track record of having jobs that make money & I'm 4th generation in the local."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
BIll,
AT my age, 40, I would look at this a little differently.
Realized income is one thing and $120-200K a year would be nice. But i think you need to take a look at if this guy can really sustain that kind of wage. Maybe he can. As someone else said, I know several plumbers who see real profit on service work. I know at least one who would never even look at new construction because he's pulling down $100K a year as a one man show and puttig in maybe 30 labor hours a week.
But, realized income is not what makes a man wealthy. SO ask yourself, are you living comfortably on what the hall is paying you now? Could you continue to do so?
Then, if the answer is yes, look at what the hall offers in relation to what he offers. HOw are you medical benefits? I have several friends who are employees who now pay in excess of $600 a month for health insurance. One of those friends works for one of the largest banks in the country and yet his health insurance package costs $625 a month for his family.
What is he offering in terms of retirement in relation to the Hall? Does he have anything at all? IF the hall is paying you $35 and he's paying you $55 an hour, it is an unfortunate truth that a fair amount of that could easily be eaten up by the tax man and the need to save for retirement in an effort to make up for the loss of retirement benefits.
Last, how is his staying power? LOts of businesses look good for the first few years. Then along comes a little slowdown, and then? everyone finds out that the books haven't been managed so well and the rat needed to keep the wheel turning to keep making those Hummer H-2 payments.
My brother works for one of the oldest investment firms in the country. When he and I sat down to talk about business there were several ways in which I could make significantly more than I do in my current situation. unfortunately, when all things were weighed, every dime of that increase would be eaten up replacing things like my health insurance package and retirement package.
Every job and job offer looked like an adventure to me. Now that those college tuition payments start next year? I'm looking much more carefully these days.
Yeah I'm just a few years behind ya.
Those are things I'm considering as well.
I don't plan on swingin wrenches till I retire ---- this trade kills people early.
Like I told the other guy it has to be pretty much the "brass ring" for me to jump ship.
Although my national union pension is on the pay more get less scheme at the moment---- bout the same as SSI"can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
IMHO, there are too many people screwing up the Unions. Unions have a valuable role in safeguarding the worker, but instead they're more concerned about pumping another $2/hr out of the employer, or "that's not my job" or "tell it to my union rep", "I'm on break" crap.
Like a single bad cop giving all cops a black eye, the same goes for Unions. It only takes one or two to ruin the barrel.
Sorry I'm too tired to really say what I mean. Just a crying shame that people fart around and miss the point of the real mission of the union. Give the worker a voice, give 'em a good wage, give 'em safe working conditions, and give them a lifetime's employment. And in return the Union employee will return the favor by giving you top notch service and work. At least that is the way it is SUPPOSED to be.
Oh well, I'm hot and tired and need a shower.
jt8
""The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." --Dave Barry
I agree.
Being 4th gen in the local I have some history there.
I see them dumping more money into political campaigns that have nothing to do with what we do for a living.
& I'm not gonna get into the protected ones that don't care if the employer makes any money or not.
It's funny cause 90% of the employers are card carrying members of the local.
I have a shirt that says " I'm union cause I'm the best What's your excuse"
Needless to say I was asked not to wear that on jobsites or to the union meetings.
They said it was too antagonistic <sp>"can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
hahah...i want that shirt...that's great...i'm not union right now, but i was before i moved...gotta say the benefits and pay were great...from my experience if you worked hard, had a clue, and were there ontime everyday, you would be there till the job was done...if you were lazy and didn't have a clue, then you were too expensive to keep on the job...but i don't wanna get started with the whole union thing...
i just want that shirt
These days saftey orange is a must on 90% of my jobs.
I pretty much can't stand the vest, so I buy a lot of orange T shirts then either go down to the Tshirt shop & have somethin put on it or I'll buy the big black iron letters & do it myself.
One of my favorites----- " Trust me I do this all the time"
& ditto on the union comments------ I'll let it all hang out in the Tavern but up here I like to send & receive actual help."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
just curious after reading a few of these posts,
are any of the other GC's here paying plumbers rates that would put them in the 100K to 200K earning range ?
robert's comments about a one man operation working 30 hrs a week making 100K per year has me scratching my head. at 1500 working hours per year, my guess is that he would have to be billing at between $110-$150 per hour.
i have heard of a local guy that bills at that rate and he drives to his estimates in a new Porsche 911. if i were a customer, i think that might be a red flag.
my point is that our customers force us to be competitive with our pricing. this means i have to look at every quote i get and determine whether i think their number is justified. i have to do this for all subcontractors including plumbers. i mentally run checks on their numbers based on my years of experience.
and i don't do it based on $110-$150 per hour as a labor rate. because i can find at least half a dozen guys that charge half that.
and so can my customers. and my customers demand that i use subs that have rates which are fair and customary. or they will get someone else.
i'm wondering how the guy in silicon valley in the current thread would feel if his plumber said to him "$4400 - $6000 a week, flat rate, what do you think ?"
carpenter in transition
Edited 8/6/2006 11:15 am ET by timkline
Tim, plumbing repair work isn't the same as new construction or remod.
Customers don't have the luxury of soliciting bids, they need their toilet flushing or the hot water hot NOW!
The job goes to the biggest yellow pages ad that can get there first. If it's $200 for an hours work, so be it as long as it gets done.
I had a buddy with a Roto-Rooter truck in the mid 70's.
He was making $70K then, one van working alone 30 years ago.
Joe H
joe,
i see your point here.
a few years ago, one of the Porsche owner's employees ( a plumber ) was scoping out a job in a home that had a faucet leak. i had to go there the same day for different reasons, but i saw his big 3 ring binder which was filled with laminated pages of photos from catalogs of different faucets which the owner could choose from for his replacement.
each one had an installed price next to it.
my recollection was that a Moen tub faucet that cost the plumber (based on my knowledge) about $150 was listed as $1300 installed.
when the homeowner balked at the cost and sent the guy on his way, the plumber was obviously ticked. i didn't ask, but, i sensed there were sales commissions lost.
the problem i saw with this was that the plumber didn't have the faucet with him to install it "right now". it would have required ordering to obtain.
as a result, the homeowner decided to take baths in the meantime and get a better price elsewhere.
carpenter in transition
Yeah my union doesn't have much of a residential division & it is quite a bit cheaper per hour, although they say they are going after that part of the market.
If I was to be a "sub" it would be just for me, not having any employees. That was just somethin I was kickin around in my head.
This whole thing is just strange---------- I could see this guy goin after me if he had one of the several multi condo towers developments going in, but not really for a service orientated company.
I have a rule ----- I never say never----- & I entertain all offers.
So we'll see what this guy is all about.
It pretty much has to be the brass ring for me to leave the union.
It would be completely starting over kinda----- not sure if I'm completely comfortable doing that I've been doing what I do for a long time."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
plumb... i think the guy is cutting edge
in our area, the plumbers and electricians cannot handle the service calls
neither the commercial ones ( which most want ) or the residential ones
the guys making all the money have one man vans and respond the same day
they charge big rates... but stop thinking about how much YOU would pay if you washing machine/ toilet/ shower doesn't work
instead think about how much the two-income family will pay for same day service
if this guy is trying to set up an operation like that , then he needs a licensed guy on board
find out what his business plan is.. if he's got a good one , you might want to hitch your wagon to his his horse
here's a shining example of what i'm talking about:
http://www.gemplumbing.com/01history/index.aspMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good points.
I'm keeping an open mind & gonna try not to over analyze the deal before I meet with the guy."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
Ive never had a plumber charge by the hour for new construction. My current plumber averages 8 to 1200 per day for himself and an apprentice on new work. They bid by the job but from my observations thats what he averages for the days spent on my jobs. Plumbers are easily the best paid tradesmen in my area.
It's typically $65/hour here, new construction or remodel, although on a rare occasion you can get a bid on new work. When I left CA three years ago it was closer to $80/hour, and I think the guy actually doing the work got about $30.
That's cheap.
Down in Seattle I think the bid rate is just a bit over that, but T & M jobs I see them charging about 100 to 125 per hour."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
Mine charge by the fixture. An average 2 and 1/2 bath house runs around 3600 to 4 thousand for labor and includes pipe and fittings. Usually takes two days to lay it out and rough in and another day to install fixtures. Sometimes more. I like the way they bill because I can easily estimate what he is going to charge me by spending ten minutes with the plans.
I used to bid that way, & still use it to check my #'s for a guideline.
Back in the early 90's when I did estimating full time----- $1400 per fixture for run of the mill smaller commercial jobs."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
I wish I could find your plumber. Just today I had a guy install a cast iron tub and fixture and move the sink rough 16" today. Nothing in his way, good to go and all material (top quality) supplied for him. 2 guys 6 hours = $1,950 includes the finish.
I AM in the middle of a booming market and it IS a high rent district. I said "look, I'm not a nickle/dimer, and I dont mind paying a fair price. I just dont like the feeling like I'm gettin shafted". then I said get it done, NOW!
Wow, that IS a lot for 12 hours labor only... or do they owe you a return trip to trim out?
Tim,
Competetive is relative. For example, not more than an hour from you and I live, my brother has used a local handyman when my father and I are too busy.
$110 for the first hour, $85 for each additional hour. HE's booked 40 a week and about four weeks out.
I know a few guys, both Plumbers and Electricians who just do service and emergency work. $150 for the first hour and $100 each additional. They respond in a time frame of between 1 hour and 1 day.
The bill never says $150 an hour, but that's how it shakes out.
And, the best part is? Two service calls a day equals two "$150 first hours" so six billable hours turns out to be $700 a day and $3500 a week.
I'm in the wrong business.
If he wants to pay you that much then Im sure he wouldn't mind letting you look at his books and see what's really going on.
Showing me what he charges----- I could see that , but showing me what he makes--------well that would be a first in my lifetime."can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
Isn't this the real fear you have that he can not support the salary he has offered and you would need to restart your career of he failed. If he's willing to pay you 200,000.00 a year then i'm sure he would be glad to hear you want to make sure his books are in order and there is a viable plan. The whole deal sounds flaky to me. I would be glad to pay someone that kind of money as long as "we" have a plan that can be followed and works. Please update us on what his plan is and how it works.
Edited 8/6/2006 10:03 pm ET by shellbuilder
I will post more after I meet with him.
Flaky?
Hell yeah----- if it was one of the big 3 ( big mech contractors in my area) I wouldn't even bat an eye.
Oh crap------ I said I was going to keep an open mind----- see what yer makin me do-------LOL"can you cross your legs were short a nail" Pontius Pilate
Short and sweet -
Sounds like a bunch of nonsense. "Yeah, stick with me and you'll never have to work any more..." B.S. You've bween around the block. C'mon.
If he can't show you the goods, (I'll bet he can't), thank him for the meal and walk.
You are a known commodity in an entirely different arena. You have what it takes and there's nothing to research. Now, he wants you to back him up? I really don't think so --- unless maybe there's something more in this for you?? Keep your business up and running; do his too. If everything works out in two years, merge. if not, shake his hand and walk.
I'm not union, but it sounds like you don't have to be either. Find a way to deal with them. And hey - good luck whichever way you go.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals