For those of you that do remodeling, renovation, do you have a job size (in dollars or even scope of work) minimum? By that I mean what point will you not take a job? i.e. some of you may not hang one door but you would hang ten or a deck thats 25 squre feet may be too small.
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It all depends on the customer and my business and my current state of dollars and time.
If it is a repeat customer then I would do almost any job because I will keep them calling me and referring me.
If I am slow I take it to keep busy.
If I am too busy I ask if they can wait.
If i am low on cash . I'll shovel manure!
But option 1 is always take everything you can get because nothing builds a good business like referrals.
There are handyman jobs which are usually better served by that kind of skilled, self employed person. The homeowner gets personalized service from a retired guy who doesn't mind doing $50+ jobs to supplement his retirement income and stay in touch with his working life. That's a win-win way to handle it, for everyone in the picture.
If I hadn't planned my retirement around building on properties I've acquired over the last thirty-some years, I would likely be doing handyman work now. It would be a simple pleasure, just using the many skills I've learned over the years on small repair-replace jobs. The social side of such work could be diverting as well.
So support your local handyman and he'll return the favor, when the jobs are more than he wants to tackle.
hey Hudson, I hate to hijack this thread but when is the auction? I picked up several gems up there in years past
<<hey Hudson, I hate to hijack this thread but when is the auction? I picked up several gems up there in years past>>
And I hate to ask but, "WhadafugRUtalkinabout"?
The hudson valley farm & equiptment auction, in Hudson
We are primarily a kitchen and bath remodeler now. But we still do jobs as small as $75. $65 fort he first hour and $50 an hour afterwards. We don't give up big stuff to do that but we will do it if we have a guy free. And we almost always have someone available within a weeks time for small stuff. Pay ok if you can book a few in a day and it get the name around. A lot of them will call later with something bigger. DanT
I can see a sole prop/handyman doing that and making money, but by the time you calculate the required time and effort for paperwork, employment expenses, and various other time consuming work in prep for the job, it doesn't seem to me to be a very viable exercise for a legitimate company with multiple employees. (Better than they sitting on their hands, I suppose, unless the expenses of such a short job doesn't cover the required profit.)
But it works for you?
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I disagree to an extent.
We have 7 guys in the field, me in the office, and the owner. So we're not huge but we're not small time either. In our market were probably the second largest both in volume and employees.
I'll take small jobs, we have a $100 minimum and bill at $60 an hour plus 25% on top of materials for small jobs. The caveat is the people have to be willing for me to fit in the job when it works in my schedule. There are always times when I can have someone take care of a one or two hour job, usually within a week. Some of the smaller jobs, around an hour or less, I take care of myself when I have the time, not often though.
It provides a service for our existing customers who trust us as well puts a foot in the door with potential new customers.
On top of that it's highly profitable on a job by job or hourly basis for us. The key for me is fitting it into what works for me vs. what the customer demands.
You mentioned you find it profitable. In terms of rate structure, how do you adjust rates compared to your bigger jobs. I have been contemplating setting up one guy to do handyman stuff. I could easily see charging double what I do on big jobs for labor rates and double the markup on materials. How do you handle this?
Bruce
On larger scale jobs we use a blanket markup which makes are labor rate approximately $50.
For small jobs and T&M we charge 60 per hour and materials plus 25%, while our labor rate is at the top of the scale around here more people complain about the materials mark up.
I've been attempting to convince the boss to change to a Capacity based mark up that Jerrald Hayes recommends but that's another discussion.
I find it more profitable because there is less risk, it's billed hourly, so we make our money no matter what, and it's usually in and out in a matter of hours. One of the key's is being ready for the job, having materials when you show up and the tools you'll need so you do not waste time going to get them.
Our guys usually have a full compliment of tools on their truck and most small jobs I can stock with misc. material left in the shop from another job.
So these replies bring up a good question...How do you guys that do these small jobs present the billing?
Do you tell them an houlry rate and then a guess at the time involved or give them a full out written estimate for the entire job? If so, is this done on site or over the phone before ever visiting the job?
I know these sound like basic questions but just trying to determine what works for you guys.
Thanks
"So these replies bring up a good question...How do you guys that do these small jobs present the billing?"
Jobs like these I will estimate in the manner of "sure I can have a guy over Friday, typically we charge $65 for the first hour and $50 an hour afterwards. The faucet will be about $130 and the material needed for the install about $15. So the total would be around $225-250. That will need to be paid as soon as the job is complete."
I then write up a Data sheet (in house name lol) that spells out where, when, how and how much along with the conversation. Whole thing take 10 minutes tops. Give the Data sheet to the guy, he picks up the parts on the way, if we haven't already picked them up, and takes care of it. We live in a small town so travel anywhere is 10-15 minutes tops. DanT
<<So these replies bring up a good question...How do you guys that do these small jobs present the billing?
Do you tell them an houlry rate and then a guess at the time involved or give them a full out written estimate for the entire job? If so, is this done on site or over the phone before ever visiting the job?>>
In the past, when I got calls for small service jobs, I'd listen to their description of the problem, and ask any questions that came to mind. Then I'd tell them my hourly rate, my minimum hours for a service call (including driving time one way), and finally give an estimate for time and materials. I'd be careful to explain that anything unforseen would be an additional charge.
I'd always end with the courteous phrase, "On small jobs like this, I like to be paid in cash, when I've finished the work. Will that be OK with you"? When the answer was affirmative, I'd give a day and time. And I'd call again, the day before, to confirm the appointment. When I was finished I'd hand write a bill on my company bill head and present it for payment. Seldom had a problem getting paid.
Depends on the job, usually no matter what I'll stop by and look at, that way I can make the material list and have someone pick it up. I type up a small set of specs either from the phone call or after I stop by that lists the work to be done, our estimated time and estimated materials charge. They sign it and for anything more an hour I take a deposit of some fashion or another.
I tell new callers our rates over the phone, we are more then most of the competition so I'm not wasting anyones time by letting them know up front what we charge.
I try to have the T&M contract ready when I show up so I can get in and out in about 15 minutes for smaller stuff. I just recently printed out a bunch of blank T&M contracts so I can fill out those when I'm there, they either sign and give me a deposit or they say "I'll think about it" at which point I tell them to call me if and when they're ready. If they don't sign it then they never do.
I normally tell them an hourly rate and guess at the time, or I will tell them a flat rate, which I figure out on the fly. I don't give written estimates on small jobs. I'll quote small jobs over the phone.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
I guess it depends on your set up. I'll horde small jobs until I can schedule a few days, then knock them out by the carload. But I charge a minimum 4-hour for the work. If it takes longer than 4, then the hourly charge applies. Rarely does it take that long, however, and there have been days I can knock out 6 or 8 of these small potatoes.
But I'm a single operator of an LLC; and I was just wondering about the economics of it for a larger business. But it sounds like scheduling is key to success in either case
.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Nick, if we end up with several small jobs at once I do the same, scheduling them all at once.
I like your idea of a four hour min.
Either way, scheduling is the key.
I know if I could run our schedule more efficiently we'd be more profitable, something I'm working on.
I'm pretty much on your page. When I was a PM I would pile up a bunch of little stuff in my back pocket . Inevitably there would be a day when I would need to pull 1-2 guys off of something bigger--usually when a sub was running behind or an owner didn't make their selections--and presto, Bob can you take care of Mrs. Smith, and Joe how about you deal with Mr. Jones. Of course some guys want the rest of the day off in those situations but a lot want their 8 hours.
Right now I have a list of about 6 people that want small stuff on my white board. Man, I really don't feel like doing any of it. Gimme the rest of the day off.
I have 7 guys, 8 starting tommorow. One of my guys is a shop guy. Keeps the shop up, changes oil in the trucks, runs the pony motors, and once a day he calls the other jobs and gets a list of material they need and goes and gets it. That way they can just load in the morning and go.
A lot of the change a faucet work is handled by him first thing in the morning. Also if I have a guy done on Thursday and not due to start a job till Monday I will send him out on one or two. That way he still has time to clean the truck and get stuff ready to go for Monday.
Do we make big money at it? No. But the shop guy does one or two a week and that pays about half his salary. The rest is made up in money he saves us. DanT
Like Hudson Valley, for existing or past clients who were good clients and are good referrers, we do anything, often free. The best marketing dollar spent. For new clients we'll consider projects on the order of a few days. Anything less, it is not that profitable.
Bruce
We do about 50/50 remodeling/additions and new custom houses. For us to make money at a reno it usually has to be at least a $25K project, $40K is more comfortable. We do repair work for past clients and their referalls but that's it. Whenever we break this rule it bites us. We have 14 carpenters including me and the two other foremen, two architects, an office manager, and the owner.
"This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig
Small jobs that produce little profit often lead to large jobs with no competetion. I have bumped plenty of big guys out of the picture because of what they can't do.
Customer perception is everything, If you can't hang a single door... how can you build an addition?
Interesting replies. I guess if we had some employees, we could adopt some of those strategies.
Thanks
I've been relatively slow this year and i've always taken any size job, but now if you need something small its $100 to see me plus parts.
A service call is a service call. The small ones are worse than the big ones. You have to go out to look, then go buy what you need. Usually when i'm done with a small job the $100 seems cheap.
Edited 4/1/2007 7:19 pm ET by MSA1
I take it all! Id rather stay busy than doing nothing, also mine is first come first served so all projects wait in line. I stay booked 2 weeks out and let homeowners know what time frame to expect. People seem to like someone who is always busy, makes em feel like they hired someone who is popular. its all mind games.
For small jobs to be as profitable as larger ones, any and all costs need to be accounted for, especially time spent running around finding parts and travel to and from the site, which can be a significant percentage of the total time.
If someone has a job that takes even a few minutes it doesn't make us more or less money than our main jobs. I can stop what I'm doing at 10:15 am, drive 15 minutes to a job, diagnose and make a materials list, drive to the lumber yard, eat lunch, return and finish the job, and drop by our main site for the last hour of the day. The result is that all 10 hours in the work day are accounted for and get billed. Even the time to write up invoices is billed separately so we aren't out anything. Win-win.
If someone baulks at it, I simply remind them that we're booked solid and it has to work out financially or we're better off not taking the job.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I try not to take small jobs any more.
Used to.
the few times I do now ... I start out with a half day minimum.
things are either billed at whole or half days.
either $150 or $300 ...
plus 25% on any and all material.
"big or small ... we'll do it most"
I know most will say smaller jobs lead to bigger jobs ... but I've found that people tend to either consider you big time or small time.
even people I've done bigger things for will call a "handyman" for the smaller stuff.
if they asked ... I'd gladly do it ... but I'm not gonna be the one to suggest it.
That ... and the smaller stuff drives me nuts.
I'm not cut out to do handyman stuff. Not sure why ... but drives me nuts.
Got into a disagreement with a place I subbed for over that.
I'd been brought in to do kitchens ... they ran outta kitchen work so I was doing baths.
but they were so disorganized ... to fill the time I blocked off for them, when in the end they weren't ready ... they had me run around doing all their punch list.
Worked great for them ... as I was wrapping up all their loose ends ... but not what I signed up for. Told them one day I had to pull off ... just let me know when a full bath job ... or the elusive kitchen .. was ready and I'd be there.
Guy got mad they "I was too good for them" ...
suddenly ... my prevoius work was no good ... fighting about invoices ...
and I'll see them shorty in court!
so be careful about doing smaller jobs ... if that's not where U wanna end up.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I actively seek out smaller jobs---- I don't care if they take only 10 minutes.
since I discovered the concept of the "service call" I find they make more money per hour than anything else I do solo.
remember------MOST people don't WANT these calls--especially the bigger they are---that presents you with an opportunity.
If someone calls with a small job--that over the phone I can tell will take several hours---- I go out and price it like anything else.--but if it sounds like it is something that will take just a few minutes-------- then i mention we have a minimum service call charge of $90. In theory---driving there,back and doing the work--there is an hour gone anyway, right?----and $90 is what plumbers get here for a service call PLUS the labor--and plumbers don't have to generally climb ladders to do the work!
If you do them right---you save several of them up-and do them all in one day. you also plan ahead--and buy the materials-if any--when you are already at your supplier for another project. If you do them right--you can go out and bill $400-$500 and be home for the day by lunch time. I like to do a couple or 3 on fridays-plus estimate a few slightly larger jobs
OR--- if it's supposed to rain one day--and I am afraid to tear off a larger roof-- I will go out and do one or two of these BEFORE the rain is due to start.
I can tell you also-------- it almost always generates referalls if you handle these little things properly---maybe not immediately---but almost ALWAYS--you get more business out of them, their neighbors, their co-workers--their relatives-----could be next week,next month, 3 years from now----but it WILL come. Can't tell you how many times I have re-flashed one guys chimney---and totally replaced his neighbors roof the next year.
BTW-- one thing particularly well suited to this is gutter work. regular gutter companies have bid the price of seamless K style gutters down so low-------- that they will only do the entire house---at $2.25/ft.
YOUR opportunity----is when a 30 ft. piece is damages--and NO ONE will replace it. I can't tell you how many times in the spring I go out and replace 3 or 4 ---30 ft. lengths on 3 or 4 seperate houses at $6-$7/ ft.---and the customers are ALL thrilled just to get the job done!
If you keep organized, stay moving, and combine trips to your suppliers------ you can do nicely with these small projects.
good luck, stephen
This is how I make a living.
I will do any size job and about 1/2 of my little ones generate repeat or referral work.
I also love working several jobs in the same area as I become part of the neighborhood.
Things like helping the neighbor catch the dog or fixing the gate while talking to a neighbor has payed off time and time again.
Another thing is you meet so many people and get to know a little about them that when something comes up that is out of your realm it sure is handy to be able to call a customer and ask for advice, and they love the fact that you would seek their advice.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
just saw your tag line and had to laugh. whenever i apply for a mortgage, i tell the loan officer to check unemployed,that way there is a chance i'll make some money someday. as self employed they think i'm at the bottom of the food chain. tell your family your a llc,they wont have a clue and it sounds impressive! larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.