Recently, I hired a guy that framed homes on Long Island, New York his whole career. He started with me on one house when we were about to start stick-framing the roof, and informed me that when we were to begin the next house, he would have to get used to the way that we built our walls, because in New York, they framed the walls differently. After the typical jobsite ribbing about not being in New York anymore, I began to think about what he meant. Having framed in three different states, and observing many more, how different could it be?
When we began the next house he explained a method called “jungle framing.” Let me try to explain. First, You nail all the shoe plates on the wall lines on the subfloor. You then lay the top wall plate and the top plate, nailed together on top of the nailed shoe plate, lay out the wall and begin toe-nailing the studs to the double top-plate. You cannot nail the bottom, or shoe plate, because like I said its already nailed to the floor. Essentially you have an incomplete wall.
You follow this sequence for the whole structure, until you have all the walls laying all over the place, creating a jungle of incomplete walls. And finally, you play a grown-up game of pick-up sticks and stand all walls, the ones on top first, at the same time
My question is, actually its two-fold, have any of you ever heard of this, and second can you please tell me how it is advantageous to build walls like this.
To me, who always keeps an eye on costs, it seems more labor intensive, it seems you use 50 % more nails, and it is extremely dangerous to walk around the house. All translating to higher costs, and lower profit.
Thanks.
Ocean State Builders, Inc.
Mike Gavrillen
My only limit is your imagination.
Replies
Not by that name, but the method has been described here before, I'm thinking by a guy from Jersey
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Yeah, he calls himself a framer but has never seen trusses.
David,Piffin said, " Not by that name, but the method has been described here before, I'm thinking by a guy from Jersey"You said, "Yeah, he calls himself a framer but has never seen trusses."Since I'm from NJ and I frame similar to what the OP is talking about but never heard of "Jungle Framing" before.Since I've described my method here already many times and started the stick frame vs trusses thread and I don't use trusses but I've never said that I've never seen trusses. Who are you referring to with your post?Joe Carola
I had you in mind but didn't use your name 'cause I wasn't absolutely sure.now that you're here, maybe you can review the advantages of this method for the OP guy when you get a chance.how's the next generation doing, Joe
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Piffin,This guy sounds like he had a bunch of maniacs building walls and stacking them on top of each other. I frame by nailing my bottom plates down and tacking the two top plates to the bottom plate and lay out the walls and then pull them back and toenail the studs and headers in and lift the walls and then toenail them to the bottom plates. It's fast efficient and easy. We also have sheathing crews to sheath for us.If the OP wants more info then he can ask me. It seems like his mind is already made up (maybe not because he's here asking) that it's a crazy way to do just by his post. I can send him links to this debate with sheathing walls first and sheathing later and how we to our plating.Thank you for asking about little Joey but he was in the hospital all of last week. He has food allergies and asthma and he had a bad asthma attack and his lungs were almost collapsed. So thank God he's home and we're keeping an eye on him. To top it all off he was getting oral steroids through a plastic syringe and the nurse dropped it on the floor and was going to stick the syringe in his mouth before my wife almost put her in the hospital. That's another story.......I guess the nurse didn't think that there's any germs on a hospital floor.Joe Carola
You frame the way I was taught, but I think I like Western better.There are still sheathing crews around? Legals?Sorry to here about your son. We went through something like this when my son was born. And several years ago he was diagnosed with something that in the end may not be that bad. But the way it was told us at first, and for the first several months, we thought it was a death sentence. It certainly deflates your ego thinking that no matter what you do you can't save your kid.We tried a few natural things for his asthma and excema (all over his hands). Grape seed extract, PC95 where I get it, is an anti-oxident.
MSM is dietary sulfer which helps him some when he takes it and me when I take it. It is supposed to help with allergies, asthma and arthritis.Hope all goes well. Vent here. i think you have a good enough rep here that no one would take it personally.Good luck.Glenn Moore
"There are still sheathing crews around? Legals?"Yes, there are sheathing crews around. The ones I use are legal.Where are you from?Thanks for the kind words for my son. He is allergic to all dairy products and peanut butter. His eczema isn't as bad as it was when he was little. When he was about 1-1/2 years old my wife came out of the shower and saw blood all over him. He was chewing on his hands because they were so itchy and we had to take him to the hospital and he touched his mouth and his eyes and got fever sores all over his mouth and eyes. It was a mess. We had to wrap his hands 24/7 and change the dressings three times a day with ointments and put eye drops in his eyes three times a day. His face looked like someone poured acid on him. People would ask us if he was burned.The allergist prescribed a Peak Flow Meter for him to test every morning for 10 days blowing in it three times and then marking down what the highest number was. Then we'll go back and see her and get his average number and use that in case he starts coughing at night. If his number is 200 for example and we check him and it measures 170 then we have to give him his inhaler with albuteral.What triggers him is the cold weather. He's alright with sports. We think there's something in my sister-in-laws basement that triggers him because my brother-in-law just finished it and every time Joey goes down there to play with my nephews he starts coughing. It could be the scotchguard in the carpet or the doctor said there could be phermaldahyde in the basement or carpet.I'm definitely going to check into some natural things also.Thanks again.Joe Carola
I live in Wanaque, where DW grew up- although they all think Brooklyn is still Utopia.But I like to say I'm FROM Pequannock. I like Morris Co. better than Passaic. Taxes are too high. But, being in Essex Co, you know what that is like.Your son sounds worse than mine. Haven't found an allergist/asthma specialist who did anything good for him.Last guy poo-pood me when I talked about things like MSM. Peeved me off big time. You know, he's a Dr., I'm just...me. 'Give me a month.' That was 3 or 4 years ago. Still has excema. Wife wants me to take him there. Told her ' If you'll go my bail, I'll do it. 'cause I'm gonna hit him!'She takes him.
"Last guy poo-pood me when I talked about things like MSM. Peeved me off big time. You know, he's a Dr., I'm just...me. 'Give me a month.' That was 3 or 4 years ago. Still has excema. Wife wants me to take him there. Told her ' If you'll go my bail, I'll do it. 'cause I'm gonna hit him!"I take it that would would've hit this nurse that was going to stick the syringe in my son's mouth after dropping it on the hospital floor like I wanted to do also.I've been talking GLUCOSAMINE/CHONDROITIN/MSM for years now for my joints. I could tell you stories that will make your head spin about what I did to have my son. I had to do Invetrofertalization four times for seven years I'm the one who had the problem and after years of taking herbs and walking around with daisy duke shorts and no underwear in the summer (yes, no underwear)I was doing what it takes to have a baby. I could care less what the guys thought when I was working over them.....;-) They complained and busted me but we all laughed.I was going to the San Genaro feast in n New York and walked pasted a Chinese Herbal Store and went in and told the lady what my problem was and she called in a Chinese doctor who spoke no English and he checked my pulse for 2 minutes and checked my tounge and told me what I needed to produce sperm and he went behind the counter where there's about 50 draws with everything you can imagine in there.He laid down 14 pieces of wax paper and lunch bags and started throwing all kinds of stuff on each piece. I mean there was stuff that looked like roots, berries, tree bark, tar, roof shingles, seeds, white stringy stuff, leaves...etc. My wife and I looked at each other and said could you imagine after drinking this tea if it ever worked.He gave me 14 bags to take home and boil one bag in 7 cups of water for one hour in and strain it and then re-boil it in 6 cups of water for another hour and then pour it into a 8oz cup and drink it before bed and save the rest and drink another cup the next morning. The first night I boiled this when I was pouring the tea into a strainer over the sink some of the were stuck and I shook the pot and all the boiling tea pored on my left hand but I never let go of the strainer and my wife was screaming at me to do so as I'm grabbing any seeds and God knows what else fell into the sink and throwing in back into the bowl because in my crazy mind one of those pieces of seeds or bark could've been my kid, so nothing was going to waste. After I did that I had to take a trip to St Barnabas Burn Center with 2nd degree burns on my hand and I had to where a rubber glove and change the glove 2 times a day with a special burn cream. This stuff smelled so bad that my friend who lived upstairs from me wanted to come down a fight me because he couldn't take it. He used to bang on the floor when I was cooking it and my wife and I would crack up. I even offered him a cup.I did this for one month and I felt like superman and went to Cornell in New York and gave a sample and found out that I had 526 sperm which I compared to every other time I gave a sample I had O. I kept drinking this tea for another month and did the procedure and I had enough sperm and now my son Joey is 7 years old today and loves Chinese food. The day I found out about my results I drove to NY to go see the Chinese Doctor and he happened to be walking down the street when I came flying down the street doing 90 crying with joy. I skid up in my truck smashing into the curb and get out running at the Doctor picking him up over my head hugging him and kissing him telling him that I love him almost breaking him in half screaming at the top of my lungs that I have sperm no less. People are looking at me like I'm nuts. But I was so happy and went in and got more tea. I'll never forget that place or him or the owner. Sorry for the rant but I can right a book on those seven years and how much I appreciate that doctor. I had nothing for all those years until I met him and I believe all that tea worked. I was training Jiu-Jitsu in New York at the time I was drinking that tea and picking people up like they were rag dolls and felt like an animal. Some of the guys thought I was taking steroids. Whatever was in that tea, it did something.Joe Carola
Joe,That's a good story. I wish your family the best.Did the tea make you frame smarter and faster in addition to the increased virility?
Thanks Bluemoose.I actually felt a 100% better because this stuff just flushed out my whole system out and I wasn't tired or when I would bend over while framing sometimes my head would feel like it was going to explode. When I was training in NY my stamina was unbelievable. I stopped training because I didn't want to sweat and the heat wasn't good for me and also getting kicked or kneed between the legs wasn't't helping.Joe Carola
Joe,I live at one end of Mulberry so I live and breathe San Gennaro every year for 2 whole weeks. Impossible to park during that time.
My daughter had eczema also and my wife found some interesting cures in Chinatown as well. In fact I've found all kinds of novel stuff there from wart removers to cockroach repellents that actually work.Eczema and asthma are apparently connected, so we were quite concerned and tried alot of alternative therapies. Pretty convinced the early vaccinations were the cause, but that's a whole other discussion.BTW where did you train (Jiu Jitsu)?
The place I went to in Chinatown was "Tea's Herbal Inc" on Hester St.I'm glad to here your daughter is rid oth the eczema now. I'm curious as to what you gave her for it?"BTW where did you train (Jiu Jitsu)?"I trained in Manhattan with Renzo Gracie. He's from Brazil. He's first cousins with Roye Gracie who fought in The Ultimate Fighting Championships. Here's the link to his Academy.http://www.renzogracie.com/html/academy/location.aspxJoe Carola
I remember Roye Gracie, didn't realize his brother was here. I'll check out the link, thanks.My daughter isn't rid of her eczema, it's just much more localized, behind her knees and a little bit on her wrists. When she was a baby it was all over her face and parts of her body. We first used hydrocortizone, but prolonged use is not recommended since it is a steroidal ointment. Alot of focus has been on diet, my wife had made all her food from scratch, organic fresh vegetables pureed, etc. To this day (she is 6) her diet is carefully balanced, for example breakfast can alternate from rice (with a bit of cinammon and brown sugar on top) millet, oatmeal, etc. We tend to stay away from anything packaged, she has never drank juice, though she eats alot of fruit. My wife really educated herself into the world of nutritional science. Occaisonally she gets her fill of McDonalds and pizza (our local is Lombardi's in little Italy, argueably the best pizza in the city <g>). We did the Aveeno baths and stuff like that, currently have been using Eucerin cream and just started using Bert's Beeswax salve, the stuff carpenters use. We really treat it as a systemic issue more than a topical one. Hopefully she will grow out of it.
When Joey was little before we really new what he was allergic to we never realized that his food allergies would trigger his eczema. Once we had a handle on his diet his eczema wasn't as bad. If he had a reaction to something bang his eczema flared up. The problem with Joey is that not only is he allergic to eating dairy products or peanut butter, his skin is allergic to it also.When he was little he was always itching and his face was bright red and us not realizing it one Sunday I was eating macaroni with 100lbs of cheese on it as usual and he was sitting in my lap with a diaper on and I dropped a piece of macaroni on his thigh and bang hives all over that area. Same thing eating a piece of pizza, kiss him and hives on his face.That's when we went to the Allergist and found out what he was alergic too and how bad including his skin. Then we realized why his face was always red and getting hives because without us knowing we would kiss him after eating something dairy. Now we know.Joe Carola
Wow, that was quite a discovery. Hopefully he will out grow it as well, it can happen. Our daughter is allergic to peanuts and bananas. Found out that one when she was about 8 months. She ate a banana and developed hives right away, and her breathing became labored so we raced her to the Southhampton hospital (during August Hamptons traffic no less) and the ER admitted her immediately and gave her a shot right away. We always travel with the EP pen now.
Do you do much work in the hamptons? My buddy does shower enclosures for ####builder out there named Michael Davis. Been out there a few times with him.Lots of investment bankers.
I don't do carpentry for a living much anymore, but I did work either out here or in the city. I just rebuilt my house out here last year, so I got to get my toolbelt on again. I have heard about Davies and see his signs up. He does pretty high end stuff I think.Yep, lots of investment bankers, movie stars, rock stars, opera stars, politicians, princes and princesses, etc. Everybody is somebody or thinks they are somebody.
We have the EP and benedril and also his inhaler in a bag that goes everywhere with us.Joey is alo allergic to peanut butter and always wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and then we found SoyNut Butter. We give him tha with Jelly and make him sandwiches. It tastes just like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich but peanut free and he loves it. Here's a link.http://www.soynutbutter.com/Joe Carola
Thanks for the link Joe. Hope all goes well with your son. If you make it out to Tipifest, maybe we can do a Tyvek demo for all the skeptics <g>.
My first resonse is- why don't you get more?But, if you are anything like me, you slack on the good things because they take more to do.I'm on anti-inflammatories now. My rotator cuffs apparently have been inflamed for ten years. Shoulders have hurt like heck. Sometimes chronic, sometimes acute. And acute REALLY hurts.Somtimes I take the things I mentioned to you and more (lots of pills a day) and other times I smoke like a chimney.Like David Lee Roth said decades ago (oh, that hurt) 'Sometimes I exercise and eat healthy, and sometimes it's a bottle of whiskey and twinkies.'
my son Joey is 7 years old today and loves Chinese food.Precious line there!
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" my son Joey is 7 years old today and loves Chinese food.""Precious line there!"You got that. The funny thing is that we just ate Chinese food. His favorite is Singapore Minfun and Steamed Chicken with Broccoli and Carrots with garlic sauce on the side.Joe Carola
"Last guy poo-pood me when I talked about things like MSM. Peeved me off big time. You know, he's a Dr., I'm just...me. 'Give me a month.' That was 3 or 4 years ago. Still has excema."How old is your son now? We use a skin cream called Vanicream and that seems to work the best for him. We used to use Elidel but it was recalled no less for something.When my son was little my wife would give him an Aveeno bath but now he showers with Aveeno body wash and his skin is pretty good now even though it's a little rough in the winters but the summers his skin is nice especially in the ocean with the salt water.Here's a couple pictures I took of the Vanicream and Aveeno. Maybe your wife uses it on your son.Joe Carola
Just asked DW. Tried both. I remember Aveeno. Didn't remember the other. They all work for a short while. Drugs are the same. Whenever something new comes out, it's tried.
He turned 9 in Jan. Unfortunatly, I passed my eye problems on to him. So he sucks at sports and running and anything that requires coordination. I feel bad for him because i know what it was like for me.I tried teaching him how to hammer nails this week. he sucks, but so did I, so there is hope.
joe...and tashler
for the excema... check out Melaleuca.. both the oil & the Renew..
my dad & sister have always had it bad.. but i developed it last winter too.. the itching was so bad i was raw & bleeding..
but two weeks of the Renew got me all cleared up
http://www.melaleuca.com/
my daughter put me onto it... the oil is especially potent for quick healing of cuts , scratches , and raw skin
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,Thank You for that website. I just printed soem stuff out for my wife and she will go on the website also. I'll check it out also to see if they have anything for my Framers wrinkles on ny face.........;-)Joe Carola
joe.. my daughter sells Melaleuca in Charlotte.. so i don't have much choice.. i'll tell you this, all of their products are based on the melaleuca oil from the australian tea tree... she's very much into natural medicines since there are lots of things she can't use from the pharmaceutical industry
here's a good site
http://www.life.ca/nl/52/teatree.html
be aware that the use around birds is potentially deadly..
and some humans have allergic reactions to it
http://www.exoticbird.com/gillian/teatree.html
i've used BagBalm in the past..
and i've used "Udderly Smooth" which you can get at Walmart, which was my favorite until now
neither gave the same relief as the Melaleuca "Renew" .... this is the first winter in 4 years that i haven't had any itching since going to a daily application of Renew
and i was astounded at the fast healing of cuts and abrasions with the application of the melaleuca oilMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for that, Mike. After all the creams and bath additives we've tried for the past 7 or 8 years, I hope this works. If it stops the itching and the kids in school saying things, it would be worth alot more.
tash.. be aware.. the Melaleuca thing is a whole line of household products.. all promoting the removal of chemical poisons from the home..
laundry soap..bath soaps.... cleaning supplies..skin care.... yada, yada, yada..
having come of age in the Amway .../.... BestWay age of pyramid sales , i assumed my daughter was getting sucked in by another marketing collossus..
but, so far the products are everything they say..
this is about the 2d year we are an all Melaleuca household
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/4/2006 1:51 pm ET by MikeSmith
Let me make sure I've got it right.
You used the Renew Bath oil and the Renew Intensive Skine Therapy lotion?
no... just the Renew lotion...
i also use their bath soap.. the oatmeal one.. and the gold bar..
i use their concentrated oil for healing irritated areas... like if my face gets chapped... or i get a blood blister from hitting my thumb with the hammer
the Renew lotion i use on shins,knees, elbows, shoulders & face.... all the areas that last year were raw and bleeding from constant itching.. now .. zero itchMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I love tea tree oilos, so I am making notes about this too. May touch base on the subject personnally when the time comes.
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paul.. i'd be glad to answer any questions .. or i can have Marianne get me some samples for youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I can't find the oil on the website. Do you remember where it is?
the oil comes in 1 oz. bottles " Melaleuca Oil T36-C5"...
and Marianne recommends the bath oil tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Joe,
I'm glad little Joey is home. I know how much he means to you and your wife. I'll be thinking about you guys. I hope he gets better soon, so he can start hefting that 10" Makita and get back to packing studs for you :-)
Man, ya gotta know when you're being ribbed! I'm just poking a little fun at the way some guys took that truss v. stick thread.
"Man, ya gotta know when you're being ribbed! I'm just poking a little fun at the way some guys took that truss v. stick thread."David,My mind is not all there. I have to admit though, sometimes it doesn't sound like someone is busting or I don't get it when someone is busting. You think some of these threads get carried away sometimes................;-)Joe Carola
I knew a guy that used to frame like that.
He also biscuit-joined his cabinets together and installed them as one big unit.
I think he's a professional beachcomber in Baja now.
DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
Part of that is quite common for the contractors I've worked for here in NJ. Nailing down the first plate, towing the second to it, then nailing the third to the second. Do all the plates, then lay out. Pull back the top two plates of the outer walls, build them put them up, secure, then do the interior walss, from longest to shortest. Most guys I know do it that way.
I prefer what was taught to me 15 years ago as Western framing. Seems some of the guys here had gone out west and picked this up. Probably nothing new to you guys.
Layout walls, windows and doors on the subfloor. Take 2 plates, no nauls, transfer layout to plates. Pull one back, fill with studs, headers, etc. Nail bottom plate to the line, square it up, sheath it, put it up. Even worked on gable walls, with the rafters in place.
If you do something different, please explain it to me. I'm always looking for a way to get better.
That's the way I do it and that's also how I've seen it done on Long Island.
Which way- the Western or the other?With the other way, you're pushing up walls with all the studs loose on the bottom.Some guys here don't like Western because you face nail through the plates, and don't think that is as strong as toe nailing the studs.I think that with all the weight on top, it shouldn't make much difference.
Tash,The Western, but I learned it in Ontario, so I consider it Eastern.<g>In some case I toe nail by hand after the walls are up in addition to end nailing with a nailer when the walls are laying down.
I forgot to add, out in Eastern Long Island, the hurricane zone code requirements are now in effect, so we have to strap everything from ridge to sill plate. That means you have stand them up without sheathing which is a real PITA, though I've seen guys put the strapping over the ply, so I guess some still do sheath on the deck as well. I prefer to have the strapping under the ply since it can cause obstructions to the siding.
I must be dense today but I'm not getting this jungle framing. When I frame (not often, but often enough), every crew I've been on we tack two plates together, do the layout, split 'em and drop studs between; two guys zip along each plate with guns face nailing into the stud ends; drop in/fasten trimmers, headers, subsill, cripples; square the wall then sheath; lift the wall it's done. On to next wall.
Are you guys saying you nail all the bottom plates to the deck and then build walls with no bottom plate, then lift them onto the bottom plate? I'm just not getting a mental picture of this.
Thanks.
Nor I. I've only ever seen it done the way you describe.
You're doing what I was taught as Western framing. I think what Joe Carola does is the way I was originally taught- nail the first plate down , tack the second to it, nail the third to the second.Pull the top two back and toe nail the top end of the studs to the middle plate. Push it to the bottom plate and tilt it up. Studs, headers, king studs, but no cripples, sills or liners.The bottoms of the studs are loose, hit the plate, there's your fulcrum.We never piled up the walls on top of each other. But that is the way most guys I know frame here.With the Western, we even did chimney chases. First floor, then when doing the second floor, we did the rest of the chase all the way up. better than climbing up there.
Edited 3/3/2006 10:08 am ET by Tashler
Now I get it. Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I've been doing it the Western way in the East, and I can't picture doing it differently.
Now I see what the OP is after -- what are the advatages of each over the other?
Edited 3/3/2006 11:44 am ET by philarenewal
The way I learned it from my father many years ago is:
Tack the sole plate and lower top plate together on edge. Measure and mark them for studs, R.O.'s, etc. Separate them, put the sole plate near where it goes, and the lower top 8 ft away. Fill in with studs, face nailed thru both plates. Temp brace against racking with one by scrap, if necessary. Sections with let-in 1x4 don't need it, you put in the let-in first. Stand and temp brace plumb in final position. Run blocking. Build and stand the next piece of wall, then tie them together with the upper top plate. Face nail the upper top to the lower over the studs so that plumbing and electrical won't drill into the nails.
-- J.S.
The basic principle is the Western framing i was taught.We would do the headers, cripples, sheathing and top plate before we stood the walls up.We would toe nail the bottom plate at the line so that when the wall was lifted it wouldn't travel.
down here in south texas we usually nail down all bottom plates then lay top plate next to them and pull the same layout on th top & bottom.then we end nail the tops of the studs through a single plate and then attatch the double top. then we stand the studs up onto the bottom plate and toenail them in.
I just dont understand this jungle framing. Is it two 2x on bottom with one on top or 2 botttom and 2 top. if one on top how to do tie the walls together. I have always use one treated on bottom with stud end nailed on top of anchor bolts, one on top end nailed and then another to tie the walls together. with two wont that screw up your drywall height. 2+3=7
the finished wall is the same wall you are used to
a shoe and a double top plate, the double top plate is nailed together.. they simply nail the shoe to the deck right off
then they tack the double plate on top of the shoe.. SO THEY CAN DO LAYOUT..
after it's marked they take the dbl . top plate off and move it a stud's length away from the shoe... they lay the studs in place
then they toenail the studs to the top plate
when all the studs are toe nailed to the top... they skid it into contact with the shoe that is nailed to the deck and using the shoe as the pivot, they stand the wall up and set it on the shoe.. .. at this point , all the guys are toenailing thier own studs to the shoe.. when all the studs are nailed , they plumb and line and brace the wall..
later the sheathing crew appears by magic and they install all the sheathing..
sheeeessh.. i've never done it , but i figgered it out from joe's description
you're doin a hell of a job , brownie .....
heh, heh, hehMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That is pretty much it. But for me, the magical sheathing cew was the framers.
also, this jungle framing, they're building all the walls before putting ANY up. Not the way it is usually done.
Never done it?!!! You talk like a rookie!
Ive done it in some very limited situations. For instance, if I'm framing an 8' tall wall in a 6' x 7' room, I might entertain this idea, letting the studs dangle out into an adjoining room.
Personally, I don't like doing this, but there must be a good reason for those that do it.
I have a question for jungle framers, or those that sheath later: if you nail the shoe down tight, and the floor is admittedly wavy, varying as much as 1/4 or perhaps 1/2" up and down, how do you keep the top straight for up and down? Do you leave gaps on the bottom of the studs? Do you ship the studs? Do you put fat Freddie up top on the wall and bring the top down out of level?
Lots of questions.
Mike, since you figured out the other...maybe you can figure this out.
blue
no...u da rookie...
if i'm framing an 8' tall wall in a 6'x 7' room ,i'll just nail the shoe, nail the plate & toe nail them one stud at a time
as for your question.. once the walls are stood, you line & plumb them.. which means you also line them for up and down...
sheeesh...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've been following this thread and for the life of me I can't understand the advantage of lifting a wall with the bottom of the studs loose like that. What am I missing here?
why you guys asking me ? we build 'em on the deck and sheath them on the deck..
i was just describing joe's method... and i can see certain things that i like about it.. main problem is we sheath them on the deck Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Probably always did it that way there. In colonial times the studs were mortised into the top and bottom plate. Everything was heavy so they laid the top plate (bent?) on the ground, slid the top of the studs in place, pounded in the trenails, then put the wall up, studs coaxed into position in the sill, it drops in, then it is locked in place.
You couldn't put the studs in if the top was in place, so it was easier to do it that way rather than having the sill attached. And the sills were mortised and lapped at the corner, sitting on rocks and whatnot, so they were put in and leveled up beforehand, so it was easier than moving a super heavy wall around on a less than ideal foundation.
See those yankee types are very stubborn, and resistant to change, so they still do it that way, but with skinny little toenailed studs.
Now strapping, that goes back to colonial times when they had those wavy walls and ceilings, and no one sold drywall, so they put up lath for plastering. Well along comes drywall, and the whole western USA says to heck with strapping. But no, not the yankees! They put up strapping still, but instead of using drywall like everyone else, they have to have their blueboard and skimcoat plaster because, well they always used plaster.
Also in colonial times there were no republicans, so the yankees....
Now I get it. Thanks. So it isn't Bush's fault. LOL
if i am framing a house and know the weather is going to be bad .Snow rain
i will chalk all lines on the floor nail the sole plates to the floor.then nail the studs to the top plate .stand walls then toe nail.that way i wont lose my lines
Everything Mike said.Here's what the plates look like before the layout marks. The bottom plate is nailed to the deck and the second plate is tacked to the bottom plate and the third plate is nailed to the second plate.Joe Carola
Okay Joe...now that you've posted those pics, I have more questions.
How do you get your top plates to lay flat when your framing if you have already nailed the shoes down. Do you untack the shoes and temporarily move them out of the way, or do you shim the entire wall up 1 1/2", or do you just fight it and leave one end up in the air and the other on the deck?
blue
"How do you get your top plates to lay flat when your framing if you have already nailed the shoes down. Do you untack the shoes and temporarily move them out of the way, or do you shim the entire wall up 1 1/2", or do you just fight it and leave one end up in the air and the other on the deck?"I start out with the two longest walls first and raise them and then the two side walls afterwards because they lap over the long walls.Nothing to fight when I pull the two top plates back the laps will land on the nailed down shoes and the top of the top plate is laying flat facing the deck. Then I just stick drop off 2x4's on a flat so that the top plates are flush with the nailed down shoe under the sections where the headers go so the headers are level and the nail the headers onto the top plate with the headers facing up.Then I nail my king studs into the headers and toenailing into the top plates with them standing straight up towards the sky. Once all the headers are in and king studs are in I push the king studs until they hit the deck. Now the top plate is on edge and I drop all the studs in between the king studs and nail them up. I also nail the jack studs in and cut them off flush at the bottom. Once that's done I push the wall until the bottom of the studs hit the nailed down shoe and then lift the wall up.Once the wall is up I nail the bottom of a stud about 10' in or depending on what size walls they are and then nail a temporary brace on those two studs so that the wall doesn't go anywhere and then walk away a start on the next wall while someone nails off the bottoms of the studs on the wall we just lifted. Now I'll frame the second longest wall and then the two side walls and lift them into place and nail the last stud into the corner stud on the front and back walls which holds the whole wall in place and then walk away and start the inside walls while someone is nailing toenailing off the bottom studs.Now I'll frame the longest perpendicular walls running from to back and raise them lapping those joints over the top of the outside walls shooting the laps in and those hold the walls in place and then walk away and do the rest of the big walls lapping in the order they go. You want to raise the walls first that have to be lapped because it's easier lifting the walls up with the lap going over the second plate. As the walls are being framed the window sills and jacks are being cut. The headers are cut from all 20' 2x10 stock nailing the doubles together with a 2x4 cap on the bottom and laying out the headers so that there only inches of waste. Once all the headers are marked with the framing square I cut then with my 10" makita in one pass, naturally allowing for the saw blade thickness.Since all the outside walls go up first and nailed there a guy nailing in all the window jacks and sills. By the time the interior walls are framed the jacks and sills are done and the bracing starts. During this time the ceiling joist are being laid out two per bay. One being pulled up and is used for the back of the house and the other goes right above you in the front of the house after the walls are braced.Just wanted say that what I do isn't called Jungle Framing to all those out there who have never seen this tyoe of framing before.Joe Carola
Edited 3/4/2006 8:10 pm ET by Framer
It sounds to me like the studs would all be kinda loose and flopping around when you get the wall raised. If I'm understanding it correctly, it sounds like it would be like herding cats to do it this way. Having it all in one relatively solid and stable piece just seems a lot easier to handle. So, what are the advantages to doing this?
-- J.S.
>>"So, what are the advantages to doing this?"
I'm scratching my head on that question as well. Here is the best explanation I've seen so far.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70448.64
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
>>"So, what are the advantages to doing this?"I'm scratching my head on that question as well. Here is the best explanation I've seen so far.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70448.64That's an explanation?You can read my post to John above this link to Blue if you like.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70448.66Joe Carola
Joe:
I see what you do and it makes sense. I just don't see what its advantages are over "western" framing. A different way -- nothing wrong with it. But I'm still scratching my head about if one way is better than the other. Doing it your way the walls are lighter to raise, and easier to get flat. On the other hand, as the work gets higher, sheathing becomes a pain (the crew I work doesn't have the fancy lifts -- we erect scaffolds for siding but I'd rather not lift the sheet goods up there if I don't have to).
When I do it, we also frame the longest walls first and there's always plenty of room on the deck. We do the second top plate last (just the way we do it -- no need to juggle the wall around to lap the corners, and with the sheathing on it, it can be a heavy juggle).
For interior framing, I think I can see some benefits to framing with the bottom plates already nailed to the deck (if nothing else, would prevent any screw ups on what goes where).
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
"On the other hand, as the work gets higher, sheathing becomes a pain (the crew I work doesn't have the fancy lifts -- we erect scaffolds for siding but I'd rather not lift the sheet goods up there if I don't have to)."These sheathers don't use lifts. These guys fly up ladders like they're walking on the ground. Some guys carry two sheats of 5/8" at once up to the roof.Here's a shot of one sheather carrying the sheat on his head on an add-a-level I framed this past summer. This guys head is also flat.....;-)Joe Carola
Oh yeah. There was a sheathing crew working on a house two doors down from the one I was framing this winter. Just so happens they were latinos and I've never seen a group of guys work harder, faster, or braver. They also all had some sort of high pressure coil fed sheathing nailer that could cycle so fast it sounded like machine gun fire (never got a good look at them, but I think from the color they were Max brand).
Anyway, those guys did fly up and down ladders and dance across minimal scaffolding with sheets of 5/8" as if they were playing cards.
Unfortunately, my head is pointy so I can't do it that way. ;-)
As another recollection of watching those guys zip around, I said to my boss that if I had to keep up with that crew, I'd get fired in a day. He said if he had to work on that crew, he'd fire himself. Maybe you had to be there. It was funny.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/7/2006 6:40 pm ET by philarenewal
I've worked in the general area Framer works in. New Jersey, Probably through out Somerset, Morris, Essex, Bergen and even Warren and Hunterdon County. That sound about right Joe?
Anyway, you wouldn't even thnk about sheathing your own house in this area if you thought it thru. It's been a few years so I don't recall how much we used to pay a sheet. Could probably look it up if I were so inclined. I know it wasn't a lot, and hardly worth thinking twice about.
Anyway, I once watch a sheating crew sheet a 11,000 sqft Custom, mostly one story with a 12/12 hip roof. They showed up at 7:30 Am with three vans. Each person had a job. Some spread plywood. Some spread ladders. Some uncoiled hoses and cords. Then, they got down to business.
They had the walls and roof done and were wrapped up and headed home by 5:00 PM.
With that in mind, Toe-Nailing isn't so far fetched.
By the way, the name of the company was " Thunder Sheathing" and that's exactly what it sounded like while they were working.
Do you remember where Thunder sheathing is located or a phone number?Never hurts to have new contacts.
I don't off hand, but Dover New Jersey rings a bell. I'll have to look. It's been some time, but I might have a bill from them downstairs.
> Here's a shot of one sheather carrying the sheat on his head ....
Wow. I don't think I've ever had a day here in LA where the wind was low enough to let you do that. It's not that we get a lot of really hard wind, it's just that we pretty much never get an absolute dead calm. Interesting what turns up as regional differences.
As for raising walls without the sole plate, I guess I'd have to see an experienced crew do it. I trust you that it works, but since I work alone, I'm not going to try it. I eff up enough as it is..... ;-)
-- J.S.
John, I'd be concerned about kickout when raising a large heavy wall using loose studs.
Joe, when you raised that long heavy wall you talked about, what special considerations did you employ to eliminate the possibility of the wall kicking out on the bottom?
blue
My father and I live on long island. He used to build custom homes for a living and thats the way he always framed. When I asked him why he said the inspector liked to see all the toenailed studs. Face or edge nailing them you cant really see the nails. Also he said it help keep the studs from twisting. I thought it was weird too but I got used to it and it was never a big deal. Does anyone know of a sheathing crew that runs on Long Island? A name and number would be greatly appreciated.
where on island are you from??.." we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
"Joe, when you raised that long heavy wall you talked about, what special considerations did you employ to eliminate the possibility of the wall kicking out on the bottom?"When you slide the bottoms of every stud until it hits the nailed shoe, you just lift and go. The walls do not kick up. It has to sound crazy but they don't believe me.Once you hit the shoe everyone basically is pushing the wall into the shoe and pressing their wall up to their shoulders and then lifting higher. Once the top plate is higher than you can reach your one hand stays as high as it can on the inside of the stud and the other hand stays about waste high on the outside of the stud until the wall is lifted on top of the shoe. That's it.The consideration would be the technique you use to properly raise the wall and the position you’re in and the pressure you put up against the shoe as your lifting and your hand position balancing the wall.It just comes like second nature there really no thought to it at all after all these years. Even remembering after the first couple walls I raised when I first started framing.Even when you frame the walls in between that have to get lapped over the main walls. There's a guy at each end holding the end stud. One guy stays low and the other guys goes high and the wall goes up on an angle until the guy on the high sides has his lap on first and then the other lifts his lap on and then slide into place and the laps lock the walls into place.Joe Carola
Joe,
You are going to convert someone! I couldn't imagine not toenailing. Southeast Virginia is nearly 100% toenailers. I've been framing since 1971, that is the way I was taught and that's the way I've taught probably a couple hundred new guys. There is way too much worry about sheathing with non toenailers. I would rather it be at my face than crawling around on my knees nailing yet another flat surface down. I also use 4 8s for nailing studs and rarely use a gun for that since I find it awkward to handle a gun toenailng. Nailing off the bottoms, yeah i will use the gun. Second floor sheathing...just nail a 2x4 at eye level, get up there and hang over and nail 60% of the sheet. I alo like to plate porch beams and raise the walls with the plate and beams all tied together. For soffits and drop ceilings I make the plates and use that as a locked in top plate to the soffit. maybe you didn't mention it but 2 people can raise about 40 feet of wall as long as there is not a lot of big headers.
Edited 3/8/2006 7:56 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 3/8/2006 8:04 pm ET by shellbuilder
Blue,
I've stick Framed a bunch and it's relly not a problem to get the wall raised up. A lot of it is in how you raise it.
We used to prop the top plates up on blocks. Nail the headers to the top plates, and nail the King studs to the header and top plate while the plate is upside down. Then we drop the wall down and nail all of the studs to the top plate.
Next, we grab the top plate, pull it back a little and then push it forward until all of the studs hit the bottom plate. Then, as long as everyone lifts together and don't get caught pushing too low on the stud, Up it goes without a problem.
You would think that the studs would kick but they don't. It's an aquired skill but it doesn't take long to aquire.
If your crew is small there can be a precarious moment when the wall is up and you're trying to start a few nails and get a few braces on.
I've never lost a wall on probably 100 houses, both for an employer and myself.
I've also tilt-up or Western Framed.
To me, if you have experience with Stick Framing, even if you do Sheeth the house yourself, it's not really any slower, just different.
In an earlier post, Framer explained his process. It's fast and the crew keeps moving. On any crew I've run, including my own, We always had a lead guy who went around and set up walls and let the helper monkies nail in studs.
For what it's worth, In the 70's when things were really bad my father took a job at New Jersey Zinc in the Carpenters shop. Twice a year, he used to take his vacation and frame a house for a local semi retired builder. One year he Framed the whole house except for the two days my uncle came and helped him set the Girder and the ridge. He Western Framed it and used Proctor Jacks.
It failed inspection becasue it wasn't toe nailed and he ended up going around and toe nailing each and every stud after the fact. For a long time, in New Jersey anyway, Stick/Toe Nialing was the only acceptable way.
Okay, I'm getting the picture after reading Joe and Shellbuilders posts.
One of the keys to successfully raising these walls, is keeping the downward pressure with one hand on the lower end of the stud. I know about that dynamic from raising tall ladders or lumber.
The bigget benefit that I see about this system is the reduced stress on the body because you are raising lighter walls. Walls with sheathing and overhangs, siding and windows are very heavy!
I'm not sure how well this system would work with some of the 14' tall x 32' long, side entrance garage walls I've framed, but I suppose that if I was in that mode, I'd figure it out. When we raise tall walls like that, one of our key elements for safety is to keep the bottom together to prevent twisting and "popping up" of the smaller leg segments of that wall.
If I was framing using this system, one thing is sure: I'd never consider raising a 40' wall with two people. That idea would be scuttling the one good thing about that system. Instead of raising it all as one, I'd split that wall into two or three segments and just lap the top plate over. At most I'd be raising 20' ers with two guys. Nailing the lapped plates would not add any time.
blue
The bigget benefit that I see about this system is the reduced stress on the body because you are raising lighter walls. Walls with sheathing and overhangs, siding and windows are very heavy!
Ya know, I've done a fair amount of Tilt-up Framing and one thing I don't get about it is that if you are going to do it that way, why not do as much of the work as possible, like overhangs and siding and such and just use Wall Jacks like the Proctors? I see a ton of guys leaving sheets off and the like and to me that just defeats the purpose.
Blue,
That is a good observation about splitting walls and guess I should have mentioned that we do that sometimes. Years back I worked for guys who left so much stuff unfinished for later including not nailing off subfloors, toenailing down the interior walls, leaving out stairs, non load bearing headers...just to get the plywood on the roof so we had rainy day stuff, so yep we could "throw" them up pretty quick with a good toenail crew. Ther are not a lot of jobs that I worked on as a framer that you wanted to leave stuff laying around like windows and Tyvek to get the walls assembled. On the outer banks of N.C I framed quite a few facenailed and stood walls up with sheet siding and windows and even the overhang trimmed out. These jobs had a lot of problems with subfloors buckling and delaminating too, Wondered if anyone had any remedies for that?
"It sounds to me like the studs would all be kinda loose and flopping around when you get the wall raised. If I'm understanding it correctly, it sounds like it would be like herding cats to do it this way. Having it all in one relatively solid and stable piece just seems a lot easier to handle. So, what are the advantages to doing this?" John,Once you slide the bottom of the studs until they hit the nailed down bottom plate and start lifting the bottoms they don't move anywhere. The wall lifts right up nice and easy and nice and light. I frame 2x6 walls 60' long 10' high like this even with headers in them.The advantages for me is that all the walls go up faster and are lighter and all the top plates are done and laid out for joist, plumbing, doubles for partitions above, special beams....etc. We get the house framed faster and then the sheathers come in and fly and sheath the whole house in a couple hours so the roof goes on and the house is water tight.So trust me John, the walls go up nice and easy and not at all like herding cats. Don't forget I've framed the other way also. Here's a couple pics of the house I framed with the 2x6 60' walls 10 high.Also, here's a link to a post that I made to Blue about the way we frame. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70448.66Joe Carola
i think we got confused somewhere.but i'm too tired to work it out.frame on!
RTC
One on the bottom and two on top, same as usual. I didn't get it either. Read the whole thread and you'll see what the Yankees are getting at.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
mike- i have framed both in long island and rhode island. and have found the tchnique i learned in n.y. to be more to my liking. the only forseable problem is the nesting of the plates, for the sequence of framing wall on top of wall. i like the the way everything fits together you can up dash marks on the laps to line up later when the walls go up. i found the plumbing, straightning to be more of a complete process. but as far efficiency it as far as im concerned , it all up to the crew and what there geared to. once everyone is on the same page, it an assembly line . there are no absolutes in procedures the way i see it. i do like the idea of sheathing on the floor then standing up. that a big time saver . but there a bear to lift and i've had two back op's so none of that nonsense for me. what we do in long island is usally sub it out to a sheathing crew and the just motor , when i worked in rhode island i had some big time nay sayers on my way . but they picked up pretty quick and the crew was well versed in both. and that really is the point i'm making your way works for you and he should have no problem acclimating to realign your crew doesnt seem the way to go at least from where i'm sitting. to clumsy and breaks that second or third day cadence that so important to your bank book. one test of ####decent carpenter is how he can adjust himself to a diffrent situations. i didnt read all throught he rest of the posts so i apologize for any redundancy.
slainte'
..
That is about the only way framers in southeast Va. frame. I think it may have been brought down here by some New York guys in the late 60s. Never heard it called jungle framing, toenailing is all I've ever heard.
We use the toenail system of framing. In my opinion it is slower but we only frame 3 or 4 houses a year and are more familiar with it. The prime advantage is that the frame with its overlaps fits together tightly on the floor. In principle it is simply a matter of raising the top plates the height of the studs. There is no opportunity for gaps in the top plates for errors to creep in.
The top of the wall is only as flat as the floor. The toenails are slightly stronger in that there are more of them and they can take out a slight twist in the studs.
The advantages are probably not enough to outweigh the disadvantages but the system is what we know well and that advantage is the reason we use it.
The top of the wall is only as flat as the floor. The toenails are slightly stronger in that there are more of them and they can take out a slight twist in the studs.
It sounds like you are framing on uneven slabs. That was the question I had in mind when I asked how you deal with that. Mike gave me a flippant answer with no actualy details, so I assumed he didn't know either.
Since the top of the wall is only as flat as your floor, what do you do to rectify that situation?
blue
nothing flippant about it
after the wall is up & before you sheath it, you string it, and guage it
if you want to live with it, you do.. if you want to try to make it better, you shim or cut..
if the overall effect is a level floor above ( and you have a band joist, right ? )
then you're good to goMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We normally frame our walls on a flat framed floor. If we are framing on an uneven slab, we toenail overlength studs into the bottom plate, shoot the tops of the studs with a transit, cut the studs in place and nail the plates on top. Either that or make an end-nailed wall and shim it level.
What do you do if your floors are out of level? I was framing end-nailed walls that were sheathed on the deck over a floor that had a camber built into it. I had the adjacent walls tipped up and completely sheathed and the connecting wall was 1/2" higher due to the camber of the floor. I ended up shimming the wall and using a thinner top plate to even things out but this was obviously not what a truly experienced framer would have done. What do you do?
Schelling, if we find that the deck is cambered as you did, we would drive steel shims under the corner of the sill plate, under the deck to bring it up tight to the wall. We would then drive steel shims under each point on the sill plate where a joist lands.
The gaps in the mudsill will have to be foamed to prevent air infiltration but the frame up top looks good and is good. The joist won't be able to settle and squeak after it drys out and get pounded (walked) on.
I probably would use this same technique on a wavy concrete platform. I don't really know...because I haven't framed on a slab yet. The slabs we have framed on have a resonably level course of block on the perimeter.
blue