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Mike. About a month ago I received VII and noticed your paper is not published in that volume. Please e-mail me a copy. GeneL.
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JRS. Thank you for " giv[ing] [me]another chance to shamelessly promote and market [my] book." As noted in previous post it is easier to have a questioner consult the appropriate chapter in the book than to copy, say, 25 pages on this post.(Would Shawn--he's no longer with FHB -allow me to post that long a reply?). This of course has not prevented me from writing some lengthy posts, especially when the material is not covered in my book.By the bye. Some of the material in my chapter on attic ventilation is not to be found in any other book on construction. This is because I was privy to unpublished research.No, I have not read all of bnook on construction, but most of them.
As for the risks in not ventilating an attic see page 614, Is Attic Ventilation Necessary?, in my book. I never recommend anything without giving the reasons--negative as well as positive.Note for example, the replies to questions on whole house venting fans. Few, if any mention the negatives of whole house ventilating fans. AS Code Enforcement Officer in Merrimack, New Hampshire, I banned all attic ventilation devices except for externally baffled ridge vents (with one exception) combined with double louvered soffit vents located next to the fascia board. One builder protested my ban of screenig for soffit vents. I asked him if the screening was 70% opened or 70% closed. He could not naswer me. Each builder received -and the general public as they asked for it--a 12 page paper I had written on attic ventilation which explained the reasons for the ban. I told builders that they may disagree with me--I listened to their arguments--but they would never be able to say that I didn't give reasons for my policies.The last attic ventilation device I banned was drip-edge vents, sometimes called starter vents. Several builders came in to congratulate me on the ban of drip-edge vents. I received telephone calls from all over the country--from chain stores such as Lowes in the South to builders and building inspectors from coast to coast.
Did I allow hot roofs? Yes. But only after a pre-framing conference with the builder and architect, if there was one. Pre- framing conferences in residential construction are not common, except on very large projects. I required the plans to show specific details of the sealing of the attic floor, and installation of the insulation.A qualified individual had to be assigned to supervise--or the architect did this--only if he was experienced in this field. In my book,paage 615, I say, "The sealing of the air retarder must be supervised by someone who is experienced. Do not make the mistake of assigning it to one of the crew." But note the sentence that follows. " Even if the ceiling is ventilated, the air retarder should be as leak proof as possible." If Macmillan ever agrees to a revision of the book, all the shoulds will become MUSTS.GeneL.
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Gene, if you have a copy of "the chapter" in plain-text digital format -- and Macmillan won't have a copyright stroke -- e-mail it to me and I'll post it on my little corner of the Web for all to see.
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Andrew D. That should be GENE Leger.Sorry. GeneL.
It is easier to comprehend calculus than why so many builders refuse to ask shingle manufactures for written documentation of their claims. If they ask FredL or me to back-up our claims why are they so eager to accept the unproven claim (in spite of my asking for anyone to send me written proof, my words must have fallen on deaf ears) that unventilated attics degrade shingle longevity? The threat of voiding shingle warranty may be very real, but it is a smoke screen that allows ARMA get away with proving their claims. The extent of their proof is "If you knew..."" Then ther are those unfortunates who don't need proof, they have "common sense." No offense is intended. GeneL.
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Andrew
Leave well enough alone, you want this place overrun with cops??? They take a very dim view of after hours private booze cans, with password access back doors.
-pm
*Genne aka Gene,Senility run in your family by any chance or only vanity.It must be difficult for you, being the only genius to grace this earth amonst all us meer mortals. If I were one of the shingle manufacturers, I wouldn't return your calls either. Business people, don't like wasting their time talking to people who aren't interested in facts, when this information is common knowledge.I don't know how to tell you this so that you will be able to grasp it without having a coronary or circuit overload, but for what it's worth, here goes.Gene, in the big picture, you and people like you, don't add up to a pinch of coon sh*t.The industry caters to and makes the focus of it's marketing on the other billion people on this planet and have been quiet successful for hundreds of years.The industry has to worry about product liability because it has what is commonly refered to as deep pockets. You, on the other hand, have no pockets, so you don't have to worry about being sued, simply because it would be a waste of time for the lawyers.If lawyers can't smell money, they don't join the hunt.Like I've said before, too bad we never crossed paths when you were a building inspector, I would have been able to guide you towards a more meaningful career.Gabe
*Uh JRS,Before anybody reads your post and stores their damp hay in the barn to dry out, I thought I might mention that the way most people find out they brought their hay in a little wet is by seeing their barn engulfed in flames.JonC
*Just as long as it doesn't get personal...
*Gene, You really are a long winded son-of-a-gun, aren't you? Just like most of the other salesmen I know.John
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Dear Mr. Martel,
I don't believe that I have run into an online personality as colorful as yourself. Mssrs. Lugano and Leger have been helpful to dozens of people, giving free advice and encouragement to professional and weekend warrior alike. The only requirement was civility. You, sir, are not civil. And your behaviour is an insult to your profession. Try therapy.
regards,
david pybas
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Dearest David,
We've never run into each other so you're being presumptuous with your diagnosis. Mssrs. Lugano and Leger DO NOT GIVE OUT FREE ADVICE TO ANYONE.
FreddyL sells his services on the internet and Gene shamelessly tries to sell his book.
If you knew anything about the subject matter, you sir, would know how irresponsible their advice is to the general public.
We live in a world where incompetence is a badge of honor and it got that way because no one challenged the claims of the self-serving.
I "sir" will continue, without needing or asking for your blessing, to challenge what 35 years of construction experience has taught me, to be bogus.
Breaktime is a jobsite discussion group, and at a jobsite, we call it like it is. Political correctness is not part of the formula.
It's up to you, to read through the good, the bad and the ugly, and in the end, MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND as to the proper course of action on any given subject. Its your money and its your home.
Please have a good day,
Gabe
*Gabe,Maybe someday you will get a clue as to how rude you really come across.Steve
*Steve,Only whinny people find me rude, the rest will always find me honest and straightforward.Who knows, maybe I spend too much time nailing bad guys. But, if I didn't do it, a lot of small contractors would go broke being cheated by those who make a living off the little guy.If you were in trouble and about to loose your shirt because somebody took you on a project, I don't I could help you out if I had to be politically correct with the other guy.But hey, if former President Bush can lobby for a kinder gently nation on the eve of sending the bombers out, I guess, I can try to re-read some of my posts.Gabe
*Gabe: I "sir" will continue, without needing or asking for your blessing, to challenge what 35 years of construction experience has taught me, to be bogus.English: I "sir" will continue...to be bogus.With no further comment, Fred
*FreddyL, Why is it that everytime somebody pukes you're in there fighting for the big pieces.Gabe
*andrew d. I don't own the copyright to the book. And I doubt the publisher would grant permission to put 23 pages on the internet. Thanks for the offer. GeneL.
*Gabe,Maybe at least you and I can agree in our distaste for the Bush family. Here's a picture of me and GW Bush at a recent event. It's for my dartboard. Note the racoon-in-the-gargbage-can expression on the two of us ;-)Steve
*Nice picture Steve,However, we do agree on a lot of points, we just don't acknowledge them.:)Gabe
*Perhaps state it once in your own words -- you have already on this site -- then refer to that constant reference. Actually, you do all that within the context of the Taunton site.You must be a much faster typist than I am.
*You expect us to believe that you don't own your own book? What a lie. Why else would you try to sell so many copies to all these suckers.
*Babe Mardell. Any relationship to Gabe Martel? Look up the expression "work for hire"and then tell me if I'm lying. GeneL.
*Dear Mr. Genne Ledger,Typically you evade the issue of your making money selling products on this forum by personally attacking me. This does nothing to answer the question of you making a fortune selling your book, the worthless Ledger boards, the value of which has been debated else where in this forum, and probably you advocate that these dumb contractors and carpenters keep records in Ledger books. From all of these schemes you probably make lots of money. In my 400 years of construction experience I have learned to spot a phony when I see one. I was exposing people like you on the internet long before you were born.Babe.
*Spoke today to Jody Caldwell, the warranty/service administrator with Elk Corp. of Texas. Elk does extend its warranty to certain unvented roof decks, limited to SIPs that they have tested and approved. They do not warrant site-built assemblies at this time. The concern is not with the temperature of the shingle -- she said the shingles could get to 180° in AZ and be just fine -- but instead with roof deck movement that might buckle or loosen the shingles. She emphasized that what they warrant is "manufacturing defects" -- they are wary of site-built nonvented assemblies because it can be hard to determine where the defect lay.If you want to use Elk over nonvented SIPs, you must check to see whether they have approved the particular brand of SIP and get a letter of authorization. Ms. Caldwell is at 800-289-9876, extension 264, and was very forthcoming.BTW, they also warrant slopes to 2:12; like the unvented roof deck exceptions, i think they are unusual in extending their warranty so far. Must have some faith in their product.
*andrew d. Jody Caldwell's remarks are interesting, and possibly encouraging. Yet they raise questions I don't expect you to answer.One of the negatives of SIPs, is the tendency to buckle when used as roofing panels. The solution of course, is to not use them, or to shorten the span or use thicker SIPs. Well, I got interested enough to call Jody. Had a long and interesting talk with her. She couldn't give me the information I wanted and suggested I contact Mike Kiik--keek-who is VP of Technical services. No toll free number but I did get his e-mail [email protected] Jody did tell me was some of the factors Elk looks for with SIPs. But I don't think they take into acount long spans or thin thickness of these panels when used for roofing panels. SIPs manufacturers may be well aware of these problems and so advise buyers to beware. I don't know. I'll probably get off an e-mail to Kiik. Thanks for the information.GeneL.
*Yes, the "SIP OK" and "not SIP not OK" position is arbitrary, as I pointed out to her. But I appreciate their situation -- it is beneficial to have what we call in law "bright lines" delimiting the warranty. Having to evaluate every single roofing failure in its individual circumstances would get burdensome quick. But the assumption that if the roof is vented we should pay probably costs them a lot of money too, in situations where the shingle is blameless.Frankly I was surprised they even bothered to consider nonvented roofs. I sense possible lobbying from the SIP industry. interestingly, if ELK thinks a particular type of SIP is ok for its shingles, but the manufacturer refuses to list or delists asphalt shingles as an appropriate material, Elk will pull its approcal as well. Symbiosis, and an opportunity for mutual blame.Talking to her has me contemplating short-span SIPs laid -between- and notched to mate with TJI rafters maybe 4' O.C. for a simple shed dormer, to deal with the buckling and maybe save me some trouble. My biggest problem would be conning someone into helping me lift the darn things. Called SIPA today for info too. Oh yes, with Elk shingles over ice-and-water shield on top. :)
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asndrew d. Jody make it clear that if Elk's shingles are at fault, Elk could csre less if the attic is vented or not.
From her description of what Elk looks for in a SIP panel--of course it must be correctly installed according to manufacturer's instructions--it's not clear to me that using SIPs in long span roof panels is of concern to them. I don't know. By the bye andrew. Another negative to SIPs is in hot humid climates. Reports out of Florida tell of the thickening of the edges of the OSB caused by high humidity.
I'm not tyring to be negative here. One must know both positive and negatives.
Ronald Tisue and Norman Saunders (have you ever heard of the Solar Stair Case? He invented it and thr Saunders House) wrote a paper, "Sttress On Stress Skin Panels, published in the Proceedings of the 13th Passive Solar conference , 1988. Paper deals with bowing and buckling of SIPs. I remember those problems back in 1982.
Anyway, I'll get an e-mail of to Mike Kiik.GeneL.
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All Q's I'll ask whichever SIP company I talk to. Thanks.
*Gene-Regardless of what Jody told you I will quote directly from Elk's warranty form: "ELK MAKES NO REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, OTHER THAN THE LIMITED WARRANTY SET FORTH HEREIN, AND NO PERSON IS AUTHORIZED TO ALTER THIS LIMITED WARRANTY EITHER ORALLY OR IN WRITING."Their caps not mine! Typical sales talk; tell the customer what they want to hear so you don't lose the sale, meanwhile the legal dept. has the corporate a** covered quite well. I wonder if Jody is aware of that sentence(she certainly should be!)Andrew-I have a method I have used for the last 17 years on cathedral roofs, without a failure(over 30,000 sq. ft.) that satisfies the insulation code requirements, and ventilation requirements, and I think would compare very favorably in cost to the various methods you are contemplating on your roof. Should I describe it here or start a new post? John
*Regarding the warranty, I would be concerned about the shrinkwrap warranty but not consider it decisive. Courts are skeptical about boilerplate stuff like that, and if you had a letter waiving the venting requirement from someone high enough in the executive corps they'd be unlikely able to pull a fast one. I mean picture it, a letter from the president of Elk assuring you they would honor their warranty -- of course they would be held to that later! If NO ONE at Elk could vary the terms of the warranty, it would last forever. What they DON'T want is some salesperson -- which this Jody is not -- making up stuff to get that ever-precious commission. Hence the overbroad language. (The salesperson, BTW, could be personally liable.)Re the roof, it would be a good post in the HVAC group. The topic has come up often before -- just search for "cathedral roof" and you'll find quite a few discussions of insulating/venting. The problem I have is an old cape with limited attic space and no soffits. I want to raise the ceiling above 7', but that will eliminate the 8" gable vents that have done such a fine job all these years. As for intake vents, I have heard nothing but invective for drip edge vents ... and I can already picture the disaster when all that stuff the 100 y.o. oak tree dumps on us backs up the gutter and pours water into the wall. Finally, I need to keep the 2x6 rafters in the unmodified parts of the roofs, yet get a bit more than R-13 (!) out of them.... and so a nonvented shed dormer (in effect "cathedralized" because of the nonexistent attic space) has a lot more than gee whiz appeal. At least with SIPs I can preserve the shingle warranty if I decide that is a priority... Or I could do some sort of satisfy-the-inspector minimal venting, but why bother. Sigh. It was so much easier when energy was cheap and houses were just hollow-walled sieves.
*Saturday morning reading this whole topic from first post, to last...And I'm left wondering just what it would take for all to rise above their own personalities to a point that getting along respectfully was held as the number one thought and ideal that they would want an internet traverser to leave this site with...and number two would be their slant on the discussion and maybe left far from the keyboard inflated chests, bible quotes, and "it's the law" verbiage. I.E.- Name calling...now that's something we should all be proud to be the best at!Near the stream wondering how to parse this thread for the wee bit of info I'd like to retain,aj
*JRS. there is always the problem of what sales and non-slaes personnel tell you, and what the legal department has to say.Andrew. Shed dormers because of the low slope are particularly difficult to insulate. Adding or leaving a 2-inch air space above the insulation exacerbate the problem. A real headache is a shed roof connected to a vertical wall. There was a post on Breaktime asking how to ventilate this combination. I told poster that the vent for this roof was a flash vent such as manufactured by Air Vent, Inc. I advised him to not attempt ventilating the roof. Why? Because it is in a high pressure area which guarantees rain and snow penetration.There is only one drip-edge vent I recommend: the ComboVent. It is the only one that has the necessary baffle.In past posts here I went into quite a bit of detail (as does my book) on what is wrong about drip-edge vents. The 800,number I had for them is no longer valid. The last time I spoke to the owner of the ComboVent Company, she said she was discussing the sale of her company. Who bought it I don't know. GeneL.
*Oh, c'mon aj, nothing here is very strong by the standards of this board. I appreciate JRS's basic point, which is that the shingle warranty was getting short shrift. After all, it is something of value not to be discarded hastily. I did some additional work here by actually CALLING a shingle mfgr, and I consider that new information in the stew."Short shrift" ... interesting expression ... means "barely adequate time for confession before execution." Now isn't THAT appropriate for this board.As for Bible quote, you must know by now that I love the ability to do electronic searches for information! It's like a library at your fingertips. In the old days, contacting Elk also would have taken a bunch of phone calls; now, all I did was find their site and drop an e-mail, followed up with a phone call.Gene. What exactly do you refer to with "Shed dormers because of the low slope are particularly difficult to insulate." I am concerned about wind-blown infiltration, but my bldg dept isn't going to issue a waiver for that alone. With a SIP at least, no case at all can be made for ventilation. As you may recall, I was toying with the idea of spraying polyurethane into the ceiling to get much the same effect.
*i nothing here is very strong by the standards of this board...yes Andrew...this board is a lowly placed one standards-wise isn't it...your additions to this topic are by the way the ones that I wish I could browse while not stepping through such a cowpatch full of manure...Near the stream, washing my boots off,aj
*andrew. The typical low sloped shed dormer found on the cape house. Of course this is not a problem when using SIPs. GeneL.
*Jack-Why does this particular post give you a problem? There are others that go further astray than this one did. Barrel vaulted dormer for example. It got off on a wild tangent, then came back around to the original topic; plenty of name calling and vitriol there. Do you feel the same way about that one? This one got away a little bit, but it's come back around. Was it the subject matter that caused your remarks? Your comment about quoting the "law", was that directed at me? I have seen warranty claims honored or disallowed based on whether or not the roof was vented. If the implication of the language of the warranty means nothing to an individual then this topic holds little interest to them. But for others who know that sooner or later they may find themselves faced with a warranty situation, it is an interesting topic.Your comment on keeping personal bias out of these discussions baffles me. If we don't speak our opinion on things then where's the discussion? Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.One more thing, nobody makes anyone walk across cowpatches full of manure. We go there by choice. Besides, doesn't manure help increase crop yields?John
*JRS... I enjoy debating all here and in person but some of the "personalities" here go way past my "boundaries" of civility, respect and all...Yes on your topic, and of course all over this board.I'm sure at least one psychology doctorial candidate by now has chosen to study the phenomenom of individuals going so far off into there held back "in person" personas verses their "web" selves...near the stream and wondering when all you "bashers" will realise that the whole world is learning just as much about the i character of the bashers as they supposedly and "basher enhanced enlighteningly" are learning about the subject and the "bashee."ajAnd one last thing to try to remember all....The archives here may be around b forever!!!!....."showcasing at least one thing very well!!!!....b us...and who "us" really is.
*First "road rage" ... then "Web rage" ... then there's "day trader rage" ... at least on the Web you can't kill anyone .Yet.
*Back to the topic - unvented attics may void warranties. Since when have builders been concerned about warranties? I've yet to find a lick of house wrap tape in my state yet all manufacturers are very clear that all house wrap penetrations (that includes seams, windows, doors, etc.) must be taped or the warranty is void. Better yet, how many supply yards even have the tech bulletins that give the small print instalation details. And I can't tell you the number of up-scale homes with bath vent fans terminating in the attic! Talk about warranties - you could have a field day on the average building site!
*Dude, go with metal roofing.I know it'll last longer than me, BB
*
At the risk of starting a whole new round of "bloodletting"(as Joe so eloquently described it), I would like to warn those who will take the anti-attic ventalation zealot's advice to heart.
You may convince the local building dept. to rescind their ventilation requirements, but did you realize you will also be giving up your shingle warranty? Your building department, your architect, even your insulation contractor will not pick this up for you. You will be entirely on your own. But don't take my word on this. Just ask your local roofing supplier to put you in touch with the shingle manufacturer's rep and see if you can get a waiver from them on the ventilation clause of their warranty.
Winter condensation is only part of the reason for the requirements. Keeping the temperature on the bottom side of the decking as low as possible is the other.
So if you want to be a pioneer in the application of unvented attics, at least have your eyes open to the risk you face in voiding the manufacturers warranty. And any contractor who knowingly violates the warranty and doesn't fully inform the customer may face liability if that roof fails down the road.
John
*Regarding the roof shingles, has anyone heard of someone recovering for bad shingles? And all they give you is new shingles, right, no labor? Do they at least pay 100%, not pro-rata?In any event, the warranty sounds relatively unimportant -- relative to the costs of venting, as installed or malfunctioning. And the central question, assuming you are buying quality shingles that can survive their warranty period, is whether the temp. has any effect at all. Since unvented roofs are uncommon, the mfgrs have little incentive to expand their warranties. Now, the odd thing as I understand it is that the small difference in shingle temp. provided by venting is less than the difference in temp between light- and dark-colored shingles of the same type. How important could this be? Someone told me recently he knew a guy who called Owens-Corning with this question, and they hung up on him!Inquiring minds want to know. Something here doesn't figure right. The cynic in me says that bacause so few roofs are properly vented the must-vent clause gives the mfgrs an easy way out of honoring the warranty.
*Andrew, don't kid yourself. Of course shingle manufacturers honor their warranties. They cover labor and materials. Certainteed doesn't even pro rate until after 5 years.(Pro rata tables are figured over the life of the shingle- what's unfair about that?) I know Certainteed, Owens Corning, GAF, and Elk honor warranties, because I have done warranty replacements for all of these companies."Since unvented roofs are uncommon the mfgrs have little incentive to expand their warranties" (pargraph 2)and "...so few roofs are properly vented the must vent clause gives mfgrs an easy way out of honoring their warranty."(paragraph 4) So which way is it? I have found that the companies I mentioned do not look for loopholes, but they do insist on some kind of ventilation. I have never seen one of these companies turn down a warranty claim for failed shingles where vents were present."...the warranty sounds relatively unimportant--relative to the costs of venting" Just how expensive do you think it is to vent? On a reroof maybe 5% if you go minimum, 10% if you go ridge vent. On new construction even less. "Someone told me recently he knew a guy...." Hearsay your Honor!! Try making your own call and talk to the people as respectfully as you talk here and I'm quite sure no one will hang up on you.JohnP.S. What in the world are you doing up so late?;}
*Andrew, "unvented" roofs are not as uncommon as you perceive. Work on 100 year old houses, and you'll see plenty. Very common on old timberframed houses. Most of the older houses did have a roof-hatch, designed for ease of chimney maintenance, but could double as a vent, similar to a skylight. The real issue, when discussing the prevailing practice of the time, is to look at the building as a complete package. Most were... um, drafty (?) to be kind. Many are "sicker" now as some poorly planned "upgrades" have been done.I'm not firmly in either camp. To vent or not to vent... it must be viewed as a package.
*JRS - I don't know why you posted this unprovoked, but you apparently wanted to stir up the soup because now you are debating others. Anyways - this has all been covered before.As I posted before - go to the celotex web page and look into the non-vented rigid nailboard. They have sample specs and details for applying their shingles over the nailboard without a single mention of a warranty reduction.Fred L has also posted manufacturers that now offer "limited" warranties for non-vented roofs.Andrew's question was do you know of anyone who has collected a free roof from the shingle manufacturer, not recite paper warranty.-Rob
*The CertainTeed warranty.."does not extend to any shingles applied to insulated roof deck systems that are not ventilated between the insulation and the deck material upon which the shingles are attached." I interpret this to mean no insulation smack-dab against the roof deck, but I don't know if it means an attic open to the outside.
*Hmmm... My questions were questions, not assertions, and some speculation. The signals from the manufacturers ARE mixed. Just how much do the shingles benefit from venting? The position of some mfgrs seems dogmatic.You're right, George, our old house is essentially unvented with two hand-sized gable vents. I was in that sentence thinking of new construction. JRS, I alluded to this, vaguely, in my post: "that so few roofs are vented properly" refers to old construction with superstitious venting schemes; "unvented" refers to more experimental new construction. So there is a method to my madness. Per your advice, I dropped an e-mail to Elk (chosen at random) asking for specific information. Couldn't find anything on venting in their site.My question still is, what difference does venting make for the narrow issue of shingle life? A chemical explanation, and one that accounts for the (bogus?) temperature issue?As Rob says, this has been debated before ... somewhat inconclusively ... to me JRS's view is a new one ... most posters here have been critical of the shingle mfgr warranties. Of course this place is infested with independent thinkers (heretics).BTW I've been up late recently because of the heat wave. Our unvented, unairconditioned house has been miserable ... outside was more comfortable, but sweating like that day after day just wears me out. Started taking naps in the afternoon, staying up late. 85° this week is wonderful. But I don't pretend to be suffering like the stories I'm hearing here from other parts of the country.Besides, once you start reading Breaktime how can you quit?
*Rob-I didn't recite paper warranty- go back and read my reply! I have installed dozens of warranty roofs for all the mfgrs. mentioned(as well as Johns-Manville who has sold off their roofing operations) I have worked with customers who had failures of their roofs that decided to take monetary settlements and sign off the mfgrs. further liabilities. Don't automatically assume that mfgrs. are evil entities out to rip off the consumer. I have found most mfgrs. to be helpful. Sure, the customer has to jump through a hoop or two, but that is to be expected in any warranty situation.As for stirring the soup, why do you see this as a provocation? I simply want people who are going to break with code and void their shingle warranty to have their eyes open to the possible results of their choice. Unintended consequences and all that. There are those who are urging homeowners and contractors to do this and I want these folks to have the facts to make an INFORMED decision. If they choose to void the warranty, more power to them. They know the risk and are willing to accept it.Andrew, around here I would venture a guess that about 80% of the roofs have some type of ventilation. Homes built in the last 15 to 20 years are probably closer to 100% due to code requirements. BTW-Idon't have AC either.John
*We'll have AC by the end of the week -- I don't care so much but we're expecting a baby and my wife sure does. It WILL make my interior work a lot more comfortable if we get another of these infernoes.Now, I wonder about your warranty repairs. Doesn't sound like a very good recommendation for these companies, that they have to pay warranty claims! The guy who told me about Owens-Corning was the licensed Icynene installer for this area; I asked him about the warranty problem directly. Going ventless in my remodel would make life MUCH easier for several reasons (2x6 rafters, no soffits, etc.), and may even justify a coat of Icynene to satisfy the inspector. (The bulk of the insulation being inexpensive cellulose.)
*Andrew, no need to wonder about those warranties. I was doing little else than roofing for over ten years and was being refered by a couple of suppliers to handle "trouble" jobs, some of which led to warranty adjustments or replacements. Out of the millions of squares of shingles being produced every year even 1 or 2 percent failure can be a significant number.(That rate is a WAG on my part-probably high.) It's a good recommendation for those companies that they do pay claims! Those are the best companies, in my opinion. I have had less than pleasant experiances with some other companies.BTW-Many roof failures are due to inadequate ventilation but I have found that as long as there is some ventilation the mfgrs won't quibble, they'll honor the warranty. I always increase the ventilation on those jobs and have never experianced a repeat failure.John
*So JRS, how do you explain unvented barn roofs lasting as long as they do? The cardboard boxes nailed under my barns old roof were stamped 1949! I agree 50 years seems like too long, but supposing a re-roof that would still be 25 years per roof.Incidentally - the boxes were for the exact pattern and color as the ones I tore off.Once again I'll say - this was all covered six months ago, were you here then?-Rob
*Barn roof unvented? Surely you jest. A barn by its very design is a ventilated building. If a barn was built tight the hay would never dry out.also, barns are typically unheated, so you don't have that dynamic going on. Besides, you miss my point-no vents=no warranty, unless you can manage to get written clarification from the mfgr-don't depend on a salesman's or rep's word. Get it in writing and file it! I would be very interested to se such a document. John
*Hey Rob - what is the harm in reopening a discussion that took place 6 months ago? Surely there are many folks here now, who weren't here then. Any oldtimers who are bored with the discussion, could just ignore it. - jb
*I for one would like to hear people's stories-good or bad--about roof warranty claims. Can't have too much data, particularly when it's anecdotal.Steve
*Received the following reply from Elk roday, labeled "urgent" with return receipt. I'm fascinated that I have to call them for their "non-standard" roof deck options. Is this something illicit? Should I tape record the conversation? I can't wait to call! (I certainly appreciate the prompt reply -- very professional.)***Dear Mr. Douglass:Thank you for contacting Elk Corporation via our web site.In response to your question regarding ventilation, Elk specifications indicate that all attics should be properly vented. Elk supports the ventilation guidelines recommended by the Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association (ARMA), which is one square foot of free vent area for each 150 square feet of attic floor. As indicated in the limited warranty, Elk is not liable for damage to the shingles caused by improper ventilation. Elk shingles are approved over some non-standard insulated decks (vented and non-vented).For further information I am mailing to you a complete packet of our product literature and application guidelines, including and article from a temperature study of black roofs vs. white roofs, and information on ventilation from ARMA and the American Society of Home Inspectors.Thank you for your interest in Elk products. Please give me a call at 800-289-9876, extension 264, if you need any further assistance, or if you would like to discuss the Elk approved non-standard insulated decks. I am available Monday thru Friday from 7:00 a.m. until 4:00 p.m. central time.Sincerely,Jody CaldwellProduct Warranty/Service AdministratorElk Corporation of Texas
*JRS. Zealots? That is strong language. Does this mean that those of us who disagree wíth received wisdom are zealots? Would apostate be more accurate? And as long as you are tagging, what do you call those manufacturers of roof shingles who refuse to produce any documented proof of their claims? Since the early 1990s I've been asking Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association (ARMA) for documented proof.Their response is, paraphrasing General Haigh's Rules of the Game, "If you knew what we know about shingles you would know that we are right." And even when confronted with reams of documented proofto the contrary, their response continues to be "Ïf you knew..." Were you in the construction business in the early 1980s? If so, do you remember the high rate of hardboard siding failures? Admittedly some of these failures were builder caused. The manufacturers voided the warranty if the siding was nailed 24-inches OC.You wouldn't believe the amount of the siding bowing, and buckling. The appeals to them fell on deaf ears. And this continued on until one lone individual (a building scientist) took them on at great risk to his financial security (threathened law suits). This lone ranger, if you will. persisted and backed the manufacturers down. Class action suits resulted. CertainTeed gives a 10 year shingle warranty for unvented roofs. Is this the beginning of ARMA's backing down and admitting it has no proof to support its claims? The response to "where's the proof?" is, paraphrasing General Haigh's Rules of the Game, "If you knew what we know about shingles you would know that we are right."Because of a server crash at FHB much of the old archives are lost. Many of them contained in-depth discussions of attic ventilation, shingle longevity,and so on. I mention this because of the number of pages it takes to adequately cover the subject. The chapter on attic vnetilation in my book_Complete_Building_Construction_ 4th Edition, is 23 pages long. The current revision of that chapter is now at 33 ages and will probably end up 50 pages long.How adequate and correctly treat the subject in a one page post? With all that is written on attic ventilation none of the authors define "adequate" attic ventilation.Rather they cite the 1942 FHA MPS 1:150 and 1:300 ratios.As Hinrichs's 1961 research in a real house attic show, the 1942 ratios were inadequate and 99% of all attic vnetilation devices cannot and do not provide adequate attic ventilation., ARMA then either does not know of Hinrichs's research--which has yet to be disproved--or it ignores his findings. Yet, ARMA has not conducted a wholesale voiding of shingle warranties even though most attics are inadequately ventilated. Any snow-belt dweller knows of the inadequacy of attic ventilation devices.Why is one a zealot because one argues (1) that attic ventilation is one, and not a very good one--answer; (2)That it is a mistake to ask attic vnetilation devices to do things they are not designed to do;(3)that one must no depend on attic ventilation only. The codes acknowledge that there are alternatives. Indeed the BOCA code even tells when not to ventilate an attic.By the bye. We are wellaware of the risks. That is why we demand as perfect a sealing job as possible. It often appears that Fred L and I disagree. Because I've seen hundreds of thousands of dollars of roof damage from...no not lack of attic ventilation. But from leaky basement ceilings and leaky attic floors and the problem exacerbated by little or no attic ventilation. My argument is simple. If one will not seal the leaks then ventilate. BUT :-}ventilate correctly, which means an externally baffled, filter equipped, ridge vent, and a double louvered continuous soffit vent installed next to the fascia board. to get off to a good start, buy, beg,borrow or steal a copy of my book and study the chapter on sattic ventilation. GeneL
*Zealots? I don't see any zealots around here. There are only dogmatists and heretics.
*Hi Gene,I thought you would have been on line before now.If you look in my latest book "People Who Claim to be Able to Suck and Blow at the Same Time", first edition, Chapter 13, (on sale at none of your favourite stores for $38.00) you will find that only the paranoid theory is equal to the conspiracy theory, in numbers of followers."It often appears that Fred L and I disagree" hell if you were to do an about face you'd break his neck.The only aspect of Freddy L's long winded commentaries that I would endorse is the need to test properly the inner workings of any house in order to determine it's ventilation requirements.Gene, your book is not "the" construction bible. It's one man's point of view. It's also over priced and severely overated.Shingle manufacturers and ventilation manufacturers are not out to get you or anyone else. Standard shingles are a cost effective house covering, used throughout the world, with good results. Millions upon millions of square feet have been protected by standard shingles. In all kinds of weather and conditions.Shingle liability, as with most products, is based on the average, not on the extremes. The market demands 1000 different colors and blends as well as textures and various tabs. This cost, to a competing industry, is horrific.Each model and each color behaves differently in the same climate, multiply this by the variables and you get the picture, I'm sure.Some of these shingles are exposed to extreme temperatures. You know as well as I do, by not allowing the hot air to escape, under the shingles, only raises the temperature of the shingle.So chill out a little bit there, Gene and don't worry about the shingle bogey man getting you.This isn't the Spanish inquisition.Gabe
*Gene-One reason I was a bit reluctant to start this topic was I didn't want just another argument on whether attic ventilation works or not.The other reason was that it would give you another chance to shamelessly promote and market your book(Apparently you will never have to buy advertising in FHB's classifieds) But there's nothing I can do about that. It lasted four days though and I suppose that may be some kind of record.My purpose was to explain that, while the argument rages, contractors and homeowners, are being urged to break code and nullify warranties. This is something that should not be taken lightly. Especially by a professional contractor, who under the law, is expected to install products according to code and according to mfgrs. requirements. If there is an agreement with the customer to go against this, the contractor had better have it in writing, lest the customer comes back on him with a lawsuit(if the product fails for whatever reason), claiming that he was the professional and was reckless in knowingly voiding the warranty or violating code. Yes, I was around in 1980, I worked my first job in residential roofing in 1970. I have seen many bad products fail(some of them based on "cutting edge" technology Gene) and I have even seen a few good, proven, products fail. When this happens you had better have your ducks in order or you(or your customer) will be left holding the bag.Zealots don't just disagree with "received wisdom". They urge all to follow their beliefs, even if it means breaking the rules established by the governing authority(in this case shingle mfgrs). They don't worry about what may happen to their followers later. I'm not sure if you fit that description or not: you seem to have covered yourself pretty well(legally speaking) by arguing vehemently against "received wisdom", then carefully explaining the correct way to ventilate. Are others who openly advocate violating code and nullifying warranties zealots? I think the answer is obvious.John
*Gene,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*And the occasional profound observer.
*Mike. About a month ago I received VII and noticed your paper is not published in that volume. Please e-mail me a copy. GeneL.
*If only there were some doughnuts....
*"Genne" Leger?As i mentioned above, Elk does recognize some unvented roof decks. So as least two mfgrs. (Certainteed too) are thinking about it. Haven't gotten Elk on the phone yet, too busy.