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I agree. Run from this one. Mr cheap will break you
and this will come back to bite you.
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Just got back from an estimate to do some stairs, a bilco door, and some punchlist stuff on a U-finish room addition.
The addition was prefab construction by some outfit in PA.
Where the tall addition gable wall tied into the shorter existing house gable wall, a single piece of hand bent flashing tied the addition end wall into the existing roof. No step flashing. This flashing didn't even go under the shingles. From inside, you can see the outside under this flashing the entire length.
The exterior siding looks like vinyl soffit, cracked and broken everywhere.
Girder running down the center of the addition made of three 2x12's has two of the three spliced over the last post...just where the girder starts to cantilever.
A small 3'x3' alcove on the second floor must have been hard to put sheathing on the floor because it's just open with two 2x4's used to make a makeshift railing.
All girder support posts are 6x6's. Except one. It's a 4x4. The 6x6 is lying on the ground outside cut 1" too short.
Termite shield sticking out 5" between the sheathing and the foundation wall. Pretty!
3/4" T&G Floor sheathing cantilevered 11" at the top of the stairs. Feels like a spring board.
The guy who had this built is PO'd. He wants me to fix a dozen problems and wanted my opinion on some other stuff. He said he thought he could save some money. I told him it looks like he did.
*Cheer up, Ryan... At least the termite shield may be salvagable.I'm sure others will jump in here in your support for correcting the shortcomings. Share our posts with the homeowner when he/she questions your estimate for making things right. From the sound of what you've described, I'd suggest you plug in some contingency money for the problems you have not yet found... I figure if the clown left that many obvious, exposed problems, then he buried a bunch that are even worse!Good luck, Steve
*Scared me, for a minute I thought you'd been by one of my jobs! Unfortunately, it sounds like you found something even worse!Any hint on what he paid for this addition?Rich Beckman
*I'd think long and hard about doing _any_ work there. As Steve noted, there are probably hidden problems as well. If you do some work, and later on, something significant happens (someone gets killed or seriously hurt) you know they're going to try to nail it on you. Even if you can prove it wasn't your fault, it'll be expensive to do so.Personally, I'd deliver a written letter to him noting the defects you found, warning him about possible injuries and strucural deficiencies, and either have him sign a copy or send by certified, mail return receipt (to prove he's been warned) and pass on doing any work (with the exception of a total strip and essentially unlimited budget to redo everything.)Bob
*There's alot he didn't want corrected. He said he'll do some stuff himself. He will get an quote to fix the stuff we talked about, a letter outlining some other things that need to be done by him before it's used, and a suggestion that he hire a qualified inspector to make sure everything is up to par since I'm not a home inspector. Even if he doesn't get the inspection, and he won't, At least my butt is covered. Rich: No idea what he paid. I tried to tease some numbers but he's too embarrased about this to give it up. I know he paid $6,500 for the poured basement which looks fine to me. But a local guy did that.I think I'll try to find out where this company's building every couple of weeks and send out a direct mail piece that says I fix crappy work.
*Dang, Ryan. Ain't AZ grand? The very first thought that came to my mind is that you better add a whole lot of giggles to make it worth your while. This guy already has demonstrated his propensity for wanting something better than what he's willing to pay. Now, you are going to jump into the mix. You know, the burden falls to the hired gun. You da fixit man and he wants you for a song. I can hear him now, "Why so much, it sure didn't cost anywhere that for what I got now!" Rotsa ruck.
*I agree. Run from this one. Mr cheap will break youand this will come back to bite you.
*Well someone else here once made this statement and it bears repeating..."As long as these guys keep getting paid they'll always be around!'... Am I RIGHT?....Sounds like T&M TIME to me. Hit him hard the first week and see what he really is up to then cover your rear end X3. Do you really need the hastle ...think about it. GOOD LUCK.
*Ryan, See those responses from Rich, Nigel and Jerry? Listen to that advice. Your potential client is already in a real negative zone and will be using you to recoup from his stupidity or naievete or both. The last time I was asked if I wanted to involve myself in a rescue operation like that I told my prospective client that I would need $5,000.00 up front and when that was gone I would require another deposit before continuing. He was not amused. He managed to go through one more framer and then the bank came and took the house back leaving some darn good people holding the bag. It could go your way but I think you would have better odds in Las Vegas.
*Wouldn't it be cheaper to knock it down and start over?
*Thanks everyone but I'm gonna bid this one.I've already considered the problems you've mentioned. I'll provide really detailed specs with sketches so he can't say he didn't understand. I'll set up a weekly payment schedule and get a deposit upfront so if he stops paying, I'll leave the job half done and still make some money.The most likely thing is he'll see what it costs to have it done right and he'll abandon the whole thing and keep living in his kitchen.
*Ryan--at least go to your local lawyer before doing this. Have her draft a release form and indemnity agreement and a hold harmless that protects you from the inevitable lawsuit when a. He's not happy no matter what you do, and something fails that you never laid a hand on.b. You walk off the job because he stopped paying and damage results(e.g., weather) from the lack of completion.In Calif. the statute of limitations for construction defects is 10 yrs. The next owner will find the problems, and sue you and everyone involved. At the least, talk to your insurance guy and make sure you're covered.
*Ryan, I'm agreeing with the others. Unless you desperately need the work, stay clear. Having read your posts here and at JLC, I have a feel for the type of work you do and the knowledge you have, and suspect you may be tempted to make a heroic effort to turn this project into a satiafactory job. I just feel the risks may outweigh the potential rewards.Also, I wouldn't walk off a job without consulting your attorney.From the nature of the responses you've received here, my initial idea of reading these posts to the client may not go over too well!In any case, here's hoping it all turns out well for you... Regards, Steve
*Ryan,Something I think hasn't been mentioned. If your client is currently in litigation with the builder, you may be doing him a disservice by making any modifications to the addition. (If he is not, I would wonder too!) If you make any attempt to correct the problem it would seem to me that the builder could be released from all liabilty or at a minumum would have an easier time defending a lawsuit if someone else is on record of having done work to the structure. It would become an issue of who did what work, and forensic carpentry is not recognized as an exact science. I fall for this type of thing too on occasion, but this is not a can of worms I would willingly climb into.Contrary to what others have said, your lawyer cannot save you from this one. Only your experience and common sense can, if you listen to them.A brief example from my recent bid book if you will. Got a call for a shell addition over a garage. No plans, but I had drawn a sketch that was to their liking. There were a few structural and design problems that needed clarification, and I gave a price on the sketch based on and including further design and engineering service/fees. I did not get the job and someone, maybe even the homeowner, is building the addition... just like my sketch. I took a good enough look to see that one or two of the structural concerns were addressed but the design considerations weren't. I'm going to stop in in a few weeks and here the shoulda, coulda, wouldas, but the point is I stand by my intuition in refusing to do the job without the design and engineering completed. I had fifteen hours into when I asked myself how bad I wanted the job on someone elses terms. I guess you gotta ask yourself what is the likelihood that you will be glad you took the job six weeks( or whatever) from now?Best of luck as always, and let us know how you make out.Tom
*Ryan & All, what was that "Watch the Moron loose his ass remodeling his house" that was a cable show recently? This sounds like the script for another of the same......starring Ryan C if he isn't careful. No one is giving out any ambiguity, the answers are all the same. Run, don't walk. Good luck, Joe H
*RE: Ryan's post (10.0)Oh sure, Ryan. You think you have all the bases covered? Well, for starters, if you have a written, signed contract and you stop work because of non-payment, you'll find your sorry ass in court in a heartbeat. His non-payment is a material breach, but so is your stop work. No win-no win. Whether or not you agree, you have more to lose: he's fairly comfortable in his rut and he knows the true value of what he has, you are trying to grow a business and you're gonna' put it on the line.In some states, the amount of a deposit is limited by law. If you don't yet know, you better find out. And how really detailed do you think you can be in those sketches? You know how hard it is to anticipate every little thing, but that is just what you're talking here. Hit him with change orders? Okay, but you're talking about using them as part of some defensive strategy; not how they're supposed to be.I've been in the same boat Ryan. Now I know better. It's up to you, but I hope it's not your ego or illusions of grandeur leading you into this.
*<>Depending on what's occured to date, a lawyer could help him get out of the minefield he's started walking into.I think a little risk/benefit analysis is called for here. What's the benefit? Hopefully (not certainly) some profit and maybe some good will. What's the risk? Getting dragged into law suits either directly in connection with the project itself or indirectly from some poor injured sucker down the road, or subsequent purchaser. The financial and emotional costs of such a scenario are very high. What's the likelihood of something like that happening? Maybe not high, but higher than an "ordinary" job.Bob
*ryan...that last post by rich started my memory back to the only job i wound up in dispute that i could not resolve..the only thing that saved me was i had an arbitration clause....in the end.. the homeowner , who sounds very much like yours,..held about $3600...the arbitrator awarded him $1800... and i was glad to limit the damage........i thot i could do better and satisfy this guy where other contractors had not been successful..now... when i hear that the owner had a dispute with a previous contractor i get very inquisitive...no matter what the previous contractor's reputation..b once burned ...twice wary....
*Ryan,I've always enjoyed reading your posts and comments. I believe that you take pride in your work and try to perform to the best of your abilities.I believe that no doubt you could do a good job of correcting the last bum's mistakes, however, I too agree with everyone else; WALK AWAY FROM THIS ONE!If the homeowner is currently in litigation, DEFINATELY WALK AWAY. One more thing. If you know the name of the outfit who did this work, report them to your City/County Building Inspector. People who do shoddy work and try to pass themselves off as skilled carpenters are not just doing a disservice to the homeowner, but also to all skilled craftsmen who don on a tool belt.Its because of these likes, that carpenter wages are still way lower than other respected crafts.We may be "blue collar", but dammit, we are professionals. Trouble is, we will never be considered pros unless we drive out the hacks. Code enforcement is one way of ensuring quality workmanship. Every carpenter/builder should welcome building inspectors (though at times they too are a pain) on their jobsites. Such enforcement will help to eliminate the "bottom feeders" from our craft, and help to solidify the honest, skilled builders, who want to make an honest buck and be rightfully paid for his skills.Davo.
*I don't know how the construction industry is in your area, but in ours its booming. If this were the case in your area, I'd pass on inherited building nightmares in exchange for more promising work.(Bob, why would you require a signed/certified letter of warning to the individual if you're not taking the job? What state do you live in that requires such liability in looking at a potential job? I think you'd open yourself up to more liability if your professional opinions (in writing) are ever challenged.)
*J.R.,I'd want to document that I'd warned the homeowner of the problems, especially the safety concerns. Maybe the certified letter approach is overkill, though.This is something I've thought about a bit. As a home inspector, I'm in different situation, but I think anyone who's taken a look at a house and seen significant safety concerns ought to (i) warn the homeowner and (ii) document the warning. If anyone gets hurt, whoever worked on or looked at the situation is likely to have a litigator trying to draw a bead.My attention was focused on this last summer when I got a call reporting that a house I'd inspected had burned down: "they think it was electrical." Fortunately, no one was hurt.I'd seen such huge problems in the main panel and elsewhere in the system that I'd told the homeowner that he should have an electrician check the system that day: "Not tomorrow or next week but Today! Personally, I wouldn't spend 1 night in this house until it was completely checked out and repaired as needed by an electrician."The buyer was also there, and heard the warning, and I'd documented the problems in the inspection report, but in thinking about it after the fact, I found myself wishing that I'd documented the warning to the homeowner, as well. (My inspection report goes to the buyer; it's up to the buyer whether he gives a copy to the seller.)I'd love to learn more about what was done after the inspection, but I'm keeping my head down. I figure an insurance co. paid off on the loss, and would love to have someone to stick it to, like me and my insurance co. They can do that under the principle of subrogation: when they've paid a loss, the get the insured's legal rights against whoever the insured might have had a claim against.I don't know the ins and outs of a "duty to warn" (and it probably varies from state to state,) but I figure if I err on the side of caution, I won't have to hire a lawyer to defend me and learn about that duty's details the hard way.Bob
*I'm with the run like hell group. In your shoes my reasoning would be: the goofs I have spotted so far are of the sort that tells me the perp had no grasp at all of how/why things are built. I would assume he couldn't use the right gauge nail, in the right place, in the right number for the joint. I mean literally. I guess no permit & no inspectors? If you do do it I'll pray for you, but my batting average on answered prayers is not so hot...
*J.R.I originally missed your point: >Good point. As home inspector, I hold myself out as a generalist, so when I point out a problem, in many cases, I describe it as a potential problem and recommend that they get a specialist to examine it. (Not all of the time, of course. For example, I didn't have to take that route yesterday when I called out a 50 A breaker with #10 cu feeding a clothes dryer as a problem.)I also cya by describing both what I have looked at and whet I haven't. (Lawyers always start their legal memos by describing the question the client has asked and the facts that they have been given. Same principle.)In some cases I'll cite the authority my opinion is based on. For example, in my neck of the woods (NWOhio) there are many homes with knob and tube insulation buried in thermal insulation. Most of the electricians around here do not consider it to be a hazard. When I call that out as a problem, I cite the NEC section which prohibits that, as well as several electrical books which describe it as a fire hazard. I also orally tell my clients that, as a matter of law, licensed electricians know more than I do, but here's my opinion and why.A contractor looking at a potential job would be, at least to some extent, in a different situation, of course. For obvious and significant safety hazards, I still think a written warning is important as a cya. The issue gets a ot thornier when you see a "potential" problem which would require either additional investigation or specialized knowledge outside your field.I'd like to hear AndrewD's take on this issue.Bob