Doing some work on a house for the sellers to statisfy buyer and home inspector. The house inspector listed missing kickout flashing on east side of roof water could get behind siding.
This is a warp around, one story, pitched porch roof. The roof then hits the side wall of the second floor. this is where he says it is missing. There is step flashing between the shingles and the side wall on the slope side and contintionus flashing where the ridge mets the wall.
So what is kick out flashing? I think it is an angled piece of flashing that goes under the shingle to wake water away from the side wall. Only have seen it on one house in Boise Idaho, my sisters, and when it was reroofed the roofer did not reinstall it.
We get so little rain here per year it is high desert. In an 8 hr period it may rain 0.25″ that is heavy.
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We bring the first piece of flashing on a roof that meets a wall out onto the siding. The rest of the step flashing goes completely under the siding. The theory is that water will not run behind the siding but out onto its surface. I don't think that this really makes much difference except in an area (on the house) where there is a lot of water hitting the siding. This should not be too difficult to install after the fact though it might not be quite as perfectly done as it would at the time of the roofing.
On the other hand, maybe the inspector means something completely different.
After two days I finally got the inspector and basically that is what he means with a slight variation. He described it more like one of those cheap plastic shower corners you can get for the corners of tubs in that the metal flashing is bent into somewhat of a triangle. But new or old house I have never seen it installed here in town. It is not even on my house and in have four areas like that. The soffits of the second floor roof are 18" deep and are right above so very little water gets back there.
To install it now may be a chore with out removing siding because the siding is cut very close to the shingle surface,about a quarter of an inch. I suppose I could slit the siding at the drip edge and remove the first course or two of siding on the roof side,side a piece of step flashing under existing step flashing and bring it out over the siding. The siding is fiber board.
It just seem to be a very silly thing to contend a house sale on,the buyers want done though, the sellers'agent is telling the seller (My customer) to do it. My customer is upset because first there was one list of things needing correcting then two days later this other list came in after the first list was satisfied
When there is a large overhang, there may be less practical need for a kickout flashing, but the argument that most houses do not have it is not appropriate. "Most houses" are built on an extremely tight budget with most subcontractors being the lowball price teams. I worked for a couple of them for years when I started my career ands I put in a lot of sidewall flashings with no kickouts. I asked a couple times, "What about the water that runs in right there?"
"Too much tiome to bend and add that little piece. Don't worry about it." was always the answer.
But since the advent of the EIPS systems that catch more water and then hold it, along with an escalation in mold claims, the industry is aware that it is time to worry about it. So knowledgeable inspectors and quality craftsmen do add the kickout flashing to the list..
Excellence is its own reward!
If your customer wants this done, go ahead and do it. It is possible to cheat a little on this by not tying in properly to the step flashing above. It is a lot easier if the kickout piece is intalled on top of the step flashing and under the bottom shingle course and of course on top of the siding. Yes, a little water that is actually in the step flashing can still penetrate in that little hole but any water on the shingles will be directed onto the siding surface. It is not perfect but will take care of 95% of a problem that is not that big to start with.
I can tell you that the seller's agent (my wife is one) is a lot more nervous about this than your customer. They have worked hard for this sale and don't want it to fall apart for a tiny little problem. If I was the seller I would fix one list and then ask for more money for anything else. It sounds like the buyer is getting cold feet.
Can you attach a drawing or picture of this "kick out" flashing? I think I have the right mental picture, but I am not quite sure.
The house I am building has a roof intersecting a wall, and then the next roof is only about a foot higher on that wall. No overhang on the upper roof. Exterior Insulated Finish System meets the lower roof.
I haven't even got the foundation walls poured yet, but that flashing detail has been bugging me for several months now.
Dave
I'm sorry but I can't attach a picture or drawing and frankly I might have a hard time drawing it. Almost all of our house have wood siding. If the siding is not on, I leave the bottom piece of flashing a little loose so that the siding can slide behind it. If we are roofing with the siding on, I pry this piece of siding up and slide the kickout piece under it. I am sure that your EIFS suppliers/manufactures can supply you with the necessary details. In your case this kickout detail is not optional. Failure at this spot would be disastrous.
For those of us in the repair business, this kickout flashing has been a money maker. It is a detail which was well done in the good old days, but forgotten in the modern era. It usually isn't vinyl siding where the need for this occurs. The need for the kickout comes with stucco, EIFS, applied stone veneers, and sometimes wood siding depending on trim design.
I have included photos of two homes, one without kickout, one with. Both homes are less than 5 years old. They both have applied stone veneers. In the photos labeled "Wrong", the house leaks like a sieve as water running down the step flashing is funneled behind the stone at the last step flashing. The photos labeled "Better" show photos of a similar situation, one is a zoomed image of the "kickout". It is bone dry inside.
For wally, I understand that you don't get much rain, but if you don't divert the rain away at the bottom corner, you are going to have a leaker.
carpenter in transition
Your better pics are what I have always done, or very similar. I thought my mental picture was what they were talking about....just never heard it called "kick out " flashing.
Thanks,
Dave
You are right the sellers agent is the one that is telling my customer (the seller) to just get it done. It took about 8 months and two realtors to get the house sold.
It is one of those thing that is the easiest to handle as the house is been built. If done right at the start it would of taken 5 minutes instead of a couple of hours now. I just never heard it called Kickout flashing, all the inspector needed to say is bottom edge of lowest step flashing does not over lap siding. I might be able to do something with some scrapes of ice dam material at this point.
Here's a picture of one from a commercial site:
View Image
Generally you should use 'em when a roof eave dies against a side wall (that is, the side wall continues past the end of a eave, as in the picture.)
As noted, they used to be used a lot, before the days of vinyl.
Their importance has reappeared with the advent of EIFS.
They should be used for this situiation anytime the siding material is going to be relatively watertight and potenrtiall trap water behind it. (Vinyl is designed to allow water to seep out theough the weep holes so we've gotten awat with not using it with vinyl.)
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Vinyl is designed to let water weep out through weep holes....
I just finished two repair jobs of rotted sheathing board behind vinyl siding. One at an eave detail like your post, and one at an inside corner, where the vinyl butted to a brick veneer. Neither job had tyvek or felt paper behind the siding, just that foil faced craft paper. What really caught my attention was that the weep holes were clogged with all manner of junk.
Sometime ago Inspector Bob and I had a discussion about house wrap or felt paper required behind vinyl. It is not required in my code book, but I consider it poor practice to not use it.
I think the same can now be said for the kick out flashing.
Dave
Dave, I agree; I was trying to say that it usually isn't a problem with vinyl, but as you point out, it certainly can be.
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I know Bob.
I think Inspector Bob has left us, but he pretty well ate my lunch on that one. I guess I have learned from both of you, not to make to broad a catagorical statement.
Dave
Thanks Bob and to everone else.
Bob your photo is exactly my situation. Where can one get the flashing you show in the photo. A vinyl siding dealer? My customer lived in Florida before here, she remembers all houses there having them.
The roofing guys make 'em up in my area from standard flashing stock.
Take ####piece of L flashing a tad longer than you need.
Cut along the bend a few inches from one end (the end which will end up at the bottom.) On the vertical "leg," bend the the overlap in, rounding it, over the horizontal piece. Bend the "horizontal" piece up behind the bend and rivet together.
Does that make any sense? (It makes perfect sense to me, but I'm seeing it in mind, just don't know if I'm communicating it right {G})
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I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
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Hmmm. "****???"
I think all I said was take a bent _b e n t_ piece of flashing .....
Well, it wasn't "bent," but I'll be **** if I can remember what I said there that got Prosperoed
"You have the right to be asterisked; everything you say may and will be used agaisnt you in a **** of ****!"
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Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Edited 1/26/2004 4:24:04 PM ET by Bob Walker
Add some caulk along the corner all should be fine!
Sure. That'll work fine for about two years..
Excellence is its own reward!
2 years ... that long huh????
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Some people live a charmed life!
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Got er done! I did as you said execpt I cut the vertical so it would be wider then the horizental tab bent the horizental up first the vertical behind it then crimped the wider tab over the other to join them together. It would of been a good time to use my new riveter but oh well
Took four hours to do two. First was a little easier the siding was 16" wide, on the first I had to cut a little triangle of siding off, trim shingles, and side the kickout flashing under the existing flashing, The second one had to remove one piece of siding, drop the gutter, install flashing, slit the siding reinstall everything. Did I mention there was a snow flurry that changed to rain.
Once again thanks.
ROFLOL - I'll get right on it!*
We should have a solution in a few hundred acrimonious messages, but will anyone be awake (or alive) to see it? {G,D&R}
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Me: >> *&% &^$#^@) ^@#@#**!$ #%&$(@???
Gabe: >> *&$%?+#@#@ *&!@$#% &^##$@+~!!!
ETC, Etc, etc .....
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!