In choosing cabs for a kitchen, I know that plywood is a superier material, but it is really necessary and worth an extra $1000 to $1500 total? My choice is between upper mid range cabs that let you choose construction quality. Think Thomasville or similar, not the crap Mills Pride stuff.
I have had more than one person say to me that the particule board cabs will last as long as you’ll want the kitchen (20 years) and ply cabs will alst 50 years, but who cares if you remodel every 20 years. Thoughts?
Replies
The difference in price between melamine(white thermal fused particle board) and plywood as in birch or maple is only about $15-20 per sheet. An average kitchen is around 20 sheets of 3/4". So the price of material, unfinished is really not that much$400. Buy from a good source either shop or manufactured grade. You don't need A2 for interiors. Add about 2 gal of sealer and 2 gal of lacquer and that's approx another $60-$150.
If you are talking about plywood cabs with wood face frame vs, frameless melamine cabs, then that is probably a more accurate $ you are figuring considering the cost of material for the face frames. Labor is higher on face frame cabinets, but I know of shops that disagree with that statement.
I've been doing frameless cabs for 20+ years and I have all the machinery for this method. I'm thinking of faceframe cabs in my own house, mainly to keep with the "original style" of the home.
I'll warn against Thomasville, they are made by the same company that make Merillat cabinets. We've had a multitude of problems lately with the finish quality of Merillat cabinetry.
Neil,Can you expound on your problems with Merillat? We have been using them a for a while, although we do not do a lot of kitchens. I have Merillat in my home and I've never had any issues but they're only about 9 months old.What brands are you favoring?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Junk? Interesting question.Used to be all cabinets wre 3/4 plywood, shop grade with solid wood face frames.Then some tried to suggest we make them out of 1/2 since the strength comes from the house structure.Thomas Ville are 3/8 partical board???!!! Seems like offering to go to "solid wood construction" as an upsell item only means to use plywood.Wasn't pleased with my last years experience with ThomasVille. Many boards didn't line up. Not much meat to bite into for screws, awkward box construction and no room for the crown molding they sold and limited profiles. Not to mention all the limited skills of the registerd Kitchem Professionals at Home Depot. Had to use them, since the client lived in Texas, was visiting Colorado and the home was in CA.
Listen to this you old farts!
Build the cabinet as long as the space it is going to fit into.
Solid face frames. AB fir ply inside.( or birch ).
Finished ends to match the face frames. DUH!
Sub out the doors and dwr fronts.
Use up to date hardware.
Now your cabinets are custom, waterproof, and bullet proof
TRIGGER
Sorry, I've been sippen.
73439.1
That should explain most of it.
It's not on every cabinet we've ordered but over the last year or so they've taken a huge dive in finish quality, IMO they lack quality control. Prior to this the company had used Merillat exclusively for 25 years or so.
I've switched us to Medallion cabinets for now, I've sold three kitchens with them but we've yet to install any as of yet. I saw a few cab's at our suppliers showroom and took his word that they were higher quality. Cost wise they are a tad more.
Medallion has been pretty good in my experience. I hope you find them to be decent in quality, price and service.
I hope so too ;)
They appeared well constructed, first set is scheduled for delivery tue the 22nd so I guess I'll know for sure then
Particle board sucks.
Big time.
Flat presto logs.
Stinks for a few years also unless the HO has a blotto nose.
The Teak kitchen cabinets in own DIY home are 33 YO, should last another many decades (or few until we die and the house gets razed for an 80 unit condo).
So much for bulding to last.
Particle board still sucks.
Build my sheds in anticipation of posthumus condos, still dont use particle board crap on those even, as wont even last till we die. . (See cheapest shed yet thread)
I agree with what you say about particle board. Just personal preference. I'm just a DIYer but I don't even like using OSB. I'm about ready to have a new garage/shop/studio built and wonder if I'm crazy to spend the extra $ on plywood. Any thoughts?
...keep smiling...makes 'em wonder what you're up to !!
shed? did someone say shed?
59103.1
be thinking a cheadest shed made from demo'd 1/2" southern core PB cabinets
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Ya dont see a single piece of PB in that shed, do you?
Nope.
be wasn't built cheap enough
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Hey, My kids just left the building.
So......
I won't be available for about 4.5 min.
Thanks in advance.
TRIGGER
Can I comment?
YEP! I mean NOOUP!
TRIGGER
Particle board is OK, ply is twice as nice. Pay maybe an extra 10% on your cabinet order for ply and have a far superior product. Also if shipping costs involve weight as a factor, plywood is much lighter.
Half of the problems we have with cabinet orders are damage in shipping. Plywood cabinets are lighter and stronger so they tend to show up in better shape at their destination.
Installing plywood cabinets is a pleasure...particle boad is heavy and weak.
Not all particle boards are of equal quality (Thomasville particle board is of very low quality--weak, thin, crumbly).
Better mid-range cabinets are KraftMaid, Medallion, Shrock, Omega (in that order IMO)
Whether they be cheap or expensive, manufactured cabinets are probably going to be made out of particleboard. And in the case of US market cabinets, that particleboard is unregulated as to formaldehyde content. IKEA being the conspicuous exception.One company that stands out is Neff, which not only used plywood, but marine grade plywood that is specially formulated so as not to degrade indoor air quality. I have no idea about the price of Neff cabinets, but if you want a quality case, it might be worth looking into.
The last kitchen I did was the Lowes home brand Shenandoah, we ordered all plywood sides where you will see exposed ends, or likely contact with moisure, there is a huge difference in the look of the ends, the plywood has a wood veneer to match the face frames, and the PB had a melamine type finish that does not match the face frames.
So aethetics is another reason to consider ply vs. pb
"Whether they be cheap or expensive, manufactured cabinets are probably going to be made out of particleboard."Many manufactured cabinet companies offer plywood constuction as an upgrade, that is what the OP was asking about. Also, some cheap cabinets are oddly all plywood box (Tru-wood brand).
No to hijack my own message, but ...What are your experiences with different grades or the quality level of particle board. Do the more expensive cabs truly have a better grade of particle board, (or whatever sales term they use)?
Do the more expensive cabs truly have a better grade of particle board
Absolutely!
I'm assuming that your talking about store bought cabinets as opposed to custom built so that may not be as convincing of an "Absolute" as I'd like it to be.
I wouldn't listen to some of these guys that are telling you that all particle board is junk, not so. As was mentioned, there is different grades of particle board.
Here is a couple pictures of some cabinets that I built using particle board, this is the best grade of particle board available, didn't come from the big box stores.
In this case the HO wanted the melamine on the inside of his cabinets so this was the only practical way to achieve that.
All particle board is not created equal just as all plywood is not the same. I know a cabinet shop in Austin, TX that is building all their carcasses out of Chinese Birch, if paint grade, even the exposed cabinet is Chinese Birch, that's not the same as good quality cabinet grade ply.
You have to decide what your budget will allow you to spend and what you can live with. The house that we live in has some cheap oak 3/8" particle board cabinets and they've been here for 30 years, if I wasn't going to rip them out and build new I'd assume that they might make it another 20 years.
Doug
Really nice!
However, some base cabinets are subject to moisture.
TRIGGER
However, some base cabinets are subject to moisture
Why? I dont let my cabinets sit in water, dont know about anybody else but I cant remember last time I had water in the cabinets.
Doug
You should have me do your plumbing then.
Doug.
You got the best of both. clean interiors with the traditional look.
WHO made the cab's for you? ;)
YCF D
Those are nice and crisp, what we'd expect from you.
I too have no problem with particle board, so long as it's meant for cabinets (45#). My last employee job was for a high-end builder here. I converted them from using birch ply to particle board (melamine) for carcases. Melamine was immensely flatter.
The problem was: they weren't allowing a decent interior finish, which is considerably more than the cost of the coating material. As a result, the melamine boxes were a distinct upgrade from the poorly finished birch by my predecessor. One look, and touch, and my employers were sold. Getting them to accept dovetailed drawers was much more difficult.
In our area, with large historical interest, a not unusual request is about "traditional" cabinets. Oxymoron of course. Traditionally, kitchens didn't have cabinets. So I offered to build a table.... What they were really asking about was not using sheet goods. Few want to pay the freight. Nor do they appreciate turning the raised side of the door panel in.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Spam and foie gras are essentially the same thing...Actually, there is something even below particleboard in terms of quality, and that's the hollow-core particleboard that the Japanese use in all their casegoods. It's amounts to two sheets of 1/8 inch melamine with strategically placed spacer blocks. Talk about cheesy.
My "particle board" cabinets are 27 years old are as good as new.However, they where made by a local cabinet shop. They constist of 1 to 3 section boxes that where installed and then continous face frame installed over the total so it is not a series of boxes that are stacked next to each other.Wall (except for exposed ones), top, bottom, shelfs, and back are particle board. The PB is fairly dense and tight. It uses matrix of different size particals.
A decent custom cabinetmaker is well worth the lower price paid for a better product.
I'd never buy stock cabs again.
Plywood is definitely worth the extra $ when it comes to cabinet construction. It is stronger, lighter, holds fasteners better, and is much easier for the tradesman to install. All around it is a much better choice.
I have been installing cabinetry for 28 years, so I have developed this opinion from experience. We don't call particle board by that name anymore. We now call it "furniture core". It sounds better and makes clients think of their cabinets as furniture, which I think is accurate. To the best of my knowledge there are 2 types of PB, "western core" and "southern core", with WC having better quality.
Being a trim carpenter I always try and steer my clients to the plywood cabs. It usually is not too difficult to convince them to spend the extra bucks.
sully
"To the best of my knowledge there are 2 types of PB, "western core" and "southern core", with WC having better quality. "I thinks that what mine are made from.One local supply list "Partical Board - Industrial, west coast 45lb, all white pine"And it comes in 49x97", 49x121, and also 25, 30, and 36" width and upto 145" lenght.And 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 1 and 1 1/8 thickness.
Yeah it sounds like it. From what I understand the southern core can have small pebbles in it (don't know why) and it is not as dense as the western core.
Either way, I still prefer plywood. Price is not an issue either because as someone mentioned before, some stock cabs are made from ply. We are a dealer for Kabinart which is an "all wood" cabinet with the box being made from 3/8" ply. Still better than furniture core.
sully
If you are a homeowner trying to save some bucks then, PB over ply is a viable option. Some cabinet company's use 5/8" PB with solid backs and white or wood grain melamine interiors. On the whole these hold up ok, but if they get wet like a sink base the cab will swell and fall apart. You can order just a few cabinets in plywood like the sink base. I prefer plywood cabinets just seem to hold up better and better to install, but once the PB cabinets are in they usually are fine.
The PB cabinets alway come on the job site with some damage from shipping mostly broken corners on the bases, or someone put his knee through the side trying to move it. Never pick up a heavy base with the cheap particle board cross cleat.
If it was my kitchen I would go ply, save some bucks somewhere else.
Jeff
I'll throw my $.02 in here....It all depends on the job and the budget. 5/8" white melamine is what we used primarily in middle/lower end jobs. We always insisted on using plywood on vanities and sink bases. Our cabinets were face frame cabinets and when we were asked to do frameless, we would use 3/4" plywood.
Some people/companies staple their cabinets together, some use joinery. That being said, I was just on a job where $21,000 dollars of frameless cabinets were installed and they were built out of 1/2" plywood and half lapped. They sucked beyond belief and the 42" doors were being readjusted daily.
My cabinets (which will be built whithin the next month) will be 3/4" plywood dadoed and rabbeted , glued and screwed together. 1/2" drawers including bottoms and using full extension drawer guides.