Here’s the situation:
I’ve been hired to build 4 new wall cabinets with a double set of doors (i.e. top and bottom), and build new doors/drawer fronts for the old base cabinets.
The old wall cabinets had a 15″ soffit (drywall)) above the cabinets, disguising the fact that the ceiling in one corner of the kitchen swoops up 2″. One leg of this corner is about 4′ (45″) and the other leg will be about 6′.
She wants the new wall cabinets to extend all the way to the ceiling, with a crown molding.
The Problem: It is easy enough to build a tapered face frame across the top, but the crown will obviously accentuate the 2″ difference in ceiling height, and I think it will look pretty crappy.
I have already suggested we drop the cabinets down 6″, and maybe run a strip of lights across the top of the cabs. She says no, since the whole idea is to gain more storage space.
And she won’t even talk about fixing the ceiling.
The Question: Aside from running the crown “uphill” and “let it be what it will be” — does anyone have any other clever suggestions to solve this problem?
Thanks — I need help here.
********************************************************
“It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts.”
John Wooden 1910-
Replies
Just a lovely situation.
I would follow the ceiling on the 6' run, but would split the difference on the 2 inches. 1/2" over-lay doors would help, as would the filler above cabinets as you mentioned. And you can start the crown on a low angle and twist it to a high angle at the end of the run.
You don't have to go silly like this pic. but going vertical with fairly plain moldings before the crown could help. Cheat a little on each course, filler, inverted base, crown.
I like your idea of starting one end of the crown with a low angle and then twisting it to a higher angle at the other end (of the 6' run).However, the end with the low angle is an end cabinet, and I would have to figure out a way to get a return for the crown on that end. Aside from playing around with the miter angles, any ideas for getting that outside corner to look half-way decent?
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If you do it the way she wants, it'll never look right. If you can create some kind of overlapping crown moulding, you can bring it out a little more in the corner where the ceiling swoops up. My ceiling was ALL messed up in my kitchen bit I fixed it as much as possible. Getting rid of the swoop shouldn't be that hard with a couple of layers of 1/4" drywall and a little mud.
If you want to show her how it will look, do a mock-up with a cardboard box and some crown scraps, holding up in that corner. IMO, it's gonna look like crap and it'll be your name she throws out when people ask who did the job.
I agree with Highfigh -- "If you want to show her how it will look, do a mock-up with a cardboard box and some crown scraps, holding up in that corner. IMO, it's gonna look like crap and it'll be your name she throws out when people ask who did the job."
You know it won't look right because you don't have to see it done to know that. I would bet your customer doesn't realize how strange it will look unless you actually show her a mock up.
If after showing her the mock up she still insists it's just gotta be the way she says, then I agree with the split the difference approach or, if possible, even just make it level with the cabs and forget the ceiling so it's clear it's the ceiling that's off and not the cabs (sometimes it will actually look stranger if both the ceiling and crown are "off" -- can almost make it look like a haunted castle or fun house type thing with too much going on). Then again, a 2" gap at one end and tight to the ceiling at the other -- hmm -- that's a tough one no matter how you slice it. Already changed my own mind -- split the difference. ;-)
If it's any consolation, I do a lot of work in old houses and a lot of stuff in old houses already looks a little "off" with the "patina of time." So if that's the kind of place it is, it may not reflect badly at all on your part of the work. May just look like very nice work in an "off" old house and fit right in.
You're reminding me of a few related "old war stories," but I won't bore you with them. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
and to highfigh and Frankie --I think this is great advice; I really don't think she can envision how bad it is going to look. So I went into the shop tonight and made some story boards I can screw to the wall, and a mock-up of the crown. That way, she will be able to see exactly how bad the problem is.Here below is a hamfisted rendering of the worst run. The ceiling slops gradually from the low to the high point. (corner)______________<72">________________________
68" 66" from ceiling
from ceiling to to counter top
counter top********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I thought about your suggestion of making my face frames uniform, tacking on the crown, and let the ceiling run where it will. I too do most of my work in old houses, and I often work with a guy who's favorite uttering is --- "it is what it is".I think I would rather make the cabinets look right, even though that would accentuate how kitty-wampus the ceiling is. Nonetheless, a crown that would be tight to the ceiling on one end of the run and have a 2"space to the ceiling on the other end ....... -- well, that won't look very sharp. And you say something about "splitting the difference." I would be grateful if you could flesh that out some. I obviously can't vary the door heights, so the only way I could think of to make up the difference was to vary the height of the face frame rising above the top of the cabinet.With the time I have spent chewing on this problem, I probably could have had the cabinets built by now.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
>>"And you say something about "splitting the difference."
For the "upside down base" part of the top trim, use a very plain profile. Let that rise the 1". When you put the crown on that, let that rise the second 1". You will still get the "fun house" effect on the one end, but from face frame to the "bottom" of the upside down base profile to the crown, it will look more like a taper than a "tilt." Mock it up to see what you and customer thinks looks best.
To reduce the effect further, you can also shave the "low" end of each a bit on the ceiling side to bring them up, but with a 2" difference, I don't think that would help a whole lot and with everything else that's going on there, a change in the profile at the top of the crown might look like more of a neon sign saying "hey, look HERE, something's different" instead of improving the situation. ;-)
I will tell a quick old war story. Trimming out a small room that has a plumbing chase, ceiling is flat and level (a slab of oak made up of 3/4" x 4" t&g flooring). The chase is square but not square to the wall (whoever installed it a zillion years ago didn't bother). Trim is two pieces of "upside down base" built up and then the crown (about 8 1/2" total height IIRC). Where it jogs around the chase, it all appears to tilt up toward the ceiling because the chase being out of square to the wall fools the eye. The eye expects it to be square to the wall and since it's not, it really looks like it tilts up. I tilted the "base" pieces down slightly to reduce the effect, but even tilting down (can prove it off the ceiling with a ruler and it definitely tilts down), it looks like it tilts up.
So when you mock up what you're doing there, what looks best may depend on a lot of factors beyond just the ceiling, so maybe just do what looks best to the eye.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 5/1/2006 8:45 am ET by philarenewal
Sometimes it is hard to have a Client accept the inevitable - it's going to look bad. I admire your dedication to finding an alternate solution.
Having been presented a similar situation in the past, I do not have a remedy for you which you have not considered. One thing I can recommend though, be sure to get her approval of the cabinet/ crown design and their relation to the ceiling. If you have a drawing, be sure that she signs the drawing and confirms her awareness of the ceiling slope and the crown following the slope.
This will serve two purposes:
1) She will be accepting full responsibility for the design and recommiting her obligation to pay you for work done regardless of how rediculous it looks.
2) She will take notice of your efforts to insolate yourself from her design/ space trade-off and reconsider her choice.
Good luck,
Frankie
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Does the ceiling swoop up in one spot or does the rest of the ceiling droop? In my experience most joists, not all sag over time. What I have done in the past is make my own strongbacks to try and even the sag out. I try to span the whole room with 2x6 standing up nailed to 2x4 on flat. Drill holes in 2x4, and use lag bolts to take up difference. This works well most time. If your ceiling swoops up maybe cut bad one and sister from the attic side.
I practically begged her to either let me drop the cabinets away from the ceiling, or let me fix the ceiling. but she would have none of either. But let me also say, I really like this woman; she has three young children, and messing with the ceiling would be a major inconvenience for the family.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Sometimes it is best to send them somewhere else but you.
I agree that sometimes this is the case, but in this situation, I would like to emphasize that these are very nice people, and a real pleasure to work with.Besides, don't we all like to be problem solvers? And with the help of all you BTer's, if I can find some reasonable way to resolve this ceiling problem, the rest of the job should be smooth sailing.I realize there is no perfect solution (save fixing the ceiling), but I think it is worth sorting through the alternatives to find the one that is least painful.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't think it is an impossible challenge--making it look good. If you run the cabinets uphill by 1" (splitting the diff. on the 2"), you will ONLY have 1" to make up with moldings.One inch in 72", why that is less than a 1.5% slope (not great for cabinet work, but not enough to tip wine glasses over).To make up the inch at the top, make the face-frames taller than they need to be so the climb of the molding is not as noticable. To make up that 1", you need to climb just under 3/16" per foot.The 3/16" per foot can be divided up by "cheating" each layer just under 1/16" per foot. For instance the top of face-frame reveal can go from 2" at one end to 2-3/8" at the other. Same with crown over inverted base (gain another 3/8"). The crown just needs to twist another 1/4", more or less. Get to within and 1/8" of the ceiling and caulk the rest if you need to.If you pull it off, you will look like a magician.
Problem is, this is not a built up crown -- merely a simple 2 1/2" off-the-shelf hard maple crown, and there is virtually no wiggle room.I don't have the room for anything much wider than that, since the cabinet box design now gives me a 15" door on the top and a 31" door on the bottom, and I really didn't want to mess with that.I have, however, done a lot of jobs with complicated built up crowns, so I do know what you're talking about.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Driving to the site today (1 1/2hrs) I was thinking about your situation (not the whole time). How about this for a solution? Each gets what they want.
Fabricate the cabinets with an applied/ built-on soffit which runs the cabinet length. This way the crown gets attached level.
Fabricate the soffit and cabinet so that the cabinet interior does NOT have a roof/ ceiling/ top. This way the Client gets full height use of the cabinet interior while maintaining a nice visual from the outside.
Is this Kitchen where a porch may have once been? Is the ceiling slope caused by a shallow pitched roof above? I have run into this before but the pitch was perpendicular to the cabinet runs rather than parallel. Makes a big difference.
Hope this helps.
Frankie
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
<<"Is this Kitchen where a porch may have once been?">>No, but it is an old house, and everything is pretty much of a mess as far as square, level and plumb is concerned. I knew that going in, but it wasn't until I put my laser on the kitchen hat I got really alarmed.I'm grateful for your long trip to the job site; your idea about a built up soffit was inspired. I have a Festool CS set-up, and I could certainly cut tapered pieces that would infill the varying spaces between the cabinets and the ceiling. That wouldn't change the ceiling problem, but at least the soffit could be painted, and would not be a black hole -- drawing even more attention to itself. Maybe we should put you to work thinking about solutions to the really big problems of our day on those long commutes................ ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If the cabinets slope toward the sink...put in a plate rack with a drain and then the slope is a required feature, not a defect ; > )
On a serious note, try printing out this thread and showing it to her.
Some people just need to hear things from more than one source, even if it is a discussion board on the 'net.
I think you're absolutely right. I am seeing her tomorrow, and planning to attach my "story sticks" to the wall so she can see exactly what the problem is.I don't know yet if I will give it to her, but I am going to print out this thread and take it along, in case it seems right to share it with her.So maybe I will say one more time here how teriffic she is...............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
yeah ... I remember U saying how great she was in that other thread ..
the one about our best customers!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Good looking, a body that won't quit, quick to pay.
What's not to like?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I think I will delete your post when I print this thread out for her. :) :) :)********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Why?
not so quick to pay?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
that's gotta be it ...
'cause I saw the pic's he posted in that other thread.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"in that other thread."
damn, I missed something important.
curses!A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The crown can be redone later, when the kids are older and she has the money to fix the ceiling. The release is a good idea, too. My first comment could be appended to the release.My customers love having an option to save money, and then spend some more later. They don't have their backs to the wall that way. However, they usually end up paying for it to be done right the first time, once they have had some time to mull over their options.Bill
Is there any way you can add a step in the crown at the ends? If you could cut the transition piece on a slight upward angle and the end continuing this slope, it could hide the ceiling's flaw. What about making the crown by building up the profile with separate pieces and if the top was vertical, you might be able to shave some material from the low end toward the high end. I don't know what profile you're going to use but a simple cove could work. I just had a thought- what about the flexible cove moulding that's available? You could open the cove as you go toward the high end and close the gap.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I think the best "none fix" (LOL!!!) would be to build the cabinet square adn straight. Apply the crown level and then fill the remaining gap to the ceiling with a tapered piece of wood.
However, FOR THE LORD's SAKE, . . . LADY . . . JUST FIX THE BLOODY CEILING!!!
LOL!!!!! Really! Just laughing hard!
Why not just follow the ceiling if she wants a quick and cheap fix? If she wants you to solve the problem, offer a series of fixes and prices and let her choose. Don't kill yourself solving this problem for free. If you are building the cabinets, you could build the last two a little taller, fudge the door reveals a little and fudge a little with the crown and that may hide the worst of it. Or call it rustic. :-)
Nothing is free in this world, including the time it is taking to figure out how best to deal with a ceiling she does not want to fix.I was twice as expensive as the other guy she considered for the job, so the issue here is not money.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That is weird! If it is not the money and you are twice as expensive, why will she not do the right thing and fix teh ceiling?
Bizzare.
3 small kids -- major disruption -- nothing much in the house is level/plumb/square............... she seems ok with it; I'm really the one who think it will look like crap.But I nailed up my story sticks with a mock up of the crown -- and if she is satisfied, then I'm off the hook.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikki ,
You as a professional have pointed out a condition and will do your best to work with it as the client wishes and accepts it as what it is .
Hey , look at it this way , at least you found out about it before you installed the job .
"a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse"
best of luck dusty
Nikkiwood, I once got myself involved in a similar project. It was quite the challenge, even for a world class boogerer like myself.
It was a fire job. The homeowner was right in the middle of a remod and the place burned. The stock cabinets burned too, but the insurance company wouldn't pay to have them installed, because they burned in their boxes.
I walked in and the entire ceiling was done in cedar t&g. There were island drops done in Cedar too. All I had to do is install the stock cabinets. The problem was that the island ceiling and drop was 1.5" out of level in about 5'. The problem was complicated because the homeowner was a tool and die machinist and was used to dealing with perfection.
Luckily, I didn't have to do a complicated crown. The Cabinets had a modern look and the trim moulding was much simpler.
The compromise: I split the difference on the intallation leaving them out of plumb. I shimmed the top and tapered the trim mouldings.
When you looked at the final installation, nothing looked right, but nothing looked wrong. I got paid. The machinist called me the biggest "compromisor" that he'd ever known, lol!
You gotta learn how to booger better.
blue
Well, she agree to fix the ceiling. I have worked with a union taper in the past, and got him to go by there with me for a look-see. He was really terrific in pointing out how easy it would be to straighten out and slap up a new ceiling -- without being invasive and overly messy. But I did print out this thread, and I think that was the thing that tipped the balance for her. When she saw this array of expert opinion, I think she began to see the light. So --- many thanks to all of you. Ironically, it looks like another job will come from all this. The taper has a friend who needs cabinets for his kitchen. And best of all for me, he seems willing to wait until after the summer -- when things slow down for me.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Ironically, it looks like another job will come from all this. The taper has a friend who needs cabinets for his kitchen. And best of all for me, he seems willing to wait until after the summer -- when things slow down for me.
I don't see that as ironic. That's called networking. The more you talk to others, the more opportunities will present themselves to you.
Congrats on getting that job done right.
blue
agreed.
I get alot of leads from my little network of subs/friends that all trade work and leads.
also helps make my own jobs go smoother ... guys don't mind going the extra mile for someone that helped them feed their own kids a month or so ago.
helps when everyone is top notch in their trade ... and presentable to the general public.
my HVAC guy might end up helping my barn reno customer restore an antique tractor ... how's that for "full service remodeling"!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I heard about, but have never seen the flexible cove you mention. do you know about anything that could work in this instance? I have to make make up better than 2" in a 6' run. That is, with a small crown (2 1/2") it would be tight against the ceiling at one end, and there would be space slightly more than 2" between the top of the crown and the ceiling on the other end.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I saw the flexible moulding used in a house where I did the low-voltage wiring and it looked great. When I see the expeditor and can get his attention, I'll ask where it came from.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Is there any chance, that instead of a straight run of cabinets, you could break them up. Maybe step a middle section out a few inches, like a breakfront. This will change the visual impact. A straight piece of crown molding will certainly show the change in ceiling height but stepping in and out a bit, may help to mask the difference. It can also add some "architectural" interest.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
FWIW, we have 42" uppers in a kitchen w/ ~8'3" ceilings. Original installer didn't do any work on the ceiling and it's wavy like crazy. Had installed crown crooked on top of cabs. I decided I couldn't live with it.
Had a drywall guy coming to do misc patches, etc- I reinstalled the crown level and he floated out the height difference with mud. My worst was 1" vertical across the width of a 27" cabinet. I was impressed.
That wouldn't "fix" the ceiling, but it'd be a way to take care of the problem w/o much additional investment.
Hi nikkiwood ,
I have had to deal with this very same challenge several times in the last 30 years or so myself . You have been given much great info , none of which will change the ceiling for the most part .
Taking what you have and making it look the best you can is all you can do . We can not promise perfection in a situation like this .
Making a soffit tapered to fit the problem may look the best , but I hear you when you say that will eat in to the available cabinet storage space .
When you designed the cabinets did you know about the problem ?
What I have done and would recommend you consider is make the top rail say 5" more or less , use a flat crown that is maybe 3 1/2"+ or - Hang the cabinets level to the bubble or what looks best . Taper the top of the flat crown to match the ceiling while maintaining a constant reveal between the top of the cabinet doors and the bottom of the crown board .
When it is all done any of us will certainly be able to notice the runout , but the average guest may not even notice it at all .
good luck dusty
The solution is probably going to be a variation of what you're suggesting.I made up some simple story boards and tacked them to the wall, with a crown running across the top. That will help them see exactly how sever the problem is. But instead of leaving a space above the crown (which in some spots will be 2"), I think it might make sense to cut a tapered piece that would run between the ceiling and the top of the face frame (behind the crown). That way it could be painted white, and would not stand out quite as much as a black space. The cabinets will be maple with a natural finish.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Draw her a picture of the unsightly reveal and asker to consider fixing the ceiling again.
Then after this one additional shot, write up a detailed release adn make her sign it. She will not be happy with teh result SHE IS DEMANDING and we humans have a nasty tendance to make our stupidity someone else's problem. With a detailed release she will be hard pressed to complain or press teh issue in court.
One role of being a professional is to be a consultant. I would take a firm position on doing it the right way - she'll love you for it in the end.