I’ve searched through the archives . . . but now I am more confused!
I want to replace my kitchen cabinets. I want basic cabinets that will withstand the use/abuse of a family with 2 children. For cabinets alone (not including installation, countertops, or knobs/pulls) I’d like to spend about $3-$4,500.
I have considered Mill’s Pride cabinets (Alexis: Sienna Hickory), Merillat (Merillat Classics), and Medallion (Silverline).
This forum has steered me away from Mills Pride and Merillat. The local dealer of Medallion is only interested in complete kitchen remodels, not my “small potatoes” cabinet purchase. I contacted one custom shop, but they also were interested in larger jobs (I am only talking about 8 base cabinets and 8 wall cabinets – all standard sizes).
So, my question is, with a $3-4,500 budget for cabinets and a preference for generic without a lot of bells and whistles, are there other manufacturers I should investigate?
Thanks – Jason
Replies
You can consider CabParts for the carcases and drawerfronts, and they can include all hardware such as slides, hinges, etc.
RTA and made of melamine-coated 3/4" particleboard, they are very sturdy and anyone can do the assembly with basic tools. Everything comes to you via UPS in flat packs, easy to get into the workspace. We like to build the cab boxes right in the kitchens or baths where they will go.
For the fronts, you can go to a doormaker such as Scherr's, Walzcraft, or Keystone Wood Specialties.
CabParts has a downloadable priced catalog. The fronts-makers don't, but to give you an idea of price, we just got a quote for about 32 sf of fronts (doors and drawerfronts) in factory finished knotty pine (it's expensive) and the price was about $575, delivered.
Your fronts sound like a quantity less than 75 sf.
Edit: If you search through the "Construction Techniques" folder, you'll see my photo album and how-to showing step-by-step of RTA cabinet assembly for a kitchen.
Edited 2/20/2007 12:54 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Medallion sells a line called Schuler at some Lowes stores. They are a better quality cabinet, better than Silverline. If money is tight, you have the time, and you a capable, I'd definately consider RTA cabinets.
it sounds like you're going to have a hard time getting suppliers to give you what you want. Kitchen remodelers make their living like car salesmen, they size you up before they guess how much mark-up you are willing to stand for. then they make a good percentage of their commission selling you the options and whatever extra's they can pile on.
most people just want the soup to nuts bottom line. kitchen outfits like it that way because most folks have no idea what a breakdown of costs looks like. it makes it easy to calculate and get their profits
when you come along only wanting a line item most outfits (especially custom shops)are going to shrug you off.
you'll do better at a lumber yard that has a dedicated cabinet sales staff
Shiloh Cabinetry!
I posted a question about these cabinets the other day but didn't get a response. I do know they are made with solid wood...NO particle board. I had semi-custom quoted for a 12 X 18 kitchen at $11K. I would bet their stock cabinets might fall into your price range.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will look into these as well as CabParts and the Medallion brand at Lowes. I'd welcome any more suggestions - Jason
Jason,
Don't know where you are in MD, if in the Ches Bay vicinity (Eastern Shore / western down to Annapolis or so) it might be worth you while to check out Kemper Cabinets sold in DE by Shone's Lumber. They run a sale twice a year (March & September) on Kemper at 40% off. This sale may be manufacturer sponsored - google Kemper.
Kemper comes in 3 grades - cheapest you won't like; mid grade you will probably be happy; top grade = nicer door/drawer hardware, different woods.
It is worth a call. Three branches - Stanton, Middletown and Georgetown, DE.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks - I will look into Kemper Cabinets and Kitchenvisions. I am just outside Baltimore, so a drive to DE or York is not bad.
I am going to talk to someone about Aristokraft cabinets this weekend. They didn't seem to have a problem with helping with design and then only supplying cabinets.
Thanks for the advice so far - Jason
Edited 2/20/2007 6:50 pm ET by JasonG
I just realized you are in Maryland. Look up Kitchenvision in York, PA. I think the website is http://www.kitchenvisioninc.com
This is who quoted me the Shiloh Cabinets. The owners name is Kris Kristoff. He is all about service.
Most cabinetmakers advertising solid wood mean plywood for the case parts....plywood=solid wood in their minds (not mine). I would take a good quality particlecore cabinet over a plywood one any day.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I am aware of that...and I believe that is the industry accepted definition of solid wood. What is considered a good particle board? What is the veneer made of? I am curious to hear from someone in the field. I have little experience in "engineered" wood.
Yes.it is an industry-accepted term....and it's hokey, designed to con consumers into thinking they are buying 'solid wood' as against 'engineered wood' which is implied to be somehow lesser. I don't think it should be allowed. Plywood is an engineered wood. Engineered wood is preferable to real honest 100% solid wood for cabinet components in most circumstances.....cabinets now, not furniture.
If you are going to use an engineered wood, then the choice of most cabinetmakers in Canada and Europe by far is veneered particle-core or veneered MDF. Traditional plywood still has users in the U.S, and parts of Canada that are very conservative. Virtually anyone who is making frameless cabinets eventually moves away from traditional plywood....the material is too inconsistent in thickness and flatness for that kind of cabinetmaking, although some of the face-frame people still use it. The good stuff ( particle-core and MDF) is made with industrial grade particle-board and MDF which is often very different from what is sold in home centres.
The solid wood veneer on particle-core and MDF is the same as the face veneers on traditional veneer-core ply, but usually looks better....no open joints because the core is stable. And less sand-through because the material is flat and consistent in thickness. The sheets are less expensive than veneer-core ply, and I scrap a lot less. Ply has it's uses, but few and far between. There are a number of new combination core products on the market, and they may combine the best of both worlds.
Obviously, everything I've said is my opinion only.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Hi Adrian ,
Yup , here in the states solid wood may mean plywood as opposed to boards you are correct .
I understand your thinking for frameless cabinets the pb and other composite panels are more flat and consistent in dimension to a point , but,,,,, there is no way mdf or pb should be considered as the same as plywood as far as strength and structural integrity goes .
Those products work against them selves from their own weight and the deflection and sagging of longish spans is hideous . The holding power for fasteners is poor at best . Consequently most cabinets built of these materials are made in modular units or otherwise very short runs of less then 48" in most cases , lets face it without a back these type of boxes have little strength .
With plywood type construction I can build boxes 8 or 10 feet wide and do pull ups from them , yes with face frames . I would challenge the same on frameless with or without pb construction .
All of the finer grades of veneer panels we use do have an mdf type ply under the skins only that give the smooth , void free beauty of the pb / mdf without the added weight factor .
regards dusty
Hi Dusty;
Okay, so first, you're using a hybrid panel which I did say in my post may be the best of both worlds....there are a few around now, and they're definitely better than traditional ply.
As far as strength of pb and MDF compared to ply, yes, ply is stronger, but I factor that into all my design and engineering, and my cabinets are rock-solid. Yes, a certain amount of strength comes from the back, but I would never build a cabinet without one anyway, although some do. My cabinets are a lot more solid than some of the majors who rely on the face frame, and go to 1/2" or 3/8 cabinet components. I've been in a lot of plants, from one and two person shops to companies with over 2000 people on the floor, and I've seen cabinets built in a lot of different ways as I'm sure you have. I stand behind what I build.
I prefer in almost all cases to build them in smaller modules......I would have to have a very compelling reason to build an 8' section. I build with face-frames if the client prefers....my cabinet box is basically identical to my framless box.....but I defiinitely believe there are a lot of advantages to frameless. I've also seen several hard-core plywood guys convert 100% to pb, melamine etc., after giving it a shot.
Anyway, as I siad, the hybrid panels are probably the wave of the future, and once the bio-boards/agri-boards get better developed, we'll both be learning how to use those.
Adrian
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
As a guy who used to work in production shops (10 yrs ago) and still does a kitchen a year on my own, this is an interesting thread..... I'm no longer up to date on the methods or materials. I do only face frame stuff, could never realistically offer a competive price for frameless without outsourcing etc. I still screw together 3/4 inch ply, even use 3/4 inch backs (I know...) All of my exposed ends get the solid door look, so the look of the veneer is not critical. I've always felt that the use of particle board core or mdf core is an issue with us old time "screw together" guys. I've never found a sheet good that holds screws as well as ply. Is this still true or am I just stuck in the past ? Different screws perhaps? Also, is the old song about water being less of an issue with ply still valid?
And, why would you not build an 8' base cabinet instead of tying together 3 or 4 smaller units? Take the doors and drawers out and its not that heavy. I'm willing to change ( just bought my first pocket hole jig), but are the new materials and methods appropriate to the mass manufacturers and the little guys or just to them?
thanks
Hi frost ,
I'm basically a FF guy also , but I've done my share of frameless wood and laminate . I must admit with the Euro style once the box is assembled there is little or no sanding like with FF boxes .
We are from the same school on long runs of boxes , even though I run a custom production shop ease of installation and time are important factors to me . Also imo fewer boxes means fewer seams and can enhance a custom look .My guess is , one of the reasons Adrian makes such small widths is with the mdf / pb type of panels they tend to get very heavy very fast.
I think the newer materials are fine for all , Melamine type of panels probably are the tough ones for small shops with non scoring saws to get good results with.
regards dusty
i like to use hardwood plywood for making cabinets
mdf is flat, but it is too heavy for me to use comfortably working by myself and i dont like the way it cuts, too much fine dust in the air, also it is supseptable to water damage, i have see cabinet doors made from mdf that were installed under the kitchen sink and even though it had several coats of oil base paint, it had obvious swelling in a few places about the size of a dime from water dripping down the front of the door
try a ocal cab maker. i bet you get a beter quality cab for about the same pice as a large one
View Image "We fight not to enslave ,but to set free"
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Not in my little corner of the world, Sancho. The customers that frustrate me the most have a Home Depot or Lowes layout and then start describing all the changes that they would like......................but at the HD or Lowes price. If I'm a little bored that day, I'll try to explain the differences between custom work and production work. - lol
I had one lady who couldn't (wouldn't?) understand that Lowes had given her a layout, but not a design. She got a little irate when I offered to design her cabs (for a fee). Unlike her layout, my design would include complete shop drawings, hardware specs, finish specs, etc.
the thing I like best...... is when someone brings me a perspective drawing from Home Depot and asks for a price. Depot doesn't give you the layout or the cab list, they only give the perspective which isn't even close to scaleable. then I have to Estimate the dimensions of the kitchen from a crappy perspective drawing and produce my own layout. I love those customers.....
I've quit doing any kind of drawing - including even a rough sketch on a piece of scrap plywood unless they're willing to pay a design fee. I got burned a couple of times last year when I spent quite a bit of time talking to some customers and making drawings which they shopped around.
Now, I charge for design work and then offer to bid on the construction and installation. Once they've paid for the design, it's theirs to shop around if they want. - lol
I wish I couls bring myself to that. My degree is in design. LAndscape Architecture actually, but thats besides the point. I love doing the design work, but I also love doing the installations. When a customer like that shows up, I jsut have to bite my lip, and figure it out. It's like brain exercise.
I enjoy the design work too, but can't afford to invest a lot of time without some monetary return. Separating the "tire-kickers" from the serious customers can be a real problem, and I'm finding that charging a design fee is a great way to do that.
The mortgage company sorta insists on getting their money each and every month. - lol
What do you charge for the design fee?
Jason,
Where are you in MD? What sizes are you seeking? If you are anywhere near Baltimore I might be able to steer you to a small local place that can help you.
Jim
Or you could do what I have done.
After getting a quote of $5500.00 for cabinets alone (the least expensive also btw) not including counters, drawer slides, pulls, or hinges, I decided to nut up and build my own. Including buying a better router and a cabinet door shaper set made for making raised panel doors, my material costs were right at $1200.00 for Red Oak. I used 3/4"maple ply for the sides that don't show (gives me Maple insides)and oak ply for the sides that do show and all the shelves.
This also gave me a much more flexible layout for my cabinets. I was able to make the counters deeper and the wall cabinets taller than standard.
The best part is I get the satisfaction of telling people who see my kitchen that "I" built these cabinets. From scratch.
Although I have a workshop and enjoy making furniture, I am very slow at it. Having to pump out 15-20 cabinets in a timeframe that my wife would approve of would take all the fun out of it for me.
Jason
I thought the same thing, but, once I got into it I was surprised how fast they went. The boxes themselves, are way simple as you can probably guess. The fronts are not much more difficult. The time consuming part is making the raised panel doors. Slab doors would be a breeze to make in quantity.Do everything you do to the very best of your ability, or don't bother doing it at all.
Hi Jason,
I am a small cabinet maker in the northern Balto. Co. area. In that you are looking mostly at production type cabinets you probably could not afford me to build your cabinets for you although I may be of some use in the layout, engineering and installation of whatever you choose. Let me know. Thanks.
I got that impression from the local cabinet shop that we contacted. I am really just looking for boxes with doors and drawers. He is a small cabinet shop because it is fun for him and he can make a profit. My project would not offer him either.
Jason
Edited 2/20/2007 7:17 pm ET by JasonG
Merrilat is not the greates thing inthe world, but for your budget - they are one of the most widely sold cabinets.
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RTA (ready to assemble) cabinets is an alternative for someone who wants to save a little money on kitchen cabinets, you order the cabinets you want and they come unassembled in boxes, you put them together and install them, i have not ordered from them but the cabinets seem to be well made and ecconomical
http://www.rtacabi.net/index.html
You need to visit Ikea, great quality cabinets, very current design, very affordable. Check-out their website at http://www.ikea.com.