Kitchen Electric: Receptacle Placement
I just want to take this time to bring up one of my pet issues: code compliance vs. good design. I even have a pair of pictures to help me make my points.
The setting is a small apartment, with a ‘galley’ kitchen. Imagine this layout:
Space x stove x sink x WH
This was the original layout. Note that there was not even space for a fridge; the area I designated “space” in the above layout is only 12″ wide. There was, in this entire kitchen, ONE place to plug something in; perhaps a radio? Originally built 1940.
At some point, there was a need felt to ad a fridge. This was done by cutting a pocket into a closet, and using an extension cord to reach the one plug in the kitchen. Now the layout is like this:
Space x stove x sink x WH
Fridge
Not too bad, but there is still that issue of there just being one plug. Well, a remodel addressed that issue. I suppose that now I need to dredge up two pictures:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r138/renosteinke/Kitdemo.jpg
In this ‘before’ picture, you can see the wall being removed, to open up the kitchen to the main room. That toolbox is actually in use as a microwave table and additional kitchen storage.
Looking at the picture itself, you can see the Harvest Gold fridge, sitting in its’ pocket. In the ‘space’ a counter-height table has been constructed, making a useable surface next to the stove. The “sink” area is actually a sink, with (maybe) a 14″ counter surface – just enough for the dish rack. Finally, the right end of the counter – about 18″ wide – is the top of the water heater cabinet.
In the remodel, the pocket was eliminated, and more space taken from the closet. (The additional space had been a pretty much useless ‘dead’ corner in any event) Now the layout is:
Fridge x table x stove x sink x WH
Here’s the second Pic (table removed for work, will be returned):
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r138/renosteinke/Kitafter.jpg
Now that you have the ‘back story,’ I’d like to discuss the use of this kitchen.
A strict reading of the NEC would require two circuits to serve the counters – but, by the NEC’s own definition, this kitchen has NO counters! None of the ‘work surfaces’ are the two foot width that requires a receptacle. The shelf above, and the top of the fridge, are essential in this tight kitchen – but there is no requirement for receptacles in those locations either.
Well, it’s time to forget about ‘code minimums.’ You will note that every work surface – including the top of the water heater cabinet, out of sight to the right – has a receptacle. Any place you might want to plug in a toaster, you have a receptacle. And, as those annoyingly ugly blue stickers atest, everything is GFCI protected. There is also another receptacle behind the fridge.
These pictures also bring up another vexing issue: “Square Foot” pricing. Sometimes folks ask ‘what’s your price per square foot?” That is a ridiculous question; this project shows why:
As small as that kitchen is, it requires as much work from the electrician as a kitchen five times as large. Would you wire it for 1/5th the price?
Replies
the county inspector told me, if you have an appliance with a 1 foot cord. it has to be able to plug in anywhere without moving the appliance. so if its a ten inch counter and you put a can opener there on the counter, it needs to plug in somewhere without moving, without a extention cord.
also the refrigerator, dishwasher, and microwave have their own seperate circuit except if its a counter top microwave.
Appears you have it covered.
I perhaps would have moved the outlet from left of stove to over the top of the fridge - but it works where it is and allows the use of a double gang box to house the fan switch.
Outlets over shelf are not required but could be handy for perhaps a small microwave or a clock.
Shelf does not equal counter - 'round here at least.
>>....ugly blue tags...<< they peel right off after the inspector leaves - I'm partial to the white or clear ones which blend in a little better.
Is that a clamp-on ammeter hanging on the cabinet door?
>>Sometimes folks ask 'what's your price per square foot?" That is a ridiculous question;<<
Which is why I tell them, "I don't have one. I can work out a number for you and then divide by the number of square feet - that will be my square foot price for your project." They usually get the idea.......
As for electrician pricing - many will charge by the outlet or box, or just T&M.
Jim
I like the lighting system in the first picture.
You should have kept it and used it for lighting under the shelf and uppers.
BTW. It is hard to tell. But if there is 6-8" (or more) between the fridge and stove I would get a small shelf in there.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Edited 9/26/2009 2:11 pm by BillHartmann
You've all raised some good points. Let me address them:
Brownbagg - you've made mer re-examint the NEC requirements. The NEC starts applying the receptacle requirements (210.52-C-1) to wall spaces 12" or wider, so I was in error when I said the spaces sisn't require receptacles. Looks like 'good design' saved me from a possible violation there!
The NEC goes on to say that 'no point along the wall line will be more than 24" from a receptacle." That is, you can place them as much as 4ft. apart. Again, there's nothing wrong with having more. As for cord lengths, I believe the standard length for kitchen appliances is 18" long. Naturally, it's quite possible that local requirements will differ.
Still, compare this counter with the receptacle placement at either your local showroom - OR any "Kitchen" design ad, brochure, magazine (even FHB!). The lack of receptacles has been a pet peeve of mine.
NEC would only require a dedicated circuit for the microwave were it part of an over-range hood assembly. Local requirements, applying that to any built-in micro, are very possible. Having the major appliances on their own circuits is certainly a good design, and one which I heartily endorse - but not a requirement.
Also, regarding the microwave .... look back to that first picture. The same arrangement will be used. With the wall removed, the microwave can be turned to face into the kitchen, and a receptacle for ot placed there. As luck would have it, that is a different circuit. I suppose that brings me -technically, anyways- in compliance with the 'two circuit' rule, though I would like to split things up a bit better.
JTC1 - I agree that the shelf absolutely is not required to have any receptacles at all. Yet, considering the cramped quarters of this kitchen, I considered it quite reasonable for someone to keep small appliances (toaster, crock pot, etc) up there, and placed the receptacles for their convenience.
The receptacle to the side of the stove was placed there (in part) because of the very nerrow table that will go there, as well as the placement of studs within the wall. In general, I wanted to avoid having cords go over the burners.
On the cabinet you see Ideal's version of a bottle opener, skillfully made to LOOK like an amp-clamp! Good eye!
Bill - The lighting you saw - the 'fish net Christmas lights," were removed for the remodel, and will be re-strung. The tenant liked the effect they had in lighting the main room. Using them on the kitchen wall is certainly an idea.
There will be a small table placed between the fridge and the stove. This table exists, it just wasn't in place when I took the picture. That narrow space, it turns out, is ideal for storing baking sheets and such. Think in terms of the skinny units often found next to the laundry machines.
Everyone .... It's hard to make sweet lemonade from sour lemons. I am trying to sell this guy on re-arranging the entire kitchen; it's a tough sell. The kitchen sink is rusted through (I soldered a patch in place), and replacing that non-standard sink will require a remake of the counter, etc. I believe that this kitchen can easily become a much more efficient, more comfortable kitchen; too bad I'm talking to the owner - and not his wife!
Reno,
I have one word for you. One word. Are you listening?
Plugmold.
Jim x 3
Jim: I put in Plug Mold. Really like it w/ the outlets every 6 inches. Only one problem. Amperage limited. Cannot run toaster oven & electric coffee maker on same ckt w/o popping ckt brkr. Sure wish they came w/ two ckts & common neutral w/ alternating outlets on same ckt.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Plugmold has some good things to be said for it; if I had a run of useable counter, I would have probably used it. For this kitchen, the receptacles were separated by things (sink, range) that I really didnt't want cords running across.
You've hit on the problem with plugmold: multiple circuits. Or, more correctly, combining multiple circuits with GFCI protection. While there is plugmold that has two circuits in it, the share a neutral- which complicates adding GFCI protection greatly. (You're stuck running wires straight from the panel to the plugmold, and having to go to the panel to reset the GFCI).
Gonna look that multiple ckt Plugmold up. Thanks.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
a 4" box with 2 duplexes (one circuit each) still seem to fill up pretty fast on your average kitchen counter. I put one at each location on the counter top and I still have problems finding a place to plug things in sometimes. The spot between the sink and stove has double quads and I usually have one receptacle empty.
Went on line & found alternating ckt Plugmold! Gonna look into re-configuring our kitchen. We keep blowing ckt brkrs, & have to run to mechanical room to reset - cannot be any worse than that. Have never popped the GFCI, which is also in panel in mechanical room.Fortunately, I can easily get at the two ckts serving the counter top & merge them into one common neutral system - may have to move things around a bit in panel so the two breakers are adjacent for safety. Can also put in J box that meets code for accessibility, etc.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
How small? How can they do anything in there?No vent hood over a gas stove? The shelf over the sink must kill the light from the wall.I can understand how the code would not apply to the counters, but you need at least 1 more than you think.I just finished a reno of a 4 apartment into condos. We added lots of plugs to the kitchen, I begged for more in the living rooms as there were only 2. No HO insisted we put phone and cat 5 into every room. I explained all that is wireless now. didn't listen.When I built in 97 I put phone and coax in every room. never hooked up 1. But sorry I did not add a couple plugs in a hallway and one wall not big enough for code but, I sure could use one now!!
If I remember correctly. The COUNTER TOP, is suppose to have 2 difference circuits. So they refrigerator receptacle, which can be on the SA circuits, and other wall receptacles, which must be on a SA circuit, don't count.Of course that rule assumes that you have countertops <G>..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
If I remember correctly. The COUNTER TOP, is suppose to have 2 difference circuits. So they refrigerator receptacle, which can be on the SA circuits, and other wall receptacles, which must be on a SA circuit, don't count.
Actually the whole kitchen, and including the DR, pantry, nook, and other similar areas can share the minimum two small appliance receptacle circuits. This also includes the refer.
This of course is very poor wiring practice, but it IS the code minimum.
Yes, you need a minimum of 2 SA circuits for the AREA.My point was, if I remember correctly, is that you need two DIFFERENT circuits for the countertop. Now those 2 can also be shared with the other SA circuit locations. But you can't have just one circuit on the counter top and the 2nd serving the other areas..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The code makes no distinction as to how the two SA circuits are laid out. You could literally have one receptacle on one circuit and everything else on the other circuit.
Again, a very poor design, but the exact wording of the code would allow it.
Gfretwell ... nice isea!
It looks like I've made my point .... good design almost always meets code, but 'code minimum' is often debatable, and never good design!
No, the code clearly calls out the need for both SA circuits to supply the countertop.But it does not breakdown how many receptacles on each.From the 2005 NEC.210.52(B)(3)" Kitchen Receptacle Requirements Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen. ".
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Sorry Bill. You are correct.
I forgot about that.
Edited 9/27/2009 3:48 pm ET by SpeedyPetey
I was told to put the refrigerator on its own circuit without a ground fault so if something else would pop the breaker it would not spoil the food.
That's what most of us do. Code does not require it though.
I could not remember the cord length, its been five year since the inspection, all I remember was " Boy, if I set a can opener anywhere on this counter, I better be able to plug in or you fail"
Was this the same inspector who had some goofy idea about not allowing 2 ground rods? Or leaving the ground rods exposed by 6"? Or something along that line?
Maybe he is no longer employed as an inspector.......
Goofiest thing I ever heard from a building inspector was on a combined framing /mechanical inspection for a HfH house I was leading.
House framed, roof on, windows and doors in, siding on, electrical, gas and mechanicals all in place. Sort of a big bang inspection before we were permitted to insulate.
Inspection was going just fine until on the second floor, he looked up at the underside of the roof deck ...... he started squinting and moving around to look closer ...... I thought he was checking to be sure we had not cheated on plywood clips or looking at OSB grade stamps or perhaps hurricane clips at the truss tails.....truss roof on 24" centers, 5/8" OSB roof deck, 30 lb felt, 3 tab shingles, 4 x 1-1/4" nails per shingle.
He keeps doing this for a bit and I finally asked what he was looking at.
He told me with a completely straight face that we would have to remove the shingles and renail them because...................
we had used too long of roofing nails ---- this was evidenced by the fact that the nails all penetrated the roof decking ---- he further explained that the nails would eventually rust, disintegrate and cause the roof to leak.
Obviously, I begged to differ.
He called his supervisor - "Who would settle this" on a walkie-talkie type radio.
Needless to say, his supervisor thought the roofing installation was just fine and told him to pass the job and "return to base".
The next inspector who came out to inspect the insulation installation asked, in a very serious voice, "You guys renail those shingles yet?"
We told him we hadn't got around to it --- he said, "well you know they are going to rust and make your roof leak" --- then broke out laughing.
Turned out the "too-long-roofing-nails" radio conversation had been heard via their open channel radios by every inspector in the City -- the other inspectors were not too kind to ours when they "returned to base".
Our "too-long-roofing-nail" inspector had left the inspection department after several more equally stupid incidents.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 9/26/2009 9:11 pm ET by JTC1
yep, same one. He also would not left me use one of those siemen main panels that can convert to a sub panel by removing the bar. Even with the paper work that says you can. I been to his boss so many times, I had foorprints on his head.
So, I would assume this particular inspector is politically connected somehow.
Relative of some local elected official maybe?
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
There are lots of things you can do with a 6-8" space.
I ended up with about 8" of strange shaped space and I made this wrap rack that pulls out on 2 sets of slides (2 stages).
In a tight kitchen you have to think like a boat builder. Don't waste a cubic inch.http://gfretwell.com/ftp/wraprack.jpg
Edited 9/27/2009 12:25 am ET by gfretwell