I am about to renovate a 25 year old kitchen (approx 15′ x 15′). The existing floor is large 12″x12″ ceramic tiles (with thinset) on a 3/4″ ply substrate which is screwed and glued to the 1/2″ underlayment. This made for a very solid crack-free tile floor but the owner (wife) now wants a hardwood floor installed in the new kitchen. Any suggestions for removing the old tiles and subflooring. Need to get down to 1/2″ (7/16″ CDX?) for the new hardwood floor, so should I plan on cutting down to the floor joists? Basement below is unfinished.
Jon
Replies
Take it down to the joists. You will never get the 2 layers of plywood apart. Use 3/4" plywood subfloor for the hardwood. 1/2" is not adequate.
Thanks Woodroe, Rats, hoping you had a magic cure. But, cutting out the floor is not impossible with the right crew. A new 3/4" subfloor will require a slight but noticeable threshold. You suggest that for additional stability/stiffness I suppose?
Jon
The need for more than 1/2" under 3/4" hardwood is certainly arguable.
Ask the poster why 1/2" is inadequate.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
The Hardwood Fooring Institute does not recommend using less than a 5/8" plywood subfloor. Not less than 3/4" if the subfloor is OSB.
That's all well and fine.
And 100's of 1000's of homes have been built with 3/4 HW over 1/2 ply and have not experienced any problems because of it.
What does the Hardwood Flooring Institute have to say about that?[email protected]
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"What does the Hardwood Flooring Institute have to say about that?" I don't speak for them so I don't know. I'm not inclined to do more research into the reasons for their recomendations either. None of the installers we use will install over 1/2". I'm guessing one reason has to do with the nail holding power of the 1/2" material.
That's why we try to hit the joists with the nails![email protected]
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Eric, you can install floors however you want, but 10"-12" between nails is recommended and 8"-10" apart is preferred according to the standards of the industry. These standards are developed by the industry to eliminate problems, as well as to create a standard for a proper installation. If you ever have a homeowner complain about a squeaky floor, or one that shows signs of buckling in humid weather, and it is found to be installed in a manner not recommended what are you going to tell them? As the installer or contractor you would most likely be the one to warranty the floor, why would you take the risk of doing a substandard installation and it coming back to bite you later?There are a lot of guys who installed windows "the way they always have, (and I never had a problem)", and all of the sudden the houses are rotting away because of leaking problems. In our litigious society it is not wise to play fast and loose with installation proceedures for anything.
Thanks. In 30 years I've never had any problems with the floor I have done or with the floors my subs have done. Guess we'll just keep doing that way.[email protected]
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100's of thousands? i have yet to see one in all my years. Actually it would not pass the framing inspection here.
Well here in NY it would........or used to.
I was around for the boom in the early eighties. Everything got half inch. EVERYTHING.
This was not a one time shortcut, my imagination or a hallucenation. It's general practice.
Ok, tens of thousands...........thousands??[email protected]
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"And 100's of 1000's of homes have been built with 3/4 HW over 1/2 ply and have not experienced any problems because of it."
I'll go one better -- in my house, the entire second floor has no subfloor at all. Just 3/4" HW nailed right to the joists. (I've seen this in several other houses built in the '30s as well.) Worked OK so far, but I'd never do it.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I was going to say the same thing. I used to live in a neighborhood built during the depression, and we didn't have ANY subfloor. Long leaf SYP directly on the joists.No sheathing underneath the siding either.
>>> A new 3/4" subfloor will require a slight but noticeable threshold.
Please tell us why. Old floor is 1/2" +3/4" ply + ~1/4" tile = 1.5 inches
new floor with 3/4" ply + 3/4" HW strips = 1.5 "
=> same height
How about floating an engineered wood floor right over the tile?
Probably not a good idea, another layer of floor will probably lock the dishwasher into place. No way to service/remove it without peeling the floor up or taking the countertop off.
Also he may have to cut doors down that lead into the kitchen.
The slight threshold would be due to the fact I will be removing the existing tile and subflooring (as you say ~1.5"). But this is a renovation and the remainder of the existing house has 3/4" over 1/2" giving 1 1/4" (actually less due to a couple refinishings). New kitchen would be 3/4" over 3/4", thus a small 1/4"+ threshold.
ditto
I have to agree with the 3/4 subfloor. If you're goin down to the joists, why not go better instead of just o.k. For the extra expense and effort you get a stiffer floor, less likely to squeek, blah, blah, blah. Also more likely to even out ups and downs in the f.js.
My suggestion is like some on the forum: go down to the joists, rescrew 3/4" T&G sheathing on it. This way you will know for sure you have a solid subfloor.
My other suggestion is not to use hardwood floor in a kitchen. It is a fad at the moment. Over the 35 years I have been in construction; almost all my customers ripped the hardwood floor off after some time and re-installed other materials like linoleum or cork or tile.
My 85 year old house, which was the cookie cutter development design of its neighborhood 85 years ago, has a maple floor. So do at least a half dozen of my neighbors. We like it and want to match it as we just added on but it is narrower than todays norm of 2 1/2" and matching the color on something with this much age and who knows how many recoats is tough.
Hardwood flooring is readily available in 1-1/2" and 2-1/4" widths; they are the most common widths used. In fact they are the most common widths. An experienced flooring guy should be able to put a slight stain on the new floor to give it the aged color of the older wood floors.