Working toward our kitchen remodel…
We’re doing cabinet-top lights for our ambient lighting, five 24″ fluorescent fixtures, about 6″ from cabinet top to wall. Crown molding will be only 1″ above cabinet top. Am I correct in thinking that the fixtures should be held back toward the back of the cabinets?
Task lighting is primarily under-cabinet lights, which I was thinking I’d place toward the front of the cabinet underside – is this best, or should they also be held toward the back?
Local code (drawing from California Title 24 energy code, but perhaps inspired to go further) requires hard-wired fixtures pretty well everywhere in the kitchen. What’s the best way to tie these fixtures into the box in the wall? For the cabinet-top fixtures, I figured to use flex conduit from one to the next (but parallel wired), meaning just two boxes, one for each side of the kitchen; I’d also like to tie adjacent under-cabinet fixtures together the same way, on the one run where I could do that.
Replies
Just finished a kitchen in SoCal and the uplights you are talking about, we put at the front edge of the uppers so that we could better reflect light off the back wall. Under cabinet lights look better if their also at the front of the cabinet to reflect off splash and give balanced light for the area under the cabinet. If your in the SoCal area I would be happy to help.
Bing
I don't know anything about the left coast but can tell you there is likely code stipulated clearance requirements for lighting as you describe. Check NEC - not energy codes.
"I don't know anything about the left coast but can tell you there is likely code stipulated clearance requirements for lighting as you describe. "Between what and what?If you are talking about the valance lighting the only limition would be what is in the manufactures instructions..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I might be wrong but I though there was a NEC requirement where a ceiling mounted light could not be closer to the wall than x # of inches. Further, that the clearance for incandescent was larger than for fluorescents. Or at least that is what my electrician told me. I'm thinking it was 24" for incandescent and 12" for fluorescents, but again I'm kind of foggy on the whole thing. The discussion I was having with the guy actually was pertaining to closet ceiling lighting. Who knows, maybe he didn't know what he was talking about, or maybe he had another agenda like it would be easier for him to put up fluorescents (and have me pay 2x for the fixture) than for him to put up incandescent.<!----><!----><!---->
OTOH, where does under cabinet lighting fit into this whole thing? They are certainly closer than 12" to the wall?????? Maybe once we get the new NEC adopted, I'll see if my boss man will by me a NEC book.<!----><!---->
That's the problem with learning code via second hand info.... It could be just hearsay.
On the other hand, as a construction management type it seems like I'm supposed to know everyone else’s job. Just yesterday I had a framer asking me how to frame the hips on a trey ceiling with sloped sides. I tried to explain it to him but after about 15 minutes and him telling me that my way was too hard, I just told him: "It shows it clearly on the prints what the finished product is supposed to look like. You are the framer. Now do your job." :-)<!----><!---->
I suspect that you are thinking about fixture in a closet.http://www.codecheck.com/pg27_28electrical.htmlAnd the distance limitation is to the "storage space".Now there are a couple of other sections. Now what I am quoting here is the text from the code PLUS the handbook.If you do get a copy I sugest that you get the NEC handbook. It includes the code, plus a lot commentary includeing drawings. But it cost about $130 where the code book is $70."410.5 Luminaires (Fixtures) Near Combustible Material
Luminaires (fixtures) shall be constructed, installed, or equipped with shades or guards so
that combustible material is not subjected to temperatures in excess of 90░C (194░F).
Nearly every fire requires an initial heat source, an initial fuel source, and an action
that brings them together. The requirements of 410.5, 410.6, 410.7, and 410.8 regulate
only the placement of the heat source. It is important to remember that successful fire
prevention is most likely to come about if the initial heat source and initial fuel source
are treated with due care. Tests have shown that hot particles from broken incandescent
lamps can ignite combustibles below the lamps.
410.6 Luminaires (Fixtures) Over Combustible Material
Lampholders installed over highly combustible material shall be of the unswitched type.
Unless an individual switch is provided for each luminaire (fixture), lampholders shall be
located at least 2.5 m (8 ft) above the floor or shall be located or guarded so that the
lamps cannot be readily removed or damaged.
Section 410.6 refers to pendants and fixed lighting equipment installed above highly
combustible material. If the lamp cannot be located out of reach, the requirement can
be met by equipping the lamp with a suitable guard. Section 410.6 does not apply to
portable lamps."I don't know what HIGLY FLAMABLE is."410.8 Luminaires (Fixtures) in Clothes Closets
(A) Definition
Storage Space The volume bounded by the sides and back closet walls and planes
extending from the closet floor vertically to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) or to the highest
clothes-hanging rod and parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 600 mm (24 in.)
from the sides and back of the closet walls, respectively, and continuing vertically to the
closet ceiling parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 300 mm (12 in.) or the width
of the shelf, whichever is greater; for a closet that permits access to both sides of a
hanging rod, this space includes the volume below the highest rod extending 300 mm (12
in.) on either side of the rod on a plane horizontal to the floor extending the entire length
of the rod.
FPN: See Figure 410.8.
Figure 410.8 Closet Storage Space
The 24-in. rule is intended to cover the clothes-hanging space, even if no clothes-
hanging rod is installed. If a clothes-hanging rod is installed, the space extends from
the floor to the top of the highest rod. If no clothes-hanging rod is installed, the space
extends from the floor to a height of 6 ft.
In addition to the space in which clothing is hung from the closet pole or rod, this
requirement also establishes a 12-in.-wide shelf space to cover those installations
where shelving is not in place at the time of fixture installation. If shelving is installed
and the shelves are wider than 12 in., the greater width must be applied in establishing
this space.
The storage space for closets that permit access to both sides of the clothes-hanging
rod is based on a horizontal plane extending 12 in. from both sides of the rod, from the
rod down to the floor. This equates to the 24-in. space required for the closet rod where
there is only one direction of access.
(B) Luminaire (Fixture) Types Permitted Listed luminaires (fixtures) of the following
types shall be permitted to be installed in a closet:
(1) A surface-mounted or recessed incandescent luminaire (fixture) with a completely
enclosed lamp
(2) A surface-mounted or recessed fluorescent luminaire (fixture)
(C) Luminaire (Fixture) Types Not Permitted Incandescent luminaires (fixtures) with
open or partially enclosed lamps and pendant luminaires (fixtures) or lampholders shall
not be permitted.
See the commentary following 410.8(D)(3).
(D) Location Luminaires (fixtures) in clothes closets shall be permitted to be installed as
follows:
(1) Surface-mounted incandescent luminaires (fixtures) installed on the wall above
the door or on the ceiling, provided there is a minimum clearance of 300 mm (12
in.) between the luminaire (fixture) and the nearest point of a storage space
(2) Surface-mounted fluorescent luminaires (fixtures) installed on the wall above the
door or on the ceiling, provided there is a minimum clearance of 150 mm (6 in.)
between the luminaire (fixture) and the nearest point of a storage space
(3) Recessed incandescent luminaires (fixtures) with a completely enclosed lamp
installed in the wall or the ceiling, provided there is a minimum clearance of 150
mm (6 in.) between the luminaire (fixture) and the nearest point of a storage space
The requirement in 410.8(D)(3) results from tests that have shown that a hot filament
falling from a broken incandescent lamp can ignite combustible material below the
luminaire in which the lamp is installed.
(4) Recessed fluorescent luminaires (fixtures) installed in the wall or the ceiling,
provided there is a minimum clearance of 150 mm (6 in.) between the luminaire
(fixture) and the nearest point of a storage space
Note that the clearance measurement for each requirement in 410.8(D) is to the
luminaire and not to the lamp itself.
It is not mandatory to install a luminaire in a clothes closet; if one is installed,
however, the conditions for installation are as required by 410.8(D).
The requirements of 410.8(D) apply to incandescent and fluorescent lighting in clothes
closets of various kinds of occupancies. The requirement is intended to prevent hot
lamps or parts of broken lamps from coming in contact with boxes, cartons, blankets,
and the like, stored on shelves and with clothing hung in closets.
410.9 Space for Cove Lighting
Coves shall have adequate space and shall be located so that lamps and equipment can be
properly installed and maintained.
Adequate space is necessary for easy access for relamping luminaires or replacing
lampholders, ballasts, and so on; adequate space also improves ventilation.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Is that stuff you quoted from a Codecheck type book? When I googled for "NEC Handbook" I found this: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=nec%20handbook&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-1_blended_13289646_2&results-process=default
If that is what you are refering to, do you think "The handbook" is easier to read and understand than the NEC regular book? If that's what you quoted from it looked kind of long winded...
10 years ago or so I had a CodeCheck book for building, but ended up throwing it out because I hated the way it had all these different exceptions for different codes - IRC, BOCA, CABO, etc. and the summary format seemed to leave out some important details. I'm only concerned with whatever code is in force in MY state. I think we are on the NEC 2006 right now. Maybe a Codecheck book would be good for NEC since the NEC is quite widely accepted? Or does it cover stuff besides NEC? Or do you mean the kind of books shown in my link to amazon?
Anyway, it sounds like the electrician was lying to me, or maybe he just didn't know what he was talking about. It would be cool if next time I could "pull the book out" on him. :-)
I think that it is the samething.I "found" a copy on the internet and downloaded. The site seems to be gone.The NEC is updated every 3 years. The current one is 2005.And that is what you use.http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/BCC/engineering_bcc_electrical_codes_2005.aspBased on that it I am guessing that you will adopt the 2008 NEC in about a year.But looking at the amendments there are only two modifiications.Here is an example showing what you get in just the code book. And the below it is what is also added by the handbook.CODE:
"(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas No parts of cord-connected luminaires (fixtures), chain-
, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaires (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceilingsuspended
(paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft)
horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall
threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or
shower stall. Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone shall be listed for damp
locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray."This is the handbook comentary."A revision of 410.4(D) clarifies that securely fastened luminaires installed in or on the
ceiling or wall are permitted to be located in the bathtub or shower area. Where they
are subject to shower spray, the luminaires must be listed for a wet location.
Luminaires installed in the tub or shower zone and not subject to shower spray are
required to be listed for use in a damp location. GFCI protection is required only where
specified in the installation instructions for the luminaire.
The intent of 410.4(D) is to keep cord-connected, chain-hanging, or pendant luminaires
and suspended fans out of the reach of an individual standing on a bathtub rim. The list
of prohibited items recognizes that the same risk of electric shock is present for each
one.
Exhibit 410.1 illustrates the restricted zone in which the specified luminaires, lighting
track, and paddle fans are prohibited. This requirement applies to hydromassage
bathtubs, as defined in 680.2, as well as other bathtub types and shower areas. See
680.43 for installation requirements for spas and hot tubs (as defined in 680.2) installed
indoors."And attached is the drawing that goes with it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 4/21/2007 8:01 pm by BillHartmann
NEC is only updated every 3 years? That's news to me...
Sounds like the handbook might be what I want... As long as I'm asking the boss, I might as well ask for the good stuff... :-) And it looks like I can just download the amendments since they are next to nuttin'.
Matt,
I don't know of any NEC stipulations about clearances from a wall or ceiling due to heat problems. The fixture manufacturors might list a caveat about something like this, but offhand I can't remember ever seeing one about a residential-grade fixture......
As Bill has said , the prominent mention in the NEC of clearances to prevent fires is in clothing closets. Anything else, other than the general admonition to provide a safe installation and to install all listed products in a manner prescribed by the manufacturors, is news to me.
Ed
houghton,
I just happened to read last night in a FHB kitchen-edition special that they recommend putting the undercabinet fixtures close to the front of the cabinet..........though I've always put them far back to the wall as they will go. The problem with the front application in my mind is that then the wiring is exposed. If the fixtures are against the back of the cabinet then the wiring (romex is what I usually use here in Massachusetts) is easy to hide behind the fixtures themselves.
Some low-volt strips could be interconnected with flexible stranded wire which you might be able to easily hide behind the front lower lip of the cabs. But MC or Rx, rather difficult.
I stub a wire out of the wall for each fixture, even if they are all on one switch, by running a separate piece of cable for each light from the switch box. If necessary I use a larger box, 4-sq deep or 4-11/16 with a mud ring, to accomodate all the wires.
Ed
Edited 4/27/2007 12:16 am ET by edlee
My only suggestion is that the under cabinet lighting is pulled forward.
Wall cabs are typically 12" deep. Bases, 24". That puts the task lighting dead center on the counter top.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements