Hello all,
Would anyone out there be willing to give some advice to a first time kitchen remodeler. I am an apprentice carpenter and am about to buy my first house and gut the kitchen…Gulp. I should point out that since I’ll be doing all the labor and sourcing all the materials that we hope we will be able to get a sweet kitchen without the sweet kitchen price. We are a pretty low key, low maintenance household of three and are going for a relaxed, sort of country rustic feel for our kitchen. We have picked out maple cabinets with a cherry finish in a shaker style, butcher block countertops, and stainless appliances. We are considering soapstone backsplash(spendy?) and we have purchased an apron front farm sink. Any suggestions on lighting, wiring, or plumbing that I should consider before planning the final details. Anyone do this sort of style kitchen and have backsplash ideas that they like? Any comments or suggestions welcomed and appreciated. Thanks!!
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Dont get the smooth stainless, it shows every finger print. I would also stay away from the black cook top. cant keep clean. they make a rough stainless that hides fingerprint.
Not sure exactly what you're looking for as far as help. First of all I love your choice of cabinets.
You may want to consider under cabinet lighting and make sure you have a duplex receptacle every four feet of counter run. This stuf is easily run before its cabinet time but not so much after.
As far as plumbing, just make sure its where you need it. if you have plans for a pull out shelf under the sink you need to know this so the plumbing wont be in the way. With the apron sink will your faucet come out of the wall or out of the top of the sink? You need to know these things on rough in.
When I do a kitchen I usually run a laser (or however you can develop a plane) to base cabinet position on. After you have a plane established, do a story pole on the wall. This will help you figure out where electrical and plumbing will go.
I usually place cntr recp's at 48" to the top of box from the finished floor. Everything else should be based on their rough-in requirements.
When you open the walls, put in blocking at top of wall cab height to make easy attachemnt for the cabinet screws (not SR screws)
When you finish the drywall, be sure to keep a clean sharp inside corner to make fitting the countertop in easier.
Assuming the BB top will overhang the farm sink, seal the cut edges and bottom of the BB with Epoxy so water does not ruin it.
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good call on the inside corner of the drywall.
btw, what are SR screws?
what kind of epoxy is best for sealing the butcher block ends?
Epoxy - look for one with UV inhibitors if you don't want it to yellow on you.
SR screws are sheetrock screws. They are only strong enough for hanging paper sheetrock or plasterboard. They fracture easily when used on hardwoods. You probably want your cabinets to stay on the wall where you put them.I have seen so many of them broken when taking things apart remodeling and make such an issue of it here that the guys have affectionately nicknamed drywall screws after me. If you see the term Piffinscrews, now you know what they are talking about.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
thanks for the tip on the epoxy-i would not have thought to use UV inhibiting
i was trying to make things more complicated than they are thinking SR screws must be some kind of special fastener i hadn't heard of before...newbie!
we are doing mostly open shelving above the counters but the couple of wall cabs we will have will not be hung with Piffinscrews rest assured. thanks
Yes, soapstone is going to be expensive. Tho prices vary by location, I'd expect to pay about what you'd pay for any stone.
Soapstone is a wonderful choice for a relaxed, country or cottage style kitchen, and it will patina over time so it will look better as it ages. However, I don't think it's going to show to its best advantage on the backsplash, and it may be a bit dark with the cherry stain on the cabinets. Tile, bead board (painted), stainless are good choices for this type kitchen, too.
Would you consider using soapstone for the counter with the farm sink (better overall choice) rather than butcher block on all the tops? Also, be aware that some local codes may prohibit undermount sinks in butcher block tops.
Pay careful attention to the mounting of your apron sink in any top. I've seen pictures of some installations where the stone completely overlays the top lip of the sink, just as tho it was another stainless sink. That way the only portion of the top edge of the sink that shows is what's sticking out from the front of the cabinet. Pretty much kills the look of that beautiful sink that you paid a premium for. Check out mfr's pictures for your preferred look and make sure you give that info to the top fabricator.
As far as the appliances, look carefully at the "non marking" stainless finishes. The appeal of stainless is in its soft gleam; if the appliances don't have it, then either do a little more maintenance on the real thing or choose black, which is the next best choice with your finishes. My husband and I are the messiest people I know, and we co-exist with our stainless appliances without much hassle.
Recessed cans should be mounted at about 24" from the wall so that the center line is about at the countertop edge. Make sure to move the cans to 36" where they fall in front of an oven or refrigerator cabinet. Undercabinet lights, preferably switched, are ideal. Uplights on cabinet tops can be a nice addition, and some lighted cabinetry can provide some accent lighting.
Can you tell I'm a kitchen designer?
"consider using soapstone for the counter with the farm sink"I was thinking along the same lines there. Lot of advantages to soapstonetops for a kitchen.I place 4" cans 18-22" ( centered about 19-20")
When centered at 24" out from wall, there can be too much shadow from hand and head on the work space.
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You're probably right about the shadow, but I'm relying on good ucl's to overcome that. I think that 22" is a good compromise; 18" can sometimes make "hot spots" of light on the cabinet fronts using some of the brighter lamps.
Current customer is using soapstone in kitchen for her old farmhouse. My first experience with it though I've seen it over the years; contractor is providing for her and should be in next months. I'll try to get some pics!
Always enjoy your posts!
What you see as negative - hot spots - I see as decorative lighting.
But is it essential to plan every item and detail accurately so that the spots focus on the right spaces, centered on each cab unit or pair of doors or itr will thorw everything off balance. If you can't count on subs getting it right per plan, thedn you are better off pulling them back to avoid the halos
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thanks for your suggestions...we didn't want to spend $700 or more on an apron sink so we went with the ikea (i know, i know) model which actually has a small lip on either side that lays on the countertop with the front apron still exposed and extending about an inch and a half past the face of the countertops. it cost us $179 and has a 25 year warranty. we liked the look of it enough at that price although it definitely lacks a certain amount of the how do you say it je ne sais quoi of the higher end models.
would you say subway tiles would fit well with this model? it's a 1949 house and i'm worried that subway tiles would give it too much of a bungalow look...
is the non marking feature of stainless appliances highly advertised? i haven't seen that in any of the models i'm considering but it could be because i'm shopping in the wrong price range...
Haven't seen the Ikea sink; I'll give it a look. We're not haughty around here, Ikea, Crate & Barrel, etc. work just fine for me! Thought I would tell you that I think my current client's Rohl sink went well over $700, but what a beauty!
I think subway tile will be fine if you like it. I don't think of it as bungalow; it always reads as Edwardian manor house/ Upstairs-Downstairs kitchen to me, but I know it's not, so apparently it can be anything we want!! Seriously, I don't think it will clash with your house's style; it fits in well with many styles, and you're really not going for a period look anyway.
Shortly after the rage for SS began non-marking versions came out, supposedly in reaction to consumer complaints about fingerprints. The idea was hot for awhile, but seems to have faded, and I don't think many of the mfr's actually signed on. Many of those finishes were dull and looked really brushed, some weren't bad, but I like the real thing. I have found we have the most trouble with our MWV, which has a push button to open the door instead of a handle. I have really good luck with one of the specialty cleaners when just water or vinegar won't work.
I do have to shake my head at the current promotion for oil-rubbed bronze on every conceivable surface or fixture in the house!
Jack where ya located?
http://www.soapstones.com has some good deals on soapstone.
Soapstone backsplash is going to be a pain in shipping, long skinny pieces don't like to be moved, they will break quite easy when there is no support.
Soapstone tiles cut to 6x12 might be an option for ya. & yes you can do that work yourself.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
hey bill,
i'm in portland, oregon where the salmon runs big and pink. mmmmmm
compared to the cost of soapstone counters, butcher block won the match. we located some soapstone tile from Vermont Soapstone for a hearthpad that i am making for our woodstove. it's about $14 per 12x12x1/2" tile. that price didn't seem so bad but i shudder to think about the cost of shipping. heard anything about this outfit? they seem to be an artisan kind of place and i like that it comes from the u.s. and not from brazil or somewhere far off. btw, are you a plumber, or is plumbbill like plumb and level??
Plumber by birth ----- 4th generation
Auto mechanic by mistake
Wood worker by choice
I've been plumbing since I was 8 & that was------- well let's just say Carter was Prez.
Had a general contracting business for a short time until a large mechanical contractor swayed me from that & had me running highrise residential projects 20 to 50 stories.
I'm just north of ya in Tacoma Wa, but work is in Seattle & Bellevue.
I will be fishing the Wilson & Trask come Oct 17th for the big ole pig Chinooks.
I have 56 lineal feet of soapstone counters in my kitchen from soapstones.com--- do an advanced search of soapstone posted by me & you'll find some pics of my counters.
Vermont soapstone is the choice by many in here with the others liking M Texiara <sp> I would guess about 50/50 from what I have read.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
hey, good for you, i hear bellvue is really booming right now. i am an apprentice carpenter in the UBC doing primarily finish work. i've worked on quite a few of the high rise condos going up in Portland right now and i must say i'll be glad when the market moves on. the work is steady but unrewarding to say the least(mdf everything!!) i caught my first salmon this last fall- a 20lb Chinook with sea lice all over her!! now i'm the one who's hooked...springers here i come!
thanks for the comments. as this is our first house and the budget is pretty tight i'm fairly sure that i can't afford soapstone counters as much as i love the stuff. i have a contact in Vermont pretty close to their plant so i may be able to get a better deal on shipping the tiles, but for a countertop only a slab will do...so i'll make due with the butcher block and continue to dream...
btw, i may like to pick that seasoned brain of yours on some plumbing questions if you have the time. i've got to tie into our all galvanized lines to run water for the dishwasher and maybe a pot filler. i have done only minor plumbing to say the least and would appreciate any tips that you think the HO books at Home Creepo wouldn't have. Regards,
just looked at the pics in previous posts. very nice indeed!! i have always been fond of the green soapstone myself. nice to see it in action... thanks again
You know that space above the refrigerator that never gets used? Well, after you know the size of the fridge you can build a cabinet as deep as the fridge and only a couple inches higher with verticle slots to hold cookie sheets and the like that really clutter up other places that they are stored.
Now if you can reach two inches higher than the fridge you can grab anything in there by it's bottom corner. And place them back in just as easy.
I read a few posts but not all.
Lots o good ideas.
I did not see plug mold wiring.
If you are going to put in expensive backsplash, run plugmolds under cabinet for outlets instead of having the receptacles in the middle of your tile backsplash.
Need to rough in the 12 gauge wire before drywall and stub it out at the bottom edge of a run of cabinets. Make sure you have 2 20 Amp circuits in the kitchen for code.
Excellent idea! Some friends did this and it's great...no more uglies in the middle of the pretty tile!
Skip the pot filler (who needs a drip over a stove?), and go for the Little Butler by Franke. Get the model with a water filter and the instant hot. You will use it all day, every day.
Double the counter outlets above the code minimum. You never know where the outlet is most convenient until the kitchen is in use. Even better, someone once posted an idea of an outlet strip under the upper cabinets, behind the task lights.
...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
I like my pot filler, If you can swing it add as many draws on the lowers as you can. I have been doing remodles for Quite some time . Lot of great advice here,
This is my wifes kitchen ,about six years old , I Did this one top to bottom /Rip out /reframe/drywall/plumbing/ electrical/ paint and cabinet fabrication, Good luck, keep it fun.
Thomas Love
Edited 3/31/2008 10:34 am ET by gofigure57
nicely done kitchen. Love the maple, and the dovetails. not sure I want to show this one to the wife, or she'll be after me to redo mine. Hal
gofigure is just being modest. there are a few more photos of the excellent work in this thread over at Knots.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=40769.1
Edited 3/31/2008 12:45 pm ET by rvieceli
Thomas
I saw the pics of your kitchen over at knots but I don't usually respond to threads over there.
Beautiful kitchen, cant beat figured wood for cabinetry!
Doug
Thanks Doug.
Pretty kitchen! Love the exposed dovetail detail!
That little bulter is expensive.A Qucik and Hot is much cheaper, at least for the basic "faucet". And it works much better than the Insinkerators.And i think that the Insinkerators are cheaper also. But if with any of them you they can get expsive with the fancier dispensors.http://www.plumbingstore.com/hotwater.htmlhttp://www.costco.com/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=11226343&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-UShttp://www.anaheimmfg.com/products/faucets/faucetshot.htmBTW I see that this is the same tank as the LB.http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-856-quick-hot-instant-hot-water-dispenser.aspx"This Hot Tank is the same as Waste King, Everpure Everhot (EV931840), HT200 Franke¯ Little Butler Heating Tank, Everpure¯ Commercial Grade Instant Hot CGHE1 and Little Gourmet¯ heating tank.".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
psssst------ Franke's heating tank is made by ISE.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Don't think so.ISEhttp://www.insinkerator.com/product/product.php?id=45&template=hwdLook at the picture and download the specs.750 watts/6.25 amps
11"H, 6.75" D, 6.125" WQuick and Hot.
http://www.anaheimmfg.com/products/hotwater/quickhot.htm6.5 amps11.2" H, 8.1" D, 6.8" WFrankehttp://www.frankeksd.com/productdetail.php?prodid=187&node=11&group=82&lvl=2#11.2" H, 8.1" D, 6.8" WAnd it says 780 watts (8.3 amps). But 780 watts works out to 6.5 amps.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
They changed the case, or are buying from a different supplier now.
Put in 50 Franke's & 80 ISE's in that Lincoln square job almost all had the same heater.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
this is nice resource for someone who has some skills but isn't in the kitchen business.
http://10kkitchenremodel.blogspot.com
They go planning and design to execution and completion. Resources are all listed and the project is now complete so you can review from start to finish. Right now he's going over some planning sites.
Put more lights and plugs thatn you think you need. If you pull your own wiring it is pretty cheap. Pumb in an easy to access shut off for the dishwasher and don't forget a dedicated circuit for it. In our parts the plugs within a meter (about a yard) must be GFCI type. Good idea if your code doesn't require it.
Consider a steel stud wall where your cabinets and counters go. It will start straight and always be straight and it is not expensive to do.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Consider a steel stud wall where your cabinets and counters go
But run blocking between to hang the cabinets. My installers absolutely and resolutely hate metal studs!
you could also use lsl's in wall areas that need to be perfect- cabinet runs, door and window trimmers, etc.
k
I'm being dense today....can't find the right combo of words for "lsl".
And "duh" in advance for when I do!
Laminated strand lumber studs
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Thanks Mr. piffin for translating lsl. I was out in the field til 7:30 pm ca time, so it would have been a while.
Which makes me wonder; has anyone started a glossary of acronyms thread? If you put the word glossary in the body of the text along with an acronym and a definition ie lsl= laminated strand lumber, (engineered lumber), then an advanced search of glossary, lsl might take you to that defining post. There's a better way, I'm sure, but I'm not a computer genius. kind of a wikipedia (i know how much you love that) of breaktime acronyms? I might just start it...
k
(edited addition: well, I tried, (breaktime acronym guide- BAG) and it doesn't seem to work, maybe there's a time lag on the search function or maybe it was just a poorly though out idea... I haven't given up tho.)
Edited 4/2/2008 2:14 am ET by KFC
Yes, I always run blocks at 84 inches. Your installers hate walls that are laser straight? No need to scribe countertops, 10 % more volume for insulation. And after a couple of heating seasons no shrinkage or drywall pops.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Cliffy,
I think what they hate is when they have a job with metal studs and no one installed any blocking in the walls for hanging. Doesn't happen often, but apparently one job is too many!
You're definitely right about the advantages. I've had my share of calls from installers telling me the walls are just too bowed or far out to put the laminate counters on.
Once I had to put in a few butterfly bolts. That was a few mintutes extra but did the job. It sure is nice not having to scribe a laminate countertop.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Ms. susiekitchen,
I know piffin already defined lsl- sorry, I was in the field til 7:30 pm ca. time. As he said, it's engineered wood, similar to parallel strand beams. i've only heard dimensional lumber called "lsl". You can get in in loooong lengths, and it is dead straight and true (once you take the wobble out of it). It can be hard, i guess b/c of the glue, but nowhere near as hard to screw into as metal studs.
I had the pleasure of working on a big house outside of santa fe where we used it for trimmers and key wall sections. (studs, and even plates) Hanging doors, windows, and cabinets was a pleasure. I don't have enough expertise to say if the time saved on trim work really paid for the extra cost of the lsl's, but i think it did, and it was definitely worth it headache-wise.
Also- your question about an acronym got me to thinking (and i sent a message to piffin about this) has anyone started a breaktime acronym glossary thread?) If you put glossary and lsl (defined) in the same post, then anyone who wanted a definiton of lsl could search glossary, lsl and find that definition. I think I'll go for it it...
k
(edited insert: I tried starting a thread called Breaktime Acronym Glossary (BAG) to do just what I said. So far it's a big load of nada... I am no computer genius.)
Edited 4/2/2008 1:34 am ET by KFC
K,
Thanks to you and Piffin for the info. That's a term I hear so infrequently I couldn't make any association for the acronym.
Good idea about the glossary. You can also find a generally accepted glossary of abbreviations/acronyms in any copy of Architectural Graphic Standards, but you probably know that already.
S
My You can always skip the backsplash.
As to lighting, we have a bunch of recessed cans. I wish we had put more separate switches for them. We have three rows of three, all nine switched together. Put dimmers on everything.
Make sure the plumber doesn't use up more space than necessary with drain and vent pipes under the sink.
Butcherblock looks great, but can get ratty looking pretty fast especially near water, unless you are way less casual than we are. We used soapstone (Maine Soapstone) and it appears pretty indestructable. Every time we think we finally have a stain on it, it cleans up like new.
Here's my first kitchen attempt:
Hey again,
I was refiling some magazine pictures in my design file and I came across something that looks like it would be great for your backsplash.
From the picture I can't tell if it's tile or stone, but since it looks like it's tumbled, let's stay stone. It's rectangular, about the same height as subway tile, but not as wide as you generally see it. It's laid in a running bond, and there are insets of bas-relief bisque tiles above the range.
Colors range from taupe to grey to brown grouted in a bisque color. It's shown with a marble top and slate floor and light cherry (maybe alder) wood. I think it's the coloration that strikes me. It's warm and relaxed, but still a bit dressy.
This came from the Oct/Nov 2004 Remodeling Ideas magazine, but since I've torn the page out I can't look in the buyer's guide. I'd love for you to see the picture 'cause I'd love for you to also see an alternative color for the cabinets, too, just in case...
I'll try to find an on-line link. If not, I'll be happy to mail you the page if you'd like.
PS..fill in your profile!
Do you plan on a separate eating location within the kitchen? If so, what kind. Is being able to watch TV while eating, if you so choose, part of the plan?
What kind of floor will you have? If it's a tongue and groove wood floor, be sure he cabinets sit up on top of it, especially so the dishwasher can be easily installed and replaced.
A warming drawer is not a necessity, and neither is a second microwave, but they are useful.
And watch out for a strobed light effect from having the ceiling fans under the canned lights, and make sure the upper cabinet doors open with the ceiling fans running.
Don't ask me how I know this.
If you have the room, include a desk, with internet connection. Kind of a "command central". Helps you keep an eye on your kids internet, and help with homework.
Isn't the kitchen the heart and sole of any house?
"He said "Buck up baby, it's okay. The sunlight on the floor will always fall." ~ Sarah Harmer
thatjackbuilt.
Be very careful about cabinets.. My sister spent $33,000 on cabinets and the week they arrived she was at a surplus store that sold display models and her exact same cabinets were for sale for $1800.00 (nope I didn't miss a zero) they'd been on display and had been removed when it was time to change the display..
OK she would have still needed to buy some filler strips and 2 extra $550 dollar cabinets to be an exact duplicate but still.
The nicest kitchen remodel I ever saw had only one new cabinet a whole bunch of stuff adapted and converted.. Almost all second hand or well used.. It's amazing what a good eye and a lot of shopping can get for how little..
When you do finish your litchen put in the whole floor first.. yes tile right under where the cabinets will go. that way as styles change and your taste change with them you can replace cabinets easily. Avoid built ins, if the cooktop dies before you want to redo the whole kitchen or something you won't be compromising your style for a replacement..
Plan your wiring!
model kitchens need a lot of outlets all over the place and the old days of one kitchen light isn't going to work anymore..
Wow! I wish that surplus place was closer to me!!
Good idea about mixing cabinets. I personally love that look, but I know it's not for everyone.
Any chance you took any pics you could post?
susiekitchen
I've seen places like that in most major metropolitain cities..
Do you have any high volume cabinet shops around you? That might be a place to start to make inquiries.. Same with big box outlets like Home Depot and Lowes etc..
Displays in those places change every year sometimes.. those cabinets go someplace..
Check as well on habitate for humanity. Archetectaul salvage places.. every major metro area has places like this..
None of this is advertised.. deals like this you have to find usually through word of mouth.. because if everybody knew about it few would pay retail for cabinets..
Sorry no pictures.. I'm building my own home and have very few of the work in progress and none of the kicthen because that hasn't even been started yet..
Get a Fastcap tool kit - http://www.fastcap.com/products.aspx?id=1408 and learn about powerhead screws.
Don't use recessed lighting for the main lighting - use fixtures! (recessed to accent certain areas OK).
Don't skip the backsplash. Use a cap molding on the splash.
Restoration Hardware has sales - watch for them and buy hardware on sale - http://www.restorationhardware.com/rh/catalog/category/category.jsp?categoryId=cat160082
'Low maintenance' and butcher block (and soapstone) do not equate.
Horizontal blocking.
Ambiance or Pegasus LV undercabinet lighting.
Big sink ... and if stainless 18 ga.
Don't buy cheap faucets or sprays.
Jeff
Another good idea (at least my wife loves it). At the end run of wall cabinets (fridge, microwave, pantry cabinet), before the eating area, we turned a cabinet on end. This cab opens away from the traffic flow and I put an outlet in it for the hand vac charger and to recharge a small electric broom for quick clean up after the kids. Extra oven racks can also fit in this lower section. Spot clean up items, spare bibs/towels and the rest of the napkins and paper towels store up above....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
thanks everyone for all the input and suggestions. we are getting closer to ironing out all the details of our kitchen remodel. i'll be sure to post pics in about a month or so when all is done. whew! thanks again...
dont mean to hijack, well, yes I do, but it is related.I dont want upper cabinets. all I want is a stainless shelve the width of the bottom cabinet that I can place my plates on, and hang pots and pans under it.Can I do this or is the kictern design police gonna lock me up.
Why hang the pots and pans? That makes it harder for the dogs to clean them up, doesn't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
that would be funny but you never grew up in a house of weiny dogs.
Weinie dogs never grow up
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Can I do this or is the kitchen design police gonna lock me up.
You might get locked up but it wont be for that reason!
I done a kitchen with two shelves as uppers. first one was about 16" deep, top one was 12" deep.
Doug
The kitchen design police are all for it! Why have cabinets that you don't like or need?
Most pots & pans are better hanging than being stacked and beaten together anyway!
Now is your chance to do the venting right. Put in a quality vent hood -- you'll pat yourself on the back for years to come.
Bless you for that comment. I couldn't agree more!
Now's the time to plan for the ductwork for a proper ventilation system.