I have to have a ladder contact a wall 21 feet above the ground. According to everything I read the base of the ladder should be a little over 5 feet from the wall. Because of obstructions I can’t get the base any closer than 9 feet from the wall. Will a heavier (stronger) ladder make this safer or is there a better way to do this or is 9 feet not that big a problem?
Replies
The shallower angle does make it harder on the ladder, with more chance of it collapsing. It depends on how much you weigh (and what you may carry up the ladder), but a heavier-duty ladder may be advised.
More importantly, though:
1) The shallower angle makes the ladder feet far more likely to slip. If the frictional qualities of the surface you're on are at all suspect you'd want to use some sort of positive anchor for the ladder feet.
2) The ladder at that angle is considerably more difficult and dangerous to climb. Not much you can do about this other than to exercise far more care than you normally would.
Yeah, and having the ladder rest against something halfway up isn't good either. Leave several inches -- enough that the ladder won't bang against the obstruction as you climb.
####, huh?
I wouldn't have thought #### was taken already.copper p0rn
First off....what's the rating of the ladder? e.g. type 1, type 2, type 1A...etc..?
What size ladder are you using? 24', 32'...?
are you using a stand-off or not?
A longer extension ladder that is not fully extended affords more support than a shorter ladder fully extended.......and a higher rating(type 1A) ladder is sturdier than a lower rating(type 2) one.
Use the "swivel" feet on the bottom of the ladder....turn them so they dig into the ground or surface the feet will rest on....a softer surface...lawn vs. pavement....will allow the feet to get a better grip, but of course not to soft...i.e. mud......if need be secure a board across the bottom of the ladder to keep it from sliding....
The stand -off is not designed to take the same load as the ladder itself is, so be cautious there...and the type of stand-off newer "clip-on" vs. old style U-bolt style.
Geoff
I've got a 36' Type II. I'll be using a corner standoff. It's a bolt on. Haven't seen the new clip on type. Where can I get one? I only weight about 150 and won't be carrying much in the way of tools.
What is the obstruction? Any pictures you can share? Someone may be able to offer some advice for staging the work.
The obstruction is the bulk head. The ladder position will be at the corner of the concrete.
Open the bulkhead and drop the bottom of the ladder down a couple of steps? Gets you a better angle and no way will the bottom kick out.
a type II ladder is rated for 225#. Ladders are rated with a 3X safety factor, meaning that a new one, set at ideal angle, in ideal circumstances, is likely to take 675# of force before it fails.
A 150# man can generate that much force by jumping onto it from suficient height, or by bouncing up and down on it while holding a bundle of shingles over his shoulder.
With greater angle out, it is easier to generate that force, so one would tread carefully.
if the ladder is old, it has already been weakened by streess and no longer has the same fail point.
If it is not set up so both legs get same load, it is easier to kill the poor thing.
Like someone said, if it is an extension ladder not fully extended, it will handle more in the middle, but the same load rating applies to things like feet, and dogs.
I would do this setup myself, but stab a stake in ground or dig feet in, so they cannot slide out from under you. I have ridden ladders, and it is thrilling, but the sore spots will be reminding you how much of a cheap thrill it was at least a week later.
And if you spill paint on yourself on the way down, the paint will still be in your hair a week later.
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Another ladder thread? I don't know if I can take one.Anyways, I just wanted to chirp in that I see the Hispanic crews setting up ladders with the bad angles all the time. I've seen one take the fall too. They don't understand about the kickout factor too well. One issue that should be addressed is the question of what kind of work is being done at the top. When the ladder is at a such a low slope, it's much harder to stand at the top and get any work done.
I was afraid you had started this one, LOL;)
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Just make sure the ladder doesn't skid out on you. I had one do that once a couple years ago. I was only about 8' up and it skid out so fast that by the time I had any idea what happened i was looking at my own blood dripping in the snow. I had a headache for a few days and my shins still hurt. I think if a person takes a fall like that from 21' your probably a dead man. Be careful.
I fell about 16-18' once.It all depends how you land and on what. Sometimes people die falling 2' off a stepladder.I worked with a guy who had taken the biggest ladder ride I'd ever heard tell of the year before.It was a 40' ( 36' full actually) ladder up to a roof. Three guys had already just gone up ahead of him. He got to the top and was just ready to step off it onto the roof, when the dogs failed.He rode the top section down that 16', then when it hit hard, it threw him off and he tumbled going down. He described it in slow mo. Said he remembered still the shocked face of a cleaning woman wiping a window as he went past. He landed on his shoulder, broke a couple ribs, and his collarbone, and some neck bruising. Slightly different landing and it would have been a broken neck.
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Your ladder is supposed to be set up at around 70 degrees. Below that it gets more and more dangerous. At least set up a 'deadman' anchor - 2 x 6 with stakes driven into the ground to keep the legs from sliding.
5' x 21' seems awfully steep to me, Jimmie. I'm not sure where you got those figures.
The traditional rule of thumb on ladder angle is to stand up dead straight with your toe touching the ladder foot, and stick out your arm towards the ladder. The heel of your palm should touch the ladder rail with your elbow straight.
On a six-footer, from armpit to wrist (the run) is about 2 feet, and from armpit to the ground (the rise) is about 4.5 feet. Divide that out and you get a ratio of 0.444.
In your scenario, your ladder's minimum run would be 9 feet, and the rise would be 21 feet. Divide that out and you get 0.428, which is just a tad steeper, actually, than what you'd get using the old rule of thumb method. (If you used 5x21, OTOH, you'd be at 0.238. Ooof....)
I think you'll be okay at 9x21...but you're going to need about 23 feet of ladder length, which means your nominal 36 footer (32' max) is gonna be extended almost to three quarters of its working length. It'll be bouncy even at a good angle, so take it real easy.
Better yet, strap it tight to the house with a couple of ratchet straps hooked to about the middle of the span, staying them outwards laterally (about 120º from strap to strap) to prevent swing, but keeping the vertical angle as close to 90º to the rails as you can.
By cranking in on the ratchets carefully, you can put a controlled, constant load on the rails which will take 90% of the bounce out of it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Edited 10/12/2009 11:53 pm ET by Dinosaur
"The traditional rule of thumb on ladder angle is to stand up dead straight with your toe touching the ladder foot, and stick out your arm towards the ladder. The heel of your palm should touch the ladder rail with your elbow straight."Never heard that one, and I am quite sure I have always set mine up steeper than that
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I once took an OSHA fall protection safety class and recall that the straight arm test was the practical method for assessing safe ladder angle. I'm sure a few degrees in or out will also work, given proper precautions, but apparently it is close enough so that it was recommended by the trainers.
I know most novices feel more comfortable with it a bit less steep than I am used to, but i've been up and down them all my life
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The straight-arm rule is what's now depicted graphically on the warning labels affixed to the rails of new ladders, at least the ones sold here. I don't know if that's common elsewhere.
I prefer the ladder slightly too steep than too shallow, because it bounces less. But, if it's too steep, it can lift off the wall if ya lean back too far to reach for something. I hate when that happens.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
never had that happen, but it also can slide sideways easier when it is too steep, because there is less friction ladder to wall
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That too!
If I'm gonna be up on a ladder for more than a few minutes--or if it's gotta be a wonky setup for whatever reason--I'll tie the thing off somehow, even if it means driving stakes into the ground. Makes all the diff.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Fire service training, 70-75 degrees is optimum climbing angle.
1/4th the height away from the wall is a common rule of thumb here, too.
Neat trick I learned in the academy that I'd never seen in 18 prior years of building is putting your leg through the rung at waist height, then turning it and pushing it back through below, hooking rung with top of foot; Gives both hands free, great for certain tasks at both jobs.
I'd put some stakes in at the bottom too, unless you can really dig the feet in, and have somebody girthy that you trust stand on the bottom
Bing
i've done that when I need to, but can wreak havock with calf or back f knee tendons, or cause cramps. It can really be hell to try getting out of that position with a cramp attack.
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I've never used that technique. I'd be paranoid to try it if the ladder was not tied off. I would "feel" trapped. I always leaned my laddders up on the steep side. I hated the thought of kickout and bounce. I also leaned the ladder on glass thousands of times and that won't work if the angle is too shallow because of the extra weight applied to the wall/window. I also liked that the ladder would move easily from side to side. I typically "leaned" it several feet each way in order to minimize my trips up and down.
The ladder leg lock trick works on fire service ladders, but unless your short legged, it is pretty hard to do on regular store bought ladders. Reason is that fire ladders have a larger rung spacing than their store bought counterparts. You're right about the climbing angle.
> Neat trick I learned in the academy that I'd never seen in 18 prior years of building is putting your leg through the rung at waist height, then turning it and pushing it back through below, hooking rung with top of foot; Gives both hands free, great for certain tasks at both jobs.I'm pretty sure I've done that once or twice when painting soffits and the like.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Well,
We in the Navy learned how to go up and down ship's stairs (ladders) never touching the rails. It was all a matter of balance and a controlled fall going down, and pretty much the same going up (denying a fall). The techniques still stay with me, and I never have a problem with stairs, even into my sixties.
I wonder about the straight arm test. I was watching two boxers yesterday of equal height who had an 8" difference in reach.
That means the referree needed to do lots of deep knee bends to keep ducking and still keep his eyes on the action
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I wonder about the straight arm test. I was watching two boxers yesterday of equal height who had an 8" difference in reach.
Arm length is proportional to height in normal human beings, so it doesn't matter how tall the guy is; the angle formed will be the same whether he's 4'6" or 6'4", plus or minus a degree or so. It's a rule of thumb; we're not talking vernier protractors here....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I think you missed the meat of my post. If you watch boxing regularly you will see that fighters of the same height often have a large disparity in their reach. I don't know if it is enough to affect the safety of ladders, but as I said an 8" difference is not uncommon.
I don't follow boxing, not since Cassius Clay lost a fight to what's-his-name back in 70-something. ;o) Can't even remember now if he had changed his name before or after that fight, but I think it was the first (and last) major fight he ever lost.
I do remember Howard Cosell waxing rhapsodic about his style, however.
Whatever; I'd say that if two guys the same height have an 8" difference in arm length, one (more likely both) of them is definitely off the curve by a fair amount.
View Image
Remember Leonardo da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, an illustration of a man inscribed in a circle and square, which showed that his armspan was equal to his height? Of course, this is also an average; but it's useful to know when you want to measure off a few fathoms of rope, and you know you're one fathom (six feet) tall....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You lead too sheltered a life in Quebec. Come out here and we can measure the wingspan and height of the simians that drink at Buffys Pub on the weekend.
Seriously though, I'm sure my observation doesn't materially affect the ladder's angle any more than not being able to stand straight up.
Okay, here's another 'rule of dumb': If the top of the ladder doesn't start to lift off the building when you stand on the bottom rung, grab the rung at shoulder height with one hand, and lean back slightly to pick up a tool...it's set too flat.
;o)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Fro instance, I shoot a 32" arrow in archery, while a lot of guys my size shoor a 30
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Is the arrow length determined solely by reach or does the strength with which you are able to draw the bow play into it?
Arrow length is determined by reach. There is actually a determined position that one draws to - with your bow-holding hand outstretched, you draw until your drawing hand is right at the level of the angle of the jaw - at least, that's how I was taught in junior high school.The stiffness of the bow is determined by your strength, and is measured in the number of pounds needed to draw to a certain amount of deflection of the bow.Oh, and there is a LOT of variability in the ratio of reach to height of people - not just wrestlers.Rebeccah
Edited 10/19/2009 1:15 am by Rebeccah
Howdy Doc, ever treated any arrow injuries?When I was a kid and learning, I had an arrow that was too short. it slipped off the rest and came to have point wedged to back of the bow just above my left hand as I released. It was a cedar shaft which splintered, sending one through the meat between my thumb and paw, and a couple smaller slivers in my cheek and arm.Needless to say, I learned to size arrows before using them.BTW, I draw the nock to the corner of my mouth
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Hey, Piff.No, never treated any arrow injuries. I've removed my share of nails from hands and thighs and feet, though.Had one injection injury of hydraulic fluid to the hand. That one was ugly.I was taught to pull back to where the web between thumb and index finger nestled against the angle of the jaw. That would put the nock to just about level with the corner of the mouth, but a smidge lower. It's been a long time.ebeccah
That is a common mehtod to reference the draw
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Sounds like your teachers had more faith in you than ours did. They wouldn't let us anywhere near arrows. We had to spend our time making sculptures out of asbestos, then straight home to fire up the smelter to make more lead soldiers!
I thought the rule was the distance from the wall should be 1/4 of the height...20 feet up divided by 4 = 5 feet out.
Do I have it wrong?
thought the rule was the distance from the wall should be 1/4 of the height...20 feet up divided by 4 = 5 feet out.
Do I have it wrong?
I've never heard of that formula myself; where did you see it?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Ladder Safety Web Site
"Extension Ladders should be erected as close to a pitch of 75 1/2o from the horizontal as possible for optimum resistance against the bottom of the ladder sliding out, strength of the ladder, and balance of the climber. A simple rule for setting-up the ladder at the proper angle is to place the base a distance from the wall or upper support equal to one-quarter of the extended length of the ladder side rails."
The picture on the side of my ladder mentions 75 degrees too.
I'll take a look at it. But right off the bat, I can see you confused the 'rise' with the ladder length, and doing that would tend to set the foot in closer than recommended.
You said it had to hit the wall at a height of 21 feet...which, with a run of 9 feet (what you've got, like it or not) gives a hypotenuse of just under 23 feet. One quarter of that is closer to 6 feet than five.
Now you've got my curiosity piqued. I've gotta go install a couple of screen doors while it's not snowing; while I'm outside I'll measure the angle my ladder sits at using the straight-arm test.
Back to you later.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"install a couple of screen doors while it's not snowing;"Just in time to keep the flies and skeeters out eh?
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Just in time to keep the flies and skeeters out eh?
More to keep the squirrels and raccoons from making nuisances of themselves. Summer verandah, used for dry storage of firewood in the winter. Tried to get 'em to go for glazed sash to insert into the screened openings on that verandah, to make it a 3-season room, but I got the ol' standard, 'Next year....'
Only got one door hung. Naturally, just as I got everything set up the sky opened up. T-squall w/snowflakes. What fun. I'm gonna finish that inna morning. Gonna tie into a nice hot supper of Thanksgiving leftovers: Lac Brome duckling & all the trimmings, with a shot of Jameson up front to put some feeling back in my fingertips....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Of course I'm confused...one of my parents was a man and the other was a woman. I reread everything and you are correct. I should have used 1/4 of the ladder length not the touch point on the wall. I should be able to get a best case angle of 69 degrees..worst case 67 degrees.
Thank You
If you took the civil service test in my city for carpenter, the answer would be 4:1, that is a foot from the wall for every vertical four feet. That would support Dinosaur. But, if you're young and "immortal," it could end up to be 2:1 or less. Hope you don't have children.
The test I took was no provided by that department.With every ladder ride I took, my setup got steeper, and my feet dug in deeper.
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civil service test in my city for carpenter, the answer would be 4:1, that is a foot from the wall for every vertical four feet. That would support Dinosaur.
Actually my original figures were something like 2.25:1, but that didn't seem right when I reduced it, so I did a couple of sketches. That's when I realised I had forgotten to subtract the length of the front of that hypothetical six-foot carp's foot from his arm length.
Using the 'straight arm' test, the actual triangle is from the heel of the hand, down to the guy's boot toe, straight up a plumb line to his arm, and from that point out to the heel of his hand. So for a guy with a 2-foot long arm whose boot sticks out about 6 inches in front, the actual top of that triangle measures about 1.5 feet.
That makes the ratio of the straight-arm test .333 when you divide it out, which is 1:3.
Pardon my error.
So:
Straight-arm test is 1:3 which measures about 71 degrees.
Carp's test answer is 1:4 which measures about 76 degrees.
Jimmie's 9:21 angle reduces to 1:2.333, which measures about 66 degrees.
A little flat, but if staked and tied off properly, he oughta be okay.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I always knew it at 4 to 1 too. I never really measured it though. I did always point out the little picture on the side to all the rookies and demand that they follow it.
I thought the rule was the distance from the wall should be 1/4 of the height...20 feet up divided by 4 = 5 feet out.
Do I have it wrong?
No. you actually have it right. At least according to OSHA. 4:1 ratio of vertical rise to vertical run. OSHA wants the angle no less than 75 degrees.
I had it wrong the first time too. The straight arm method is a good tip. Never heard it until this post.
Per my other reply my calcs were using the wrong measurements. Putting up the 36 footer myself ain't easy. I put the foot against the house foundation and walk it up. It's not fun moving it from there. Any tips? It was easier when I was a little younger and I weighed a little more.
Even a 32 footer--longest ladder I will voluntarily use--is a cast iron bitch to put up (or take down) alone. If it gets away from you, there's no getting it back, even with a cheap, lightweight aluminum job. You don't wanna know what my FG ladders weigh.
You could get a set of wheels for the top end, prop that against the house, then use a block and tackle made off to a stake or the house to haul the foot end in towards the wall. Once the foot is at about the right distance, belay the tackle and start hauling up on the extension halyard.
Yeah, I know; that won't work for a corner. Better bring a husky bud along with ya on that day....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
How 'bout I cut it down? I should be able to get to the peak (2 story colonial) with a shorter ladder. Your thoughts on the cut down?
A 28 footer oughta get you there with a foot or so to spare, but it will be more bouncy than the longer one not extended as much. You really need to tie this puppy off nice and solid, no matter what length you use.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I draw the line at 28 feet. A 28-footer can be raised by one person, without having to lever it against anything. Anything taller and you have to start resorting to tricks (and it's tricky enough without tricks).
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I can still stand a 36' alone, but now I have to sit down and rest for ten minutes after getting it up. Twenty years ago, I could be running up it as soon as the top and feet were in the right place. Had even learned to carry a 36' vertically on level ground with no wind blowing.
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Yeah, I'm sure it can be done, but you have to use some trick to wedge the foot. 28 is the approximate limit raising a ladder on a reasonably smooth surface without wedging it against something.And, as you say, it's partly an issue of whether you get a heart attack doing it.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
dan-- i raise a 32 ft. ladder by myself all the time--without wedging it against anything here is how pick out visually where you want the feet to plant-----balance the ladder horizontally on your shoulder and walk towards that spot while pushing the ladder backwards on your shoulder--- shifting more length of the ladder behind you,WHILE simultaneoulsly pulling DOWN on the weight in front of you---as you near the " plant spot" pull the ladder down and dip your legs slightly untill the foot of the ladder plants--and then straighten your knees and push UP up up-- the ladder will pop right up the taller and heavier you are- the easier this is---- it's a matter of putting the ladder into a favorable motion and KEEPING it in motion untill it reaches where you want it I don't know ,really if it can be done if you are 5'8" and 140#'s-- but it can be done pretty easy at 6 ft. and 200#s plus it's really about using balance and forward momentum BTW----- Dinosaurs arms length rule of thumb is what I use--and then I usually set it a little steeper----never flatter without blocking the feet---and I don't like to block the feet because that's a trip hazard.
stephen
I guess my problem (besides being a wimp) is that I never have the room to do the maneuver you describe. Always a fence or something in the way.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Stephen,
I carry a bunch of eye hooks to place into fascias and water table boards to tie the tops and bottoms off securely if I have any doubts at all about wind or slippage .
Walter
walter,
when I can back my truck close to the spot-- I do the trick with the truck as well-----but usually that's only good for one side of the house( driveway side)----usually phone lines/power lines,tree limbs in the wayI carry a length of rope in my nail bags and generally tie off the top of the ladder to 2 of the existing gutter spikes.Stephen
I carry a length of rope in my nail bags and generally tie off the top of the ladder to 2 of the existing gutter spikes.
I usually set a C-clamp on the gutter each side of the ladder if I'm worried about the top slipping sideways. If there's no gutter, I'll screw a block of 2x to the fasca each side of the ladder.
My tie-off usually concentrates more on hauling the ladder tight towards the house than preventing side-swing. I use ratchet straps for that.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've told Mrs. Gough that I'll retire when I can't put up my 40-footer by myself. Similarly to the method others have posted, I generally "foot" the ladder against the building, walk it upright with my arms straight, raise the fly section to the appropriate height, then walk the base back to the correct angle. Because we're generally painting and don't have anything to tie off to, I use ladder mitts to keep our ladders from sliding sideways. The leg-lock trick works great on extension trestle ladders. In fact, it's almost mandatory, since the fly section is fully vertical. Since you have to straddle the top of the ladder, locking your leg in is critical to keep you there. It also makes the inevitable few inches of back-and-forth movement in those ladders tolerable.
Oh, I can still put up a 40 footer...it's just that when I'm gonna be that high off the ground, I prefer to have something a little more solid than a friggin' ladder holding me up!
Heights don't bother me, nor does moving around while I'm up there. I used to work Merchant Marine: try changing the bulb in the masthead light on a tug boat in a 10-foot seaway sometime if you want a wild ride. But those masts are heavy steel, and the rungs are welded to them. The masthead may be swinging and whipping back and forth all over bog's half-acre, but the mast itself doesn't bend, flex, or bounce...unlike 36- and 40-foot ladders which shiver and shake and bounce with every step or movement you make.
The way I tie off a ladder, I know it's not going to come loose. And I also know the damned thing ain't gonna break in half under my piddling 150lbs...but it's like 'knowing' that the lion in whose mouth you've just placed yer head is well trained.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Yeah, it does bother me when I'm up the 40-footer and look down and the ladder side-rails seem to merge at the vanishing point. Fortunately, our 24-footers are the workhorses. Sometimes, I'll go several years without having to drag out the 32- or 40-footer and that's OK with me.
My 20-footer is the one that lives on top of the truck; the 32 footer only gets drug out once in a blue moon; mostly when I need to pull it apart to use the two sections as hook ladders for metal roof jobs. We're in the land of the one-and-a-half storey house up here; most 'second floors' are built inside a gambrel or mansard or 12:12 gable roof. That keeps the height down a bit.
Besides, if I take on a whole-house paint job, I'm going in there with 15 or 20 sections of pipe scaffolding. Painting off a ladder is literally a pain in the neck. Scraping from one is even worse.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I agree with you 100% about painting from ladders. When we're using the 24-footers, we're using them with ladder jacks and planks. We'll paint down to ~12 feet, then switch to planks between trestles. More and more, we use sectional scaffolding instead. The exception would be something like a re-stain job, where we only make two passes over the whole house. I'll use ladders & planks then, because of the short duration of the job. I'm much happier working off of scaffold, with runs of planks that allow us to walk/scrape/sand/paint/etc. from one end of the house to the other. I think it makes for a better-looking paint job as well: no lap marks. On some of the jobs I've seen around here, you can tell each place the painter set up his ladder by the lap marks.
Yessir....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Just out of curiosity, why pipe staging as opposed to pumps?
I see a few guys using pipe, but the vast majority use pumps if they set up a staging at all....All the paint subs I've ever hired used ladders. I agree 100% about the lap lines. Best looking jobs are when you can take 5 or so rows of clap and run end to end keeping a wet edge.
On occasion, if a job I'm doing is small, or if I have the time on my own stuff and can grab the labor myself, I'll do an exterior paint job. Always off the Aluma-poles, but I'm just as comfy on an old set of wooden poles with the right braces.....
Always liked that I could keep the work at a comfortable height, drop the staging a couple cranks as I walk by....
Seems like a ton of work setting up pipes is all.
Bing
He doesn't have the calves for pumps.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
We're mostly doing repaints, so I've never warmed to the idea of having to do either the roof patches or the touch-ups after pumps. When we set up sectional scaffold, we generally space our towers from 10 to 20 feet apart, hang side brackets for scaffold planks, then run aluminum planks from one tower to the next. That lets us handle the long horizontal runs easily. I keep trying to come up with a system that would let us attach the poles to our scaffold towers, rather than fastening them to the building. That would be the best of both worlds.As I mentioned a few posts back, we'll use ladders, ladder jacks, and planks if we only have to take one or two passes on a wall, like a re-stain job. We do a lot of jobs with "heavy prep", up to total paint removal, so we often spend a lot of time on a wall. In those cases, the time to set up the towers is well spent.
It does seem like a lot of work to set them up, but it really isn't that bad.
Most of the time all we're setting up is three or four levels by however wide the building face is. Worst cases are when there's a narrow deck in the way or something like that, but my rental yard has half sections--both half height and half width--and both 7' and 10' cross braces, so there's always a way to do it altho sometimes I gotta get creative.
I've never used pumpjacks altho I've worked for guys that do. Part of the reason I don't is that I don't like having to punch holes that big in the house. When I tie off the top of a set of pipe staging, it only takes a piece of plumbers strap and a few #14 x3" screws every 20 feet to keep the whole thing from swaying. But to hold a pumpjack pole in place, you need a little more beef than that.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino, you're certainly right about having to get "creative" on occasion. The most common problem around here is that, with the exception of our downtown, there's hardly a level lot...or anything even close. A lot of our houses are single story in the front and 3 full stories in the back.Usually, when we're working on any walls longer that about 25 feet, we put up towers and run longer 20" aluminum planks between the towers. That way, we get more "mileage" out of the scaffold that I've got.We don't normally fasten our scaffolding to the building. Up to 20 feet it's not required (shorter than 4x narrowest base width). Above that and we use diagonal braces/stakes to the outside whenever possible. By squaring, leveling, and plumbing our frames; pinning all of the frames together; and hanging extra frames to counterbalance the side-bracket load, we pretty much eliminate any sway.I'm always amazed at how few contractors use side brackets for unfettered access to the working area. Bricklayers and large commercial outfits are about the only others that I see using them. They are one more bit of ironmongery to haul around, and they mean having to counterbalance the scaffold, but they sure make the work a lot easier.
The provincial safety board requires scaffolding over 3 sections high (15') to be tied on. (They also require bananas, handrails, and so forth that you'll never see except on commercial sites.) If there isn't any way to tie on without doing unacceptable damage to the building facade, I'll guy it to anchors on the ground.
I don't use towers unless I'm building a chimney and have to stage over to the roof. For paint, siding, or roofing, I erect the staging full width of the area we have to work. Most of the time I use 10-foot braces, but if the building is a weird width and there are clearance 'issues' I'll use 7-footers. We can rent aluminum platforms for either 10' or 7'; shifting a 10-foot platform alone is a major pita (because of the hooks), so if there's gonna be a lot of that I either use planks or set up 7 foot sections.
Slopes, hills, and etc., I deal with by using adjustable screw jack feet and/or half-height (30") frames. Here in the mountains, there's a lot of that, LOL....
I'm not familiar with what you refer to as 'side brackets for unfettered access to the working area.' Could you explain that in a bit more detail?
Thanks. Off to finish a simple roof guarantee repair; shingles failed at year 9/25 so we're getting 60%. It's +2º now, almost warm enough to handle the shingles without shattering them. Hi temp for today is predicted to be about +8.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
DinoAre you in BC or AB? And what are "bananas"? Do they do the same thing as pigtails (lock frames together vertically)?I've also heard side brackets called outriggers or even bike frames. They are the triangular brackets, most commonly 20" wide, that hang from the side of the scaffold and let you run planks or scaffold deck along the side. All of my sectional scaffold is from Safway (now ThyssenKrupp Safway)and you can see illustrations of the brackets on their website (under "Sectional Scaffold"). My guess is that you've seen them, but they may have been called something else (like "bananas"). I've certainly run into THAT issue when I'm working on projects in Canada. Roof work at 2-8 degrees? I hope that's C and not F. We had 8F here last week and I'm sorry that I was out of town and missed the fun.Stay safe.
Are you in BC or AB? And what are "bananas"?
I'm in Quebec. 'Bananas' are indeed what you call pigtails; the rental agency is obliged to give them to us with any rental of more than one section, but almosty no one uses them. Handrail brackets they actually charge for; no one rents them except for commercial.
Side brackets--I looked at that website but it's all megabyte downloads for the pdfs and I'm on dial up so I gave that part a pass. But I get the drift. Thanks.
Yah, the temps I mentioned are in Celsius. Got almost up to 8 today. Roasty-toasty up there on the black roof as long as the sun was directly on it. Soon as it passed behind the trees, tho, the shingles cooled off real quick and I thot I was gonna need to get out the heat gun to bend up the tabs of the old shingles so I could nail the new ones underneath.
Done, tho. Monday I go back and pick up the scrap trailer and dump it and install one piece of metal I didn't have with me today.
All I got left to do now is my own roof. Lol....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Heres how I attach pipe staging to the building .Just remember the 3/4" wrench when it's set up time .
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Nice; I gotta get me a few of those, LOL.
Yeah, I'm using hunks of 2x and pipe strap. Wouldn't pass a CSST inspection, but it takes the wobble out of a set of pipes well enough. That's the main thing I'm interested in. I'm not planing on dancing a Viennese waltz up on the fifth level....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
As long as the wrench is handy these are a snap and rock solid .
I used to do the same as you until I saw another contractor using these -- I ordered some for myself right away .
First thing on next spring's 'gotta' list. Thanks.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
DinosaurI think you can see an example of the side brackets that we were talking about in the upper left-hand corner of the photo from slateman. OTOH, I have missed a few details on some of his early photos.
Thanks, I hadn't noticed the first time I looked at that. I'm going to have to do a little shopping around to find that stuff. Local b-box carries 5x5 frames and 10' crosses; that's about all. Real basic.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You're right on the money Gough .
Heres another picture of some on that same set up .
The end arm brackets are quite handy too , even though none are in use here.
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heart's fine, but shoulders are blown out now
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
I always carry my ladders on my rack with the feet to the rear so I can untie , slide back a bit ,then leverage off the rack to stand the ladder vertical .
Then carry to where it's being placed - if there are no wires in the way .
Had to look at the upper roof of a Mansard on Sat . . Did that with a 40' one in the wind and almost lost it .Luckily I backed up to within 15' of where I was placing it .
Walter
same here when I have it on the truck instead of van.I generally ram feet up against the foundation and keep right on walking it up, and bacck away as it becomes balanced vertical until the feet are out far enough, then set it down.But I learned 20 years ago to check whether the foundation is ICFs or not. ( insert sheepish grin here)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
... but now I have to sit down and rest for ten minutes after getting it up.
No, you didn't really say that....
;o)
No 36-footers here. But my 32-footer has a pair of 15-lb steel roof hooks bolted to the top end of the fly section. Figure I can grab the ladder about 6 feet from the end, that makes the length of the moment arm 10 feet X 15 extra pounds = 150 lbs. so it's like I'm trying to swing that ladder vertical with my twin brother sitting on it.
Done that one too many times.
So now I cheat. I either stand on the tailgate of the truck to get it vertical directly when coming down off the rack, like Walter; or I use rigging to haul it into place: Use my 20-footer to screw an eyebolt into the house about 16 feet up, shackle the block of a single whip halyard to that, and make off the end of the whip to the top of the unextended 32-foot ladder. Block the feet with my boots and haul in on the whip and she comes up like a charm.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The others are correct when they say your biggest worry is the ladder 'kicking out' from under you.
If I had NO OTHER choice, I'd sandwich the latter between the building and my truck - so there was no possible way for those feet to move.
I would also use a ladder stand-off bracket. While originally intended to let you 'bridge' windows, the wider footprint they give the top of the ladder means it rests much more securely against the wall.
Had a difficult ladder placement myself today . Had to get up from a porch membrane roof that has 2 skylights in it .
Had to use a 16' fiberglass at a real shallow angle , then tied around the skylight to the rail of the ladder .
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That made my palms sweat just to look at it. Does look like a tough set and I'm not quite sure what the rope does. Looks like the likely failure would be for the ladder to slide straight back, in which case the rope wouldn't do much.In similar situations, we've either framed a "box" over the skylight that would support us and our gear or straddled the skylight with some sectional scaffolding.
Walter, I'd have to agree; the way that rope is rigged it isn't doing much to keep the ladder foot in place.
Gough's idea of framing a support platform to cover the skylight would have been the best; failing that you'd have been better off using a 2" ratchet strap to bind the ladder to the skylight frame. You can't get sufficient tension in a rope to do that without mechanical help--pulleys, a capstan, or even a Spanish windlass. Add to that the fact the rope you used is a dynamic climbing rope, which is designed to stretch, and it's really not buying you much more than a false sense of security.
Not saying it's not a tricky setup problem to be faced with; just don't wanna see you take a ride on that thing....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino ,
I get a kick out of you and Gough telling me the rope isn't doing anything to keep the ladder from slipping , yet I worked off that aluminum deck above most of the day Friday and it didn't quiver .
Thought I'd illustrate another way to stage an area quickly and safely . Of course I work alone so I certainly couldn't have any hired help involved .
Walter
Look at Fat Romans tag line sometime !
Edited 10/17/2009 12:55 pm ET by theslateman
Sometimes, pictures can't really portray how safe something is or isn't. I understand that the rope "probably" is sufficient to get me to climb that rig but I would really not like climbing that ladder at that low angle. I also wouldn't be too keen about loading it up with scaffolds, people, tools and materials. To alleviate that fear, I probably would have added some additional support to the ladder or scaffold. I like redundancy when I jury rig stuff like that. Because I primarily worked with plenty of wood and plywood, I most likely would have quickly built a level base over the skylight and put the ladder up on the proper angle. But thats just me. I was always rather paranoid about scaffolds and ladders even though I'm a master of scaffold boogerin.
Blue ,
That yellow ladder was only supporting the end of a 16' alum. deck .
My access was up a ladder to the left of the rubber roof ,then stepping onto the left hand end of the deck . Climbing it and over the deck isn't something I would have considered .
Walter
Walter--
I had the same problem with the pix; I didn't notice the second rope--the one coming around the back side and made off to the rung. That makes the set-up work.
All I saw at first was the dark coloured rope coming in from the left, perpendicular to the direction of pull needed to keep the foot from kicking out. That's what my worries were based upon.
We're just trying to keep you in one piece, bro. No criticism intended.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino ,
No offense taken , just the camera not depicting all the evidence .
Certainly not the best set up I've ever done , but it worked well enough for a 2 day repair job .
Not having any weight besides me on it helped too I bet .
Hope you can steal time for your own roof before ski season !
Best , Walter
I could strip it, lay membrane, and shingle it in two long days working alone...but there's a bunch of detail stuff I want to do at the same time--new scroll-cut fascias, a 16 x 8 x 2 louvered cupola--and this time of year, the days aren't long. Too cold before about 10 or 11am to handle the shingles without cracking them; then about 3 or 4pm the sun goes away and they cool off again real quick.
Weather forecast is for warmish (up to 8 or 9 C) over the next few days; we'll have to see how it goes.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I don't see how you guys can comment on whether his ladder rope is adequate or not. I see two ropes, neither a trip hazard, and you don't see where each runs to.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One's tied to the bumper of his pickup, the other to the bumper of the HO's car.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I didn't comment, but I'm guessing that those guys thinking that that was bogus only saw the blue rope when they looked at the photo....If that were all that was there, I'd agree....The white rope is locking it from sliding, but on my monitor, it was tough to pick out.
I wouldn't criticize Walter's staging techniques no-how....Anybody that's lived long enough to grow a beard like that has the right idea, conventional staging or not...:)
Bing
I see two ropes,...
You nust have better resolution on your screen than we do; obviously an old man like you couldn't have better vision!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Paul ,
My one 15' deck line wasn't long enough to reach all the way around that skylight so I used two bowlines to join the white rope to the blue , then hooked to the ladder .
I thought everyone could see the rope circling the unit for securing the base of the ladder .
It wasn't used for access though , had a full height ladder off to the left .
Walter
Gough ,
The rope is tied around the skylight frame to the ladder rung and is the only thing keeping the ladder from sliding out from under me while working on the plank above me .
The rope is doing everything in this instance .
Walter
WalterSorry. I couldn't tell that from the photos. Glad it was an uneventful day.
Thanks , I know it looks unconventional , but it worked fine for the 2 day job I faced of removing slate and snow guards , laying Grace over the decking then reslating .
Heres some pics of the work should you have any interest .
Best , WAlter
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhq2qI&emid=sharshar&linkid=link5&cid=EMsharshar
WalterI totally missed seeing the second (=white) rope. That makes a big difference. It did make my back sore to think about shuffling around that slate, but by your login name, you're used to it.Gough
Gough ,
Most of the weight stayed up on the roof , stacked on the guards to the left of where I was working . Also I worked from the gutter most of the time so the deck was only supporting my weight for part of the time .
Actually that was pretty easy duty compared to some days .
Walter